×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Design Basics
4

Design Basics

Design Basics

(OP)
I posted this in another forum earlier and realize this was probably the more appropriate location.  If you come across it twice, I am sorry for the confusion.

I have a designer who is self-taught AutoCad.  In that respect, he is not bad, but he was never taught the basics of design.  Simple rules like eliminating doglegs, text size, hidden lines, scaling, and the like, are beyond his comprehension.  My attempts to teach him these concepts have not been embraced.  I have a dozen textbooks that describe these concepts, but this man is not going to read a book.  He also will not simply comply because I say it is so; he insists upon seeing why it is correct and necessary.  This has proven a difficult challenge since, as I mentioned, he will not read a book.  
Can anyone recommend some smaller texts where these guidelines might be complied with explanations of why this is proper practice?

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

ASME Y14.5M 1994 is a good place to start. If he does not want to follow it, it is a good time to find someone else. IMO.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

2
First off, we are talking about the basics of drafting, not design.

If you are in a position of leadership over him, and your engineering department has standard drafting practices established, he should follow.  If your engineering department does not have drafting practices established, it's well beyond the time to start to identify them.  Train your department to follow what has been established and agreed upon.  This would include standardized templates and settings for all software (AuotCAD) being used in the department.

Sounds like he needs to learn to step-off his high horse, remove his "designer" cap and put on his "drafter" cap if he wants to produce his own drawings.  If he can't understand the value of following industry standards as they are related to drafting practices, he has no business working with production drawings.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Design Basics

"Blueprint Reading Basics", by Warren Hammer.

One of my most frequently turned to references for drafting questions.  My first edition has a friendly orange cover, but I see on Amazon that the second edition has a nice sky blue cover.

I agree with the other responders, if he can't or won't follow industry or internal standards he is a liability, not an asset.

Document your attempts to teach him; when, what, how and the results to protect yourself when the time comes....

RE: Design Basics

MadMango a for your reply

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"There is no trouble so great or grave that cannot be much diminished by a nice cup of tea"  Bernard-Paul Heroux
 

RE: Design Basics

Sounds like a very difficult situation. With any program like Autocad, Solidworks, or any kind of simulation program, one has to have a strong desire to learn it. Otherwise they will fight you till they wear you down, and any difficulty or anything that goes wrong they will make sure you know it. I was there when cad came in and some of the guys on the board had to be told to use it or hit the gate. You never get full productivity out of them.

Like others are saying, if he won't open a book his mind is closed. Good luck.

RE: Design Basics

I have that problem. There are approx 10 users here that went to the same training I did several years ago and still can't cope with the basics. I am done with baby sitting them. I am now 95% finished with writing a SW/PDMW procedure to give them and wash my hands with daily training. I know if we were to ever have a layoff, I know who will most likely be staying and who is going.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
My solution would be to dismiss him and hire a greenhorn with drafting skills but no design or electrical knowledge.  If I could have someone who understood the basics of drafting and could operate AutoCAD, I can teach them everything they need to know about electricity.

However, this is not the challenge I have been given.  Perhaps I am asking the wrong question.  I have references for the standards that he needs to be practicing.  I can summarize them for him.  How do I get him to embrace them though?  Until now, every attempt at such has been met with resistance.  I have been told that those are antiquated rules that were only important before the computer age.  Do you have any suggestions on how I can explain why these are not just arbitrary rules intended to make the job more tedious.  Thus far, my best explanation has been to show him how much better the drawing looks if you follow these rules and how it is easier to read.  He is not getting it.

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

I would simply keep bleeding on his prints until they met the standards.  Don't sign off on them until they are correct.  Sooner or later he is going to get tired of working on the same drawing.  That is how I and many others learned proper drafting.  It may make the checker unpopular, but I owe my skills to those red marked prints and still think of those checkers with much appreciation.  It is unfortunate that in todays engineering environment drawing checkers are becoming a thing of the past.

RE: Design Basics

I agree with ewh. Also, after you have a correct drawing to your standards, make a copy of it and have him use it as a template.
You can also explain to him you are the boss and you have to follow company standards. If he doesn't like it, write him up, give him a warning.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

If the guy cannot do the job and does not want to learn show him the door, I am sure many others would jump at the opportunity.

