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Management or Leadership
2

Management or Leadership

Management or Leadership

(OP)
Whats is the difference between Management and Leadership & do we need both?

I think they are very different management is great at handling day to day problems. Things like budgets, project schedules etc when things are running on the rails.

When things go seriously wrong, as in the south of the USA at present, management is of little use. It is the people who can provide the Leadership that make things happen.

You can teach managment but leaders are born - discuss.

RE: Management or Leadership

Leadership can be taught as well....at least according to the multimillion dollar per year leadership training industry.

Oh, and the military teaches leadership as well.....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Management or Leadership

Things are managed.  People are lead.

My main complaint about leadership & management: cheerleading <> leadership!

RE: Management or Leadership

Athletics develops leaders.

The best leaders were competitive in athletics and books when growing up.

RE: Management or Leadership

At a previous place that I worked, one of the engineers was an exceptional leader. Much different than the management, who had a very tearse relationship with him. He was just another "grunt" like me, but whenever a project got behind, he could be counted on to step in and motivate the team to move on the project. Of course, this generally upset the "project manager." Especially when the company president would give this person responsibilites regarding "leading teams" but would leave the nitty gritty operations management to the un-inspiring manager (who was very good at getting things done within the corporate bureacuracy).

After the company president left, he took the "leader" with him. About 4 months after that our division was basically defunct.

A couple of important things to note here:

1. Often it is said that a project failed due to lack of "leadership." Rarely is it said that it is due to lack of "management." (it does happen occasionally)

2. Things often fail, however, due to to many leaders put on a project.

moral: leaders and managers are important, but great leaders seem to be harder to find than good manager; but, mabye that is a good thing.

Wes C.

RE: Management or Leadership

The West Point as well as many ROTC programs provide leadership training.  Though there are exceptions, many come out of the program as better "leaders" than they were.

Hooah!

RE: Management or Leadership

Quote

"Things often fail, however, due to to many leaders put on a project."

Unquote.

If there are too many leaders in a project, then you need a big leader to the lead the leaders !!!

HVAC68

RE: Management or Leadership

Leadership is about getting people to work together as a team, work harder and often to do things they don't want to. It's also about being able to persuade people to see things differently and to go with change instead of fighting it.
It's about getting people to go to hell, in such a way that they enjoy the experience.

RE: Management or Leadership

"Athletics develops leaders.

The best leaders were competitive in athletics and books when growing up."

Are you serious? How can you be competitive in books?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Management or Leadership

Some time ago an important customer came to visit us. The engineer happened to be sick that day. The guest was at the reception waiting to see what would happen. Our general manager noticed, realised the problem, did not hesitate a second but welcomed the guy with all due respect and hospitality and showed him around for at least an hour until somebody was available who could "really" take care of the man. The guy was very honoured and had not even noticed he had been put on "hold".

That is what I call leadership. (Somebody else might say the manager should have been doing "management things" (Dilbert) instead of wasting an hour of his precious time.)

RE: Management or Leadership

The best leaders emerging from my high school were involved in forensics, debate, business (FBLA, JA), and community service.  Athletics was incidental.

RE: Management or Leadership

Greg -

Haven't you heard of Mathcounts, International Land Pasture and Range Judging, or even spelling bee's.

I was lucky, I went to a small school and they taught us to compete in everything.  We beat up on the big schools annually in baseball, mathcounts, and won the International Land Pasture and Range judging contest several times.  Those that learned to be successful in those avenues are todays leaders in business.  There are other forms of competition as well that we didn't have access to.

RE: Management or Leadership

(OP)
Slugger

Can you tell a poor Brit what a "International Land Pasture and Range judging contest" is.

RE: Management or Leadership

Quote:

The best leaders emerging from my high school were involved in forensics, debate, business (FBLA, JA), and community service.

Dont forget FFA, and boy/grilscouts...

Wes C.

RE: Management or Leadership

"...they taught us to compete in everything.  We beat up on the big schools annually..."

Why is it always about competing and winning?  Why not develop your leadership skills by learning to bring people together and developing consensus?    

RE: Management or Leadership

Competition, like war, can bring out the best and worst in human nature.

To compete and win as a team, a team must have competent leadership.  A mob of talented but unorganized players won't cut it.

On an individual basis, driving to win ideally drives one to dig deep into his self and bring out his absolute best ("bring it").  This is much more than flogging oneself physically.  It is learning what one is capable of, and accepting nothing short of one's own best from oneself.

Personally, I can say that having competed and won, tried by fire, has given me the confidence to do more.

