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Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans
8

Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

(OP)
There are several ongoing threads about New Orleans in various forums, but I have not seen this issue discussed:

The flood water in the city of New Orleans is reported to be an unhealthy, disgusting mix of waste, chemicals, and who knows what else. The Corps of Engineers is quoted as saying that the city can be dewatered by the end of 2005, using the installed Wood screw pumping system. These pumps discharge into Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne; both lakes eventually drain into the Gulf of Mexico.

I wonder if existing environmental pollution laws are going to be waived or ignored? Have always heard that "Dilution is not the solution".

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

That's a good question.  I didn’t find anything on their website (below).  I think the USACE is the permit granting agency and perhaps they can waive the EIA as well as other requirements.  I also think the bigger problem is going to be the residual sludge cleanup.

http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

2
I just a while ago saw an interview of some COE spokesman on the Fox News Channel, and the person stated that they were getting power to some station or the other, and evaluating the others, mentining in the process that the water from such and such canal would be pumped into the lake.  Whereupon the infobabe asked him 'what about all the pollution, toxic stuff, etc., in the water' (not a verbatum quote) and he answered emphatically and with finality, "The water will be pumped into the lake."  That is very close to verbatum.


rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

SRE,

You raise a good point. However, as of this moment, I doubt that there is any good treatment option.

Jeff

Jeffrey T. Donville, PE
TTL Associates, Inc.
www.ttlassoc.com

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

The 35th biggest city in the world and the biggest shipping port in the US (which is the largest economy in the world) is under about 10 feet of water.  I doubt anyone is worried about compliance to environmental legislation.  I know I wasn't when I sent my donation in on Sunday.  Just get the water out of the peoples' homes, so we can see what happened to the 400+ NO municipal police officers who remain unaccounted for...not AWOL, not dead, we just plain don't know where they are.  If you need more money for bigger pumps, well, I don't have much, but I have a little...I'll give what I can.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

36 days to pump it out.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

While I sympathise with lha regarding the missing, particularly for their families, I think that the point is that we should be concerned that it is only those who died due to the hurricane (and possibly the Democrats' tales of mismanagement).  We do not need to pollute the Gulf of Mexico with chemicals that will make it into the sea life and onto our dinner plate causing further sickness or death.

Florida, for instance, has suffered enough with hurricanes over the last couple years.  Their resorts are still being repaired from Jeanne and Ivan.  Do they need oil slicks now? How about the Atlantic fishing industry, once the Gulf Stream takes the water out past the Carolinas to Ireland and Scotland?

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

What happens to storm water before New Orleans was flooded?
What happens to storm or flood water that falls on any city in th US?
Is this case of storm water in New Orleans different than on other occassions? Is it more polluted?

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Most storm water does not have dead animal and human bodies in it, nor runoff from refinery and chemical plants.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

My point is that the only issue here is that someone had to make the decision to pump the water out.  If New Orleans was simply a typical city that experienced a devastating flood, the flood waters would eventually recede on their own with whatever contamination that occurred (dead bodies, etc.).  Little attention seems to be given to possible pollution in those cases.   It seems as though we put ourselves in a moral paradox when we have a choice.  What is safer?  Leave New Orleans flooded or pump the water out?   No doubt it is better to pump the water out.   

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Quote (rbcoulter):

It seems as though we put ourselves in a moral paradox when we have a choice.  What is safer?  Leave New Orleans flooded or pump the water out?   No doubt it is better to pump the water out.

Firstly, you are making a short term judgement of risk.  Secondly, it is not better to pump out untreated contaminated waste water, it's just easier.

You have hit the nail on the head of why the rest of the world reviles the US's environmental record.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

You are correct. It is a short term judgement of risk.  I believe to wait would increase the risk of harm to the environment.  Why wait?  What benefit is there in waiting to pump the water?

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Eher exactly are these people going to treat this water,
perhaps someone can illuminate me.

