Job Outsourcing
Job Outsourcing
(OP)
Greetings All. This topic came up on another thread and I thought it warranted it's own.
What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas. Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $. I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive. Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population? Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help.
So abstract food for thought. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas. Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $. I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive. Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population? Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help.
So abstract food for thought. I'd love to hear your thoughts.





RE: Job Outsourcing
Licensing tends to be very gingoistic and will often disregard good experience from another country while honoring mediocre experience from the home country. If there is a problem, licensing is not the answer to it (it may very well be the answer to a different problem).
Back to your first question. The internet makes the information-world a very small place. A company that has a task that can be done with a lower total cost by one group vs. another group is irresponsible to use the higher cost group if all other things are indeed equal. The trick for U.S., U.K., Canadian, etc. engineers is to make certain that all other things are not equal. Know more about the company, the product, the market than anyone can possibly know from a half a world away. Be responsive, understand the nuances of the questions you are being asked. Find a niche that can't be filled from Taipei (expert witness, forensic engineering, facilities operation/maintenance come to mind) and your risk of beeing outsourced will diminish.
If you see your contribution as "generic engineering", then employeers/clients will also see it that way and price shop. If you upgrade your contribution to "essential" then your chance of being outsourced to overseas (or at all) becomes very small.
I'm an oil & gas facilities engineer. A few years ago all of my peers were being looked at as a luxury that couldn't be afforded at current product prices. My "peers" had largely spent careers sitting at their desks waiting for someone to bring them projects to engineer. There are hundreds of consulting firms serving oil & gas that were delighted to fill that niche -- a lot of folks who had poorly defined their role were on the streets. On the other hand the few of us who had gone in search of activities that needed us (we defined the problem, developed the solution, acquired funding, designed the project, and managed the construction) were considered essential to the operation and our jobs were never threatened.
My receipe for success is to know more, do more, teach more, learn more, and perform better than is expected. Never pass up a chance to learn a related discipline (as a facilities engineer I was unique in being a certified reserves estimator and an instructor in Gas Well Deliquification, those qualifications came through seeking out the opportunities).
Quit whining about being outsourced and start making it impossible to outsource you.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
RE: Job Outsourcing
RE: Job Outsourcing
WE go to Walmart to buy cheap Chinese toys and electronics; that's outsourcing. WE did that 40 yrs ago with Japanese toys and electronics; and 20 yrs ago with Korean toys and electronics.
You might argue that it's Walmart that's causing the problem, since Walmart used to make a big point about "Made in the US" in their ads. But WE drove Walmart into being the largest retailer in the Solar System because we buy into their concept of continual price reductions that can only be achieved by outsouring.
Even our defense products are heavily outsourced because we can get cheaper weapon parts from elsewhere.
Now that WE are being treated like cheap Japanese toys; who's to blame?
TTFN
RE: Job Outsourcing
You make some excellent points. I agree that filling a position that is impossible to outsource is a good way to cover your own @$$. I have that luxury since I do water/wastewater and no one residing abroad will ever be the resident engineer for the treatment plants I'm involved with. However, I have friends that are in industry and manufacturing and are not as lucky. Please do not assume I am whining because I am concerned with topics relevant to our profession. I am interested in other's ideas and experiences...the purpose of this forum.
RE: Job Outsourcing
Get yourself a transfer to Prague (or some other "offshore" location. Your salary may seem like peanuts compared with previous jobs, but it'll buy more in the local shops.
RE: Job Outsourcing
RE: Job Outsourcing
... or set yourself up as the local (respected name) contact for companies looking to outsource work, and funnel that work to your associates in Prague. I'd guess that software development performed in Prague but directed from the UK would result in more rapid improvements to the software than could be achieved by local developers only, and would allow greater responsiveness to client needs. A similar approach would probably work for some parts of engineering design and analysis - a local consultancy can put together a quote which captures the needs of a local client, then direct the work remotely while it is performed in Prague, and prepare a report that is well written in the local tongue (passive voice, no doubt) to present to the client. This approach, of course, dramatically reduces the number of engineers needed in the UK/US (which is how we got on the subject, after all), but it probably works out pretty well for the ones who run the show.
