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Issue with a co-worker
3

Issue with a co-worker

Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
My company is in the process of migrating from 2D CAD to 3D CAD. As such, we have a number of drafters that are, for the most part working on legacy drawings. All of our new work is using the 3D. As such we are trying to transition our older designers over to using 3D. Some are more resistant than other. One in particular, seemed to embrace this "new" technology earlier that some of the others, and has now found his way onto a new product team. He however, has not gotten to the point of being productive beyond making detail drawings. He is detailing the parts that I am designing, and therefor I am responsible for signing off on his work.

Now I am sensitive to the fact that I am 20+ years younger than my co-worker that is now working for me. I try and give him room to figure things out, and when I talk to him I try and do so in a manner that is not going to hurt his pride or ego. I try and make suggestions more than make demands, etc etc etc. This person refuses to give me the same consiteration. He uses every chance he gets to belittle me in front of the other drafters in our drafting room. I have asked him to make his drawing a certain way, and he love to tell me, loudly, how I am doing it WRONG! However, when I go to our DRM and actually look, HE is the one doing the wrong thing. PLUS, I am asking him to do things TO OUR CUSTOMERS REQUIREMETS and request. I have tried explaining both of these things to him in a very quiet and polite manner. This was just responded to by a very loud and defiant, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. I am now at my witts end. None of the other engineers here will work with him in any sort of intimate manner. I am (was) the only one.

On top of this, the Engineer Manager "freaked out" yesterday, that he was NOT working on my project, but on one of the lower priority legacy projects. This, honestly was because I had no drawings to give him because I was in the midst of a design (in 3D) for the next step in my project. I tried explaining the situation (both the attitude and actual work) to my boss, but this guy has convinced our boss that we (all 5 engineers here) have bad attitudes toward him, and because of that we never give him any work.

Well I now know why others give him NO work, but I must, OR ELSE.

How do I talk to this guy and get him to do the things that I need him to do, with his attitude about me? Any ideas would be much appriciated.  

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

This may or may not be the solution for your specific case.  I have once handled a similar situation.

We had an experienced draftsman, who used to make drawings on the drawing board - that's right - manual and could never work on AutoCAD and never wanted to.  He was more than a draftsman and could actually design as well - in double quick time.  His outputs were excellent, but he was not abreast with technology and hence we had trouble utilising him.  However, the management wanted him to continue and utilise his knowledge.  We used his services in churning out design drawings and used a raw draftsman with little or very little knowledge in the subject to convert these drawings into AutoCAD - yes, it meant duplication of work, but in the process the new guy started learning and the old guy was happy too in imparting his knowledge.  Lot of pep talk was required to be done to arrive at this solution.  After a period of time, we replaced the AutoCAD draftsman with another new guy and trained him too.  

Not sure whether you can think something in these lines.

HVAC68

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Sounds hard. I don't see a magical solution.
Don't kneel down even further in the mud because you're 20 years younger. Keep working with this guy, ignore or correct his misbehavior as you fee like, keep in mind what your objectives are. Be more stubborn than he is. Good luck!

RE: Issue with a co-worker

PS don't bother to try to make him realise that what he's doing is wrong. Waste of time.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Would recommend that you stop being so wishy washy. Whatever your age either this guy respects you as a colleague or he doesn't. At the moment he doesn't because you're playing all softly softly.

Also, 90% of your communication with this guy should be in writing from here on in, or written down immediately afterwards. If he's going to the boss then you need to be able to back yourself up to the hilt when the boss comes to you.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Sounds like this person has an inferiority complex, and is trying to take control of the situation.  He is.  Whenever he goes off on one of his rants, rephase what he just said in the manner is which it was recieved.  For example....

Good employee:  Please draft the following part per these instructions.

Aggressive employee:  NO!  I WON'T DO IT THAT WAY, YOU'RE WRONG!

Good employee:  Are you saying that you refuse to follow standard, company approved operating procedures?  Why?

RE: Issue with a co-worker

2
(OP)
Well this morning the guy started YELLING AT ME, because I gave him a package of Redlines to do... They were to correct something that I had done wrong before, because I NEED him to continue WORKING on my PROJECT.... LOUDLY criticizing my DRAWING in front of everyone. I KNOW WHAT I HAD DONE WAS WRONG (ie. not part of the standard) AND WAS TRYING TO CORRECT IT.