Intrusion Prepakt. B.C. Canada
www.marineconcrete.com

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Advice from a former lifeguard/swimming instructor:

"Don't swim in the lake"

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

This seems to be a philosophical debate.  There are literally tens of thousands of acre-feet of water which would need treatment.  The sewer system and treatment facilities in the area are under water and out of commission.  It seems that there is no possible way that the water could be treated any time soon.  However, as previously mentioned, the sludge could be removed and placed in a hazwaste site or treated somehow and this would at least remove some of the pollutants.  If anybody could propose a REASONABLE method for treating this water, I would like to hear it.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

What are they going to treat for?

Before a judgement can be made that the water requires treatment, the pollutants must be identified and it must be determined that they exceed the limits.

The waste from the treatment plants has just been diluted by a large factor and may not exceed most of their limits.

How much oil or petroleum is in the water?  Do they have booms around the stations?  I don't know the answer to that so don't know if they are polluting the gulf with oil.

 I'm not sure dead bodies (human or animal) qualify as toxic pollution as they naturally exist in practically every stream in America and the Gulf of Mexico.

I guess my point is that unless we know for sure (not what the media feeds us) that the water is truly contaminated, how can we say what they need or don't need to do.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

I think that what we're all concerned about is that some kind of measure is made of what's in the water, what harm it can cause, and if there's a way to mitigate that.  There seems to be pressure for NOLA to be pumped out ASAP. The risks need to be assessed before the pumping begins, not after.

News accounts are that the water is a rancid stew.

Quote (from article):

As of late Tuesday, EPA officials said they had not declared New Orleans hazardous, but "due to the flooding conditions, we anticipate that sewage releases could be an issue," said EPA spokeswoman Beth Sweeney.

So far, she said, there have been reports of only minor chemical spills, but EPA officials are attempting to evaluate the damage from the air.

See also this, this and this.  The latter is a blog, so it's recommended only for the links.  

Much of that is still speculation; the environmental threat needs to be quantified before the USACE starts throwing around dates or durations for pumping NOLA dry.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

So, Franchesca, just what is your solution?  Beam this water up into outer space?  Or wish it would just vanish?

The sewage in it is biodegradable.  Megatons of sewage is dumped into the rivers and oceans by countries all around the world.  Time and sun and air will take care of it.

The earth itself puts more oil into the oceans than the NO LA area could ever think of doing.

Dead bodies in waterways has already been mentioned by semo

By the time any of this water gets to Ireland or Scotland (or Spain or Africa) it will be so diluted so that it will barely be discernable if at all.

We as engineers are supposed to be problem solvers, not hand wringers.

The water is polluted, and that can't be denied.  However, reasonable solutions to the problem would be appreciated.

What would you want done if your home was up to the rafters in water (of any purity)?

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

(OP)
Here is a possible compromise:

There was about one week from the beginning of large scale flooding until pumping started. A rough environmental investigation may have given an indication whether one of the two "lakes", Pontchartrain or Borgne, was better suited to handle the pollution. Then, depending on exactly how the pumps are configured, it may have been necessary to "trash" only one lake, instead of both.

Sure, pumping would certainly take longer, but that is what compromises are all about. Anyway cleanup of the sludge, that RGasEng has pointed out, will probably lag far behind the speed that water can be pumped.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

rmw,

My husband's best friend's house is up to the ceiling in water.  He has lost all but a few changes of clothes, his compter, and his car. He is in no great hurry to get back to NOLA; all he's concerned about is if he can get into a university so that his studies don't have to be on hold for an entire semester (or two). He's also quite sad that Lake Ponchartrain has only just been cleaned up, and now they're going to pollute it all over again. I've heard another NOLA resident say the same thing.

I guess it's a good thing that NOLA residents and the EPA don't share your feelings.

We owe it to our children and their children not to do "what we can get away with" to the environment; we owe it to them to do the best we can for the environment.

I don't have any solutions to the problem because that is not my field.  I believe that time should be taken to assess what can be done in mitigation before it all starts. If the city is to be pumped, however, at least we have control over the water's exit from the city and some kind of treatment, however crude, could be applied.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Re: getting into a university, mine has offered up some freebies for hurricane victims:

http://www.clarkson.edu/

The climate is a little different from NO.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

It can't be too bad as the EPA boat and crew were sampling the soup, not thick enough to be gumbo, with hand un-gloved and no masks and in an Al boat.

