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Are they countries or not?
3

Are they countries or not?

Are they countries or not?

(OP)
Are Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England independant countries?  Or countries, but not independant?  Or are they something else?

Maybe we should step back and define, "What constitutes a country?"

The United Kingdom is a member of the UN, and a permanent member of the Security Council.  If Scotland is a country, is it entitled to join the UN as a full-fledged member?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Scotland is a country but it is not a free and independant one.  We are ruled by England.

RE: Are they countries or not?

By most definitions, Wales, Scotland and England are "nations" (a common people and culture) but not "nation-states" or "countries". Likewise Greenland, Bermuda, Puerto Rico.

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Are they countries or not?

Ibrox2003 - I think it's a case of Scotland being partly governed by England and not "ruled". That sounds like something from the dark ages. Scotland is also most definitely a free country as well in democratic terms.


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RE: Are they countries or not?


Ibrox2003


Did not James the 4th of Scotland become King of England and so unite the two Kingdoms?

RE: Are they countries or not?

If you have your own independent military you have your own country.  Does Scotland, Wales, or whoever up there?  Seriously, does anybody know?

In 1979, Greenland was finally awarded "home rule within the Danish Commonwealth," allowing them to elect their own parliament and set up their own local government.

The danes still control greenland.

Puerto Ricans are US citizens and subject to the draft, etc..  Neither Greenland or Peurto Rico can be declared a nation MikeyP.  

nation as a common people and culture is a nice broad definition, but we all know the mixing pot phenomena now so nicely hitting europe. (have fun!! HAHAHA) USA is a swirl of differences, but we are a nation, what say you to that?

It was my original belief that England owned the island.  Ireland was the only independent country over there?  I gotta check my facts though..


RE: Are they countries or not?

Different laws apply in Scotland than to England. Wales and Northern Ireland I'm not sure about. It's difficult to say that Scotland is ruled by England given so many scottish mps presently in government. What's Gordon Brown's view on this I wonder?

corus

RE: Are they countries or not?

Drej: Governed or ruled.  What's the difference?

Roadbridge: James 6th was the first joint monarch in 1603.  Union of Parliaments was not until 1707.  That was achieved by coercion, military threat and bribery.  The English court appointed both sets of negotiators!

NathanLee: Scotland does not have independant military forces.

In any case I think this is becoming political discussion and heading off-topic etc.

Regards

RE: Are they countries or not?

NathanLee,

From the Concise Oxford Dictionary

country: a nation with its own government occupying a particular territory.

nation: a large aggregate of people united by common descent, culture or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

Under those definitions both Puerto Rico and Greenland are definitely nations, and possibly countries. However I have seen other definitions of "country" which stress independent sovereignty to be crucial. In which case Greenland and Puerto Rico are not countries. Likewise England, Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland are nations and not countries.

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Are they countries or not?

england, scotland, wales are considered different nations (ie cultures ... don't try to call a scot "english", unless you want a fight)

i won't count them as different countries, despite having their own parliaments.

that being said, they compete as separate "countries" in sports (rugby, soccer).

ireland has the fortune to be two different countries (erie, and north ireland), one culture (irish) ... tho' that's debatable (some north irish would prefer to be called british, but never english) and i think they combine to compete in sports.

RE: Are they countries or not?

Most of us here in USA just see them as countries and don't care you runs/owns who. Just my 2 cents.

Chris, Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Are they countries or not?

NathanLee (Industrial)
MikeyP,

Doctor MikeyP.. How can one accept Wales as a nation when they pay taxes to britain?  their inhabitants rent their existence from britain.  Wales as a nation is as ludicrous as New York or California the nation.  (Which actually makes some sense, Cali has the worlds 6th biggest economy or something like that.)  Does Wales send teams to the olympics?  Do they have an army., No, they are brits.  what a pointless arguement, what are we even arguing?  nation is a broad safe blanket of a word.  how large is large etc., there is no answer to this as perspective is diluted by nationalism., like quebec in canada...

read me

http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/scotlandnot.htm

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)

Quote (NathanLee):

How can one accept Wales as a nation when they pay taxes to britain (sic)?
The people of Wales can be considered a nation because they are a community of people with a common history, culture, and language.  However, just because Wales is a nation, that does NOT mean that Wales is a country.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Great link NathanLee, it does possibly raise more questions than it answers.

If England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are not countries, why do they play as such in the world cup for example or the six nations a rugby competition involving all plus France and Italy? Do any other non-nations play in the world cup?

If item 7 is true (I have no reason to doubt it) “Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.”

Is any country in the European Union actually now a country? Or is the European union not a state and if not what is it?

RE: Are they countries or not?

good points ajack1

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
ajack1 - The answer to your question is in your question.

==> If England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are not countries, why do they play as such in the world cup for example or the six nations rugby competition?

They are not playing as countries, they are playing as nations.  Nation and country are not the same thing.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

CajunCountry

But the football World Cup isn't for nations is it?

RE: Are they countries or not?