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We can't? Are you sure? What is the basis of this statement? Have you looked at unemployment statistics for engineers? What kind of engieers?
RE: Job Outsourcing
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If you look at the US Government's labor statistics it does not lead one to believe that there is a crisis of unemployment in the engineering business. The company I work for hired 40 new engineering grads this past May, so from my perspective things don't look too bad. I am just curious where the doom and gloom perspective on engineering is coming from.
BTW when I graduated I had no offers, I drove a truck the summer and sent out letters to companies every evening. I graduated in May and started my new career in September (that was 1984). There are always cycles when hiring volume is up and when it is down, but people with engineering degrees do get hired.
RE: Job Outsourcing
I graduated in December 1994 and the job environment was slow. I had many interviews from Sept - Dec 1994 (HP, Honda, CalTrans & Quickie). I finally landed a job in Feb 96 and the rest is history. All of my friends from school had jobs before they graduated due to knowing people, or working internships.
RE: Job Outsourcing
IMO, outsourcing comes from (from my experience):
1. Every year more business men/women and professionals coming here from other countries. They don't have a second thought about outsourcing.
2. More laziness here in USA at work.
3. Businesses forced to go elsewhere because of the rising cost's in the USA ... fuel, imports, booming various energy & environmental cost's, various insurance.
4. Greed.
... & more.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
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RE: Job Outsourcing
When I graduated in 1984 most of the grads didn't have job offers either. Some took many months to get anything. So as you can see its nothing new. The top grads get picked up right away as do those with contacts. The rest struggle.
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It is not my intent to get into a pissing match with you about labor statistics. Nor did I ever say that there was a crisis in engineering labor. Obviously I found a job with little problem. Simply, hearing calls for more engineering grads when I can look around the room and point at 1/2 my graduating class (university of missouri, and university of missouri-rolla) that were still unemployed made little sense to me.
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As long as people in the US value the bottom line more than purchasing domestic goods or service, there will be outsourcing. As long as it costs more to pay someone here to go to work and complain than it does to pay someone foreign to go to work and do a damn good job there will be outsourcing. It's hard to compete with someone who truly lives for his or her job, often very literally.
RE: Job Outsourcing
Now back to the rest of your starting post...
"What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas."
Probably very little, in my opinion it is time to get over it, accept that we have a world economy and that tasks will move to the places where it is cheapest and most efficient to do them, and get on with our lives.
"Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $."
It is always about dollars, why should it be any different with engineering.
"I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive."
You know that other nations graduate more engineers annually? Really? Where did you get that information? What data do you have to back that up?
I have a tendancy to agree with the CEO of GE. BTW he is in a pretty good position to know, he actually hires a lot of engineers. But the trend that I see is that the majority of young people are not interested in studying engineering. It's too hard. But I will also admit that this is a unscientific observation based on hanging out with teen age kids at our church youth group. I don't have hard facts to back it up.
"Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population?"
I think I have already beat this one up...but again, I like facts, feelings often lead you astray....
"Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help."
I'm not worried about my job being shipped overseas, and my experience with engineers from overseas has been generally positive. I think that requireing professional licensing is probably a disadvatage to the average American engineer. If I had to bet between the average Indian or Chinese engineer vs an average engineer schooled and raised in the US as to who could pass the PE exam, my money would not be on the American.
So there you go, if you are starting a database, you now have one data point...Please, please, don't try to extrapolte based on this one lonely point.
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I appreciate your input, however, I didn't realize I'd need footnotes and a documented source list for everything I have ever read about the subject. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about the dynamics of the engineering economy, one of the reasons for starting this thread.
For your first question: I already told you what the basis of my opinion was from the first time you asked me on my orginal reply to your question 1 Aug 05 8:14 and again 1 Aug 05 12:18. If you are trying to point out that is not triple checked government funded study about engineering employement rates, point taken. "Feelings lead you astray" -- very Jedi of you.