As for the stuff going into the Gulf I don't think it can compare to material that once came down the river or out of the lake a normal flow not too many years age. The Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain  at one time were sewers.  There have been numerous barge leaks that killed tremendous numbers of fish and wildlife that weren't mad public.
Having fished the Gulf for many years (60 +)  and seen houses, with chickens on the roof, 50 miles East of the river during floods I don't think this will have that much effect on things as whole.  Like someone has posted nature puts a lot natural oil continuously in the water.  Prior to drilling East of the river there were literally thousands of oil and gas seeps and light oil slicks along the 37 ridge that runs 100 miles to the east.  The gray mud that covers Waverley Mississippi is the top layer of bottom mud, this is real gumbo, out of the lake and delta.  This is where the shrimp live.  I hope this doesn't expose earlier layers where all the previous years toxins are still located.  This is how the bottom takes care of it's self overtime.  If the shrimp and squid don’t show up real quick it means you have uncovered some crap.

The biggest effect will be on the local fishery, like the oyster, shrimp, and crab. They will have time to recover as not too many boats survived.   Fish will thrive on the sewage aspect of the flow as the best place to catch trophy speckled trout in Pensacola Bay is at the sewage plant outfall terminus. My secret fishing hole, I used to win fishing rodeos with these trout.

It looks like a tremendous number of trees have died and NO or any city without the oaks is sad.  The fish and wildlife will quickly rebound while the oaks are gone.

One thing not mentioned is if they can get the water out quickly some of the older homes are repairable as they material of construction are heart pine and HRT  cyprus both will take the water OK.   One other thing is that the termites (Formosan) have floated to higher elevations in the houses.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Francesca,

I'm sad that Lake Ponchatrain will be trashed yet again, (some my favorite food comes [came] from the lake) but since the pumps in NO are designed to pump (rainwater runoff with whatever it brings) into the lake, and time doesn't allow us to move them and reconstruct them on the river (which would take this stuff directly to the Gulf,) we are faced with the reality that it will have to be pumped into the lake (Ponchatrain) or remain in place until it evaporates (or someone beams it up into outer space).

As far as how toxic it really is, I have two comments.  One is that I find UNCLESYD's observation about the unprotected hands during testing to be instructive, and secondly, I take with a real grain of salt anything the MSM says about environmental issues, given their agenda.

The designator beside your 'handle' says "environme" which I assumed was "environmental" truncated.  So, I thought this was your field.

I'd like to see someone who is expert in this field make some concrete suggestions as to what might be done to minimize the damage, since we all have to realize that the town has to be pumped out, and some damage will occur.

My town is full of evacuees (the new PC term for refugees) and I have become personally acquainted with a few especially when the non english speakers (spanish) need translators.  They want their town pumped out so that they can return to their lives and businesses.

The EPA doesn't allow my clients to chlorinate their effluents any more, so I don't know if chlorination (or bromination) of the pumpage would be in order or not.  It would seem to me that chlorination would take care of a lot of the sewage issues, with respect to fecal bacteria, that is.

Later on in the year, or next spring, when the river is up, the spillways that are there uprover of NO to divert Miss. River water into the lake if the NO levees are threatened could be opened to "flush" out the lake, but from former experience, too much of that can damage the lake and the aquaculture in other ways.

I don't know the answers either, but that is what these fora are for, for experts to offer solutions to real problems.  It is much better than hand wringing.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

The current estimate by FEMA to pump the water is 6 months - per last nights news report.  

One method to prevent some of the lighter hydrocarbons from being pumped would be to place a skimmer around the intake area for the pumps to prevent the floating oil and gas from being sucked into the intake.  

Given enough time, the impounded water will naturally clarify somewhat, as the treatment process for sewage requires heat, oxygen, mixing and sufficient time in the lagoon for the natural microbes to digest the organic matter. This will eliminate a large portion of the BOD and the COD.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

If the news this morning is correct the water might be the least of the problems. Caught two early  news reports stating that 2 oil storage tanks belonging to Bass oil are both leaking.  They didn't say where the tanks are located. One report had the combined capacity at 2 million gals and the other at 2 million gals each.
The EPA website has cut to black on the central region's reported oil spills.

