×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

What is the value of a Benefits plan?
5

What is the value of a Benefits plan?

What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
I am in the boat of not being sure how important a benefits plan is, how much the things are going to cost me if I cannot get one in my work, and if I need to be searching for a job where benefits are present.

I am fresh out of school and am now 'technically' working as an independent contractor. As in, I am getting paid as a consultant or self-employed individual. I am pretty new to all of this and feel as though I have been thrown in with the sharks. In some respects I am weary that my employer is taking advantage of me as a good young EE with not much experience with the monetary side of consulting.

I have estimated my salary (although it is VERY rough at this point) after working here for about a month and a half. It is comparable to the starting salaries of those graduating from Rose-Hulman with me in EE. But, I am not recieving a benefits package because I am not an employee. In addition, my taxes are not being withheld by my employer because I have been labelled as a consultant, independent contractor, and self-employed. This means I have to bear the brunt of health insurance, dental plan, etc, etc. Problem is, I really am enjoying my job here in forensics as an EE but I am worried that something fishy is going on.

Anyone care to opine on the benefits thing?

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Benefits - insurance and time off, etc. usually amount to about 30% to 40% of your base salary...may range more than that in some cases - but that's what I've seen.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Benefits depends a great deal on the employer.  Some benefits are worth a LOT of money and some are much more basic.  You will have to keep track of your taxes too and report those as well.  That's time out of your day, and time is money.  Insurance can easily cost a $100-$200 a month or more.  You may also be missing out on tuition reimbursement, vacation/sick time, paid seminars and so forth.  Those can add up very fast if, say, you attend a seminar that costs $1000.  Are you under an employment contract with a company where you have to work for so many months before they hire you permanently?

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

If you really like what you're doing, then you need to set up long-term relationships.  I don't know about EE's, but the ASME has a really good package of insurance policies that you can get into, I'd bet that the EE version also has them.  As a minimum, I'd look at:
- Business & Professional (including errors & omissions)
- Health
- High deductible major medical

Living without Dental and Eye Sight is pretty easy until you have kids.

You also need to be contributing to an IRA or 401K (which has higher maximum contributions, but more paperwork) since it is unlikely that Social Security will be useful in 40-50 years when you need it.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

In reading your post, it sounds to me like you are underpaid for your work. Typically, most hired guns that we bring in for special projects or outage related activities are based on a negotiated hourly rate.

If you are indeed a recent graduate, and are working as an independent contactor you better go back and re-figure your base salary plus health insurance benefits on an hourly rate basis. If you are using only base salary, and it is comparable to a starting salary for graduate engineers, you are underpaid!

Time-off is typically not figured with hourly rates as a contractor because if this was the case, you would be priced out of the market.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I concur with all of the above. zdas04 suggestion to look into IEEE insurance programs will serve you well.

About Federal Income Tax - since you are not having any money withheld, you need to start quarterly payments of estimated taxes, and do it NOW. Otherwise you almost certainly will be facing a (monetary) penalty next spring for underwithholding. Here is a link to the relevant publication, look at info starting on page 18
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p505.pdf

If your state has income tax, the same type situation probably applies, too.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

You are being snookered!

Working as an idependent contractor doing engineer work?

After reading several of your posts, I know you are not a licensed engineer and working as a consultant to Mid-West Forensics. You need to read the Professional Engineer's licensing laws for Indiana. There is a chance that an opposing attorney in a Forensic Case will file a complaint against you.

By hiring you as a consultant Mid-West Forensics has jeopardized your career, themselves and their clients.   

Vita sine litteris mors est.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

So many things to remember - there is also (Federal) Self-Employment Tax, this 15.3% (in 2004) of your gross earnings. For practical purposes it is both "halves" of what would be Social Security payments made by a employee and his employer. Estimate payments of this tax can be included in the Quarterly Tax payments (that I discussed above). Here is a link to the publication on this subject
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p533.pdf

p.s. Suggest that you followup on Rich2001's advice, too.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I have to agree with Rich2001. Its sounds like you are doing engineering without a license. This is a big no-no. If you were an employee this wouldn't be an issue but since you are an independent business entity, you need a PE license.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Just as a baseline.... single, nonsmoking, female:  $300/month for basic health insurance. (medical and dental)

Renegotiate!

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Also, recognize what zdas04 alluded to above: You are PERSONALLY liable for mistakes that you make. As a contractor, you're not going to be covered by the company's liability insurance - you need your own. Without your PE, I don't know if you'll be able to obtain it, though.

