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Why can't they keep it short?
9

Why can't they keep it short?

Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
Not a new problem I'm sure, but I have had it.

The measure of engineering reports and presentations is not in the sheer volume but the actual content.

There seems to be a percentage of the population that believes that you have to throw everything remotely concerned with your activity in the one document and that the client is charged according to the mass of paper generated.

I have recently been in on a team that asked a consultant to go back and give us a report that actually addressed the reason they were engaged in the first place.  Their solution: add two more appendices of barely relevant information.

I think it's high time engineering professionals rose up and took on the oppression of insomnia inducing seven line sentences.  Confront the evil of people who cover their incompetence with papery obfuscation, stand tall and proudly yell to the streets:

'I DID SOMETHING, THIS IS HOW I DID IT, AND THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS'

Can I get an Amen?

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

2
Two words: Executive Summary

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
True - an well written summary is a good start, as long as it's followed up with a relevant, concise body.

Start violins
I just hate being up at 10:15 on a weeknight knee-deep in a report that has to be read properly because the relevant information is scattered randomly throughout the entire text.
Fade violins

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Yes, justkeep... A summary is a must.

I do not agree that reports shall be kept short. It all depends, of course, on what "short" means. I think that a short report is ten - twenty lines of writing. And I wouldn't call that a report at all.

Keeping a report short leaves a lot of room for assumptions and misunderstandings. I tend to write "long" reports - three to five pages to present the result of a typical troubleshooting assignment. I include: Date, Site, Machinery, Contact persons, Background (what led to the situation), Tests or observations made, Measurement results, Interpretation, Recommendations (or Action taken), How to avoid the problem in the future, References for further study. And I put a Summary in the beginning of it all.

My reports are longer than most others that often keep them in a "Drive unstable, Adjusted Gain, Works now" (depending on problem, of course) style. Why the drive became unstable. If there were any mechanical or process reasons. If someone had tried to make the controller "crisper". If there were problems with mains etcetera is very often left out.

Sometimes, there is no need for a report. Just a short note that something has been done - and that short note can be written directly in the log-book of the machine/factory. But when a report is needed, it shall be complete and relevant.

It would be interesting to know what kind of reports you (lewtam) are having problems with. I mean; there are reports - and there are reports.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

2
People don't generally like to read critically.  That is why I hit 'em with the vitals right off the bat.  Supporting data and details come later and deeper, for those interested.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Has anybody ever seen/read A River Runs Through It?  There is a great scene in the movie where the Presbyterian minister is teaching his children to write.  He keeps sending them back to rewrite "again, half as long".

True Tick Tale...
I once got an "A" on an essay that was assigned to be 5 pages, but I only had 3.  The professor noted that she appreciated not having to wade through an extra two pages of padding.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Dealing with bean counters? Are you Tick?

A responsible manager or department head (I still think that my customers are responsible - but there's room for doubt, sometimes) should be able to absorb the contents of a report about his critical equipment.

Wrote this as an answer to your 8:48 posting. Agree with your 8:51 post.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
Skogs - I totally agree, the required length of report is dependant on your situation.

I have no problem with a document or presentation of any length as long as they get to the point and stick to it.  I put a lot of effort into making my communication as effective as possible, and I consider it a point of laziness when others don't.  I don't mean people who are naturally poor communicators through lack of education etc, but the people who should know better and just fire everything they have at you and hope that some of it sticks.

My question should have been - 'Why can't they keep it relevant?'

The reports that I'm wading through now are the ones that pushed me over the edge. I deal a lot with what is called in Australia a 'Government Owned Corporation' which combines the absolute best of the people handling skills of big business with the competence and initiative of government.  The reports generated by this corporation and its obligatory consultants would be laughable if I didn't have to read them.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
TheTick - From your previous posts (not just this thread or forum) I've never seen you waste a word.

Ever thought of passing the wisdom on?

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Good discussion. And needed.

I sometimes write overly long reports. I usually tell my customer that it is long because we (he and me) are in a hurry. When asked if he could wait another day and get a shorter report - he usually doesn't understand what I mean.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

There are some customers (and I dare say, some University professors) who still weigh a report rather than read it.  For these people, I've found a big box marked "Appendix A" often suffices.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

   I told in college that a physicist named Blasius handed in a doctoral thesis on fluid mechanics that was only one page.  

   I found some of his stuff on the internet, but no mention of the thesis.

                         JHG

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

I concur, verbosity sucks. Less is more.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
Drawoh - I did a small project back at university on Blasius' treatment of boundary layer theory.  Even his mathematical analysis was extremely well thought out and brief - two, maybe three steps from a differential equation that classical mathematics could not solve to a computational solution easily applied to today's analysis.

Skogs - I'm the same as you, if there is pressure to get something done fast, then I can't refine things as much as I would like. Exec Summary should still hit hard though.

SomptingGuy - I'd plead guilty to that one as well (appendix padding), but only when people have preconceptions about how large a document should be, and ask for 'more' without being specific.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

The problem with engineering reports is that you need to include the information, a description of the processes and the calculations you used to reach your conclusion otherwise in a year or two nobody will have a clue what you're talking about or if your conclusion is valid.

You can never predict which area of a report will need to be changed in the future or where the questions of validity will arise, so you have to put everything in.

Particularly if you've half an eye on the law suit that's coming.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Lawsuits... Speaking of long documents... Have you seen the size of contracts that Attorneys are putting together these days?
My wife works in commercial law, and it takes 25 pages to say "Joe is selling Bob 12 acres of land for 1.5 million dollars."

David

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

I would agree that brevity is fine, but I'd prefer clear organization over brevity any day.

Generally, my reports deal with forensic structural issues, like a building facility assessment.  I usually follow the pattern of:

Observations (what is observed)
Conclusions (what do the observed things mean)
Recommendations (what do we do about it all)

Also, I think bandraoi is on to something - most of my reports do get lengthy, but keep in mind that your report is an engineering document that should stand on its own.  That means that you should provide the necessary backup info, etc. so that anyone picking up the report can understand and evaluate the findings without having to go dig up countless other documents to understand it.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Recall the old saw about writing and ladies' dresses...

Quote:

"...long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting."

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

What if you're writing an exposé?

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

Quote:

JAE (Structural) 8 Aug 05 19:16  
. . . so that anyone picking up the report can understand and evaluate the findings without having to go dig up countless other documents to understand it.
Or come back to you, the originator.  Fielding questions may well take more time to answer the second time around than would have been spent addressing them in the original report when you were fully involved with the subject matter.
Norm
 

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

My high school english department thoroughly emphasized the importance of content over weight.  They called the extra fluff "dead wood" because it didn't prove or justify the purpose of the essay/report; the superfluous words or sentences also made for some pretty borish material.  
This thread could also relate to the "Write Right" thread about abusing the passive voice.  You can cut out a lot of extra words when you write in the active voice.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

In high school I once had to do a report which was required to be at least five pages long. After padding the content as much as I thought I could get away with, I began typing it. As I neared the bottom of the fifth page I realized that I would be within a few words of the full five pages.

My closing sentence was, "I believe the area has a very, very, very, very,

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

bright future."

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

FDR ran WW2 on the basis on one page memos.

His theory was that if you could not explain it in one page then you did not understand it yourself.

In the early days of computer spell and grammar checking I had a program called Grammatik. This was an add on to provide the functionality. It would give you the reading ease score of your text. The accompanying manual also stated that 7th or 8th grade was usually sufficient for most documents.

I can understand n technical writing to go above this level because it is in part based on the average number of syllables per word, but it should be a good guide.

Word can also show the same statistics. Click tools->options>Spelling and Grammar Tab and check the box for show readability statistics.

This is a 7.9


When I was in grad school one of our final courses had a group project. This work involved doing a personnel audit at some companies and then comparing the HR policies to each of the businesses and to the prediction from the model. Our group was three engineers with very similar writing styles. It was my turn on this to write the summary and we used the same outline for each individual company and for the summation.

We had just fewer than 30 pages in total. We got an A and a notation from the professor that we must have worked hard at getting the writing style so similar that it looked like it was written by one person.

One group of arts men had over 300 pages. The professor said that he stopped reading after 100 pages and that group failed this project and the course. One of the guys had already had one C+ (which was a failure) and since he had two failures was required to drop out of the program. This was after 2 years and within days of finishing the program.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

very early in my career i sensed the problem of long reports...
since then, i have a template for reporting...
as you guys mentioned... the first thing is: a less than 15 line executive summary. double spaced and sentences 1.5 line or shorter.

then... each an every paragraph is numbered... pretty much like the ASME codes... 1. title... 1.1. item  1.1.1. issue... etc. thought that if those guys chose that format... they had a pretty good reason for it.
also, each sentence is 1.5 lines or shorter.

it serves many purposes...
1. gives you an order, you organize your thoughts
2. when a question comes about the report... the answer generally is, for example:
please see paragraph: 2.3.1.4.a

after such an answer... there are usually no more questions.

in today's business environment... all the communications are bastardized... it is so easy to write emails and copy 20 people...
in the 80's when telex was the fastest communication available and faxes were just starting... sending a msg to 20 people was a major thing...
today... all critical emails must be 10 lines or shorter... because almost nobody reads beyond the 10th line...

this posting is getting very long... if you've made it this far... i thank you for your patience.

:oP

saludos.
a.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

I recently read through some test data and reports that we had contracted out to another company. In the middle of a 23 page burn test report was the sentence:

It is pretty outside. I wish i was outside, not stuck in here.

then about 4 pages later was the guy sitting next to me smells. Why wont he ever shower

i kid you not... it's a true story!

Wes C.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

abeltio,

I agree with your sumation, with special regard to emails. A star for you.
As discussed here and in many other fora before, it is very easy to send meaningless replies (to one or many) with copius text.  When you get bombarded with these, it hides the important ones (which too usually don't get to the point near the beginning either).  I am a culprit many times a day of not really taking in past 10 to 15 lines unless it is slapping me in the face.

wes616,
I hope you at least acknowledged (not necessarily complained) to the author, so he knew that you did read it, as he obliviously thought no one would

Regards,
ASM

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

(OP)
Wes - I've come across a few similar comments in correspondence that the author obviously meant to change/delete before the final draft.  Most memorable is a comment that 'the whole plant has gone to sh*t', after detailing a systemic lack of maintenance at the plant in question.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

RE: Why can't they keep it short?

lewtam - was it a sewage treatment facility?
(sorry, had to get that in)

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