If this is not an option and he insists on drawing without hidden lines and with dimensions crossing all over the show, let him take one of his drawings on the shop floor and be with the guy who is trying to build it.

I have always found those guys are more than happy to point out the error of my ways and what a fool I am

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
I have tried that one.  Our shop has been very quick to show him his errors.  The guy comes back upstairs and quickly dismisses their complaints as petty whining from uneducated minions.

I swear the guy is just dumb.  I can take the shops advice, dismiss the ridiculous complaints, and implement the valid concerns.  He is an all or nothing person, he either takes everything a person says without question, or dismisses every word they utter.  He completely lacks common sense or ability to reason.  I knew I should have been concerned when the guy sincerely asked me if I had a geniuses IQ.  The day I'm the smart one in the room is a scary day indeed.  

The obvious solution would be to release him, but my company does not do that.  Therefore, he must be retrained.  There is added urgency because my replacement will be hired in a number of weeks, and the idea of this man advising the new hire scares me beyond measure.

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

I guess you could try the approach that these standards are industry wide, and although many of your parts are made in-house, there ar instances were parts are sent to out vendors (not sure if this is your case, but it is ours).  By adhearing to industry standards, there is less chance of confusion, and more chance of getting what you have specified on the drawings from the vendor.

We had a new hire a long time ago, while we were still using AutoCAD.  He didn't like the color scheme we used for layers, so he changed all the colors to what he liked.  When it came time to print and plot the drawings, since the colors defined the line weights, everything printed terribly.  He then had to spend several weeks restoring all the prints to our corporate standards.

Standards: someone has already taken the time to figure something out and write it down.  You just need to know where to find them.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Design Basics

Well if he won’t listen and the company don’t want to do anything that only leaves two options, violence or promotion.

RE: Design Basics

What state is this guy from? and does HE have education levels that entitle him to call others uneducated.
Fire him and find someone willing to work to your specs.

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
He has no formal education, the only thing that distinguishes him from the shop is his shoes.  (The shop has to wear steel-toed boots.)

Mind you, I am not opposed to people who lack degrees.  I think on the job training can offer the right people as much training as a university.  The problem is, if you're not willing to be trained even college won't help!

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

Maybe have him work in the shop for a couple weeks. Let him see first hand how difficult it is to machine a part per his dwgs.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
We tried that; the problem is, he knows what he means.

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

Curious. Can we have a little background how he got hired? Was he tested? Did he lie about experience or training? To me, there is a reason hidden that is good enough to let him go. IMO, you are waisting your time and $$ with him.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
He didn't lie about his qualifications; the person who wanted him hired lied about them.  Basically, a new manager wanted to replace the entire regime that had existed before he was there, that included me.  He hired this guy thinking he could do the job faster and better.  I belive this also had something to do with thinking a man could do the job better than a woman.  When he was brought in I was actually told I couldn't train him.  It is only in the last few months that his training has become my responsibility.  That's years too late!  The manager who came up with this brilliant plan has since been eliminated by the way.  Still we suffer from the effects of his ignorance, and I don't know how to overcome years of bad habits and no disipline.
   

RE: Design Basics

Draw something to the same standard he does and then get him to make that !!!

It does sound like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, do you have managers above you and if so are they aware of the problems he causes? If not do you have the power to give verbal or written warnings? Maybe if he really thought his job was under threat his attitude would improve.

RE: Design Basics

Quote (MESC1):

When he was brought in I was actually told I couldn't train him.
Amazing how true that statment is now.  You can't train him because he doesn't want to be trained.

Since firing him seems hard/impossible, I say provide oversight to ensure he doesn't cause a safety issue that can harm lives, and give him all the rope he wants to hang himself.  When items a) come in out of spec, b) stop fitting/working, c) vendors keep calling for clairifications, someone (hopefully in the position to do something) will get the hint.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
See, I'm beginning to think that too.  However, I don't want to believe it's an unsolvable problem.  There has to be a solution.

They can't threaten his job and he knows it.  I'll be leaving soon, and despite all the problems he causes, he's still cheeper than contract labor.  