On the tax front, recognize that you're also liable for the company portion of Soc Sec - that's another 7.65% that you'll be paying in taxes.

I don't know that this liability is on you but the definition of an independent contractor is very strict by the IRS. If you're working hours set by the company and using company resources (desk, computer, etc) then you're not going to be considered a contractor by the IRS.

I think you're being taken advantage of.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

rjgoebel,

1. Don't get dscouraged by the apparent tone of the replies; being a registered PE is IMPORTANT. And we care. Also, engineering as a profession is honorable to the nth degree. And a great many engineers have been those who've been on their own for most of their careers. But that's after they established themselves accordingly. Even Nikola Tesla worked for someone first...

2. Your first job is IMPORTANT. Really important. So important that... you should ask this person to hire you as a for-real employee. Even if it's for less pay. The EXPERIENCE is more important right out of school.

3. Benefits are nice. Get them. Want them. You will need them.

4. The associated hassles with self-employment are real. Avoid them for now.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
I want to clarify what I am doing so as to not get myself and my company in trouble.  At this point I am not offering sole consulting or acting as an authority on any cases I am working on.  The President of my company has been careful to match me up with other PEs that work for other companies when I am working on cases, and anything else I am doing is mainly just documenting things and research (thus far).  

I realize that there are limitations to what I can be doing and what I can offer because I am fresh out of school.  I am nowhere close to the point where any of my opinions or conclusions could be used in litigation.  I've been thinking about what I need to do to get my PE, because I know that is pretty important for any kind of consulting.

Concerning my benefits (or lack thereof), it definitely is a cause for concern, and I definitely don't FEEL like a self-employed consultant but financially that is what I am being treated as in the company.  Maybe I am being snookered, if that's a good way of putting it.  The paying double into social security and Medicare is definitely rubbing me the wrong way.

Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

If you are an independent business entity and are engaging in engineering, you need to have a PE. It is not sufficient that your work is being reviewed by PEs that work for your client. An an independent entity, you are NOT legally under the supervision of your client.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Either that, or you're really not even an independent contractor.

Microsoft got dinged by the IRS for claiming that many of their workers were independent contractors.  However, the "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck," rule applies.  

If you are managerially treated like an employee, e.g., under the direct supervision of a PE, then you are not an independent contractor and the company is simply trying an end-run around the IRS.

TTFN



RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

To be legally under the supervision of a PE, you must legally be a part of the PEs business organization. If you are filing a tax return that indicates that you are an independent entity, then you cannot claim that you are under a PEs supervision.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Jim,
In a lawsuit prior to my retiring, a lawyer asked me "do you set the hours for the construction company?"  A "yes" answer to that seemingly innocent question (that I hadn't been prep'ed for) would apparently have made us liable for the the FICA and medicare on a $30,000/day payroll.  It would have also opened a bunch of other doors (like why we didn't provide health care and retirement for the laborers on the crew).  Luckily, I got that $64 million question right.

The laws are getting much more strict defining employee/employeer relationships.  IRStuff's "Quacks like a duck" is the law of the land.  I often have to sign affadavits in my current positions testifying that the client "provides scope-of-work instructions, not performance-of-work instructions".

I don't think that your situation passes the sniff test on this one.

David

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
I just talked to Mr. Boss about all of this. He told me that I am an employee for this company and that the money I am making when working on specific cases is commision, and technically it is not considered consulting.

He didn't really give too much on the whole benefits thing, though. He said at best that they might be able to help me out with paying for benefits, but that the company is small enough that benefits is not something that people expect in this field. Our company is only about 7 employees small, and there aren't very many or large forensics companies out there.

EddyC that made a lot of sense how you put it about filing as an independent entity and holding your PE liscence. I do not have my PE yet so I cannot file taxes as an independent entity because I am not legally allowed to practice engineering as a consultant on my own. OK, makes sense. But I am allowed to offer my opinion and use my EE background to reach conclusions on electrical engineering issues in forensics, aren't I? I doubt too many of you have direct experience doing consulting as an EE in the forensics field, but if anyone does I would LOVE to hear how you got started, more specifically about how the pay started and how taxes were filed.

I think that all of this will become a lot more clear once I file taxes for the first time; or at least I'm hoping it will. How many of you signed a contract for employment in engineering? What about a no-compete clause in your agreement to work?