Is the National Society of Professional Engineers crediable?
http://www.nspe.org/etweb/18-03overseas.asp
As for the relative graduation rates of US student to the rest of the world, I dunno. I read it some where. You can google as easily as I. This is the first one I found.
http:
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As a recent graduate I can not firmly state the current status of engineering jobs for everyone. I agree that it is still difficult directly out of school to get a job but things seem to be changing here. I personally have had a job since well before my graduation (2+ years). Although, this may not be typical as I took 6 years in the middle of school to join the military.
I will say that most of the facts that you find online will be incorrect at the surface. Unfortunately when you look for the unemployment of "engineers" you will get statistics for those without degrees. Even IEEE speaks of "software engineers" in the link you give. They also urge for more studies and the waters are murky.
What I will say is that there are more jobs opening up every day. I recently checked some of the online job centers for a feel of the market and found no less than 4 jobs posted every day in engineering requiring a degree. usually the number was around 10...daily.
IMHO much of the problem is not in the job market but those trying to fill it. I hate to admit it but many of the engineers I went to school with were substandard to say the least. They did however get good grades. The education system has been so squeezed by funding and the politically correct system of having "Team" classes that individuals don't get the experience they need. I can honestly say that half of the graduates should not have that piece of paper.
Many of you may not believe it but almost 100% of engineering programs in the US will allow you to graduate with all failing test scores. Usually the tests in a class make up less than 50% of the grade. This allows those who are good at copying problems out of the book to get a B with a test average in the 60's....not the kind of people I want working with me.
Also the group classes promote the 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people attitude. I have heard many people brag that they "didn't have to do a thing and will still be getting an A because ...... did all the work and is really good at this stuff". I can't tell you how many times in my senior year I had to remind people what F=mA means....and don't get me started on the math.
So when you say there is a 7% unempolyment rate in engineers I say "that sucks". Because personally I believe it should be around 30%. Scary to think that 23% of the engineers out there are probably incompetant.
We will get beyond all this when people stop going into engineering as a stepping stone into management.
RE: Job Outsourcing
that stuff about group class--dead on. deep fried solid gold. a star for you. Also, unemployment figures reflect those activly searching for a job, not all without one. And the thing about the nubmer including non-degreed engineers is a whole different topic I don't think you want to touch! LOL
RE: Job Outsourcing
From your NSPE article we can conclude that off shoring is a problem for EE and Computer Engineers, and has resulted in a 7% unemployment rate for people in that profession. But that does not represent all engineering does it? I would be the first to agree that there are certain segments and specialties of engineering that are being impacted by offshoring. But that does not speak to all engineering, and what about the 93% that are still employed?
As for the second article, that just supports my gut feel that Americans are not entering engineering at the rate they used to, or even at the rate of some other countries. Now what does that say for the job prospects for experienced American engineers? It says that as the baby boom retires over the next 5 years or so, we will be in high demand, since there are not very many kids coming out of school, to fill the void. The only other way the void will be filled will be off shoring, or bringing in engineers from other countries.
But what happens if the Chinese and Indian economies really take off? There is in my opinion a good chance that all that engineering resource will get sucked up supporting their own economies, rather than proping up ours. That will just make US engineers even more in demand.
So all you doom sayers, get over your negativity, the future is so bright I gotta wear shades!
(How Jedi was that?)
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PZas: "We will get beyond all this when people stop going into engineering as a stepping stone into management."
I did my engineering degree at Imperial College (London). By definition there were no graduates with anything other than science and engineering degrees there. However, our annual careers fair was normally swamped by the accountant/management consultant/law firms. Their argument being that engineering graduates were typically more literate and numerate than the rest, and could solve practical problems. I doubt very much that the students embarking on engineering courses see engineering as a "stepping stone into management". I think that the non-engineering firms see engineers as highly employable graduates.
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So happy to please you. I feel as though you are going to grade my grammar next :)
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I beg to differ. As a bit of a throw back to older day I had a professor (about 70 years old) who made everyone in a senior class on polymers state if they had a job or not and what field said job was in, or where they were looking.