RE: Design Basics

I say give him a broom! Tell him to make sure the lights are off before he leaves at night!

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Design Basics

This is a difficult situation.  I think MadMango has the best solution, and since you will be leaving soon, someone else will have to deal with him.  Keep good records of your issues with his work for those that follow you, and sooner or later he will hang himself.  I realize that this doesn't really help you solve the problem, but we have to choose our battles when we can.

RE: Design Basics

Sounds like a man who needs to be his own boss.  I say accelerate this man on his way to self-employment.  There are plenty of other drafters willing and able to follow standards.

RE: Design Basics


SC

There is always a solution. However there are easier ways sometimes. like if you need to fill a round hole and only have square billet.

1. you could try and use a hammer to beat the billet into the hole.

2. you could machine the billet down little by little, until you get a piece of material that will fit in the hole.

or

3. take the billet back to the purchasing department, and tell them to order you the correct stock to start with. Then it is off of you - you either get the correct material, or you have given someone else a very large paperweight.

-WC

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
If he's the billet, I get to be the hammer, right?

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

Like we used to say (before digital cameras), if there was a guy the company would not get rid of, he must have the negatives.

RE: Design Basics

Tell him it SAVES MONEY!!! - when people work to the conventional standards.  It saves a lot of time when people are NOT confused by a drawing.  When we save money the company makes more profits,  and there is more available for personal income raises!!!!  It could translate to more money in HIS pocket.

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
I want to work for a company that more profit translates to more money in my pocket.  Can someone please explain that philosophy to the owners of my company! ;)

Thanks
SC

RE: Design Basics

Hang one of his drawings next to one done to the standards in a prominent place.  Maybe one in the office and one in the shop. Then have a little voting tally sheet underneath.  See which one gets the most votes. If he wins, you shutup. If his gets the least votes, he has to read the books and start working to the standards.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: Design Basics

(OP)
That has already been done, although not so ceremoniously.  He lost; that is when I found out there was a problem.  Until then, I just thought his drawings were ugly, but correct.  That is when I found out it is not just aesthetics he has not grasped.

RE: Design Basics

He refuses to do his job correctly, the company refuses to do anything about him not doing his job correctly, and you are on your way out anyway? I don't see this as such a difficult situation.

Here's an appropriate prayer for you:

Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the widom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill because they pissed me off.

RE: Design Basics

MESC1-
Dump him!

Tunalover

RE: Design Basics

I like ZCP's idea... but with a slight modification. There is a certain beauty to a well put together drawing. Maybe you sould hang a few (in frames) from other people in the office who do draw to standards. Eventually he may feel left out (or hurt as an artist - haha), and want to draw to standards so he can get a little recognition. It may sound like elementary school, but he seems to be acting with all the ego and hard-headedness of my 3rd grader.

-yo

RE: Design Basics

I'm in a similar situation unfortunetly... The only difference is that I am a designer (drafter at the start of my career) who sees a great need for proper dimensioning practices and the engineers here at my new job don't seem to give a gee-whiz! Wierd huh?

Here, everything is done with ordinate dimensions... No GTOL (besides a few flatness tolerances), and pocket depths are dimensioned with text on the pocket face instead of on a x-section view or side view that actually shows the geometry!

You wouldn't believe me if I told you that we do DOD work, but it's true. hah.

RE: Design Basics

MechCT,
Does your drawing format state that the drawing is to be interpreted to any specifications?  If so, that is your reason for following that specification, regardless of what the engineers may say.  If not, then I feel for you.  That is a good way to pick up some very poor habits.

RE: Design Basics

Plain and simple solution is to cut his work down to almost nothing.  It may take some extra effort from the rest of the team but when work starts overflowing and is being held up by the drafting the department the bigger boss will want answers.  The answer will be that Joe (or whatever his name is) is not competent and refuses to adjust to the standards that others have taken the time and effort to learn.  Give him the garbage jobs, garbage in garbage out.  Talk to you HR dept (if you have one) they might help you solve the problem.

Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

RE: Design Basics

This is not a 'design basics' problem.

This is a 'management basics' problem.

" First rate people hire first rate people.
Second rate people hire third rate people.  "

Apparently they haven't purged all the second raters.

It's time.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources