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When is too much too much
5

When is too much too much

When is too much too much

(OP)
Hello,

Very basic question;  When is it ok to retaliate to a jab one of your biggest customer makes towards you?

Basically, I was questioning the way he wanted a portion of a circuit connected (I emailed him directly).  He replied via email (copying all his companies big wigs) basically answering my question but adding a jab to the likes of "there is probably a manufacturers manual on the web if I wanted to educate myself on the subject"!

And straight from the begining he had drawn it wrong on his initial drawing, but corrected himself in the reply email (without mention of this fact of course).

I replied back to his email thanking him for the clarification and told him that I would insure the circuit was designed as per the below email and assume that his initial drawings were incorrectly draw and superseded by the below email.


I took a whole lot of flack for this.   I guess I went to far...Live and learn.

What would you have done?

Regards,
TULUM

RE: When is too much too much

Exact same thing.  And probably gotten flack too.

RE: When is too much too much

First of all, this other person was not behaving in a professional manner, he might just have been having a bad day, but thats no excuse. Basically he called you an idiot only in nicer tones, and the fact that he knows he is a big customer and sent the email to the big wigs suggests that he is a coward as well.
I would have first brought email this to my boss, along with any other correspondence you guys may have had. To showcase this person's unprofessional behaviour. I would not have responded with a direct jab, but I would have made damn sure that everyone saw both sides of the story, ie. what you originally sent and his incorrect design changes. I would then have rationally explained my position and how it relates to his. Essentially you want to make him look like the dick by acting calm and rational and prove that he's in the worng. You want it to look like you're the adult and he's the petulant child.
In other words don't relatiate, turn his insult against him, you don't get flack and he loses some stature.
You can thank Machiavelli for that one.

RE: When is too much too much

I'll second bioengr82's response.

Only thing I would add at this point is be professional and polite even when jabbing back at someone whom you are perceiving as an idiot.

RE: When is too much too much

Sounds to me like you had the perfect response - you were polite - in that you thanked him, and you were covering your own ass by clarifying that the new change was in fact the design rather than the original, therefore giving him no comeback if he changes his minde.

My next step if people were giving me flack would have been to play innocent and simply refuse to understand their problem with your response.
As far as you're concerned you had to establish which was the definitive design since you didn't want to cost the man any money by making a mistake.

RE: When is too much too much

tulum,
Live and learn.  I hate to be a cynic ( I wasn't born this way ) but I've learned to learned to balance the moral high ground with paying the bills ( for me, an expensive lesson ).  I'm sure your superiors understand the situation.  Being the customer tends to bring with it a lot of latitude for attitude.  At the end of the day, everyone knows what the score is.
Regards,
RLS

RE: When is too much too much

I would have done the same thing.  I am a young cynic.  If you had said nothing, he would have continued on the same path.  At least this way, he may think twice before doing it again.

RE: When is too much too much

Alternative is to act like an idiot yourself and point out the discrepancy and request their clarification.

In my years of structural design, architects send me their drawings from which I prepare the structural drawings.  One advice I received from one of my former bosses is "Don't correct their spelling errors".  While many may appreciate you for pointing out their error, a few would find extreme offence.  As I get older, I've learned to close-my-eyes more often (as long as its not life or death)

RE: When is too much too much

I would speculate that the flack you took was due to the tone in your e-mail rather than the content because I can't see anything wrong with the response as it is posted above. Either that or some of the people you work with are extremely sensitive about upsetting others.

If you'd asked him to lend you the manual he'd obviously only just learnt from, implying stupidity rather than a mistake on his part - that I would think might be going too far!

RE: When is too much too much

2
this is why I prefer the phone...

RE: When is too much too much

There is a saying, "the customer is always right."
It is, of course, a complete nonsense.
The real message is that it is the customer who pays the bills and you wont get anywhere by taking offense, by biting back or by getting clever.
The only person who will suffer is you.
Its just one of those facts of life.

If your customer gets smart with you and copies all and sundry, the chances are everyone else, his colleagues and your boss', will all know the true situation. They will far more admire and respect a diplomatic approach or an approach where you simply correct the "error" without comment.

If you are really concerned that your boss may think you are at fault for something on the basis of one email he has received out of context, then be sure to get your diplomatic answer prepared, go see your bos and say "look, this is what this guys said and here is what he actually did. Am i alraight to send this reply?"