I mean JESUS CHRIST....

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
hopeing to smooth this out I just sent this to him.

Quote:


Dear unnamed employee,

I am currently under a large amount of pressure to get out a "preliminary" version of the drawing that you are working on right now. I understand that it may have some issues at this time; but I just need to get them a copy. At that time, we can work on finishing the drawing / fixing the errors. I understand that this may be doing a little extra work, but any help you could give me would be very much appreciated.

Thank you,

me

I hope this will get him on borard for the time being. I BCC'd my boss, and am now going to talk with him about this again. I know this is not resloving the problem. More like brushing it under the rug.

Next time we'll try sometihing a little more direct.

BTW Melone, I tried what you were saying this morning, but it didn't really work very well.

I CAN SEE THAT THIS WILL BE AN ONGOING PROBLEM. ANY MORE ADVICE WILL BE APPRICIATED

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

You are being WAY too nice.

First, you have to get the jackass into a closed room, just the two of you.

Say that you are trying to learn from his experience and respect his wisdom.

Then demand at least the courtesy he would show to a complete stranger; yelling at anyone in public is rude, and in the workplace, it's unprofessional.  <This may be more effective if you yell it, and use very rude words.>

Tell him that you will accept his input and listen to his opinion, but that you are ultimately responsible for his work, and that once you have discussed any given issue and made a decision, you expect him to carry out your instructions.

Tell him that you can and do screw up, and when you do, you expect him to politely and privately call it to your attention, and to help you correct your errors.

Tell him that when he screws up, that you will politely and privately call it to his attention, and help him correct his errors.

Reach out and touch his upper arm, and think him for his support and understanding.  <This step is important; read "Frogs Into Princes".>

All of this stuff works better if you really mean it.  
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Issue with a co-worker

wes:
Your own solution is the best one so far, IMHO.

It is certainly the one which is most likely (although not guaranteed) to solve the problem long-term.  You did not 'sweep it under the rug', you rose above the situation.  If your boss is worthwhile, he/she will realize that...although I would cut out bcc'ing.  I always hate that - either cc or don't copy at all, let everyone see who can see.

You can always resort to agressive techniques if your way fails, but then you are more likely to have superiors behind you, if they can see an effort at mature, constructive resolution was attempted.

You've shown yourself to be a leader in the making, as this is how a good leader tries to handle insubordination.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Thanks Steve,

Well, here is the "after lunch" perspective.

The drafter did not incoporate the redlines that I gave him to do. He fixed some of the problems on the first page (of 14) and nothing else. I was shocked at first; sometimes the best thing to do is to go to lunch... so I did.

I explained the situation to my boss, and shown him the redlines. Currently, our most senior structural engineer, is doing the redlines that this drafter should have done... a job well "below him" but is doing it happily, to lend a hand... (and to learn the new software).

 

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

I am currently under a large amount of pressure to get out a "preliminary" version of the drawing that you are working on right now. I understand that it may have some issues at this time; but I just need to get them a copy. At that time, we can work on finishing the drawing / fixing the errors. I understand that this may be doing a little extra work, but any help you could give me would be very much appreciated.


This guy is being PAID to help you. He is being PAID to do this work. It is nice to be polite and ask someone nicely but that hasn't worked.
Stop being so non-confrontational and wishy washy and STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. Tell him what to do.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Agree wiht bandraoi.
I guess it must be a lot of fun to be an @$$hole and see everybody around you going through painstaking efforts to stay polite, understanding and non-confronting, trying to make you do what you're paid to do.
Just be more stubborn than he is and you'll get what you what in the end.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

The fact of the matter remains this person will not willingly submit to what you do.

I like the idea of using an email to illustrate the issue to your superior. However if you were given responsibility over this individual you should handle him yourself, use the email and his reply (whether it be his actions or an email from him) as evidence to support your confrontation with him.
This way you can confront him and his escape route (running to YOUR superior) is cut off. If you let it go and if he hassles YOUR boss too much, your boss is going to wonder whether or not YOU can handle the responsibility.

In conclusion, try to be non-confrontational at first and persuade him to do his work, understand his situation etc. (this has obviously failed). Next frame the issue in writing to the employee and copy your superior (to cover yourself).
Finally use confrontation, stuborness etc to make him do his job, if he still refuses write him up for insubordination or failing that, gradually make his workload less meaningful and more insignificant, until he can be released from his position.

