New Orleans Pumps
New Orleans Pumps
(OP)
I caught the tail end of an interview where it was mentioned that the electric motors that run the drainage pumps are 50 cycle and they have to have a special power plant up and running. I have a lot of information on the drainage system but no mention of the type motors except that the last pump installed had a synchronous motor.
I was just wandering if this true.
This is curious as my home near coal and ore mines and steel mills had a lot of 50 cycle equipment. In fact the company towns around the mines and mills had 50 cycle power, free, so everything electrical had to came from the company store.
I was just wandering if this true.
This is curious as my home near coal and ore mines and steel mills had a lot of 50 cycle equipment. In fact the company towns around the mines and mills had 50 cycle power, free, so everything electrical had to came from the company store.





RE: New Orleans Pumps
You bet me to the punch on this one. I was going to post a thread today asking a related question.
When I was just a pup of an engineer, I was a service engineer for a major turbine OEM, and while I never visited the stations I will mention, I did have co-service entineers who had describe them to me.
The question I was going to post pertained to seeing if this was still the case, since it has been 30+ years ago that I gleaned this information, and the stations were old at the time. They were said to be 1920 vintage stuff.
The pumps that drained the city of NO of that day were part of an entity known as Sewage and Water Board, and were driven by 25 cycle motors which had their own 25 cycle generator at a power station devoted to that application. (Yes, I am that old, and I do know that it is hertz now, I just don't think that way.)
Again, depending on my older memory, as I do remember it, it was stated that this was all used stuff brought in from way up north somewhere, Detroit as I remember it, and it was obsolete equipment wherever it came from. Some how the whole 25 cycle set up; generators and pumps and motors came in under that umbrella.
So, my question was going to be: (recognizing that anyone who might be able to answer it is probably not on line right now-dealing with their own particular personal or professional tradedy) were the old S&WB 25 cycle pumps/generators of the 1970's still in place, or had they been upgraded to something more modern.
Would a 25 cycle motor be upgradable to a 50 hertz application or is the 50 hertz statement just a typical news media situation of getting technical information botched up as they broad cast it. If it is still 25 cycle, they probably had never heard of that.
As I have been watching all this, I have been wondering about the S&WB situation, and how they were going about doing what they do. I shudder to think that they will have to be trying to start up 80 year old boilers. But, I note that Entergy, the power company in the area (NOPSI is part of Entergy) returned some late '40's vintage units to service several years ago at their patterson station, as well as some other old boat anchor stations throughout their system. (We ratepayers paid for it all.)
If anybody has any updated information about the pump situation in NO, at least Unclesyd and I are intereested.
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I really doubt that they converted 25 Hz to 50 Hz.
The transformers generally have relief valves. If they are submerged, they can probably be salvaged if they are cleaned off and dried out (after re-filling probably).
It's a huge mess, but one that everyone knew was possible, so the lack of preparedness surprises me a little (but it probably shouldn't).
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Also ASME has an article on the pumps.
www.asme.org/history/brochures/h003.pdf
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Not that I don't have sympathy. I truly am sorry and saddened by the scenes unfolding on the news, but it seems like this catastrophe was inevidable.
David
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Where would you put the ports?
Where would you put the refineries since no one wants them in their backyard?
Where altitude would be the cutoff?
Would we remove San Francisco before the big one or maybe LA?
What about the Washington or Oregon, maybe a Tsunami or volcanic eruption ?
NO has been there for over 300 yrs. Though it has admittedly been over developed which should be corrected. The failure in NO was the engineering in the levees, the pumping system, the electrical system, communications and last but not least p-ss poor planning by the officials. This didn’t fit their models so they have no idea which direction to turn. As stated in another post it is unconscionable that a double general states that we have several plans to plug the levees, but we can’t get to leak. To me it seems that it wasn’t a very good plan. Then someone from COE get up and says that through the efforts of a lot of people the water level has crested. I think the only person who influenced this was fellow by the name of Archimedes. Later newscast showed water still flowing through the 17th St break. I understand that they are trying to shut off the water in the canal from Lake Pontchartrain with sheet piling.
You know they are in deep when the FEMA man includes the press when he says it will take patience while they “think out of the box”.
Another rant by unclesyd
PS:
They waited until the price jump at the pumps to release some oil from the SPR.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
No one would locate a city where NO is if they were starting from scratch today. It would make a lot of sense to re-build somewhere else. But I suspect the political reality is that it will be re-built and we will all be helping to pay for it.
Since a levee failure and/or a major hurricane have long been known to have major consequences for NO, I am amazed at the apparent complete lack of realistic contingency planning for this event.
I suspect this will be a major turning point in emergency planning and preparedness in the US, at least I hope so. It also provides a reminder of how much we depend on electric power. As emergency batteries run down and emergency generators go under water, NO has essentially no communications with the outside world. Even police radios do not work without their linked repeaters and base stations. And forget about your cell phone for quite a while - although I've heard some landlines were still working at some hotels.
OK - enough off-topic ranting and raving from me.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Are the pumps motor driven or diesel driven?
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
I read some great stuff on the pump systems in the past because we bid on some of the upgrade work, but all of the links I kept were from Tulane or Loyola Universities, and sadly right now none of them are working. I fear that much has been lost.
Found some info on the pumps themselves, but not much on the electrical system. I do know they have been doing major upgrades since 2002 at least, but I don't think it was complete. Some of the oldest systems were 25Hz (not 50 AFAIK), because they were begun near the turn of the century. With Westinghouse and Tesla's success in Niagra using a 25Hz alternator system, NO jumped right on the bandwagon and went that route too. The Woods Screw Pump motors were 25Hz because they wanted high efficiency. 25Hz is fairly good for that on motors, but we don't use it because it makes for flickering lights. Most of the oldest have all been upgraded to 60Hz power AFAIK. Knowing the news media, they probably jumped all over the story of the few stations left that had not yet been upgraded because it makes it more sensational, especially if they can hint at some sort of scandal.
Pump info:
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h003.pdf
http:/
http://www.feedscrews.com/shownews/329
Intersting related NOLA info:
http://mar
Check out this eerie blog prediction from 2004!
http
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Now that the water levels have equalized, levee repair might go a little better than it has been.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I venture to say that most of them will be turned on as soon as they can get them (and their power sources) "somewhat" dry, and whatever damage or contamination they suffered will be left to allow final destruction in short order. The problem will continue for a long time.
Speaking of contamination, I fear that their entire electrical grid will be down a lot longer than the pundits want to admit publicly. That "toxic soup" that is the aftermath of the trapped water is full of chemicals and solvent that were never meant to come in contact with insualting materials. I expect to see some major fireworks when they start to go back on line.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
Blacksmith
RE: New Orleans Pumps
With pumps working, the flow rate through the breach would be roughly equal to pumping capacity.
This would provide an erosive force which may further degrade the breach and also interfere with repair efforts. My vote (not that anyone cares) is to leave the pumps off until major breachers are repaired.
Interesting comment about the electrical system jraef. I hadn't thought of that.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
You are correct in that respect if the leak is large as in this case, but I have been in a situation where the pumps kept the engine that was running the pumps from going under water.
They had a catch 22 in this case where as you say if they started the pumps they would be circulation pumps not the dewatering pumps as needed as a number of the pumps discharge into the 17th Street Canal where the major break was.
Just heard a good one. The reason that they couldn’t get to the big break in levee was that a new low bridge that blocked the canal had just opened and they couldn’t remove it.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Because any fill placed will be washed away. I wonder if they could switch on pumps in sequence to counter the tidal motion. (if they had functional pumps)
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I just sent this link to several websites hoping it would get to someone close to the action.
http://www.seacatch.com/index.htm
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
rmw
PS, and on our nickel
RE: New Orleans Pumps
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/
Check the post at 8:23 PM by Mark Schfleifstein titled "Surge, breach and 26 foot gouge"
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Thanks to SlideRuleEra excellent link I was reading on the New Orleans pumping system. I then Goggled some more and saw that they ran at 25 Hz (some articles had 50 Hz)
Couple of questions
Is there some advantage to running the motors like this….. like the speed vs torque trade off in gearing ( 10 speed bikes for example)
Do they need local generators for this or what kind of equipment do they use to change the cycles of the 60 Hz.
How does this work with the phasing etc
jraef
Reading on the capacity of these pumps... All 21 stations have a capacity of pumping a total of 47,000 cu ft of water per second times 7.48 for gallons times 60 for minutes times 60 for hours times 24 for days == 30,374,000,000 gallons per day compare this to Nashville Water (where I work) the water system (aprox 2600 miles of pipe) puts out
162,000,000 per day max of fresh water 162 MGD vs 30,374 MGD whew also 1,000,000 gallons equal 3.07 acre feet so the pumps whould drain 30,374 acres of water (47 and a half square miles) 3 feet and one inch deep per day
John
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Excellent math work there on the pumping capacity, although I am not going to double check it! I't's still 6-7 days of ALL of the pumps working and no more rain.
If you read one of my posts above, the oldest are/were 25Hz because that was one of the first power systems designed in the US, and NO jumped all over the concept early on to solve their problem. Yes, they had dedicated generation systems for them, those are down too of course.
This website gives a decent explanation as to why 25Hz was "chosen" in those early days. htt
Apparently much of the equipment for NO was bought and moved from the Niagra area.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
John
RE: New Orleans Pumps
If it takes perhaps 7 days or more to pump down the city but only a matter of hours to initially fill it up, then the pumping capacity would be insignificant compared to the rate of inrush of water through those breaches, right?
So it wouldn't have mattered whether pumps worked or not. The city would still be flooded. Do y'all agree with that conclusion?
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
John
RE: New Orleans Pumps
It's just too bad the pumps weren't all mounted on tethered floatation with flexible hose so if a levee failed they would stay functional or at least onsite and not damaged. Instead of being drowned rats.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that it is insignificant whether pumps work once they get the breaches fixed (that will be important).... I meant that it was insignificant that a few pumps malfunctioned on Monday since the present flooding situatio would be the same even if they had worked.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
The pumping system was never designed to deal with a major levee failure. It was sized to handle normal water inflows plus a major rainstorm.
An article in the local paper's website (www.nola.com) indicated that the Sewerage Board was working on critical pump stations to get them ready to run once the levee is plugged. However, it also said that the power plant they need to run the pump motors is not yet working.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
http://ww
Quotes:
[As a precautionary measure, the Waterford 3 nuclear plant near Taft, La., shut down when a hurricane warning was issued for St. Charles Parish on Saturday. It remains in an Unusual Event, the lowest of four emergency action levels. Electrical power for key safety systems on site is being supplied by the plant's standby diesel generators, following a loss of off-site power caused by instability in the regional electrical grid.]
Of interest:
[The Grand Gulf nuclear plant near Port Gibson, Miss., and River Bend Nuclear Station near Baton Rouge, La., were both operating at reduced power this morning. The plants operated through the storm, but voluntarily reduced power generation to assist in restoring stability to the electrical grid when a drop in energy consumption caused grid voltage to fluctuate.]
RE: New Orleans Pumps
These pumps would be hard to put on barges as most of them are in the 12' to 14' diameter range. The biggest pumps I've seen on dredges were 6' dia.
The pumps will move most anything in the system. Mr. Wood also invented an excellent sewage pump. His original sewage pumps have run since they were installed in the teens and twenties without ever being taken out of service.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
We have been having a similar fight on this in the SF Bay Area. After the last earthquake and bridge failure, a plan was made to replace the old Bay Bridge. The new span was designed specifically to withstand an 8.0 quake (maybe more, can't remember). Nevertheless, squabbles and political wrangling over alignment and property values delayed it so long that the cost went up astronomically. Then our “Governator” declared that the state would no longer fund the current design, saying it was too “extravagant” and we couldn’t afford it. His team proposed a cheaper design that would be, guess what, JUST LIKE THE ONE THAT FAILED!
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
So all you really need is a flexible discharge tube. Which actually could be done with rotating elbow joints, or the spherical joints they use in dredge pipes. The joints don't have to be particularly leak- resistant; just let the pump pick up whatever runs out.
Additionally, you may need to put a trap in the discharge tube so the vacuum pumps can prime the pump, so you need a good- size barge. I've been to New Orleans; they've got big barges everywhere in various states of construction and disrepair.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Still, in this application they would need to have the generators floating as well. Still not impossible, but if it came up in a meeting I'm sure it was shot down due to cost. Hind sight is always 20/20.
Another thought that crossed my mind on this:
If you know that the water is not going to get much higher than the tops of the levees, couldn't you build a coffer dam-like structure around the pumps and generators that is a little higher than that? I'm watching them build the new Bay Bridge in the SF Bay, and for the pilings they build these gigantic coffer dams in the water, then pump the water out of them, making a "hole" in the bay to work in. I'm sure the size is limited by the available structural strength of the materials, but I could envision some very big pump systems fitting in those. Throw on a little paint and grow sme Kudzu on the outside, and they could blend in with the surroundings.
"Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more." Nikola Tesla
Member, P3
itsmoked (Electrical)
I thought of that jraef but then thought about servicing headaches that would come with the design. You would have to climb ladders up and down the outside and inside. Carry all the tools.. ugh. Or put expensive (small) doors thru the coffer. How do you get the big parts out? Over the top with a crane... The operator of which can't see what's going on. Then if you have a power/fuel failure, both likely in this horror scenario, and a leak is present... Whereas everything mounted on skids welded on top of any number of standard floats even as lame as barrels would intrinsically work and be walk/float up maintainable.
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)
The buildings in which the current pumps are housed are not bad looking buildings, thanks to some pretty fancy brickwork.
itsmoked (Electrical)
Nice idea. Does anyone know what style of pumps they are? Are they a below grade vertical shaft or an above grade horizontal?
electricpete (Electrical)
You would of course need to take a close look at the bearings before you try to convert to belt drive.
electricpete (Electrical)
The question above on why would anyone use 25 hz?
rmw (Mechanical)
In one of the links given in this thread or possibly the other ones that are current on this subject, the reason for 25 Hz is given in some detail. I just can't remember which one it is at this time.
BJC (Electrical)
25 Hz was one of the early frequencys used in several places. There was a hydro plant at Niagra Falls and one on the Mississippi ( first dam upstream of St Lousi I believe ) that were 25 cycles. 25 Cycle lost out to 60 and those plants were changed to 60. The New Orleans pumping plants being isolated didn't have to change.
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)
Absent numbers, I'm guessing maybe the motor bearings could stand the radial load associated with a drive belt, provided the motor is unpowered of course.
bigfoot58 (Mechanical)
I have seen many misconseptions on the news and other sources where statements have been made that New Orleans was built below sea level. New Orleans has sunk due to compression of the river silt it was built on.
jraef (Electrical)
25Hz came as a result of retrofitting some existing water turbines that turned at 250 rpm. Tesla just kept it simple and added poles accordingly. From the website I posted earlier on the Rankine power station
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
I did also think maybe innocuous 3 story slip poured buildings with everything of import mounted on the third floor would work too. Maybe more conventional(cheaper) and fixed in space, easier to work on and maintain during this kind of event(understatement).
RE: New Orleans Pumps
But recent threads about the tsunami lead me to believe it may be years before they get the powerplant and the electric motors dried out well enough to survive startup.
Those big pumps, thanks to the low head, need relatively little HP to drive them. You can get enough from a pretty small, pretty portable Diesel. The design speed of the turbines is such that you could strap a big pulley onto the electric motor shaft, rig a small engine with a small pulley next to the motor, and run the pump without bothering to dry the motor, the powerplant or the distribution system.
The engines can be rented; they use them to run emergency pumps for salvaging ships. With air-cooled Deutz engines, exposed flywheels, and compressed air start, you just keep feeding them fuel, and they just keep running, no electricity anywhere near them.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
These are large machines.
Sleeve bearings are not suitable for belt loading.
Anti-friction bearings on large machines designed for non-belt operation may not have enough margin to handle the radial load associated with a belt.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
My guess is that it is cheaper to build a low-speed motor at 25hz.
