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Fake Credentials

Fake Credentials

Fake Credentials

(OP)
I was reading the paper yesterday and came across an article on a structural engineer that was giving expert testimony on a court case.  He was investigated and it was determined that their degree was from a the University of Berkley, not in CA but in Erie, PA.   Turns out it was a diploma mill that was shut down.

How do we begin to regulate charlatans from our business?  This person obviously felt they were a structural engineer, but with no verification required, they became a structural engineer.  

Should we be the mouthpiece for our ethics, or do we continue to let this occur?  How can we stop it?


I felt this was an interesting topic for discussion...

Bob

RE: Fake Credentials

Bob, was this person a PE? If not, then there are laws to prosecute. If so, I would assume the man qualified.
Not too much else to discuss as the practice of structural engineering is well regulated.

RE: Fake Credentials

(OP)
patdaly, evidently this person was not a PE as he could not qualify for the exam, so that part of the process worked.  I do not understand how this person got on the stand though...That part was not discussed, nor was how the person was cought.  

Can we assume that if the person needed a fake degee (a BS in Structural Engineering) from a school that is being prosecuted by the state of PA for being a diploma mill, they are qualified.  that is the scarey part, evidently people did.

I would agree with you that there should be nothing at all to discuss but, are we going to support diploma mill engineering degrees?  Is that ethical?

Bob

RE: Fake Credentials

I would blame the cynical lawyer who hired this expert; he probably figured that no one would know the difference. If someone's from "Berkeley," I assume they went to school at the University of California at Berkeley -and there's a good chance they're a communist! There's a "Berkeley Business College" in Spain. The "University of Berkeley" is an online diploma mill, though they're apparently somewhere in Arizona. "Berklee College" is, I think, a music school or somesuch.

Patdaly is correct regarding concern over the person's license; you don't have to have a degree to get the PE - though it probably makes things easier.

If the main credential of the expert was where he went to school, how much of an expert can he be, anyway?

RE: Fake Credentials

One of my employer's clients has a whole group of "engineers" working for them on projects that we collaborate on. These folks get to testify as "experts" at town zoning meetings. The various towns seem to accept their credentials without much question. I told one of these "engineers" that according to the laws of New Jersey (where he was testifying) he is not legally an engineer because he is not a PE (This is the law in New Jersey, which I have verified). I warned him that he could be fined if someone at the meeting looks into his credentials and reports him. If I am ever at a town meeting as a member of the general public, I would be the one reporting him.

My employer has a lot of 3rd world foreign nationals as his rank-and-file staff. One day he walked up to one of them and told him that he received a resume from someone. He asked him: "Have you heard of this school? Its in your country." This was the methodology he used to determine if he should hire this person. So much for formal verification of this person's credentials. And anyhow, credentials from 3rd world countries can be forged easily by paying a small fee.

Now let me speak as a member of the general public. I am sitting in my office on the 2nd floor of an office building. I am wondering if this building was really designed by an engineer or did the engineer-of-record have the building designed by some subordinate with unverifiable credentials that was willing to work for cheap? This makes a case for universal licensing.

RE: Fake Credentials

In the US, PE is regulated by states.  Wisconsin has a path for obtaining a PE with no degree, but not all states have such a provision.

No matter what, one must pass the test and meet experience requirements.

RE: Fake Credentials

EddyC - what do you mean by "universal licensing"?  I don't see how that would make any difference.

BobPE - lawyers putting people with questionable credentials is probably nothing new.  The practice of law in casework is a wild and wooly business where lots of tricks and questionable practices takes place.  Usually, the checks and balances are provided by the judges, opposing attorneys, and the bar.

RE: Fake Credentials

JAE,

Licensed engineers are increasing rubber stamping the work of their unlicensed subordinates, basically defeating the purpose of the PE. If all engineers are licensed then the public will be better protected from this situation because every engineer will be a PE.

RE: Fake Credentials

Degree mills are very common.  Two sources that you can check

State of Michigan list of unacceptable degree suppliers: www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf

State of Oregon Office of Degree Authorization - Unaccredited Colleges http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Please note that the states do not have have the time nor money to do a complete job of investigation.  Some schools may be missing or incorrect information my be presented.

For a small fee ($200-$300) an US Credential Evaluators can evaluate the degree and school.  aA few of thenm are AUAP (member of: American Council of Education, AACRAO. NAFSA & NAGAP),  Credential Evaluation.org, Foreign  Credential Evaluation & Reasearch Foundation, Academic Assessment Credential Corporation Member of: AACRAO & NAFSA) Global Education Group (Member of: AACRAO & NAFSA), CCI (Member of: AACRAO, NAFSA & EAIE.

Vita sine litteris mors est.