Interestingly, in football, there are two national Irish teams: ROI and Northern Ireland.  In rugby, all of Ireland plays as one team.

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
Ibrox2003 - Actually, the FIFA competition is between 32 national teams and for 2006, German is the host nation.

FIFA requires that teams be sponsored by recogonized national associations.  There is no requirement that there only be one association per country.  It is one team per national association.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
Perhaps this page will help clarify the difference between a nation and a country.
Country, State, and Nation

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

CajunCenturion

Actually the World Cup is played for by a lot more than 32 national teams.  You are referring to the finals only and not the whole competition.

Regards

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
Yes, I was thinking about the finals, that's true.  All of the teams that enter the preliminaries must be from recognized national associations.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

There is pressure from African countries for the special position of the UK to be eliminated and for the UK to be represented by one team representing all of the constituent countries of the UK rather than the present 4.

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
That would be an interesting tangent to investigate, but the World Cup activity probably deserves its own thread in a more appropriate forum.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Indeed.

Btw the link you provided is interesting but it seems to be an opinion piece.  Is there a generally accepted legal definition?

Regards

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
==> Is there a generally accepted legal definition?
Under whose law code?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
Tough room.  Nevertheless, here are some definitions from an on-line legal dictionary.

Duhaime's Online Legal Dictionary

Quote (Nation):

A group or race of people that share history, traditions and culture. The United Kingdom is comprised of four nations or national groups: the English, Scots, Irish and Welsh. Canada includes French-Canadians, English-Canadians and a number of aboriginal nations. Thus, states may be comprised of one or several nations. It is common English to use the word "nation" when referring to what is known in law as "states."

Quote (State):

A term of international law: those groups of people which have acquired international recognition as an independent country and which have four characteristics; permanent and large population with, generally, a common language; a defined and distinct territory; a sovereign government with effective control; and a capacity to enter into relations with other states (i.e. recognized by other states). The USA, Canada and China are examples of states. States are the primary subjects of international law. The United Nations is comprised of all the states of the world. Some large states have subdivided into smaller units each having limited legislative powers normally restricted to subjects which are more properly regulated at a local, rather than a national level. Thus, the states of the USA are not really "states" under international law. It is common for the general public and English dictionaries to use the word "nations" to refer to what international law calls "states."

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Ibrox: you say "Governed or ruled.  What's the difference?". No difference, probably, apart from the obvious grammatical definition. There is a country mile of difference between ruled/governed and partially-ruled though. On the subject of Wales, I'd like to see people here telling the peoples of Wales that they're not a nation, especially on wafer thin arguments such as "How can one accept Wales as a nation when they pay taxes to britain?". Please. Go and say this to a Plaid Cymru member especially, but stand well back. Wales has its own language, its own government, its own unique culture, its independence and the MPs who represent it. Enough already, it's a nation of peoples.

And isn't this entire thread slightly inappropriate consider this forum is "Engineering Language/Grammar Skills"?


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RE: Are they countries or not?

drej, this isn't the grand vissah of forums, just a discussion, therefore, entirely appropriate as we dicuss what we choose to discuss.  I will tell a wales native straight up that i don't consider them a NATION because in the states, though we see differences between say, New Yorkers and Californians, we don't get haughty taughty about it and demand that we are different NATIONS.  To us, that island is Brits and Irishmen.  all that wales, scots, etc etc is antiquated jibber jabber.  To be clear, Wales is not an independent nation.  They are like a canton, or state., but not a nation.  that's my opinion.  btw, yes or no, do they or do they not get taxed by britain?  eh? yes or no..

RE: Are they countries or not?

Dear me, this is not about a difference of opinion, this is bare-face, cast-iron, solid facts. In fact, it's more than that. It's like me telling you that I think America isn't a country. I'd be wrong. Just as you are. Very, very wrong.


------------
See FAQ569-1083 for details on how to make best use of Eng-Tips.com

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)

Quote (NathanLee):

To us, that island is Brits and Irishmen
Who is 'us'?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Nathan you need to speak for yourself.  Not all of us Americans think like you do.

RE: Are they countries or not?

UcfSE: Thanks for clarifying that point. :)

RE: Are they countries or not?

If we are going to get technical and official, if the Second Continental Congress lacked the authority to declare independence, then is the USA also still part of the UK, or was it granted independence in the treaty of 1783?

RE: Are they countries or not?

Actually Drej, you would be right in saying that America isn't a country.  America is, in fact, two continents.  

Cheers,
CanuckMiner

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
From the Paris treaty:

Quote:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

NathanLee

The US is full of aboriginal groups who call themselves nations. Are you saying that they should not be?

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Are they countries or not?

Quote (NathanLee):

we discuss what we choose to discuss.
Actually we discuss what we are allowed  to discuss. This forum is owned & moderated by jimbo. He has the "power" of veto over all threads & individual posts in them.

Also, this is an "Engineering Language/Grammar Skills" forum & its introductory title is

Quote:

Advancement in an organization is frequently based on your ability to communicate correctly in writing. The intent of this group is a light-hearted but serious discussion of the language with which engineers communicate.
Thank you for showing us your poorly constructed and incompetently capitalized samples.