Result? Kudos.

If you fire back, you may find yourself on the receiving end for all the wrong reasons except one, you shouldn't take it personally.

The real problem is that each in his own way we are all jackasses at some time or other. Some more than others and many among your customers.

Customers may be wrong but most times you find a way to make things right by not challenging them, not showing them up but by finding them a way to "save face".

"Hey Bob, I think this may be a better way to hook this up, what do you think?"

PS how many people did your email pointing up the problem go to in the first place?

Incidentally, I am very wary about what I say in emails now. That "FW:" button makes people lazy and they will forward your comments to them to all and sundry, warts and all.

Life isn't fair, people aren't perfect but all you've got to do is avoid becoming a victim, especially of someone elses mistake.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: When is too much too much

Did your first e-mail have a reference to his incorrect drawing ???

HVAC68

RE: When is too much too much

Fully agree with jmw. The customer is always right, if even they may (will):
- put you under unreasonable time pressure
- blame you for all their mistakes
- forward your offer and other confidential information to your competitor(s) by accident or on purpose
- etc etc.

My golden rule is:
AGREE IN WRITING
DISAGREE BY PHONE

RE: When is too much too much

(OP)
Thanks for all the replies everyone.

If I think back now, and had to do it again, I MAY let it go next time.  I do believe though I did retaliate in a professionally worded manner, which may have been my saving grace.  I will take the above comments to heart when confronted with similiar situations in the future.

Thanks,

RE: When is too much too much

I'm sure "retaliate" and "professional" cannot be in the same action, no matter how nicely worded.

Resist the urge to "react" or "retaliate" to those that provoke you in business, simply "respond" with the factual information.  Didn't say it was easy, but it'll keep you the flack to a minimum.  You can be personable w/o taking things personal.

I deal w/ specs and designs all the time and agree with epises 110% (you get a star), call them on the PHONE and have them confirm with an email.

Brian

RE: When is too much too much

(OP)
Waski,

Just a figure of speach in an open forum, not meant to be disected... just used the most descriptive words so everyone could understand what I was refering to...

As per my first email; I believe I did respond with factual information....

Anywho, thanks for the tips I will keep them in mind...

RE: When is too much too much

See how easy just words are to misunderstand with no verbal tones etc from a personal conversation? I meant no malice or dissection! :)

Brian

RE: When is too much too much

tulum, in my opinion the guy is a bully, you didn't let him get away with it, so there is a very good chance that he won't mess with you anymore (but don't count on it).

JMW said "If your customer gets smart with you and copies all and sundry, the chances are everyone else, his colleagues and your boss', will all know the true situation. They will far more admire and respect a diplomatic approach or an approach where you simply correct the "error" without comment."

I am going to have to disagree. My experience with managers is that even if they have the capability of understanding a technical issue, they won't take the time.  The chances are that everyone else, the bosses, the customers staff, tulums collegues, etc will not take the time to understand the true situation and will just assume the customers comments were correct and that tulum is an idiot.

That guy may well have done great damage to tulum's career, I think tulum did the right thing in defending himself in as professional manner possible.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: When is too much too much

All customers have their (commercial) reasons to be bullies. Some really are, some not (out of pity). No customer should every annoy you by being a bully UNLESS he won't pay.

RE: When is too much too much

If he cc'd everyone else with an email that didn't pertain to them, they'll probably just wonder "why the heck (saying it nicely) did he send this email to me?" The smart one's will see thru it. The others... Who cares.
Just keep things professional from your end, and you'll be fine.
I wouldv'e called him to clarify, though.
I prefer to use the phone, and follow-up with a summary email. Things are just much better understood when voiced over the phone.

David

RE: When is too much too much

You made a mistake in only writing back to him. You should have written back to him and to all of the names he'd cc'd into his  email and including your own manager. Once emails start flying then continue to use them. If you later use the phone then you have no redress to any future flack that may occur. Your manager should have dealt with the situation and told the customer not to be so aggressive. Unfortunately appearing aggressive is easy to do with emails and I'll be glad when alongside the 'Send' button they also include a 'Wait I've had second thoughts' button.

corus

RE: When is too much too much

If you're quick you can use the "Recall email" feature.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: When is too much too much

Basically concur with bioengr82, being sure to click the "Reply to All" button, but then I am one of the original "Rebel without a clue" bunch.  One of my character flaws, which I am loathe to correct at 52, is a limited tolerance for stupidity, including my own.

Blacksmith

RE: When is too much too much

E-mail wars are not typically productive and the tone of the e-mail is reflected bad on BOTH parties.  He's an idiot period.  His bosses probably recognize it as well, though doubtful they will ever recognize his error nor care.  Save the e-mail and the drawing error reference, in case you are ever questioned and walk away.

I know I did not do it enough(walk away)nor do I still do it enough.  I try though.

RE: When is too much too much

You should always count to ten before hitting the send button...

RE: When is too much too much

To me, it's a simple trade-off:

Your pride vs. potential for pissing off a customer.

To me, pride's a fickle thing and not something to be pandered to at the expense of my well-being nor my company's.

I'm certainly paid enough to keep my big mouth shut (or typing fingers still).

What I've done many times: Type out the response and delight in my witticism. Then, after the urge has passed, delete it.

You can never go wrong by taking the high road.

FWIW, I've been pissy with vendors a time or two, taking full advantage of my customer status (not proud of it, just being honest). I've noticed when they didn't take the bait and my esteem for them has increased significantly as has my willingness to seek them out for new jobs.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: When is too much too much

A for Beggar.  I've always tried to take the high road whenever faced with a situation like this.  Their are plenty of these "angry" people in this world and I would prefer not to join there ranks by playing into their little "pissy" game.

RE: When is too much too much

tulum:

As an older practitioner, I must say that this is not a new issue.  The code of ethics for professional engineers shows the way to handle this type of situation: in general, it is unprofessional and unacceptable to allow an egregious error to go uncorrected, especially if the result might cause harm to the public health or welfare (defined in the broadest possible terms).

In the event of a clear error by the customer or client, you are NOT absolved of the responsibility to speak up in a way that is designed to correct the error.  Diplomacy and tact are wonderful things; it is amazing how a well-composed response can both disarm an aggressive person while at the same time reinforcing your own professional credentials.  The key is to depersonalize the issue and address it in terms of what is best for public health or safety.  If the other side behaves unprofessionally, it is quite proper to take exception.

If the issue is purely economic (acquiescing to the customer's demands will cause you harm), this too can be handled by a straightforward recitation of the technical and/or economic facts.  Here again, the key is to raise the discussion to a level where the problem is presented as one ultimately affecting both parties: should the error not be corrected now and is discovered only after the fact, won't his organization have a beef with your organization's professionalism?  On this aspect, you should also seek your management's agreement in advance.

Reminding a customer that a sub-optimal or imperfect design choice should not go forward is an essential component of all engineering practice.  The client organization is generally composed of many individuals who would likely take up the cudgels on your behalf, provided you confine your reponse to an appropriate, professional, and technically defensible level.  Calling a meeting or video conference to discuss the matter and following up with minutes of the meeting would be one way to ensure a proper resolution.  Also, you are obligated to ensure that all who have been copied in prior correspondence are notified as to how the issue was finally resolved.

RE: When is too much too much

I have not been in exactly the same sitution as you and i dont know if this will help.

We have manufactured parts to drawings for customers and sent them for product approval.  Somtimes they come back saying a feature is out of specification yet when we look at the drawing we are within spec.

On these occasions we scan their drawing and send it back to them informing them we have worked to the drawing they sent and that can they confirm this is the latest drawing they are working to.  We are very polite and never copy their top guys as not to upset them but we copy our manager so he is aware of the situation.

We are very polite and we try to word it so that it does not sound like we are blaming their designer.  As of of yet we have not had any issues arising from doing this.

Craig

RE: When is too much too much

Rule #1 the client is always right.

Rile #2 when the client is wrong, see rule #1

It is never OK to take a jab at the client. Doing so was unprofessional at best and simply shows that you have a thin skin.

If the client takes a jab at you, with or without provocation, never retaliate. Let it slide but make sure that your bosses know what happened.

The client could be attempting to portray your firm in a bad light to justify giving all your business to his brother-in-law’s firm and you just played into his hand. By letting your bosses know what is going on they can deal with it at a senior executive to senior executive level and eliminate any damage to your firm

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

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