Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
(OP)
We had an interesting situation come up here recently...wondering if anyone had seen anything like this:
The city was seeing intermittent trips on a 15kV breaker which was tied to an underground feeder. Within a week, one of the phases (they run each phase in a separate conduit), faulted. They pulled the faulted cable out and replaced it. Within a week, another phase faulted. Both of the faults occurred at a 90 degree turn in the conduit. The conduits were installed as pvc with steel elbows at the turns. The cable manufacturer said that by using the steel elbows, the magnetics would create heat causing the breakdown. The city only was using about 60 percent of that cable's capacity so I can't see how the magnetic heating effect could create enough heat to push the cable's temperature high enough to create that fault. Any thoughts/comments?
The city was seeing intermittent trips on a 15kV breaker which was tied to an underground feeder. Within a week, one of the phases (they run each phase in a separate conduit), faulted. They pulled the faulted cable out and replaced it. Within a week, another phase faulted. Both of the faults occurred at a 90 degree turn in the conduit. The conduits were installed as pvc with steel elbows at the turns. The cable manufacturer said that by using the steel elbows, the magnetics would create heat causing the breakdown. The city only was using about 60 percent of that cable's capacity so I can't see how the magnetic heating effect could create enough heat to push the cable's temperature high enough to create that fault. Any thoughts/comments?






RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
I have also gotten calls from clients asking why the conduit elbows were too hot to touch.
This would seem to be the most likely cause of failure unless you have a better candidate.
As I'm sure you know, if all three phases are run in one conduit, this is not a problem because the net flux is close to zero.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Davidbeach is right on the mark.
You ask if anyone has seen anything like this: We had a similar situation when someone installed a steel Unistrut frame supporting the line connections to a 56MVA generator and through lack of knowledge managed to form a closed loop around each phase. The support was running so hot that the galvanised finish was failing and the underlying steel was coloured by oxide.
You may also encounter seemingly strange brass or aluminium fittings on single core cables. Aluminium cable armour, aluminium glands, brass gland plates are all typical for single core AC cable installations. These components are used to avoid the magnetic induction problem which you have observed. Single cores are usually installed in a trefoil group to minimise the external magnetic field and are cleated together to withstand the large electromagnetic forces which exist during fault conditions.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
This has nothing to do with the *bend* either, only that it is a closed magnetic path around the cable?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
One you saw even a little nick in an elbow you cable is compromised.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
This really is not a good installation and violates NEC Article 300 as David Beach has pointed out. It needs to be corrected.
There is no provision in the NEC for derating a conductor due to magnetic heating of the enclosing raceway. The conductor is supposed to be installed in such a way that the magnetic heating does not occur.
Do the city and yourself a favor and make sure it gets corrected. Let us know how it works out.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Not true. A steel hard line allows pulls through PVC elbows without burn through where a nylon rope would burn the PVC. Now, if the bend is too tight it won't matter what is used for a pull-line, you'll have burning.
There is much less friction between steel and PVC than there is between nylon and PVC, and the steel can disperse the heat much better than a nylon rope. The stretching of the nylon rope only further compounds the problem.
Check with the cable manufacturer's for their recommendations for pulling and you'll find that they recommend steel rope.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Thanks for those clarifications davidbeach!
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
That induction heat thing is so well-known that I thought it could be excluded. Also, we have not got any information about current in the cables. Only that "The city only was using about 60 percent of that cable's capacity so I can't see how the magnetic heating effect could create enough heat to push the cable's temperature high enough to create that fault"
The OP has already contemplated the effect of induction heating and asks for comments. A cable carrying 60 % current causes about 36 % heating and since the elbow probably is surrounded by dirt, I think that the cooling is adequate.
Many questions remain unanswered. The main question is: What is the rated current? Other questions are: Bend radius? Vertical stretches that put constant pull forces on the cables? Surrounding material? Dimensions of cable and elbow? Elbow materiel? (Sheet steel, stainless, cast iron?) Dimensions, current, material and cooling have an influence on temperature rise. Many installations are OK even if there is one phase per steel tube or elbow.
I find it too easy to say that magnetic heating is the cause. It may very well be so, but that effect is so well known by all people in the trade that a (conscious) violation seems unlikely. The OP does hint that there might be some other effect. Let's find out if there is.
There might even be a short-term overload that has hitherto gone unnoticed. A 1 hour peak recorder does not tell you the whole truth.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Yes, it is a well known issue, but apparently not by who ever did the installation. With those elbows in that installation they will always have problems, whether there are other contributing factors or not. There's not much point trying to figure out the minute contributions to the cable heating (which would be relatively uniformly distributed if it were overload related) while the significant source of heating remains.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Single conductor cable routed in separate ferrous metallic conduits produce a magnetic field induction creating circulating current throughout the metal conduit elbow. The heat generated by the Joule effect (RI^2) may exceed the thermal rating causing a premature failure in the insulation.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Failure on any electrical component is characterized by the sum of the stresses in time.
We are suspecting the thermal stresses are the lead cause of failure and we may add that metallic elbow is not a good engineering practice with single conductor cable. However, at this moment there is not sufficient information to rule out any potential combination of causes or determine the exact reason of the failure.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
On the second statement, while there may be other contributing factors the description of the failures is exactly what is to be expected given the steel elbows. With an installation problem known to cause the exact failure found, and a problem that is expected to cause such failures in the future, why look for other possible causes rather than just dealing with the one?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
I appreciate the education, but I still insist that the magnetic heating is (close to) an I2R effect. It is well known that hysterisis has a slightly higher exponent. Steinmetz, I think, used 2.3 - 2.6 for hysterisis heating. Depending on steel quality, frequency and penetration.