One thing not noted by the news and authorities is that the sheen on water's surface is only a monomolecular layer and any volume of floating oil is being trapped on the surfaces of the houses, tress and cars.  Nearly all the bugs in the water are not bad unless you have a cut, scratch or ingest it.  Not good stuff anyway you look at it.   

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

I guess sort of "looking for any silver lining", maybe at least some oil sheen might keep the mosquitos and whatever they might carry down a little.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

It was said in a couple of reports that I heard that the Bass tanks were right at the mouth of the river.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

First I think it is grand that everyone is concerned about the potential hazards associated with pumping out NO into the lake.  The media has made sure that everyone is whipped to a proper froth regarding how toxic the water is.  The toxic water issue is also being used to expidite evacuations of the population in order to gain total control of the area.  

Of course there are health concerns with the flood water, but (and I can’t believe that I nee d to explain this in these forums) there is a huge difference between long term environmental pollution and health concerns.  It has already been said in this thread how the biological health concerns associated with the flood waters will naturally attenuate (fairly rapidly too I might add).  

As far as chemical concerns, I think many of you might be forgetting just what a huge volume of water they are dealing with and that there is some what of a dilution factor that should obviously be applied.  I seriously doubt that what is being pumped out of NO is as bad as what was pumped into the Mississippi for many years.  I would suspect that typical samples of typical stormwater runoff from NO would have higher concentrations of the “TOXINS” everyone is concerned about than in what is what is being pumped today.  Funny how the folks over on the wastewater treatment forum haven’t considered this to be some big problem, eh?  

Oh yes last night the media also reported that FEMA has revised the time to pump out NO is almost half of what they originally projected.

Although I commonly agree with criticism of the EPA, I think it might be a bit premature on this issue.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

ctmtwilliams' post seems to indicate that most posters have come out against pumping.  My quick tally seems to indicate the opposite is true.  Please correct me if anyone feels I have misinterpreted his or her position.  

Poster                Position (apparent)  
                                regarding pumping untreated

francesca (Civil/Environme)    Against
jimbo (Staff)            Against
boo1 (Mechanical)        In favor
cvg (Civil/Environme)        In favor
ctmtwilliams (Geotechnical)    In favor
jdonville (Geotechnical)    In favor
lha (Civil/Environme)        In favor
Prepakt1 (Coastal)        In favor
rbcoulter (Chemical)        In favor
rmw (Mechanical)        In favor
semo (Civil/Environme)        In favor
SlideRuleEra (Structural)    In favor
unclesyd (Materials)        In favor
IFRs (Petroleum)        Neutral/No opinion offered
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)    Neutral/No opinion offered
rconner (Civil/Environme)    Neutral/No opinion offered
RGasEng (Mechanical)        Neutral/No opinion offered

That's 2 against and 11 in favor.  4 others offered information, but I couldn't infer an opinion.  Even assuming these 4 are all against, that is still 6 against and 11 in favor of...so far...

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

(OP)
lha - You double counted me: once as "Poster" - Against
and later as SlideRuleEra - In favor. Actually I see the pumping as something that has to be done, but when I started this thread on September 3, could not find reports of any "official" consideration being given to the consequenses - that has changed since. IMHO the environmental outcome should be considered in what I expect to be a forthcoming National debate on what to do about rebuilding New Orleans (because of the multi-hundred billion dollar cost). If it is rebuild more or less "as-is", this whole thing will happen again - guaranteed.

Take it from a "survivor" of several major hurricanes including Hugo (Category 4) in 1989; we may even get another "dress rehearsal" for our next big one with Ophelia (Category 1) on Tuesday.

I like the idea of your summary - please count me as "In favor"

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

If you don't pump NO into the lake, you perhaps save the lake from insult, but then what do you do with the city?

Pump out the city now.