I also told my Mr. Boss about the option of my going to work for a more traditional electrical engineering company for a period of time while I was working to get my PE. That way I could make more money, get an actual benefits package, and also prepare to enter into the field I am in right now with a full head of steam if I want to come back to it (which I likely will). Mr. Boss is the owner of our company and he didn't really like this idea too much, and made it seem as though if I got out and uninvolved in the company, I was out for good. I would bet money that he was bluffing, counting on my wanting to remain here doing what I am doing enough to hear him and not want to go. But I am confident that I could return if I wanted to after working for a GE or similiar company. Would you recommend doing this? I don't want to limit myself to only working in forensics and fire investigation for the rest of my life when after 10 years no one would want to hire me because that's my only relevant work experience and I am too far out of school to be able to re-tool and get molded to fit in at different places..

It seems like PE's have the ability to demand a lot more money when consulting than do non-PE's. In fact I am very uncertain about the ability of non-PE's to offer valuable consulting at all (or the perception of that fact in the field). I actually need to talk to one of my EE friends from Rose-Hulman that was in my class and went directly into consulting after his undergraduate degree, up in Boston somewhere.

The only way I think that our company could get into trouble is if legally I was not qualified to comment/opine on something and I do, and the case gets all the way to court. Realistically, any case of enough importance that litigation would be an issue, my first priority is protecting myself and not overstepping my bounds as a new EE. There is something in court called a Dobler (sp?) challenge, which I need to learn a lot more about. What it amounts to though is that a lawyer calls your credibility into question when you are on the stand. My boss as a general origin and cause expert on fires said that he had a Dobler challenge once in court and it was the scariest thing that ever happened to him. You're done in the field if you don't get past the challenge in the courtroom, because no one will hire you once they know about the ghost in the closet that can always be brought up in litigation. I'm on track to likely be on the stand as an expert in maybe 6 or 7 years, provided I get my PE and all the liscencing needed for the field. I hope... But then again maybe it would be better to get some more traditional industry experience at a place like GE..

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

You are the only one that can answer the quetion "should I leave?".  The few engineers I've known in forensics have been there for their whole career and plan to consult in the field after retirement.  None of them can imagine ever doing anything else.  

If you feel that way then you would be a fool to leave now that you've cleared up who does the whole withholding thing and you don't hate your salary or working conditions.

This ain't a game.  Noone is keeping score.  Enjoying your work, being good at it, and being satisfied that you're being compensated fairly is just about as good as it gets.

David

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Jim - I have read your latest response very carefully. For a moment, forget about electrical engineering, forensics, PE, etc. - let's talk about business - which is independent of all those factors.

Mr. Boss says that the money you are making is a "commission". Commissions are treated the same as salary for tax purposes. Mr. Boss's firm is required, at a minimum, to withold Social Security taxes from money paid to you. The money withheld must be deposited on a regular basis (usually weekly or monthly dependent on the firm's total payroll), with the Federal Government (this is done thru a commerical bank). If this is not being done, and you say that it is not, the Mr. Boss's firm is violating the law. This is a very strong clue that things are "not right" at Mr. Boss's firm.

If you wait until you file your taxes to address these issues, in the spring of 2006 I assume, you are going to be in for some very "nasty" surprises. Do you expect to get a Form W-2 from the firm? I doubt it. I hate to say this, but I suggest that you go see a lawyer, now.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

rjgoebel, some benefits laws also depend where you are located, country/state. Something to look into.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Note also, by failing to have Federal taxes witheld, YOU are liable for any tax penalties.  YOU will be potentially liable for alternative minimum tax, which is nasty.  AND, you may be liable for prepayment of estimated taxes the following year.  

YOU need to get in touch with a tax professional and/or lawyer ASAP.

TTFN



RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Quote (rjgoebel):

It seems like PE's have the ability to demand a lot more money when consulting than do non-PE's. In fact I am very uncertain about the ability of non-PE's to offer valuable consulting at all (or the perception of that fact in the field).

Just to be crystal clear: The PE issue is not one of perception nor the ability to make additional money -- it's the law in every state of the US and province of Canada.

You CANNOT, by law, perform engineering services nor represent yourself as an engineer to clients without a license. Yes, there is an industrial exemption available that lets folks like me work in an engineering capacity for my company, but I cannot be hired out nor represented to be an engineer beyond the bounds of my employer.