The eddy current effect is a pure I2R effect. It is hard to know which effect is dominant as long as we do not have data from the installation.
So, with the higher exponent (2.6 instead of 2) the resulting heat would be even less at 60 percent current - about 13 or 14 percent. If we only have eddy currents, it would be 36 percent. As said before.
What I mean to say is that one should not always jump to the first conclusion that presents itself. It is sometimes wise to think twice - or thrice.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
When there's a four foot diameter hole in the bottom of the boat, why look for slow leaks around the joints?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
The OP presented the "four foot diameter hole" and said that he would like some comments and thoughts beyond that. That is what I have tried to give him. I am sorry that you do not like that.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
I read your comments as discounting the possibility of the steel elbows generating enough heat to cause the problem, if that was not your intent, I'm sorry I misread.
Sure, there could be many other things wrong with that circuit, but as long as those steel elbows are in place, the other problems won't have enough time to develop a failure before the elbows melt the insulation again.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
You can get an installation that is very mechanically strong by encasing PVC elbows in concrete. Just be careful that rebars do not go in between phases which will also create an induction heating hazard. ( NB: Rebars really only need to be on the outside of the concrete encasement anyways. ) For an important feeder or circuit concrete encasement increases circuit integrity. Having 6 to 12 inches of concrete over the topmost conduit provides better protection against digins and coloring the concrete red porvides even better protection yet.
Also, concrete encasement helps spread out heat particularly if your soil presents a lot of heat resistance. If your soil is sandy you most definitely need to use concrete to spread out the heat.
Also, where nylon or steel rope saws into elbows is if the elbow has too small of a radius OR the rope is too small in diameter. We use nylon rope for a lot of wire pulling but it is either Jetline twine or more like 1/2 inch. The problem with high strength ropes is to use a smaller diameter ropes which creates more sawing pressure at elbows. If the sawing pressure is low enough sawing does not occur.
You can also use polypropylene rope if you would rather use a large diameter rope but be very careful of what you buy. The polypropylene rope that is rated for installing and removing submersible well pumps is very good stuff. There are basically 2 grades of polypropylene rope which is the really good stuff that is rated against rotting due to water exposure and cheap crap. The cheap stuff also tends to break without warning because the fibers are of unequal strength and other quality problems.
When I was moving a factory I liked to use 1/4 inch polypropylene rope for up to 100 amp wire pulls and 3/8 nylon for 200 amp wire pulls. The latter was pulled in using a set of sheaves that redirected the rope so that we could use a forklift truck. Any vehicle with a torque converter makes for an excellent wire pulling machine.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Note to others, this is certainly not recommended practice except possibly as a one-time emergency fix for this particular situation.
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
The only way of eliminating the effect without removing the elbows or cutting them would be to short each elbow to the conductor enclosed, at both ends of the elbow. That would eliminate the heating, but then you would need 15kV insulation on the outside of the elbow. THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDED SOLUTION.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
It might be possible to remove the conductors and re-pull them such that there are A-B-C phase in each conduit, depending on the conductor size, conduit size, etc. I have done this before for fairly short runs where the client had three conductors per phase. It's a lot of work, but if the conduit is embedded in concrete, it might be worth thinking about. You might have to re-conductor to get a configuration that works with the existing conduits.
Splitting the steel elbow as mentioned would solve the heating problem, but then you would have created
other problems. If you're a consultant or engineer-of-record, you should try to steer them toward a permanent solution that complies with NEC.
If they choose another path, then at least you tried.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
I would be very cautious of the 4 kV system if it is installed the same way. You'd want to recommend fixing them both, since both are NEC violations.
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
We have yet to know what currents were involved in the 13 kV and the 4 kV systems.
We know that there were not more than 60 percent of rated current in the 13 kV system - which failed. How many amperes would that be?
And how many amperes are there in the sucessful 4 kV system?
Please, tefaber, we need that information to be able to judge this case correctly.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
You have 535x0.60 = 321 amps in the 13 kV circuit. And 430x.80 = 344 amps in your 4 kV circuit.
And you have what is supposed to be magnetic heating in the 13 kV circuit and not in the 4 kV circuit (where you actually seem to have a higher current). Are conditions comparable otherwise? I do not understand US cable numbers - is the 4 kV cable a single phase cable like the 13 kV cable is?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: Cable Heating From Using Steel Conduit Elbows?
We were sent out to wire a large submersible well pump, something along the lines of 200hp. When we got to the site there were three individual conductors stubbed out of 3-1" threaded hubs on the top of the wellhead. Re-pulling the cable was not an option, the well was several hundred feet deep with the motor at the bottom. My boss at the time decides to use 3 1 x 12 rigid nipples to support a junction box, running each wire of the 3 phase through it own nipple. When we started it up it was a matter of seconds before the 12" nipples were too hot to touch.
We bought aluminum nipples, sawed between the knockouts in the junction box like NEC requires, end of heating problem. The top of the well head with the three hubs was cast iron, I realize there were eddy currents there, but the mass of the casting and the cold water moving past kept it cool.