BTW, what is a "grand vissah"?


Making the best use of this Forum.  FAQ559-716
How to get answers to your SW questions.  FAQ559-1091
Helpful SW websites every user should be aware of.  FAQ559-520

RE: Are they countries or not?

Hmm, some nice points here,
Cajun,
I hope the US got similar concessions from the Spanish, the French and the Mexican governments for the other "states".
By the way, we should not discount the long memories of many racial, ethnic, geopolitical or whatever other groups.

The recent example of the former Yugoslavia is a case in point.

How secure is the Union (the USA)? it wouldn't do to forget that in recent times Texas maintained its own embassy in London and still exhibits a proud independance and who can say when the worlds fourth largest economy will decide to go its own way (California already seems to enact its own legislation quite out of step with the rest of the Union).

There are reports that some Swiss Cantons would like independance and I find it ironic that some "countries" chaffing under the "British" rule are so strongly in favour of the EU where they are even more strictly regulated, with even less self determination and less representation (a high proportion of the UK government are actually Scottish including Tony Blair and George Brown; the tail wagging the dog?).

One US study suggested that the EU would not just collapse but do so bloodily.

The continuing strong cultural identity of the French Canadians is another potential fracture point.

If we look at any political construct long enough we can see the fault lines and we have had many demonstrations of just how fragile many such political constructs are, especially those that cut across other more "natural" groupings; e.g. Macedonins, Kurds, Azaries etc who have their ethnic populations split between different countries.

It is all down to circumstance and the best incitement to bring about such fractionation is to disregard other peoples group and individual identities or take them too much for granted.

So the discussion about whether Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, or any other group, are countries, nations or whatever ought to be considered as a legitimate linguistic query but with due regard to the fact that behind this we are dealing with real people.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Are they countries or not?

They are countries, as defined within/by the UK. Other countries apparently have differing definitions of country.

"In 1969 the Royal Commission on the Constitution was set up with the aim of examining the relation between central legislature and government on one hand and the "several countries, nations and regions of the United Kingdom" on the other.

The Report of the Commission .... speaks of the four "countries" that make up the United Kingdom: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."

source;www.know-britain.com

RE: Are they countries or not?

Presumably none of you are constitutional lawyers, so it seems to me that this is all a lot of guff.

This is the second dissapointing thread I've seen in the Engineering Language/Grammar Skills Forum today.

Surely there's a forum on some other website where you can discuss the the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland, the devolution movement and the nationhood, or otherwise, of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

RE: Are they countries or not?

Yes, it is way off the forum's intent, but you don't need to be an expert to discuss a topic.
What this is telling us is that there is a significant interest in discussing non-engineering topics, like Pat's Pub, but less elitist.

Pat's Pub: "A forum for long term, highly active, responsible and valuable members to discuss less serious topics and conduct off topic or even frivolous conversations".

RE: Are they countries or not?

(OP)
jmw - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.  

Could a state attempt to seceed from the Union?  It's possible and it wouldn't be the first time.  But is California a country?  No. Is California a Nation?  No, it's way too diverse to be a nation.  However, there are nations within the USA, most notably the American Indians.  But they are nations, not countries, nor states (little s).

Individual states (little s) within the USA are neither nations nor countries; although one could make a case for Alaska and Hawaii being nations due to their unique history and culture, very different from that of the contiguous states.

Is Wales a country?  No.  Is Wales a nation?  In my opinion, absolutely.

Countries are defined by administrative and political units which meet certain criteria, among them sovereignty and international recognition before they become States.  By international recognition, for example, can Wales enter into an international treaty with another country?   Can California?  In either case, I don't think so.  Neither is recognized by the international community as a State (Capital S).

Nations, on the other hand, are defined by cultural boundaries.

If and when -- and it often does -- the cultural boundaries of a nation coincide with administrative boundaries of a country, then you have a nation-state.  Isreal is a nation-state.  Palestine is a nation, but should be, and hopefully soon will be, a nation-state or country.  Germany is a nation-state.  France is a nation-state.  The United Kingdom is a State consisting of four nations.

It think this discussion is quite appropriate for this forum becase at its most basic level it shows the confusion, misunderstanding, and misuse of some basic terms:  nation, country, State (capital S), and state (little S), and nation-state.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Are they countries or not?

Quote:

Actually Drej, you would be right in saying that America isn't a country.  America is, in fact, two continents.  

Cheers,
CanuckMiner

North America,
South Amertica,
Latin America??,
Central America,
the America's

another..

Britain,
Britannia,
Great Britain,
British Isles,
United Kingdom

no wonder I'm confused

RE: Are they countries or not?

dbuzz:

"Presumably none of you are constitutional lawyers ..."

Bringing the thread back into the realms of grammar and language, perhaps you meant:

"Presumably none of you is a constitutional lawyer ..."

Because none is singular pronoun, not a plural (a contraction of not one).

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