It would have one-half the number of poles of the same motor at 50hz.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
The dam on the Mississippi had one or two generators that are 25 cycles and used by industrial uses that have 25 cycle equipment.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
If that's too risky, one could attach a u-jointed short driveshaft to the nondriving end of the motor, and set up a pulley with its own support and bearings there, so the motor would only have to transmit torque to the pump.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
"Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more." Nikola Tesla
Member, P3
itsmoked (Electrical)
On the subject of New Orleans, NOAA has some extremely revealing sat photos that you might be interested in. They are extremely high resolution shots that are large AND detailed. The more of them I look at the more clear the disaster becomes. There are places that pumps will not reach and must drain/evaporate eventually. Shipping containers where blown around like confetti! I suggest you save these pics to your computer so you can zoom them up to 100% and wander around in them as the detail is incredible.
fproducts. nos.noaa.g ov/storms/ katrina/24 431127.jpg fproducts. nos.noaa.g ov/storms/ katrina/24 431080.jpg fproducts. nos.noaa.g ov/storms/ katrina/24 440727.jpg fproducts. nos.noaa.g ov/storms/ katrina/24 430900.jpg fproducts. nos.noaa.g ov/storms/ katrina/24 425441.jpg
rmw (Mechanical)
I spent quite a little bit of time looking at those NOAA photos yesterday and it is slow loading (wireless B). I did locate Entergy's Little Gypsy, Nine Mile and Waterford power plants, and they all look OK.
SlideRuleEra (Structural)
Pump Station Locations
/www.mvn.u sace.army. mil/pao/hi story/NO_D rainage/Ne wOrleansDr ainage.htm
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
Here is another route through http://wether.gov to some of the pictures. You can get very close by drilling down.
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
The TV has been showing some of the pumphouses this morning and it look as if one was testing it's pumps. Three of them look in very good shape.
itsmoked (Electrical)
I did extensive photo research on the pumps listed in SlideRuleEra 's post. All the pump staions look unflooded(yes!). A few look like they may have a little water on the floor (inches?) But none look close to being drowned. I couldn't find (Prentiss).
DickDV (Electrical)
Speaking of 25Hz, I believe some of the buildings in the US Steel Gary Works are still 25Hz. At least they were about 7 years ago when I was in the plant.
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
Here is one type of auxillary pump (Hydroflow) the COE is getting to assist in dewatering of NO.
itsmoked (Electrical)
Strange looking that!
jgoodburn (Computer)
jraef (Electrical) 1 Sep 05 0:26 wrote:
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
Just heard on the news that 3 pumping stations are on line and they had tried to go with #6 the big one, but it had dropped out. One of the problems with #6 station that has to be watched is it used the 17th street canal, which isn't in the best of shape.
itsmoked (Electrical)
"TV" (ugh), reported that the water dropped quickly because a levee/s were deliberately breached. This because water was higher in town than in the drainage area. This rapidly dropped the water to the drainage depth. Now the deliberate breaches are repaired and all the rest must be pumped. Hence slower.
jraef (Electrical)
I'm happy some of the pumps are running, but I can't get my head around what must be going through them. Not just lounge chairs and tires, but also every chemical stored or spilled in that area, body parts, human waste, dead animals, every concevable hunk of trash known to mankind. All of it eventually making it's way out to the Gulf, which was already in trouble. I know we have to do this quickly for the trapped people, but the environmental consequences are going to be horriffic too. What a shame.
itsmoked (Electrical)
Indeed! And if they wait too long for action I can see the standard.. But wait! You have to build a floodwater treatment plant before you can pump!
SlideRuleEra (Structural)
unclesyd - There do seem to be some odd things happening regarding pumping. I downloaded the Hydraflow pump data from the link you furnished. The largest of the Mobile Hydraflow pumps is 3' diameter and rated at 45,000 GPM (100 CFS). To me, this looks like the pump being shown over & over on TV. The reported capacity of Pump Station #6 alone is 10,000 CFS. It would take "forever" for the few portable pumps to put a dent in the flood.
electricpete (Electrical)
10,000 cfs would be 5,000,000 gpm?