Clean the lake, again, later.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

This is on more debate I am shocked that we are having. Don't get me wrong, I think the debate is excellent and the topic is also graet. What shocks me is that in a city on the Gulf cost below sea level, no one prior to this has considered a proceedure for pumping contaminated waste from a major flood? Where have all those billions of planning dollars gone? Althouugh if would be tough to completely treat the water, some treatment options such asprimary and secondary should be considered. Settling and skimming oil would be a good start, and something like Chlorine would go along way. I dont know how much flushing action the area gets, but if we don't worry about how we pump out this mess, we do we worry about all the little small spills and releases that we spend great sums on remeadiating?
Finally, the pumping of New Orleans may need to be done slowly anyway. For if the levees are saturated and the city is pumped out too quickly, the levee can fail strucutally. I hope someone has adressed that.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

I only counted SlideRule once, In Favor, no change there...MikeH moves to In Favor...DRC1 enters the fray, with Neutral/No opinion offered.

The tally (I actually DON'T have too much time on my hands, but you would never know it):

Poster                         Position (apparent)  
                               regarding pumping untreated

francesca (Civil/Environme)    Against
jimbo (Staff)                  Against

boo1 (Mechanical)              In favor
cvg (Civil/Environme)          In favor
ctmtwilliams (Geotechnical)    In favor
jdonville (Geotechnical)       In favor
lha (Civil/Environme)          In favor
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)      In favor
Prepakt1 (Coastal)             In favor
rbcoulter (Chemical)           In favor
rmw (Mechanical)               In favor
semo (Civil/Environme)         In favor
SlideRuleEra (Structural)      In favor
unclesyd (Materials)           In favor

DRC1 (Civil/Environme)         Neutral/No opinion offered
IFRs (Petroleum)               Neutral/No opinion offered
rconner (Civil/Environme)      Neutral/No opinion offered
RGasEng (Mechanical)           Neutral/No opinion offered

That's 2 against and 12 in favor.  4 others offered information, but I couldn't infer an opinion.  Even assuming these 4 are all against, that is still 6 against and 12 in favor of...so far...

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

I’m in favor of pumping.  While I sympathize with those who would like to maintain a pristine environment, I think there is a need to recover and identify the dead as soon as possible.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

DRC1 asked m.o.l.: "... where did all the Federal (flood control) money go?"  I have heard (unsubstantiated) that much of it went to fund marinas and the gambling ships. If that is true, that makes it doubly sad and criminal.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

2
To all posters,

I live in Louisiana.  Last Thursday I went to New Orleans with both of my brothers to salvage what we could from my younger brother's house (4 blocks from 17th street canal).

It was quite amazing to watch the helo's carry large sandbags.  They were still throwing everything at this problem to simply see what sticks!

The streets in Kenner and Metarie were clear.  In fact I could not find the first puddle of water in Metarie.  We were not able to venture to East New Orleans to pickup my brother's in-laws belongings.  There house is still 10 feet underwater.

Now I am going to lay to rest alot of the stuff I have read in this forum.

I have invented, built and tested the World's most powerful UV light & ozone system.  One system can handle over 50,000 gpm of Opaque water!  The unit has shown 99.9% inactivation of all pathogens in opaque water with an oil & grease concentration of greater than 1%.

I am in touch with the NSF daily with regards to mobilizing the two systems I have.  However, the NSF has thrown its hand's in the air, because of a lack of cooperation amongst the different agencies.

Likewise, both the Louisiana DEQ & EPA region 6 are aware of my technologies.  I have used all of my resources to contact both agencies but to no avail.

Now, this is what I personally saw occuring on Airline highway.  When we were traveling east on Airline we had to detour prior to Causeway blvd.  Some type of construction going on in the middle of the east bound lane.

When we departed we exited unto airline directly from causeway.  The construction in the middle of the east bound land is a large pipeline.  It appears the pipeline will run from the 17th street canal all the way to the Spillway.  Thus, New Orleans may be drained into the spillway and LET nature take its course - the basin will polish the water!  That is simply my guess.

I have some great pictures if anyone is interested.  to contact me goto my website:  www.oxilume.com
Todd

  

Todd
www.oxilume.com

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

I don't know the answer to this question, but I suspect I know this -- most of us would probably pump out our basements just as quickly as possible if they became flooded.  In this case however the water quantities/pumping rates are apaprently huge (I think I heard that just one pump can pump 500,000 gpm, and there are lots of pumps now online/more coming!!), I suspect all this challenging the practicality if not cost effectiveness of any extensive treatment option.  