More than 50% wanted to work outside of engineering. And this was Texas ATM one of the schools that has had almost a 100% employment rate since the 50's. I couldn't believe it as half the class stood there and told everyone they never wanted to use engineering after they recieved their deploma. They talked endlessly about how much they ahted the math and didn't appreciate the problems. They were upset about the level of detail you had to go to in order to see good results.
Those of us who actually were in it for engineering were quite disgusted as they were taking seats that could be used for people who would represent the profession. And with ATM turning away over 80% of the applicants I am sure they could find decent people to fill the seats.
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Maybe the climate has changed in the 15 years since I graduated? And maybe there's a geographical difference too between where I am and where you are? In my university house-share of 4 engineers, I am the only one who still practises. Although the other three had plans to practise when they signed up for the course, cash and status lured them away when they finished.
- Steve
RE: Job Outsourcing
There have been many threads in these forums that start with an observation like "hey my uncle Joe got laid off due to off shoring" and then everyone posts doom and gloom statements about the end of engineering as we know it, with little or no constructive data or evidence to support that attitude.
If you do wish to pursue it, there is data out there, and right now it seems that there are conflicting conclusions. Several of the journals I read are bemoaning the coming crisis in hiring qualified technical workers as the baby boomers retire. Then there are articles in journals like the ASME and the NSPE, that warn that offshoring will make everyone unemployed. The reason for the conflicting conclusions is that engineering is not monolithic, when EE's have it good, ME's may have it bad. When automotive is in the dumps, aerospace might be doing great.
So what is the truth? The whole point of the exercise was to challenge your preconceived notions, rather than joining in the pity party.
RE: Job Outsourcing
RE: Job Outsourcing
Slowly, every country's economy is opening out and things are becoming more competitive everywhere, not just in the US. Perform or perish will be the new watchword in days to come, if not already. The boundaries of one's country is getting extended to the boundary of the world (a little exaggerated, though) and one can see people of many nationalities in most of the countries which are either developed or developing. Every developing country or under-developed country has been using lots and lots of things manufactured from a different country - yes, outsourced, since the developing countries were still not developed fully. Now, the roles are reversing. There's a lot of knowledge that has been shared over a period of time and it's time for the people in the developing countries to raise their standard or living, see better things and yes, in the process compete against the people from the developed countries, which was probably not happening in such a large scale.
HVAC68
RE: Job Outsourcing
http
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http://www.edn.com/article/CA529820.html
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The truth is no one knows if engineering in the US is going down the tubes, but I can say based on a rich history it is safe to bet that 20 years or even 100 years from now engineering will be alive and well in the USA.
Trade journals like Mechanical engineering don't help much either, almost every month there is some new take on the subject, with no real data, just opinions and impressions of writers that may not even be engineers, who generate articles with titles like "The End of ME." Amazing.
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Again, I choose to be positive. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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Consider my observations.
One of my friends has run his own business for about 15 years and has done extremely well, growing it from just him to about 20 people in a line of work where 1 and 2-man shops are most common. His business benefited greatly over the last couple of years because he hired several highly-educated foreign guys rather than hire additional US engineers and detailers. The low required compensation is only a small part of the reason it's worked so well. The main reason is the better work ethic displayed by these fellows. He practically has to order them to take lunch breaks and keep the AC below 90 degrees. They work like mad and get the results back to him faster than he can get here. They also study a lot in their off-hours and improve very quickly. The idea of smoke breaks or missing work for non-emergencies seems ridiculous to these guys.
This is quite a contrast to what I saw at every job I've had. Few engineers are willing to really study and develop technical skills on their own time and most seem to think they're entitled to an ownership track even if they're working 43.5 hours/week. It gets worse when we start talking about drafters and their late arrivals, early departures, smoke breaks, playing on the internet, personal phone calls, and personal e-mails.
Think of it from an owner's perspective and the source of the issue and the answers are very clear.
DBD
RE: Job Outsourcing
We all benefit from cheap prices for shoes, clothes, electrical goods etc because the manufacturing is outsourced, but we still want to earn top dollars.