SlideRuleEra (Structural)
electricpete - It must be a big pump staion, has two each, 12' dia. and 4 each 14' dia Wood screw pumps, along with assorted newer additions. See Chapter 4c here /www.mvn.u sace.army. mil/pao/hi story/NO_D rainage/Ne wOrleansDr ainage.htm
/www.mvd.u sace.army. mil/hurric ane/docs/Q As%20on%20 unwatering %20New%20O rleans.pdf
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
The big pump at #6 is now pumping 1,000,000 GPM or 133680.6 ft³/min.
rmw (Mechanical)
I graduated from college and reported to my first job in NO. This was pre-EPA, pre-PC, pre-OSHA, pre anything like what we have now. The town where I lived (Kenner) took their drinking water from the river, and I stll remember the taste and smell of that water. UG!!! I wonder now what kind of carcinogins that I ingested at that time.
itsmoked (Electrical)
Wow.. Long live Reverse Osmosis!
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
As of 5:30 on 09-08-05 the pumping rate was approximately 9,000 cfs, 4,039,480.5 gallon (US)/min.
electricpete (Electrical)
We have pumps (power plant circ water pumps) that are approx 250,000 gpm and they are provided with 8 foot pipe. Where the output of two pumps merge (500,000gpm), the pipe size increases to 11.25'. For double the flow rate (500,000/250,000) we have roughly double the area (Pi*11.25/2)^2 / (Pi*8/2)^2 ~ 2
electricpete (Electrical)
OK - there was an error in treatment of Pi but it cancels out and doesn't affect the results - you know what I meant anyway
electricpete (Electrical)
and 154 was ft^2 representing area of 14' pipe. typo's abound. #%*&#
Laplacian (Electrical)
electricpete,
BJC (Electrical)
Speaking of pumps but not electric ones. There are three pumps on the western side of the Great Salt Lake that pump water out of the lake into the desert to evaporate. The pumps are natural gas powered reciprocating engines ( Cat 3416s) that pumps were Archimedes screws and moved about 1.4 million gallons min. The head was low and they probalby had a sipon effect that helped ease the work. There was an artical in ENR on the station.
electricpete (Electrical)
Aha!. I was thinking one pump in a pumping station. My bad. Thx.
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
Here is the update put out by the COE and like the posts by SlideRuleEra has some good information
crossthread (Mechanical)
itsmoked,
itsmoked (Electrical)
Ahh!!! Yes that makes good sense!! Thanks for the thought. There, we can reduce the damage estimate by a million bucks!
rmw (Mechanical)
I remember thinking that it was a junkyard when I saw it, but I couldn't find the dog.
electricpete (Electrical)
A little closer to home for the motor forum is this photo: .clarionle dger.com/a pps/pbcs.d ll/gallery ?Site=D0&a mp;Date=20 050909& ;Category= NEWS0110&a mp;ArtNo=5 09090806&a mp;Ref=PH& amp;Params =Itemnr=19
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)
I wonder if a modern motor would survive that?
electricpete (Electrical)
NEMA MG-1 has provisions for a submersion test including wetting agents. I think most modern epoxy VPI systems would have a pretty good chance to survive flooding.
itsmoked (Electrical)
Wow!
Talk about water in the windings... That sprayer is even stripping the paint off. This would certainly be a case for a low voltage winding heat up/dry out.
loudvegas (Computer)
Since this appears to be the leading thread on this subject I thought I would chime in. When the first reports came out that said the city's pumps were offline due to power and some being submerged I had a thought.
MikeHalloran (Mechanical)
If it fits on a flatbed that can travel without special permits, it can't be more than 8 feet in its smallest dimension, maybe 10-1/2 feet in its next smallest.
unclesyd (Materials)
(OP)
It looks like they are getting underway. There is a chart of what's going on as to the number of pumps and capacity.
loudvegas (Computer)
I am especially interested in the Diesel units and the diesel-electric units. Cant find footage/pics anywhere.