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Rconner,

I don't believe your flooded basement would have the coliform and e-coli counts that are present in New Orleans' flood water.

see:  http://www.epa.gov/katrina/testresults/index.html
Click on Biological testing

The major health issue is pumping the pathogen contaminated water into Lake Ponchatrain.  With the number of Chlor-Alkali plants on the Mississippi, it would have been quite easy to ship down a barge of chlorine and inject the chlorine while pumping.  I am extremely familar with Chlor-Alkali operations and chlorine.

As you will notice, there are only a few chemicals that exceed EPA limits:  click on Chemical Testing on EPA site.

So the disinfection byproducts, such as THMs, would be very low.

However, the main reason the city is being dewatered extremely fast is to prevent FIRES.  Fires and Flooding go hand in hand.  With the amount of petroleum products floating on the surface it is an accident waiting to happen.

Although Louisiana has ample fire fighting barges and tugs, the draft of these vessels limits them from going down a neighborhood street to battle a fire.  In addition, you will notice that many of the small boats had their outboard motors raised (tilted) for shallow water operation.  This is primarily due to the downed power lines lying beneath the surface of the water.

I battled two shipboard fires and a water surface fire.  When water is burning on top of water the only safe place to go is down!  It is a matter of how long you can hold your breath and swim underwater to a safe distance.

Above and beyond all else, SAFETY comes first.  Contaminated water is a health issue and takes a distance second to SAFETY.  You must first make the area SAFE to begin reconstruction.

And with that being said, until last year, AFOs and CAFOs were not regulated.  Thus, if you or your children fished, swam or played in water near a large animal feeding operation the bacteria counts were probably just as high in that stream as what is in the flood waters in New Orleans.

I do think there will be a problem with enhancing the already nutrient enriched GOM.  The "DEAD ZONE" will probably increase in size.

   
  

    

Todd
www.oxilume.com

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Todd,

I gave you another star.  What you have proposed is a real and doable solution to problems mentioned in this thread.  That is just what I had called for above.

I have no basis to accept nor deny your claims, but my judgement leads me to assume that if they weren't substantiable, you wouldn't be on this site making them to a bunch of technogeeks who would know better.

Now, how you get that into place and working for the general good, that is another matter.  Regarding the realistic possibilities of that, I might just have to become a hand wringer.

Does anybody know how to get hold of a producer at the Bill O'Reilly show at Fox News?  I think it will take something like that to bypass the gov't red tape at all levels to get your system implemented.

Best of luck.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Appears that oxilume has hit government bureaucracy RED  tape.  Its easier to just do nothing. Introducing any purification measures, omits the problem of pumping contaminated flood waters and adds time to the effort.  

It's not that I am for pumping these polluted waters to the lake, it's that there is a HUGE political pressure for the flood waters to be cleared allowing reconstruction to begin.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Someone check my math, please:

Oxilume has an inventory of exactly two ozonators, each of which can treat 50,000 gpm.

The design rated flow of ONE Wood screw pump is 247,500 gpm at 7 feet of lift.  And that's for the _small_ one.

If Oxilume could produce another ~498 ozonators in the next day or two, the proposal might be taken seriously.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

It would take only 5 ozonators to treat the flow from the one pump you mention, not 500.  However, your point is valid - as I mentioned previously, there are/were literally tens of thousands of acre-feet of water in the city that could be treated if somebody could come up with a reasonable method to do it.  However, I would be more concerned with the hydrocarbons and other pollutants than I would with the BOD.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Oxilume doesn't _have_ 5 ozonators.

NO does have more than one Wood pump; I was guessing they have a hundred, but I think the number is higher, and the 14 foot pumps would take ~ten ozonators each.

Because the Wood pump requires a flooded suction, they should tend to concentrate the hydrocarbons on the surface of the suction sumps.  In which case the skimmers that should be present in the area to deal with maritime oil spills could be effective, if anyone can find them and get them into the right place.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

News on stormwater pumps

Note: 3,000 cubic meters equals 792,516 gallons or 13,200 gpm

Dutch Water Experts and Water Pumps Arrive in United States
9/13/2005 8:59:00 AM

WASHINGTON, Sept. 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A team of five Dutch experts from the Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management (Rijkswaterstaat) and three mobile water pumps arrived in New Orleans to help pump the flood waters from the areas affected by Hurricane Katrina. The Dutch experts, working under the direction and in close cooperation with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, will prioritize the needs of the Corps of Engineers and place the pumps where needed. The Dutch experts will also offer assistance on fixing damaged pumps.