There's nothing to be uncertain about -- you cannot legally provide consulting services without the license. Period.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
How does a consulting firm attract good young engineers to work as consultants when those young engineers realistically are not offering any services to the company until they have their PE ?

ie: Me.  I can help out around the office but I don't actually REALLY contribute until I am out interacting with clients and have the ability to really act like an expert/authority on things.  And that doesn't come until my PE comes.  Do I want less pay than other EE's with no benefits to stick it out until I get my PE?

I do enjoy the field, but what kind of hit can I afford to take to do something I enjoy on pay/benefits?

Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I'm not following.  Have you signed up to take your EIT exam?  As an EIT, you should be able to do most of the things you are asking about, under the appropriate supervision of a PE.  No one expects you to immediately be a PE, but there is a process that should be well documented in your state's website for licensed engineers.

Your original question about benefits is unrelated to what you or your company offers as services.  Your company appears to be taking advantage of the fact that you don't have license and appear to not be involved in getting a license.

A reputable and forward thinking company would have already been pushing you to get started on your PE.  To be doing otherwise speaks volumes.

TTFN



RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
Oh, I already passed my FE/EIT just as I was getting my degree ( 2 months ago).  We have talked about my getting my PE and that is a top priority.

Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

"How does a consulting firm attract good young engineers to work as consultants when those young engineers realistically are not offering any services to the company until they have their PE ?"

They usually don't hire any engineer without experience. Translated, the consulting firms don't usually hire anyone without a P.E.

Your question is, "where they heck do we get the experience, then?"

An answer might be found in the rules for taking the P.E., i.e., you need twelve years' worth of experience (meaning four years working after the BS) in order to qualify to take the exam.

Those first four years (and maybe more) should be considered an apprenticeship. Yeah, I know that you have to make money, have to pay back them student loans, etc...

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

vooter,

In California, many established firms do hire recent graduates.  Established firms usually have key staff engineers that are licensed and the firm may utilize the recent graduates under the licensed project engineer/managers' supervision.

Typically salary for the recent graduates isn't very high.  It may go up about 10% per year for the first few years.  Once licensed, there is a significant jump.  Switching firm at this point will bring another significant jump (do this only if your company is not loyal to you as you were to the company).

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Quote:

(do this only if your company is not loyal to you as you were to the company).

I would say, "Do this only if it's in your best interests. Don't believe for a second that the company has any loyalty toward you beyond your ability to do the work they want for as little pay as possible."

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

rjgoebel,

Are you or are you not an employee of Mid-West Forensics? If you are, then you don't have to be a PE as long as someone above you is. But if you are not an employee and are an outside entity (subconsultant to a consultant), then you definitely need to have a PE to do engineering for them or for anyone. The states define the "public" as any person or entity outside of your business entity. You need to find out your legal employment status ASAP. And don't expect your boss to care about this kind of thing. Because if someone reports you to the state and they determine that you are an independent business entity and should have your PE license, you will be in trouble.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
EddyC,
I wish I could answer that question right now. I am trying to negotiate that I AM an employee of Mid-West right now. I cannot really accomplish too much as an independent contractor because like you are saying, I am not allowed legally to practice engineering as one unless I have my PE. Plus, there are all kinds of associated penalties it seems, like added taxes into social security.

My boss has said all kinds of things like my billable hours, what he calls commision, is not within his bounds to withhold because it is commision. Someone earlier on this thread already discounted that because commision is counted the same as salary for tax purposes.

Another issue is that there isn't a PE at our company. When I am working with PE's they are from another (not ours) forensics company around the state. And more often than not, they are representing a different client. Is this going to be a problem? Do I need to be studying directly underneath a PE to be gaining experience towards getting my PE?

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Quote:

Do I need to be studying directly underneath a PE to be gaining experience towards getting my PE?

That depends on your state laws.

Vita sine litteris mors est.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

If your employer is engaging in engineering, there MUST be a PE on staff. You need to determine if the work that they (and you) are doing is considered engineering by the state. Also find out if your employer (Mid-West Forensics) has a Certificate Of Authorization with the state (Essentially permission by the state to do engineering). You can look this type of thing up by going to the state engineering board website. Go to www.ncees.org and click on Licensing Boards.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Jim - This is IMPORTANT. You are getting good & consistent advice from numerous Eng-Tips members who know what they are talking about. You are on the verge of BIG trouble for several reasons. Look (below) at the "homework" that I have done for you:

Is this your employer?
http://in.allpages.com/indianapolis/professional/law-enforcement-professional/

If so, seach here, on that name (pasted into the "Facility Name" block
https://extranet.in.gov/WebLookup/Search.aspx?facility=Y

You will see that your firm has exactly One (1) Indiana professional license - as a "Private Detective Agency"

If the above is accurate, for time last time (from me) - go see a lawyer - what your are discussing in this Eng-Tips thread is like "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" compared to what can (and probably will) happen to you - if you do nothing.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I don't mean this to keep adding fuel to the fire but recognize the urgency of what SlideRuleEra is telling you.