The last step sounds cruel, but thats life.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Thanks, guys.

My attempt at "non-confrontation" failed. I had to try it thought; as I think it is the first step (<-- agree with Ziggi).

I tried confronting him, and he blatently disregarded my direction. And I have it on paper. I have shown this to my boss (as well a gotten the support of the rest of the engineering department).

Quote:

gradually make his workload less meaningful and more insignificant,
As of this morning, he has NO projects, and none of us can figure out what he will do today (or ever again) for us. Maybe the electrical engineers will take him on, but... that is another room...  

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Wouldn't it be a riot if "the co-worker" were to stumble on this site?

You (and all the other eng's) DO have someone of his abilities to do your CADD work, right?

I often feel like not using some of our CADD people, then I sit back and imagine doing it all myself...

Good luck

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
HAD I DONE IT MYSELF it would have been done on Tuesday. As it was, I ended up finishing the drawing last night at 8:30pm anyway.

Quote:

I often feel like not using some of our CADD people, then I sit back and imagine doing it all myself...

I agree with you that it is a lot of work to produce a good drawing, and I have the upmost respect for people who can and do make beautiful looking drawings. I don't! I make a decent drawing.

But after thinking about it for a while... I'm not sure if it really is MORE work to do it myself.

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

That's irrelevant.  As a manager or team leader, YOU are being paid to do other things that your subordinates either can't or won't.  

The fact that you can do the work yourself is irrelevant and detrimental to the overall team performance, because doing the work yourself means that the stuff that you are supposed to be doing doesn't get done.  Additionally, if you are taking personal time to do it, you are doing your family a disservice.

TTFN



RE: Issue with a co-worker

Hey Wes,
Good to hear that it worked out, I agree with you when it comes to respecting the work that the skilled labor does. I've got two guys under me, both are very skilled at what they do and I defer to them in most cases due to their experience or I consult them regarding matters which concern their area of expertise. Plus the work they do cannot be learnt in a book and I have the utmost respect for their labor.
However they are both at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to reciprocation of respect for the job I am doing.
Both are about the same age (about 20 years older than me) however one treats me with respect since I treat him with respect, as for the other, he feigns respect and constantly lies to me, to take advantage of my lack of industry knowledge. I handled this in the way I suggested to you but I cannot lower his workload due to the fact that he is a specialist (we need him), unlike your problem which can easily be replaced. I've noticed that stubborness seems to work as does a healthy amount of skepticism.
I do have to say that working with the guy has given me plenty of practice at dealing with difficult people.

As for the other person I reward what he does by telling management how good he is at his work and generally looking out for his well being.

Any other suggestions about dealing with the difficult one would be appreciated. And am I doing enough for the helpful one?  

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
IRstuff,

I wish it was the case that this person would just "do" the work required of him per the terms of his employment. I, of course, DO have other things that I need to do, and I do NOT want to be making drawings at this time, because I do not have the time.

I don't want to stay at my office for 12 hours to get things done, but I needed to get the drawing on the shop floor yesterday morning to keep with our schedule (which is ver tight - and me making drawings makes it even tighter), and when this person, through attitude and acknoledgement refused to do the work that I asked of him, the only thing I can do is to make MY management aware of the problem and figure out any work-around that I could in order to GET THE JOB DONE! The only "workaround" that was available yesterday was the sweat of my labor.

-----

ziggi

Quote:

unlike your problem which can easily be replaced.

unfortunately our design staff is not easily replaced. Drafters/Designers in the Aerospace industry are highly skilled persons that do a very specialized job. Unfortunately one bad apple will ruin the bunch.

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Wes,
I was under the impression that drafters are easy to find. CAD isn't all that hard to do well, most any kid fresh out of college can CAD. However if he was a designer that might be a different story.
I base this on the manufacturing industry, aerospace might be different.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Ziggi,

You can find many things on this forum regarding Drafters & Designers.... and many people have opinions up the wazoo. I don't really want to get into it in this thread.

However I do want to say that a the idea of a person being able to "walk in off the streets and CAD" is one of misperception. Competent Drafters / Designer (sometimes used interchangeabley) are necessary for new product development in a couple of ways. They are another set of eyes on the drawing. They often become the first line of defense between engineering and manufacturing. An experienced drafter has a deep understanding of what the shop needs to get the parts made, assembled and installed. An experienced drafter frees the engineering designer up from getting caught up in the nitty gritty details of fastener selection, hole location, bend radii on sheet metal, tolerancing, etc etc etc.

Someone just out of high school might be able to put lines on paper, but an experienced drafter makes the engineering office run smoothly. If you've never worked with someone who is a experienced draftsman, you are truely missing out.

Like in the military people have really high opinions of officers... leading the great charges.. but it's really the "sargents" that make it all happen so the officers look good.

I think that is why this is such a disheartening situation, because I think our drafting room is filled with wonderful men (and 1 woman) who do great and professional work. EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL.

Its too bad really.

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Who has the fire/hire authority?  You?  

Whoever has the authority needs to have a "Come to J..." meeting with the gentleman and explain that his ass is grass if he continues to be disruptive and uncooperative.

TTFN



RE: Issue with a co-worker

I agree!

It doesn't even have to be nasty.  My boss's approach to this kind of thing (not aimed at me--yet) is, "Here's what we need to accomplish here.  Here is what you need to do to be part of that.  If you don't want to be part of that, we'll be perfectly happy to give you glowing recommendations when you look for another job."

The last guy to get that speech is reportedly behaving much better.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Crux of it is that you have a lazy guy here who is intent on doing as little as possible as often as possible. And he is runnign you down - the power balance is in his favour as you seem not to be doing anything effective to address this issue.

First have you or are you doing anything that would go against you - know your job and do it well - I noted that yuo mentioned that you have some rework to do on a drawing. He may resent pulling you out the mire. But that would be his opinion and he has to see this or be made see it - when you are a team you all evolve and this is what tw is about - he seems to want to flag up the negativity and that is one thing that you need to grip about and you need to take control, dont put up with him running you down in public - if he does it again have a quick look about and see what the others are doing then RETALIATE BIG TIME. The GET IN THE F OFFICE NOW !!!! Rant and really let rip , let him know that youn have had enough and that you want this to stop, if it wont stop then there will be no other option availiable other than to move him on, is he with the team or is he not ? If Not then cherrio bud.

Make sure that you have exhasuted all avenues first talk to your boss if you can and talk to HR - ensure that all know about this issue but dont make it sould like you are moaning or winging - no body likes a winger, This type of attitude from him is bordering on the passive aggressive mentality and can run you down if you dont control it.

Rugged

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Document

Document

Document

Document everything. Places, dates actions people present everything.

Make notes of work assigned to this individual, make notes of counseling sessions, and get some help from your HR department on the necessary process to be followed.

If you do not religiously follow all the necessary steps it can blow up in your face when you are fighting the unjust dismissal lawsuit because one of two things have to happen The guy will have to get with the program or be fired. The only other alternative is that it’s you taking a walk down the road because your department is not performing.

Use a carrot and stick approach. Offer him the necessary training to make the adjustment to the new technology and whatever on job training that you can offer. Make it very clear that you are serious and that his continued refusal to get with the program can have dire consequences for his future employment.

NEVER GET MAD AND SHOUT BACK. If he starts shouting, lower your voice and be very reasonable. If necessary quietly state that you understand why he is upset and that you will continue the discussion later. When you continue the discussion, start off giving him a letter of censure advising that his behavior was unacceptable. Get him to sign acknowledging receipt of the letter. If he refuses to sign then present it to him in front of a witness, preferably from the HR department and get them to sign as a witness that he was censured for unacceptable behavior and that he was made aware of the unacceptable behavior.

Did I mention that you will have to document everything, work assignments, work that he is actually doing, his response to any and all directions?

If nothing else a pile of documentation will show him that you are serious and that you mean business. After the file gets about a half inch thick, make a summary and give him a copy of the entire file. Explain that there is a problem and that you are determined to make it his problem, not the company’s problem and not your problem.

Once again offer help and tell him that if his job performance does not improve that you will be taking formal steps to terminate his employment.

Document that meeting as well and have him once again sign a letter acknowledging that he has been put on notice.

Keep it professional and never let it get personal.