The experts and pumps are at the Army Corps of Engineers headquarters in New Orleans. The water pumps can expel 3,000 cubic meters of water an hour and each pump can run for 48 hours continuously on one tank of diesel fuel. Once the Army Corps of Engineers directs the Dutch experts to where the pumps are needed, the pumps can be up and running within three days. Because these pumps are mobile, they can be easily transported to different locations. Dutch water pumps have been used with great success in several countries including Suriname, Poland, and the Netherlands.

At present, the experts from the Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management and the pumps are scheduled to stay in the United States for at least 30 days, however this time could be extended or shortened based on the Army's needs.

The Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management is responsible for managing the water table in the Netherlands.  The offer of assistance from the Netherlands is due to a Memorandum of Agreement between the Directorate and the Army Corps of Engineers to share expertise in the field of water management, which was signed in May of 2004.


http://www.usnewswire.com/

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Sixteen more like that, and you'd have ... one 12 foot Wood pump equivalent.  Hell, plug 'em in anywhere, and make sure the experts pee outside the levee, too.  Every little bit helps.

No disrespect to the Dutch is intended.  I'm still trying to get my head around the flow that's required to keep the city merely humid in a normal rainstorm.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Compounded by the problems of high water table and poor perk.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

How do you say 'perk to the minus one?'  Seepage is more like it.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

It is rather interesting in looking at the recommendations from the CDC, especially for masks/respirators.  Several times over the weekend there were groups of soldiers using leaf blowers bare faced without any type of mask. Of all the civilian workers I've seen there are very few that are using any type of masks.

Mold is the big problem and to mediate the problem there is going to have to be some relaxation of a few rules to use things like Chlorine Dioxide, p-dichlorobenzene, and few others to alleviate the mold.  

The water:
Just read an article that has scientifically proven what has generally been known by mariners and fisherman for years that the waters from the Mississippi end up on the East Coast.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Mold in New Orleans!  OMG!  I never knew things could get moldy in the Gulf Coast.  LOL!!  I'm sure glad we have people who can raise our awareness to these problems that we may otherwise have never known to exist!

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

ctmtwilliams,
If you had read the post by SlideRuleEra and referenced the the link provided you should have caught my drift in that someone is going to have to makes decision, currently in short supply, about the use of forbidden chemicals on the molds.

By any chance are you a levee inspector?  

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

OK Uncle, it seems you missed my drift.  The point I was making is that mold issues are common place in NO.  Yes, I read the other post and read through much of the EPA material.  In fact, the people I was referring to was the EPA, not you, so try not to take things so personal and please refrain from making personal attacks.

I see no reason to back off of existing regulations which were created for the protection of the public.  The people of NO will be exposed to enough different hazards, there is no reason to add additional toxic chemicals to the mix.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

there is no way to treat any of these buildings (for mold) until they are entirely dry - a long time in the future.  And the reality is that most wood frames will need to be just torn down and hauled to the landfill.  Probably, only the steel and concrete structures can be saved and cleaned.  Another good question, where is the landfill that can take all this debris?  Will they need to site and permit a new one?

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

ctmtwilliams,
Sorry about that,  my fault,  a little on edge from fighting with COE again about my roof damage incurred after IVAN perpetrated by their contractor.  

cvg,
We have had very good success using dichlorobenzene to eradicate mold in yachts that been sunk and raised.  We seal them up with a couple pounds of chemical and let set for a week. The results are excellent.  We then revarnish and paint again with excellent results.  

One thing about some of the older houses (shotgun) is they are constructed from heart pine and cypress with tongue and groove paneling and siding. . These woods clean up very nicely after being submerged.   The paint on a lot os the older houses has a lead based pigments, good for prevent mold and mildew bad for everything else.  I’ll agree that houses in the lower areas need to be carefully evaluated.   Bringing everything above sea level presents a very big problem to determine the cutoff point 2,4,6...12 feet
and how far do you a carry this around the country.  