In assessing civil liability (& degree of criminal culpability), one of the critical issues is knowledge. Before this thread, you honestly didn't know the situation. Now you do. That means that your burden is substantially higher.

It sounds as though your employer is breaking both state and federal law and that you are violating your state's PE statutes.

Beyond the civil liability and penalties you face for practicing sans license, recognize that you are also jeopardizing your ability to get a license at all by knowingly working in violation of the PE statute.

Do as the man (I presume) says: go see an attorney.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

(OP)
Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to either: be an employee (not an independent contractor), or not work here anymore. It's that simple. I never realized the implications of all of this but thanks for the input, and this will get straightened out in the next 2 days.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Even if you become a full fledged employee, there still needs to be a PE at your employer's firm (and I don't mean at your employer's client's firm). Unless this condition is met, you are still not in compliance with state engineering laws and could still get in trouble.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

rj:

The advice from this forum seems to be for you to get out of the situation.  Your transition from ignorance to enlightenment is obvious as one reads through it, but now that you are no longer ignorant, you can't just wait to see what happens.  Make a copy of this discussion--it names names and names places, and it may have some value as a CYA document.

William

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

Here is my input.  I know I will probably raise some heated debate, but here goes:

I do strongly agree with the PE issue and licensure .  However, in forensics you are not performing engineering design that affects public safety.  I would not get all nervous about breaking laws; at least in New York where I am, I know people working in this field without PE's.  Indiana may be different.  

I worked for a short time in this field, and as long as the lawyers/clients are aware of your credentials and are ok with that, you should be ok.  You are offering your services as an expert witness, not a PE.  A PE certainly gives you more credibility, no matter what your chosen field.  And yes, in some instances it is required.

The forensic field is often filled with semi-retired and part time engineers that have other full time jobs.  As such, you will find that many firms do not offer benefits.  Also, they typically pay the employees based on their billable hours (i.e. they do not get a salary).  I suspect this is how you are being handled.  If you are young and can afford to work this way for now, over time you will most likely build your reputation and client base and will make good money, with flexibility not seen in a more traditional business.  I do suggest that if you stay in your current job that you do get some basic health insurance and start saving for retirement.

However, if you are interested in gaining some other experience, it certainly is helpful in the forensic field.  As an expert witness, it certainly is valuable to state that you have designed, installed, and maintained equipment.  You can always do forensics on a part time basis as described above.

This brings me to the next point - be careful what you say to your employer.  You never want to burn any bridges.  You never know where life will take you.  Also, be careful what you say until you have a job lined up.  The last thing you want is to have burned bridges and not have a back-up job.

Good luck.  

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I disagree. If what you and your employer are doing is classified as engineering, then both of you are required to be in compliance with state law, regardless of whether public safety is affected by the work in question. Contact the state board. Let them decide if what you are doing is engineering or not and whether you need to be in compliance with state law.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

SlideRuleEra's previous post linked to the following information.  If the company has no PE or RA, it is illegally offering engineering and architecture services.

Mid-West Forensic Services
3728 West 86th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46268-1903
Phone: (317) 876-3220
Business Types: Criminologists, Engineer & Architect Services

rjgoebel, get a new job ASAP.

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I do feel a bit sorry for Jim in that he's basically been "outed" and really has little choice at this point. The detailed nature of this thread has essentially burned his bridge for him. My guess is that his boss would be none too happy to see all of this tied to his name in a public discussion forum.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: What is the value of a Benefits plan?

I am not sure if the original question matters anymore, but here are approximate benefits at our utility.

Healthcare, vision, dental, short term disability and $50,000 of life insurance: $10,000

Employer contribution to retirement: $4500

Social security/medicare/unemployment/workers compensation taxes paid by employer: $5,000

Paid vacation/sick leave: $5,000

Training: $5,000- depends if you count the human resource classes or just the technical ones

that is more than half my salary! Granted being young, single and in good health I could find health insurance much cheaper, but all rest sure adds up.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources