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How bad is it in the US?
4

How bad is it in the US?

How bad is it in the US?

(OP)
In today's Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1542985,00.html it is reported that engineers and scientists are being sent to movie school in order that their ilk can be portrayed in a more flattering manner to offset the dramatic decline in the number of students entering the profession in the US.

Will we see remakes of famous movies such as 'Bridge designed over the river Kwai' and 'Titanic' - a story of romance, love,  and brittle fracture under impact loading?

corus

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Fantastic! Only in the US!

I love the idea of those films, or rather a cinema fill of the people,who might like to go and see them!! Imagine the general hubub as they whisper to each other subtle changes that they might implemented or worse still, the quality and grammar used in the title credits!

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Consider the source...

The supposed "...dramatic decline in the number of students entering [engineering] in the US" is due soley to the fact that real estate, finance and "management" pay a heck of a lot better from the start than does engineering. Also, it's less work in school for a bigger payoff.

People become successful engineers because it's what they want to do and what thye've wanted to do all their lives.

The best portrayal of a Civil Engineer on film I've seen was in September Affair - everyone should see it.

RE: How bad is it in the US?


 'Bascule Bridge Designed over the River Kwai', now there's a real reason to see the remake!

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: How bad is it in the US?

When I watched the Hollywood Apollo 13 film the bits that pissed me off were the cuts to the "scientists" trying to find solutions.  They were all dorks (sweaty fat blokes with slide-rules).  As it happened, (where I live) a documentary about the event was aired on a different channel just after said film.  That documentary was ace.  It portrayed the engineers much more like the ones I work with and know.  Clever people solving hard problems under pressure.

Maybe Hollywood has us all pigeon-holed already: "Give me 5 engineers, including one super-fat one - make them all extra nerdy!".

RE: How bad is it in the US?

SomptingGuy
You need to watch Mythbusters especially the ones on the Hollywood myths. The tank blowing up in Jaws in the sharks mouth. People being shot and being thrown back by the impact of the bullet. These are Hollywood's depiction of what "they" think the public will believe. There aretons of examples of the deceptions.

However they portray and engineer in a movie is what the filmmaker wants to give to the public.

People remember the bad events; airplane crashes, bridges falling, ships sinking and the like. People don't care the elevator doesn't fail, the car starts and runs every time, the sewage magically goes into the sewer never to be seen again, video games are great, the air conditioner keeps us cool, and of course what would life be like without electricity. Engineers did all the good things and the bad things yet the public only remembers the spectacular failures.


RE: How bad is it in the US?

I have noticed for some time in the US many news stories
where ENGINEERS are prominent in the text.

When this started it struck me as odd because it seemed out
of place given that prior to the time you never heard a
mention of an enginner,  even in the 90's tech boom.
Now glowing tv,magazine,newspaper articles can be found
glorifying the profession. Even recently with the Shuttle
trouble, the ones working on the problem were Engineers.
It use to allways be Scientist that did this work.

Where does it come from and why??

RE: How bad is it in the US?

In a number of ways, I think this thread ties back to the thead: The public's view of our profession in the US.  Is the perception because of how engineers are portrayed by Hollywood, or are they portrayed in that light because that's what the customer expects to see.  It's not so much a matter of what the filmmaker wants to give to the public, it's what the public will pay to see.

What is the most efficient way to alter the public's perception of the profession?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Engineers are practically invisible on American TV.

I can't think of a single human character on any current or recent fictional TV shows set in modern America who is an engineer. As far as TV writers are concerned, engineers don't exist. It's a bit ironic that the workers who invented TV are never shown on it.

I do not count science fiction shows such as "Stargate" or "Star Trek" because they occur mainly on alien planets or in the future. I also don't count documentary-style shows such as "Mythbusters" (Discovery channel) or "Modern Marvels" (History channel).

The only two characters I can think of who might qualify are cartoons: Dilbert (an actual engineer who is a stereotypical nerd) and Homer Simpson (a nuclear "engineer" who isn't qualified or competent).

Small wonder that our kids have negative impressions about engineering and science. Whenever they watch cartoons they learn that only dorks want to study science and engineering.