RE: Fake Credentials

EddyC - OK - got it.  I was thinking you were refering to a national license vs. state licenses - but avoiding plan stamping and enforcing licensing laws are a good thing.

RE: Fake Credentials

Bob,

There is NOTHING you can do PREVENT this sort of thing.  As I indicated before, there are lots of fake doctors, as well as fake lawyers, running around.  As long as people are willing to fudge the system to get cheap labor, this will ALWAYS be the case.

Just consider the amount of enforcement and money expended on illegal immigration.  The people screaming about it are the same people that patronize restaurants and other establishments that use illegal immigrants because no one else will work that cheaply.  Even well-known judges have used illegal immigrants.

The fact that diploma mills exist says that it WORKS.  People are too lazy or too busy to do the due diligence.

TTFN



RE: Fake Credentials

If your a PE in California, Oregon, Washington, Iowa and probably most other states I can do a "license lookup" on the website of the state board.  If your real you show up.  You could be using someone elses name but that you could check our witha phone call or letter.  

RE: Fake Credentials

If I was one of the jurors in the court case in question, I wouldn't look too highly on a non-PE giving expert testimony because I have no way of knowing what they are. But then again, because I am an engineer I will not be picked for jury duty anyway.

RE: Fake Credentials

(OP)
some states require that a person giving expert testimony on engineering, no matter what the disipline or subject, be a licensed engineer, some do not.

I guess I am just at a loss as to what, if anything, we can do about the B..S..BS degree.  It definately attacks at the heart of our profession...and sours the public against us...and allows potentially dangerous conditions to be developed right under our nose...

Is a license the answer so that someone can at least check? Do we check everyone we meet who claims to be an engineer?

I think this just adds to the mess...

bob



RE: Fake Credentials

Bob,

Whenever I meet someone who says they are an engineer, I look them up on the state roster of PEs. I also look up the company that they are working for to see if they have a Certificate Of Authorization. If they and/or their company is not listed, then I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

RE: Fake Credentials

Seems the opposing attorney wasn't doing his or her job if the lack of proper credentials wasn't found out immediately. Is the bar reviewing the attorney's credentials?

RE: Fake Credentials

(OP)
do you report htem to the state if they are not what they say they are EddyC?  Just curious...I know this seems to be a hard thing to do for us engineers....

Don't mean to upset anyone here, but lawyers are not the smartest people in the world...If we are not telling them a license is needed, then they don't seen to care...Placing our profession in their hands definately is not the answer ...  do we demand that licensure boards notify attnys on a regular basis to question credentials?  Is it even our duty?

Bob

RE: Fake Credentials

Good discussion and timely - the Provincial Association I'm a member of is floating the idea of mandatory professional continuing education.  The idea is to fill out the form to show how many professional development hours we engineers have done a year as continuing education.  There is some vehement opposition to this, yet I look around and the dentists have it, the doctors have it, and the lawyers have it.  If Professional Engineers are to be seen as "Professional", then why so much opposition?  How many other jurisdictions require compulsory professional development?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it is connected.  Perhaps the "commodification" of engineering has led to an erosion of the perceived status of engineers in general.  Is it a matter of the Engineering Associations being more diligent?  Where is the enforcement?

RE: Fake Credentials

For all your enjoyment: http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/l_citeunlic.htm

$2500 appears to be one of the largest fines for practicing illegally in California.  I have no idea about other states or countries.

What are the fines for illegally practicing as a doctor or lawyer?  or a police officer?

RE: Fake Credentials

(OP)
GMcD:

I have no problem with that, I will just go online and buy another diploma from University of Berkely, I always wanted a PhD in particle physics...

Lets get our house in order first, before we go trudging off fixing up a junk system....

Bob

RE: Fake Credentials

BobPE:  I agree, however the majority of the members here don't seem to see the system as being "broken" and wish to continue on as if everything is fine and dandy.  I'm in the building construction end of things, and in my opinion, this end of the profession IS broken and needs all the help it can get.  No one wants to rock the boat.

RE: Fake Credentials

whyun:

That is a scary website.

EVERYONE should have a look. Unlicensed engineers being treated worse than s e x o ff end e rs! (In the sense of it being made public, for all the world to see, not just the local police department)... Dang!

RE: Fake Credentials

Bob,

I report unlicensed practice and incorrect usage of the engineer title in situations where there is no threat of retaliation from my employer. This is not the ideal scenario, but its the best that I can do in the present. I do advise the folks engaging in these violations whenever I can. Most are unaware of what they are doing and are merely following their employer's orders. Sometimes I see vehicles with company names on them offering "engineering" services. I check to see if they have a C of A and report them if they don't. Just today a drafter wanted me to stamp drawings created by her husband for the renovation and addition to her house. I think that it was totally wrong for her husband do this type of "engineering" and totally wrong for her to ask me to stamp (in reality rubber stamp) the drawings.