RE: Management or Leadership

Leaders are at the front of an army.

Managers are at the back.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Management or Leadership

Oh go on, please explain how winning a spelling bee competition makes you a better leader, as opposed to say running a week long hiking expedition.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Management or Leadership

Quote:

explain how winning a spelling bee competition makes you a better leader

Greg,

I think we've lost the point... it's not leadership we are now talking about, it's competition...

Spelling bee's can make us more competetive. Which is the OPPOSITE of leadership IMHO. Leadership is the art of bringing people together for a common purpose. Competition is the art of tearing them apart: Divide and Conquer.

TEAM Athletics, even though it is competition, is about bringing people together for a common purpose... that being winning the game. Competition for competition's sake is an individual sport...

Individual - the opposite of Team... as in THERE IS NO "I" IN "TEAM".... does nothing to develop leadership. Many many athletics demonstrate this... Wrestling, Tennis, Golf...

Anyway, enough out of me... it's dinner time....

Wes C.

RE: Management or Leadership

It strikes me that what's really missing with Hurricane Katrina is both management and leadership.

The leaders said to evacuate the city but a lack of management meant that there was no government effort to evacuate those without their own transportation. To me that's incredible.

A good leader at that point might have made an appeal to the ground troops - the people with their own cars - to make sure they travelled only with a full car.

The rescue operation seems to have been hampered so far by a shocking lack of management or leadership. The simple necessary decisions were not made or carried out.

RE: Management or Leadership

Competition prepares leaders to meet deadlines and goals whether it is for a team or individual.  

Leaders prepare.  Leaders drag other to follow if they need to.  Leaders push others if they need to.

Managers delegate.

An effective Leader/Manager delegates tasks to others, and leads them by making sure they make the goals.

Those that haven't competed in anything are ill prepared to lead, because they have never pushed themselves to be ready for anything.

In order to complete Engineering school, we have all cometeted whether you realize it or not.  Many instructors have given impossible projects with impossible deadlines to meet.  Some of us failed, some of us passed, but we all probably learned what it took to lead and manage our projects.

RE: Management or Leadership

Management is all about making decisions. We have analytical management tools like PERT and others to help us mage decisions. Anyone can be a manager; all it takes is the right tools to do so. ( And the guts to know when to stop analyzing and make the decision.)

Leadership is simply the art of getting people to do what you want them to do.  Not everyone can be a leader.

Leadership can come from several sources. There is authority leadership which is why you stop when the cop puts his flashing lights on. You do what they want because they have some power or authority to make you do so.

There is charismatic leadership. Basically the individual is so likable that you do what they want because you want to please them. Religious leaders and aspiring politicians are examples.

There is expert leadership. You do what they tell you because you believe that they are some expert in the field. Your doctor telling you to loose weight is one example.

Good leaders use different sources of power depending on the situation. For example in the workplace a manager may have authority over you, hire/fire and pay increases. He may also be more expert than you in the area of work and he may be charismatic. He will use different sources of power to get you to do what he wants depending on the situation.

Charismatic leadership is the most powerful of all the types.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Management or Leadership

A leader leads a team, always within his own discipline. He should be able to do any of the jobs carried out by lesser members of the team. He should lead by example and make others in the team feel secure in various ways.

A manager manages a broader range of THINGS and need not have the skills to actually carry out the practical work himself. He sort of directs from on high, but generally remains detached from minor team activities.

It seems that leaders get things done, whereas managers stuff things up. At least that has been my experience in my engineering career.

I suppose you could say a football captain needs to be a good team leader, needs to be able to play the actual game well. The team manager needs to know about finance and wheeling and dealing, he could even by physically disabled and still be an excellent team manager. Two different things entirely.

RE: Management or Leadership

All good leaders are managers, not all managers are leaders.

RE: Management or Leadership

Good post Rick....

RE: Management or Leadership

Leaders are working WITH you before a major dead line.

Managers left.

RE: Management or Leadership

In my opinion, Leadership & Management is part of the effective team. I've been reading Dr Covey's books i.e. 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, 8th Habits & First Thing First.

To him, leadership is about communicating so clearly to the people of their worth and potential that make them actually see in themselves.

I believe, in order to be effective or success in any discipline/work we need to have both, leadership and management....

RE: Management or Leadership

I was hoping that someone could explain to the us, ignorant Europeans what is "International Land Pasture and Range judging contest" and the relationship with leadership/management...

RE: Management or Leadership

Obviously it's a secret technology used in the USA to improve their leadership skills. No doubt it is top secret as it is part of their national competitive advantage. The first part of the program is called "Spelling Bee" and then potentially higher grade leaders are sent out for International Land Pasture and Range judging contests.