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
Here are links to a few of them:
http://m
http://m
http://m
http://m
What's with all these cars?
http://m
Here is the master link:
http://alt.ngs.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM
Google's maps are very nice too with live scrolling and click for Katrina.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
My question is; does anyone know the approximate location of any of the S&WB pumping stations so that I can go directly to an appropriate photo instead of having to wade through all the photos? I can use a street map for navigating the NOAA picture frames.
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
#1 Intersection Broad & Melpomene Sts
#3 Intersection London & Marigny Aves
#4 Prentiss & London Aves
#6 Upper Protection Canal, back of Metairie Cemetery
#7 Intersection Taylor Ave & Orleans St
This information (from page 31), and more, is available in the 112 page book "National Register Evaluation of New Orleans Drainage System, Orleans Parish, Louisiana" (free .pdf download) at
http:/
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: New Orleans Pumps
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2495.htm
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Last night on the TLC? as I was looking this stuff up, the show about N.O. came to the pump stations. They interviewed an operator and showed a station. They explained that the whole system was designed to remove 2"(rain) in the first hour, then I think 2" in the next 5 hours? Anymore rain than that and THERE WILL BE Flooding. Seems a little inadequate to me.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Check out the pdf as they have capacities up to 120,000 GPM.
http://www.mwicorp.com/pump.html
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
>There are a lot of pumps all over the area. Electric motor
>driven for the most part, but there are a few diesel and
>natural gas. But even those are not going to work
>submerged.
>I read some great stuff on the pump systems in the past
>because we bid on some of the upgrade work, but all of the
>links I kept were from Tulane or Loyola Universities, and
>sadly right now none of them are working. I fear that much
>has been lost.
Just a thought, try plugging your URL's for the off-line sites into Google, and choosing the "CACHED" option. Google keeps a snapshot of each site it indexes, so that if the site disappears, you can usually view it at the point Google last indexed it.
God bless New Orleans and America, I hope you folks get back to leading 'normal' lives again soon. I wish I could say something more, but I am at a loss for words.
Jason Goodburn
Toronto, Canada
jgoodburn(at) hotmail.com
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I have seen two of the Hydraflow pumps working.
One thing that doesn't jive is that with the original inundated acreage they have drawn the water down 2". As the acreage is decreased the process should go much faster.
Just hope they don't slow the process down to match their predictions.
On a lighter note:
One of the reporters was on the air and swatting bugs and stated “They are really going to have to get after the mosquitos”. For anyone that has ever been along the Gulf Coast this time of year would recognize the bugs he was chopping at were our beloved “Love Bugs”.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Of course slower may also be because it's hard to pump lounge chairs and tires.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I assume that the Hydraflow pumps are being use for some "small scale" dewatering - maybe to get access to necessary flooded equipment or, alternatively, it makes a very visible public relations photo op.
jraef - There is an environmental consequences discussion here thread194-133468
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: New Orleans Pumps
That's one monster pump!
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
http:/
Rather than adding all of them up, got the total station capacity here
http:/
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: New Orleans Pumps
As for the stuff going into the Gulf I don't think it can compare to material that once came down the river in normal flow not too many years age. The Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain at one time were sewers. There have been numerous barge leaks that killed tremendous numbers of fish and wildlife that weren't mad public.
Having fished the Gulf for many years (60 +) and seen houses, with chickens on the roof, 50 miles East of the river during floods I don't think this will have that much effect on things as whole. Like someone has posted nature puts a lot natural oil continuously in the water. Prior to drilling East of the river there were literally thousands of oil and gas seeps and light oil slicks along the 37 ridge that runs 100 miles to the east.
The biggest effect will be on the local fishery, like the oyster, shrimp, and crab. They will have time to recover as not too many boats survived.
It looks like a tremendous number of trees have died and NO or any city without the oaks is sad.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
The river then was nasty. Everyone dumped everyting with no restraints into it.
So, while I wouldn't recommend it as a regular thing, I think the river and the lake and the Gulf will survive this upset.
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Not all the big pumps are on.
There was a news item this morning that there is an ongoing oil spill at the Bass oil facilities. They didn’t state the location but indicated its was at or near Port Fourchon.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
But that doesn't scale up to 5,000,000 gpm at 14'. At 14' it would scale up to around 725,000 gpm.