Can anyone else name a few more characters? Perhaps I'm just not watching enough TV :)

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Closest I can think of are the mathematician and physicist that play on Numbers.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Ya, but that math guy on Number3 is a real phony in my book...the guy is simply designed to be a schoolgirl gushing teen heart-throb - the kind of guy who is a hero and doesn't know it...real cute and totally cool and very very sensitive.  There's always a female graduate student standing next to him in which the viewing audience of gals can identify with.

Anyone like this guy would not be a math wizard - they'd be a folk singer or artist....right brain vs. left brain if you get my drift.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

I'll take your word for it, as I don't watch the show.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Homer ain't no engineer, he's a safety tech.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: How bad is it in the US?

I don't think MacGyver was a licensed engineer but I consider him a very good engineer.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Homer was a lot of things.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

But not an engineer.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Do any of you US members watch 'American Chopper'? It's become something of a cult with British kids and I guess I watch it from time to time. Is what these guys do engineering, or art? Some of the lads at work think that the bikes are amazing pieces of engineering, but I personally think it is art with one or two bits of bought-in engineering thrown on. I'm not quite sure whether a Harley engine counts as engineering either, or if it's some form of agricultural technology...
                                                                                         

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Say, did you see the one where they made the drag bike?  They were talking about cutting away some of the frame to make room for the gas tank, which sounded like some terrible engineering to me, but then I had to leave the motel room.  What came of that?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Can't remember the specific episode but they all kinda blur into one: the lippy kid argues with his gorilla dad; the dopey kid forgets something important and gets shouted at; the painter saves the day and is revered like some latter-day minor deity. In the mean time they 'design' a bike without use of a calculator or computer, or even an pencil and paper. They chop out lots of important structural elements from the frame to mount an antiquated design of engine while making the contraption look pretty/menacing/ugly/silly. Every time. Yawn...

I don't think the Japanese or Italian motorcycle industries will be losing sleep at nights!!

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: How bad is it in the US?

OK now I will date myself,
Fred McMurry in "My 3 Sons" he was an aeronautical engineer.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

you're right monkeydog, (okay, i'll date myself too)
but other screen shots of "dad at the office, answering the phone call from home" he could've been an accountant, or a lawyer ...

btw, i like dilbert ... i've lived most of the earlier cartoons ... mostly as dilbert, sometimes as the boss !?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

what about jimmy stewart in "no highway in the sky" ?

actaully there's a renaissance guy for you, no i mean neville shute ... design engineer on aero engines, owned his own airplane company (Airspeed), designed his own planes, then wrote stories about engineering and other things ...

RE: How bad is it in the US?

How about that guy on "I Dream of Genie” the master, was he an engineer?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: How bad is it in the US?


No, JR was an astronaut in that TV show.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

While looking for other TV engineer roles, I came across the following article:  The CSI Effect.  Of particular note is the following quote from that article, "Meanwhile, university forensics programs are seeing a greater influx of students than ever before.".  If there is a cause-effect relationship, as indicated in this article: 'CSI' Spurs Forensic Academics, then it makes perfect sense that "glamorizing" engineering professionials in TV and movies may spur interest in engineering careers.

I'm still not sure if it's a good idea, but I think I understand the objective and motivation.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Calvin's dad (Calvin and Hobbes comic strip) is a patent attorney, leading me to believe that he's an ME with a JD.

Powers Boothe plays a dam engineer in the "Emerald Forest." Damn him!

Perhaps the most intriguing engineer portrayal I can recall is  in the movie "Scorcerer." I cannot recall the actor's name, but his "role" is that of a Project Engineer - he's got a couple of scenes, one where he explains what the outlaws, led by Roy Scheider, must do (deliver nitro glycerine to an oilfield fire) and later when he cuts a check...

RE: How bad is it in the US?

I don't know if Beaver's dad was an engineer in civilian life, but he was a seebee.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

On the other hand, Hollywood portrays scientists as either absent-minded professors or madmen trying to take over the world.  So engineers could have it worse...

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

John Wayne - in "The Fighting SeaBees".

...bullets flying and JW yelling, "Get that backhoe over here now!"

RE: How bad is it in the US?

For the people that has kids, Kim Possible’s (Disney) father is a rocket scientist, that can come close to an Aeronautical Engineer.  

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Space Cowboys - at least on of them was an engineer that I can remember (the one who had to memorize the eye exam, can't remember the actor's name).  For that matter, seems like Clint Eastwood was also an engineer type.  None of the ones in that movie were the typical geek portrayal.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Of course Hollywood wouldn't poke fun at scientist like in "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids". Or would they? I think its a communist plot. Maybe we can reanimate McCarthy.

Holy Cow Batman. Dr Freeze is on the loose again. Another mad scientist.

Dr. Frankenstein, if you don't call that engineering what is it.

George Jetson worked at Spacely's Sprockets. Not sure if he was an engineer but its close enough.

Grandpa Munster was another mad scientist.

I know Hollywood would never pull the wool over the public's eyes but there has been a female impersonator on television and in the movies for 50 YEARS. Not a supporting actor/actress but the STAR. But of course you know whom I'm talking about. This STAR gave birth on television even though the STAR was a male.


Of course everybody knows its eissaL.

Hollywood at its finest.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

You're going to the dogs, BillPSU...

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Stress Guy, Donald Sutherland was the structural engineer in Space Cowboys, and he was the one that gets all the women!

RE: How bad is it in the US?

I don't think that being portrayed as a womanizer is a positive image for an engineer or for any man. Don't get sucked in by the "Hollywood" view of maleness.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

How about Office Space?  Weren't they software engineers?  And the stapler guy... hmmm... what was he...?

Ocean's 11 had some computer hacking, as well as Mission Impossible.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Besides Fred McMurray's My Three Sons, he was also in a movie about tunneling in NYC - sorry - it was one I saw too many years ago and don't have the name.  Good movie, though - collapsing tunnel situation.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

There was an engineer which saved the lives of the crew several time Montgomery Scott or as he is better known as Scotty on the original Star Trek.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

BigH,
That was Sylvester Stalone in the tunnel movie.
Also, on USA network “The 4400” has a geeky type of guy (portrays and an engineer) that is slowly morphing as un-geeky to a romantic relationship with the good looking female cop on the show.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Wasn't Jerry Lewis in the Nutty Professor a Chemist?

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Brian Keith on "A Family Affair" was a Civil Engineer

RE: How bad is it in the US?

is this how bad it is in the US ... that we need to find media models ?

perhaps it's better that way.  people who want to join our profession will ... look at ourselves.  people who want to do engineering will find a way, maybe that's an initiative test !?  and if people can make more money doing something else (like issuing IPOs or tele-marketing), let them; i expect that most of us are happy in our jobs (if we weren't we'd be selling IPOs) despite the non-engineering things we have to put up with.

and if john q. public thinks more highly of lawyers and accountants, let him ... we know the truth ! (well, our truth).

and if we are stylised as nerds ... remember nerds are becoming fashionable ! ... are we going to side-step our claim to popularity ?

i am an engineer, even if i don't have a pocket protector or an iron ring; and i'm proud to be an engineer, even if other people think i'm "nerdy".

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Back to an earlier theme in perhaps another thread--how the public perceives you has a lot to do with how much you can get paid, and how much effect you (or your profession) can have on laws such as those governing pecking order between engineers & architects.  Much as we might like to think we're above caring about what others think, real life dicatates that we can't afford to be.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: How bad is it in the US?

A star for you HgTX

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: How bad is it in the US?

One of the largest surface engineering conferences, the International Conference on Metallurgical Coatings and Thin Films, has seen a drop off in attendance in recent years.  The meeting is held in the US (San Diego), so you would think it would be due to a drop in international travel.  Not the case -- the drop off has been in attendees from the US.  There may be other reasons for this, but I think the public perception of technical personnel has led many managers to try to increase profits by reducing funds for scientists and engineers to attend technical meetings.  How many of you reading this have been prevented from attending a meeting in the past few years that you would have been able to go to in the past?

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

I have, but it's a state government thing.  A lot of state governments can't understand why anyone would possibly have any legitimate reason to travel outside the state.  Forget professional development, forget participation in specification committees so you actually have some say in the documents that govern you...

My state is relatively lenient as far as that go.  It comes in cycles and we hit bottom a couple of years ago and are now better.  Other states sometimes won't let their employees travel out of their own districts, so even if a meeting were held in their state but another city, they wouldn't be allowed to attend.

Small-minded people.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: How bad is it in the US?


My company routinely posts/emails information on useful conferences and seminars, but then suggestes that we pay for it ourselves.  I have a philosophical objection to that, so I don't go.

I think all this whining about how engineers are portrayed is pitiful.  As an architect, look who I've got as TV role models.

Wilber Post was an architect consigned to design homes from a working barn, and he talked to his horse.

Then there's Mike Brady......did he ever actually DO anything?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Didn't Mike Brady design a factory shaped like an open powder compact for a make up company?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Mike Brady was an architect, but not too good considering he designed their house with 2 bedrooms for 6 kids.

On the conferences I've been prevented from going to technical conferences related to our process machinery, so salesman who have nothing to do with the processing of our products, but the applications of the finished products, can go play golf with each other.  Their not at all interested in the seminars or vendor booths and have no clients there to meet.   

RE: How bad is it in the US?

casseopeia,

I can see why have a philosophical objection.  The company wants something extra at your expense.  Realistically, companies can not afford to send all of their technical staff to all of the seminars related to their industry.  But, I expect a company to pay for at least the following:  License renewal fees, at least one paid membership for a professional society/organization, designated number of paid seminars per year (at their discretion, they can choose the number and maximum fees).

Didn't Matt Dillon play this character from There's Something About Mary who pretended to be an architect?  He was pretty good actually when he came out of his car with all those "blueprints".

RE: How bad is it in the US?

djv,
Mike Brady may be smarter then you think.  If you had 6 kids living with you, wouldn't you want to make their stay as uncomfortable and short as possible?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Good point monkeydog.  He even made them all share a bathroom.  And letting cousin Oliver stay with them really proved he wanted to make them uncomfortable.  But those kids could've been his meal ticket with that "Sunshine Day" song.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

As someone with 5 kids (4 teenagers) let me give monkeydog a star! I constantly work at giving them incentives to be upstanding, self sufficient, members of the community so that I will have some hope of not having to feed them for ever.

People complain about the price of petrol, but when you buy 10 gallons of milk a week a $3.00 a gallon that racks up too...

RE: How bad is it in the US?

sms,

Have you considered buying a cow?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Wow vooter another incentive to move out. Having to milk the family cow.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Brat Pitt used a civil engineering firm as his cover in Mr. and Mrs. Smith

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: How bad is it in the US?

SMS

Buy some goats to milk.  They do a great job of keeping the yard mowed as well.  You just change where you have them staked out.  Your kids will have a daily chore of milking a goat with less chance of getting hurt by being kicked or stepped on by the cow.

I grew up with neighbors that had goats for milking.  There is nothing better than fresh (cold) sweet goats milk for your cereal.  It will save you on the sugar bills too.  Fresh cows milk is also a lot sweeter than the processed stuff they sell in the stores.  Your kids can learn to churn butter, and seperate cream.

I am ready to move out of the city limits myself.

I can easily make 5 times what I do as an engineer by just training retrievers for duck hunting, rescue work, and as drug dogs.  Its crazy......   I wish I knew about all of this before going to college.  

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Didnt Michael Douglas play a disgruntled engineer with an AR15??  Can't remember the movie title though....

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Falling Down

RE: How bad is it in the US?

It was called, FALLING DOWN

Wes C.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Sms,

Sheeps milk is pretty good to. I have three. And they make a great Cheese.... (plus my dog likes to heard them)

Wes C.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

your dog likes their bleating ?

RE: How bad is it in the US?

bah bah bah...

Wes C.

RE: How bad is it in the US?

Corus,

This should've raised your eye brows

"According to the New York Times, the US military is paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to send scientists on a screenwriting course in Los Angeles, with the aim of producing movies and television shows that portray scientists in a flattering light."

According to the New York Times which really means it was a slow news day and we most likely made it up or talked to some mess hall private at West Point.



RE: How bad is it in the US?

One other thing Hollywood is not reality here in America.  It's some place students go to try to get their big break into TV/Film after they just flunked out of engineering school.  I have family in England and they always ask me is America like what they see in Hollywood films.  Eh, no! Dalton 75% of those films are not even filmed in the U.S.A.  America is just like England populated with normal folks.

A tad of topic but.....I couldn't help myself.

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