There's a rumour that the third part is called "The Apprentice", but my spies tell me that's where the failures are sent to learn about haircare.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Management or Leadership

Covey has another book, "Returning to the Well For Yet Another Drink", a good follow up to, "Get the Whip, This Horse is Dead".

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Leading Hand, Natural Horseman, Prickle Farmer, Crack Shot, Venerable Yogi.

RE: Management or Leadership

Leadership in fact can be our choice. I think the word leader itself is relatively subjective. One can be leader of a family, leader of small group, big group, state, country, world etc. But..for sure leader must have follower(s).

Leadership
1)People
2)Enpowerment
3)Transformation
4)Doing the Right Thing
5)Direction
6)On the system
7)"Is the ladder against the right wall?"
8)Principles
9)Effective
10)Top line

Management
1)Thing
2)Control
3)Transaction
4)Doing things right
5)Speed
6)In the system
7)Climbing the ladder fast
8)Practices
9)Efficiency
10)Bottom line

RE: Management or Leadership

my two cents worth:

1)  Slugger926: I'm considered to be one of the better team leads in my organization (according to both my management and my fellow workers).  However, I am horrible at atletics; something about poor eyesight and poor hand-eye coordination.  I also am not much of a competitor (no spelling bees for me.)  My view on athletics is that people like me were dumped on the side lines because we couldn't help win the games (you know, the person neither side wanted when choosing players in P.E. class).  Maybe that's how athletics developed me into a good leader:  by recognizing that there had to be a better way to do it?


2)  BJC:  Not all good leaders are managers.  As others have pointed out, there are distinct differences between the two occupations (I really like norzul's comparison!).  I'm not the least interested in being a paper-pushing manager.  I like being a lead engineering inspector (my official title) because I'm involved in technical issues and I get to use my engineering skills as well as my people skills.

Patricia Lougheed

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

RE: Management or Leadership

"Not all good leaders are managers"
Good leader manage people.  

RE: Management or Leadership

Not all good leaders can manage people.

Leadership is getting people to do what you want them to do.

If your source of leadership power is authority then it doesn’t matter if the people want to go where you send them, it doesn’t matter if they are effective once they get there all that matters is that they do what you want them to do.

A prison warden is a leader of the prisoners. It doesn’t matter if they want to go back to their cells, just that they go back to them. He uses authority and the use of punishment to get them to go back.

A charismatic leader is one who gets people to do things because they want to do them for him. Think of aspiring politicians or religious leaders. Again it doesn’t matter of they are doing good or being productive for the leadership to be effective. Remember the guy with the poison cool aid twenty years ago? Bad management but effective leadership. Over 900 people killed themselves because they wanted to please him.

On the other hand a prison warden who can effectively manage the prison and make the cells more hospitable (i.e. the heat is on and the plumbing works) will have an easier time getting the prisoners to do what he wants them to do than if the cells were rat holes with frozen plumbing. A politician who is also an effective manager in governing will increase the odds of being reelected.

Management is making decisions regarding the allocation and use of resources to get something done. Leadership is about getting people to do what you want them to do.

Just as managers use many different tools to analyze the resource allocation problems good leaders will use many different sources of leadership power to get the people going where they want. Leadership can be charismatic (religious leaders for example) expert (doctors) or authoritian (police).

Think of a typical office leader. He (she) will use their authority when necessary, be charismatic when necessary or use their expertise when necessary to effectively guide the people under them to do what they want them to do.

A good manager who is also a good leader will not only get people doing what he wants them to do but will have them doing it effectively and efficiently.

Leadership and management are two vastly different concepts that they cannot be compared. When they are combined well the results can be striking. When they are combined poorly the results can de disastrous.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Management or Leadership

One of the best ways I've seen it described is that managers make sure you're doing things right; leaders make sure you're doing the right things.

RE: Management or Leadership

Hitler was a great leader.

He managed to use his charisma to get the entire German people united behind him. He then used this charismatic leadership to transfer into an elected politician who was able to obtain authoritarian leadership powers in addition to the charismatic powers that he possessed.

It is just lucky for us that he was a bad manager and was unable to use the resources available to him in the best way or England would have fell shortly after the battle of Dunkirk and he never would have invaded Russia and divided his forces thus paving the way for his defeat.

He did not get his people to do the right thing.

Do not mistake doing the right thing with the ability to get people to do things. That is all leadership is. It is the ability to get people to do things and may be used for ill or for good.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

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