So if a 5,000,000 gpm were associated with a 14' pipe I would think the velocities would be far higher than what we have. Velocity would be [10,000 ft^3/sec] / 154 ft^3 ~ 70 ft/sec I think this is outside the bounds of normal velocities but I'm not sure.
Can anyone clarify? Is 10,000 ft^3/sec in a 14' pipe incorrect?
(I'm not trying to be picky... just trying to find the right data)
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
Pump Station # 6 consists of the following per one of the links:
The pumping equipment at Station No. 6 consists of
two 12' Wood screw pumps rated at 550 cfs, installed in 1916; four 14' Wood screw pumps rated
at 1,000 cfs, installed in 1930; three Worthington 14' screw pumps, one rated at 1,000 cfs and two
rated at 1,050 cfs, installed 1986-1989; four vertical centrifugal constant pumps rated at 250 cfs,
installed 1985-1988; and two vertical centrifugal constant duty pumps rated at 90 cfs, installed ca.
1930. The Worthington screw pumps are later variations of the basic Wood screw pump design
and operate in a similar fashion. The six Wood screw pumps are the most significant engineering
objects at the station. Associated with the Wood pumps are auxiliary equipment such as vacuum
pumps for priming the main pumps, switchgear for starting and operating them, and other minor
features. As is the case at Station No. 1, the Wood screw pumps at Station No. 6 operate on 25
cycle electric current, which is generated by a central generating station. In an emergency, a
frequency converter station connected to Entergy generators can be utilized for current supply.
The pumps at this station installed during the 1980s have more modern 60 cycle current supply.
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Re: post 4 Sep 05 15:12
New Orleans, NOAA sat photos -
"What's with all these cars?"
My being a simi-pro dumpster diver/junkyard fan enabled me to immediately recognize that part of the photo as being an automotive junkyard.
(High and dry - Ironicle, huh?)
RE: New Orleans Pumps
RE: New Orleans Pumps
I think it will be interesting to see how many functional cars that could have carried people to safety will now have to be added to this junkyard because of flood damage.
rmw
RE: New Orleans Pumps
http://www
Caption reads: "Terry Cox, an employee with General Electric from Atlanta, uses a high pressure hose Friday, Sept. 9, 2005, on the edge of New Orleans to clean an electric pump motor that normally keeps the city dry. This was one of a number of motors partially flooded, making them inoperable."
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
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RE: New Orleans Pumps
In our town there was a flood in "55". Our main street ran along next to the local river, so naturally the "downtown" got the major brunt of it. Several days after the flooding ceased a friend was called to come down and analyse something that was disturbing a lot of people. Downtown, he was lead down some 3 or 4 stairs that then disappeared into the usual flooded basement soup. There was a wavering blue glow and an unrecognized noise. After pondering this he figured out it was repulsion induction motor with brushes merrily pumping away. Being afraid to touch the water it was left running. It never failed and wasn't removed from service until its sump pump function was no longer required.
Could this motor have been run in water?
RE: New Orleans Pumps
Last year while visiting home I was on one of the levees of the Mississippi around the Greenvilel Ms area. They were pumping water from pits being used for fill dirt to raise the height of the levee.
Anyway, there was a MONSTER pump on a flat bed semi trailer with a very large diesel power head. Maybe even a low rpm engine in the 1000 HP range. I was just thinking that since the COE has access to these things, why cant they be used? I could not find specs for one of the units I saw but they have to be impressive. Or maybe not?
RE: New Orleans Pumps
The Wood pumps in NO are 12 and 14 feet in their smallest dimension, the suction and discharge pipe size. Their maximum head capacity may not be great, but the flow numbers are huge; between 1/4 and 1/2 _million_ gpm for the small ones, and most of 1 million gpm for the big ones.
I assume they've already commandeered all of the big portable pumps they can find or reasonably emplace, but getting the Wood pumps into service would be a higher priority, in my parallel universe.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: New Orleans Pumps
On 09/13/05 it was at 14,000 ft³/s or as they are putting out 9,000,000,000 gals/day.
http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php
RE: New Orleans Pumps
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