RE: Fake Credentials

vooter,

yes, it is scary that the information is made PUBLIC (I didn't think of it that way...)

The point I was trying to make with the weblink is the LOW penalties for getting caught posing as engineers.

EddyC: a drafter WANTED you to stamp? whoa...  The work done by her husband isn't even related to your company, right?  Was she asking you to stamp the drawings for free?  Sounds ridiculous to me.  Her husband has the "right" to design anything he wishes for his house which isn't required by his local building officials to be designed by a licensed individual (at his own risk).

RE: Fake Credentials

whyun,

The drafter's husband did the design himself and then submitted it to the town. It was rejected and he was told to go find an architect or engineer. This work has nothing to do with my employer and the drafter wanted me to stamp it for free. When I told her that it cost $$$ for an engineer to design or review something, she asked how much? (for something that I haven't even seen). I want no part of it. In my opinion, engineering should be done by engineers and by no one else. Period. I'm not interested in reviewing someone else's work, someone who shouldn't have done it in the first place.

RE: Fake Credentials

The "system" is NOT broken; the PEOPLE are.

Almost all the cases of "fake" credentials come from the LACK of doing a background check.  

TTFN



RE: Fake Credentials

EddyC,

The course of action they should have taken is explain their situation to you, allow you to determine what you need to review in order to achieve their goal, then allow you to quote your fee.  At this point, they can take your offer or seek another who will do the job for less.

What they may not have realized is that they are asking you to build them a house for free (they pay for the material) and if anything happens to it, you cover the costs.  How fair is that...  Funny how people think.

RE: Fake Credentials

I would think that a person illegally acting as an unlicensed engineering consultant on the witness stand would warrant declaring a mistrial.  There is literally a crime being committed in the courtroom!

RE: Fake Credentials

Expert witnesses are who ever the court wants them to be. The attorneys call an expert witness and they are confirmed as experts by the court.  Being a PE is usually an automatic for being an expert.  You could be challenged and disallowed if your experience and training isn't relevant to the case.  A registered  electrical PE with experience in 60 cycle power may not be recognized as an expert in an electronics case.  
An electronics engineer without a PE could be recognized if he had sufficient credentials ( experience, patents etc.).  The judge has the last word.

RE: Fake Credentials

I found this thread late, and several posts, but not all, so this suggestion may have already been given.

If I became aware of such activity in my state, I would report them to the state licensing board, who, in this state anyway, seems to have an aggressive approach to protecting the integrity of the engineering profession.

Past this, I would take no other action.

rmw (PE, by the way)

RE: Fake Credentials

"I would agree with you that there should be nothing at all to discuss but, are we going to support diploma mill engineering degrees?  Is that ethical?"

 The answer has to be an unqualified no. For those issues requiring a PE, we cannot tolerate deviance.

 Part of this issue I believe might be the way the law is written though.
If I am to understand the law, I cannot be considered an "expert" to testify in engineering matters regarding my industry without a PE? That hardly makes sense as I certainly am "expert" enough to calculate and design the pieces and parts that make up the machine that I would be testifying about. How could a PE, who may never have laid eyes on ( in my industry ) a glass bottle producing machine and has had no instruction or experience in its theory or application? I am of the opinion we have very smart people who think that their education and passage of a test infers expertise, when in reality it only is a piece of the puzzle.
 Now, for cases or applications where the states have determined a PE is required to engineer, then it should, and is a criminal act to proffer expertise where the documentation does not exist. In cases like these it appears as if one or both sides lawyers were not qualified to practice the law, and should be handled by the state bar.

 In short, you made a very apt statement when you said that lawyers werent the smartest people in the world. Let us not head down the same road with one size fits all approaches to this situation, lest we become as bad as the lawyers.

RE: Fake Credentials

From the CA PE Act:
6701. Professional engineer defined
“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.

The key phrase is "person engaged in the professional practice of..."  

Someone who is offering his services as an expert witness, is, unarguably, "engaged in the professional practice."  Someone who is called to testify in a particular case would not be.

TTFN



RE: Fake Credentials

BTW, EddyC, as Rich2001 has shown, credentials from non-3rd world countries can be manufactured just as easily as those from "3rd world countries can be forged easily by paying a small fee".  The only difference is that the fee here is higher.

RE: Fake Credentials

Let's see someone try & make a fake PE credential.

RE: Fake Credentials

EddyC, there was a case a few years ago where someone was signing and sealing plans etc.using the seal of deceased PE.  

Vita sine litteris mors est.

RE: Fake Credentials

"Let's see someone try & make a fake PE credential."