Did I mention document everything? I know that it can be very time consuming to do so but it is an essential part of the process.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Rick,

Thanks. I learned that one the hard way a few years back. I now doccument rigoursly (in all aspects of my life). Thats what you get when you've been suid 3 times.

I unfortunately have no ability to offer any training, other than from me on the weekends. I have offered this to anyone who wants it on 5 occasions - (especially since I have taught a course on this particular software at a local college).

I have done all I can do. At this point it is out of my hands.

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Wes sure is getting lots of ideas for dealing with a subordinate. But the question dealt with a coworker. Anyone care to redraft their response?

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Sorry me got a little side tracked thought it was a subordinate.

A co-worker is a tad harder but as RDK said document and then document some more, also if as it can be seen there is an issue then there is the course of bullying at work and work place ethics, I know that I hate the general parasitic nature of HR but in this instance you should make full use of the availiable options - alos if you are a union shop then there could be recourse there as you could work through these issues and get someone on your side - its about sides and you need to make that clear - you need to be on the right side and get this guy to task and if not then ensure that there is enough evidence there to assist the company in its efforts to let him go.

Rugged

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
To clear this up guys. Both answers are correct. He is a co-worker, and in this situation, a subbordinate. We are actually under a different management structure, so I can not directly influence his "career" however, he can influence mine, by not doing what I need.

Anyway, to hell with him.. I'm moving to TEXAS!

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

There goes the neighborhood!

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Welcome Wes!  Lots of aerospace work down here.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Thanks Ewh,

My wife has gotten a job, thats why we are moving. I however my be pushin palms for a while. Got a couple of hits for, "can you start tomorrow" contract work. But I'm still working out here until the 15th.  

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
15th of october

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Wes,
What part of Texas?

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Ewh,

She's working at some bigwig Architecture firm in Dowtown Dallas, but we are looking at moving outside the city... as we have some livestock... so we are looking SW of Dallas, so I could look in Dallas & Ft. Worth.

I know there is some work in Waco... think that's a long commute though... (unless we move 1/2 way)....

She has an old high school frind that works at Bell Helos, that has passed around my res a bit (I think). My co. does VIP mods, and I know there is a bit of that going on there.

I woudn't mind doing somthing else for a while either. Maybe hooking up with a consultant, or whatever. I used to do plastics (consumer product), but I love transportation systems....

Anyway... what part of Texas are you in... I'm looking for some (new) friends. (My wife has a bunch already cause she grew up there)

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

I'm down in San Antonio, but the Dallas/Ft Worth area is better as far as aerospace jobs.  We do have some companies down here doing aircraft mods.  Good luck!  I'm sure that you will find something suitable.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Your co-worker likely has some personal issues that you may not be aware of. I realize that this may fly in the face of everything that has been suggested here, but I would probably tell him one Friday afternoon you were going to stop at a nearby watering hole after work and wondered if he would like to get a beer with you. I'm not suggesting that you attempt to become friends with him, but it would give you an opportunity to sit with him one on one in a non-work environment. And just let him talk about anything. Listen to him. Just listen. You may be surprised by what he tells you. And his attitude may improve substantially as a result.

Maui

Constants aren't; variables won't.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Ewh,

San Antonio is where we want to be (actually by either Uvalde or Kerville/Bourne)... we've been trying to get work there but it seems that the D/FW market has more. It's just been hard to gt interviews from California. No one thought we were serious about going to TX.

Anyway seems she got the first job offer. So we're going to Dallas (unless I get one in the next few days that offers up more $$) -  

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Maui,

I had invited him to lunch (on 3 occasions - before and during this fiasco), and he declined. He may go for a beer after work, but I cannot (you know), plus he his usually gone long before I finish my day.

Wes C.

RE: Issue with a co-worker

Wes,

I know that a company by the name of M7 Aerospace (formerly Fairchild) has recently (announced today in the business section of the local paper) been granted approval to convert ATR 72 turboprops into cargo planes for FedEx.  They are also converting smaller ATR 42 turboprops into cargo planes  This may be a good opportunity to get in there.  It is located at the San Antonio airport.

I work in Boerne, and it is a very pleasant place to be.

Eric

RE: Issue with a co-worker

(OP)
Thanks for the tip Eric... My wife's family owns a ranch out in Real County, and we come through Boerne on the way out there. It is a really nice place. I love it there... I am jealous!

Wes C.

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