Many years ago in the UK we had strong a manufacturing base but through bad work practices, complacency, labour problems it has largely disappeared.
In my field of work 30 years ago Japan was seen as a joke, only fit to produce novelty toys and junk. Now they produce some of the most reliable cars in the world and marques like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin and Jaguar are in foreign hands and our main stream companies have all disappeared. Pretty much the same applies to ship building, motorcycles, machine tools, electrical goods, measuring equipment, in fact you name it, it applies.
With communications now what they are location is far less of a factor in many fields of engineering and many countries will prosper as their skill base improves.
So are we all doomed, no. Those that stay innovative and offer more will still grow, those that think they have a god given right to charge top dollar and offer a second rate service will not, simple as that IMO.
Anyone who thinks his or her job is not in danger, it probably is. Anyone who thinks it is in danger and acts in a positive way are probably much safer. I have no facts to back this up, it is just my view.
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RE: Job Outsourcing
I wouldn't bet on that (apart from the fieldwork). We run engineering programs around the world (India, China, USA and Germany) from Oz, using telephones, faxes and video links. Oh and the world wide porn browser network.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Job Outsourcing
Let me offer you another perspective:
My current employer has quite a few foreign nationals in his employ. Many of these folks are challenged in a variety of ways when it comes to doing a good job (Linguistically, Culturally, Technologically, etc.). They do, however, work for less wages than USA born folks. Is it a wash? I don't know.
My current employer also treats his workers like a communist economy. You get very little additional reward for working hard. Most folks here have realized this and do just enough to keep their jobs. Why slave over your work when all you will get is 10% more pay than others who slack off and have a good time.
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This is a little off subject, but has anyone seen a university placement center with valid information about future employment or salaries?
No designer I know makes what the colleges are saying we are getting paid.
When my mother was in college she was told someone with a education degree would never be unemployed. Fifteen years later, she's never taught, our area is flooded with teachers.
-She and I are 4.0 students with highly coveted resumes. I can't imagine what the market looks like for those with less than stellar records.
In reference to out sourcing engineering. My company has recently hired a Latin American staff to help with our South American business. They all speak english, but obviously prefer their native tongue. It makes communication very difficult. I have to give these guys credit though. Most of them were educated in the US, and required to learn very difficult subjects taught in a language that was foreign to them. These guys are as smart as any of our American born engineers; they are also more dedicated. I say, if you can do the job, I don't care where you're from. If American's want their jobs, maybe they should start doing them right!
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Our career center averaged the numbers reported by grads. I'm inclined to think those that got well paying jobs were more likely to advise the school, thus skewing the average.
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Thanks
SC
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This would be a great thread all by itself! I feel your pain. Employer/employee relations makes for some incredibly complicated situations and strained relationships. At my last job, practically every person I knew was miserable, and our owners were good guys with good projects. I quit and came back to school. I work much harder and much longer hours now but I REALLLLY don't miss the whole employer/employee relationship thing. Overall, I'm happier. It takes a special attitude to work for somebody else effectively for years.
DBD
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"You get very little additional reward for working hard. Most folks here have realized this and do just enough to keep their jobs. Why slave over your work when all you will get is 10% more pay than others who slack off and have a good time."
Unquote
With due respects, this is probably one of the reasons for outsourcing. One set of guys just do their job. The other set of guys (you "may" read : outsourcing) do much more, take initiative, be pro-active, etc., etc. As an employer, which set of guys would you choose ?
HVAC68
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For many people a well paid job is reward in itself.
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I can't say that every college's employment data is in error. In fact my question was, is it common that the college's data is trumped up?
I can only say what I've seen, that the college I attended sold poor data to their students in an attempt to bolster specific programs.
I don't regret my degree, I got the first job I applied for; I'm still there, and I love my job. I didn't choose it for the money, but a lot of people do and they are sorely disappointed when they find out the real world isn't what colleges advertise.
And in reference to teaching... I said my area. She made it quite clear she had no intentions of relocating.
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http:/
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Look at where Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore were 30 yrs ago and who's doing that stuff now. The question will be who will take China's place in 20 yrs.
TTFN