How hard could it be? First of all, you can say "I'm an engineer" and a lot of people, not knowing what a PE is or means will just say "ok." You could craft a fake stamp pretty easily, too. If you've never taken (and passed) the exams, but you know the material, it would be more than easy to fool a client.

However, it is relatively easy to check someone's credentials as indicated in this thread. Will the client do that? Will the permit issuing agency do that? Maybe, maybe not.

RE: Fake Credentials

NOT hard at all, VERY easy to check.  

Just went through that with moving companies.  Final score: only 4 out of the 8 companies checked had valid MC licenses from DOT.  Only two of the 4 that claimed BBB membership actually were.

TTFN



RE: Fake Credentials

In the early 90's (92-early 93), I was a subcontractor on an engine development project, and as the designer on record, I had to sign off on the California Air Resources Board (CARB) applications.
In 1996, my current employer advised me that internal actions against me were being initiated due to a conflict of interest.  When I investigated, I found that my signature had been used on documents as recent as a month before, for a federal grant application and on a nationally distrubuted press release!  
Since my name was the signature on record, my former contractor/employer had falsfied my name to the application.  I cheerfully provided a deposition in pre-trial proceedings.  He is now history and hopefully no longer in business.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Fake Credentials

It also depends in what part of the world you are in, and at least here in Australia "engineer" is a fairly loose term in some particular fields.

So what do you need to be an engineer, diploma, degree, masters, doctorate ? In truth large companies with personnel departments usually check a persons credentials and employment history very carefully.

However, a very small privately owned company might be quite happy to employ an unqualified person for the "engineering" department provided he can demonstrate a sufficiently high level of real knowledge at the job interview. Often the man that owns the company IS an engineer, and can quickly recognize a high level of competence when he sees it. He may decide to choose an unqualified candidate rater than a qualified one with less experience. But he would be doing that in full knowledge of the true facts.

This all seems to be particularly relevant amongst computer and software engineers these days. There are some fairly talented and highly paid and respected people with few or no formal qualifications, believe it or not.

I see nothing wrong with that, as long as a person does not try to misrepresent himself, or use fake or forged qualifications to claim to be something he is not. That is widespread too, and an entirely different matter.



RE: Fake Credentials

FYI:
Per the Harrisburg Patriot News "Know at Noon - Top Stories At Midday", found here:
www.PennLive.com

Tuesday, July 19, 2005

Judge modifies order against 'diploma mill'
A judge reversed an order to shut down an Erie-based Internet site accused by state officials of being a diploma mill but barred the site from doing business in Pennsylvania or with state residents. Erie County Judge William Cunningham yesterday dissolved a temporary restraining order he issued earlier this month directing the University of Berkley to shut down its site. The revised order also unfreezes the assets of Dennis J. Globosky, who runs the school. The attorney general's office, which is trying to shut down the site permanently, will appeal the order today. The original restraining order will remain in effect pending that appeal, spokeswoman Barbara Petito says. - AP

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Fake Credentials

Further update:
Per PennLive.com's Patriot-News Know@Noon:
TOP STORIES AT MIDDAY
Tuesday, August 09, 2005
Internet degree site may continue, but not in Pa.
A northwestern Pennsylvania-based Internet site accused by state officials of being a diploma mill may do business anywhere but Pennsylvania as the attorney general's office fights to shut it down, a judge has ruled. Commonwealth Court Senior Judge Jess Jiuliante upheld an Erie County judge's decision to dissolve a temporary restraining order directing the University of Berkley to shut down its site. The judge also unfroze the assets of Dennis J. Globosky, who runs the school. Attorney General Tom Corbett alleges that the school has churned out at least 12,500 worthless degrees for $2,100 or $5,000 each, for a total of up to $34 million. Spokeswoman Barbara Petito says the office is considering an appeal.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Fake Credentials

The only people that can prevent this are the hiring managers.  We are our own police force in this issue.  I have not had a problem with fake credentials but I have had several problems with "claimed experience".  Some of the things that we can do are:  

1.  Accept only graduates of ABET approved degree programs.  If this is not possible, require the canidate to be an EIT and verify this with the state board.  The EIT process is a good rule to follow anyway.
2.  Force HR to get copies of all degrees (many still will not automatically do this) or get them yourself.
3.  Get certified transcript copies from the school, not just a copy of a degree.
4.  Do reference checks yourself.  Do not trust anyone else to do it for you.  I have been burned several times by this one.
5.  READ everything! (just in case)  Many people send you junk thinking that no one has the time to read it.

I have read many articles over the past few years regarding the job market over the next ten to fifteen years.  The pool of employees will be far less than the available jobs.  The fake credentials problem will only get worse in this situation so we have to protect ourselves now.  

The PE certification process will help.  

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