The big patched area on 17th street cannel sure looks shaky and is leaking.  They had better keep the pumps in place.  

Take a look at the first page of pictures especially the two small tank farms.

http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Leaf blowers are another scourge of modern civilization.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Quote (cvg):

Another good question, where is the landfill that can take all this debris?  Will they need to site and permit a new one?

We were talking about this in class today.  (Unfortunately I didn't write down the numbers.)  Apparently the EPA has suspended all regulations in the Gulf Coast area during the clean-up.  They're burning the debris, not putting it into a land-fill.  From this Corps of Engineers site:

Quote:

FEMA estimates that there are currently about 18 to 20 million cubic yards of debris in the hurricane impacted area of Mississippi. This equates to 200 football fields piled 50 feet high.

(Note that that's only Mississippi.)

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Why couldn't they use all this debris to bring the elevation of NO up to above sea level?

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Just two years after Camille hit below NO LA, I was a young Field Service Eng'r for a major turbine OEM, and as such, I had to go to a lot of rigs in the marsh near Buras and Venice LA where Camille had struck to do service and overhauls.  The craft people were locals, and Camille was still fresh on their mind, and a lot of the damage was still evident.  (There was no FEMA to clean up in those days.)

There were lots of stories, as there will be with Katrina and now Rita, but the one I have never forgotten was about a fellow who had sought refuge in the tallest and strongest structure in the area which was the movie theater constructed mostly of concrete.

He, in order to get higher than the storm surge and flooding got all the way up into the projection booth and rode out the storm there still about waist deep.

He survived, and that was the good news.  The bad news was that he shared that booth with hundreds of snakes of all kinds, including poisonous, also driven to the highest place.

He was never bitten, no not one time, but the 2-3 days he spent up there with all the snakes before he was rescued drove him out of his mind, and he was never right again.

This was a hear-say story, as I did not meet the person myself, but I have always believed in the sincerity of the teller of the tale.

Hurricanes do strange things.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

The levees just breached again in NO.  I guess we get to discuss this thread all over again.

I am sorry for the folks in NO who have more of this to endure.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Should I start a new thread to point out that we (engineers) were bilked again by bogus information reported in the MSM?

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005606.php

The date for the item I refer to is Oct. 13.

Unclesyd, looks like your eagle eye nailed it way early in this thread.

rmw

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

Looking back at Unclesyd's post...
According to an acquaintance of mine who was out there a couple days after the break, the soup *was* thick enough to be gumbo.  

Not that that says anything about the toxicity of the ingredients.

Hg

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RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

It was reported this morning on local (New Orleans) news that the Greater New Orleans area is estimated to produce 21 million tons of debris in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.  This is 14 times greater than debris produced from the World Trade Center, and more waste than any US city produce in a year.

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

rmw makes an interesting point regarding poor reporting in the news media and then makes the same mistake himself.

Here is a critical paragraph left out:

"Caution should be exercised when extrapolating the results presented here to other flooded parishes and districts within New Orleans because of differences in land use in these and other areas. These data represent water quality conditions in these neighborhoods between 5 and 9 days after the inundation from the flood, but prior to significant pumping of the floodwater back into Lake Pontchartrain. Importantly, these areas represent locations where many first-responders and residents were exposed to floodwaters. Although some conclusions can be drawn about the quality of the floodwater based on this data set, more detailed human exposure, waste load allocation, and ecological risk assessment calculations for Lake Pontchartrain should be conducted prior to reaching ultimate conclusions regarding the environmental impacts of Hurricane Katrina."

For the full report:
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/esthag/asap/html/es0518631.html

RE: Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans

While I don't know anything of the specific pros and cons of this concept, I wonder if in some areas in the future (or present?), maybe it will be possible to save some money and precious pumping energy/resources, as well as some construction and maintenance of impermeable? "levees" (and some of the ensuing arguments such as in this thread?), by instead constructing buildings that float [see  http://www.realtor.org/rmodaily.nsf/pages/News2005102003]!!!
[Maybe a sort of high-tech "Venice or "Waterworld"?]

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