Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
(OP)
"Are Pseudo Engineers Common?" has been a very popular thread which I've enjoyed reading for several months. SHall we discuss, now, what disciplines SHALL require licensure?
I am a structural engineer in design of building structures and my opinion is that my discipline directly affects public life and safety and therefore should require licensure.
In this fora, there are engineers of many disciplines, to include mechanical, electrical, chemical, automotive and so on. Let's discuss each of these disciplines and talk about whether licensing should be required for each.
I am a structural engineer in design of building structures and my opinion is that my discipline directly affects public life and safety and therefore should require licensure.
In this fora, there are engineers of many disciplines, to include mechanical, electrical, chemical, automotive and so on. Let's discuss each of these disciplines and talk about whether licensing should be required for each.





RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Bob
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
If the whole issue of licensure makes people more comfortable, so be it. I agree the factory worker has the right to the same degree of safety and a feeling of security while working under something suspended from the building steel as he does when he enters the building. So that nobody jumps to any conclusions, we do have a PE from a consultancy analyse the building structure, recommend and design reinforcing if necessary to accommodate the additional loads.
Having said that, the procedure and requirements for licensure would have to be revised to establish a reasonable equivalency for formal education and demonstration of competency through past experience in the workplace for the non licensed and non degreed. I suspect a number of PE’s and up and coming PE’s would disagree due to the resultant saturation. If anyone could not demonstrate that competency, they shouldn’t be there in the first place but I for one, because I don’t hold a degree, would not like to relieved of my present duties or plunged out of work because of the licensing requirements that are currently in place.
Notice that I’ve avoided the “e” title so far as this thread is dealing with licensure and not the right to use the title. I think the combination of the two subjects was the reason why the previous threads were going round in circles. A thread, as started by me, solely for the discussion of the right to use the “e” title ended up dealing more with licensure.
Furthermore, I think the designation on the seal, correspondence, business cards etc., should be PE (Struct), PE (Mech), PE (Civil) and so on to prevent any misconception that may arise by simply using PE. In general, I would imagine that verbally, most PE’s quantify the initials with the appropriate adjective.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
I agree that there would need to be some well thought out steps to get everyone licensed. With licensure comes the commitment from us engineers to end the industry exempt status. Industry would now have to employ lincesed engineers, by our decision, not theirs like it currently is. Industry will not like this, but we engineers can wrestle our profession back from them I think and this wold answer the saturation problem. As for the seperate designation,I am not eprsonally in favor of it, but it is something we could work on I am sure....For instance I am a cicil engineer, but I specialize in turbomachinery and pressure hydraulics...typical of mechanical engineering...I think we can develop the licensure system to accomodate our needs...the exciting part would be we would set the system up...if only we could all get organized and make the leap.....
Bob
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
The roles of each disciplines (though overly simplified) are summarized below:
1. Architect - mastermind and coordinator of all disciplines
2. Structural Engineer - designs the skeleton of the structure to resist anticipated loads
3. Mechanical Engineer - designs the heating and ventilation system as well as piping in a structure
4. Electrical Engineer - designs the electrical wiring and lighting for the structure
5. Civil Engineer - survey of the lot, designs site drainage
6. Geotechnical Engineer - writes engineering reports indicating design resommendations for the foundation
Again, I believe that licensing requirements are absolutely necessary for the above disciplines to minimize public risk.
There are additional disciplines available for licensure in my state which include: Agricultural, Chemical, Control Systems, Fire Protection, Industrial, Metallurgical, Nuclear, Petroleum, and Traffic. I know little about their roles in society but at least the government determined that licensure is necessary to control the minimum level of acceptance in their competency in these fields.
There are many fields of engineering not covered by existing licenses and IF all engineering shall require licensure, the government has to invent names of specific field of engineering and conduct standardized testing procedure that must encompass a knowledge level that is suitable for that particular field. This will not be an easy task.
Currently, the seal of a licensed professional engineer must bear the discipline in which one is competent. I believe this is a requirement in my state and not necessarily all. When an electrical engineer stamps a set of drawings containing structural information, building officials will easily identify that it is in appropriate and require the designer to provide a structural stamp. Although not perfect, the system is in place where measures are taken by the government for the benefit of the public.
Discussions along this line was intended from my original post. I would like all your valuable input.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
A clear distinction should be made between the type of electrical engineer you are using, and another one who is designing filters for a software-based-radio project. Clearly, this project is not as firmly tied to everyday life and would not endanger the lives of anyone (within reason).
Requiring the PE for electrical engineering work seems to be more of a formality than anything to me. I do not see it as practical except for certain applications, and whyun mentioned one. You cannot gain the competency and experience needed to know safe ways to wire a structure unless you actually do have the experience (field) with seeing it done and learning from others.
Other things you are easily able to become competent doing in school alone. And that's why I don't support mandatory licensure. Some might be offended by a 'recording engineer' calling themselves that because most of what they studied involved more business and copyright law than rigorous math and science, but I say, just look at their resume. They cannot call themselves an EE in good faith because they did not go through and get an EE degree. In addition, that one op-amp circuit they built doesn't qualify them for work in power engineering, and qualified engineers will quickly find this out about people that like to inflate their title.
Jim Goebel,
Electrical Engineer
Mid-West Forensics, Inc.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Are you talking about universal licensing or merely the current system where the unlicensed design staff is supervised by the licensed staff? Because the two are totally different. I deal with unlicensed engineers all the time in my non-license exempt industry and they regularly interface with other licensed and unlicensed engineers. Some of these unlicensed engineers are even in supervisory roles. As long as they have a licensed superior who takes responsibility for their work, they are compliant with the letter of the law, if not the spirit of it.
Your definition of the roles that the various diciplines play in the engineering world is very simplified to say the least and is typical of the viewpoint of the civil/structural folks that I have met over the years. Most engineers work for manufacturing companies designing their products. I know one ME who works in the automotive industry and another who works on aircraft and I myself have designed fluid process equipment, pressure vessels and steam piping.
My opinion: I vote for universal licensing in the USA, but I also want to open the PE exam up to anyone regardless of where they have worked and for whom. The current method of qualifying to take the exam requires you to utilize the "buddy system" for your references. I think that the exam should stand alone. This would reduce the voices of the opponents who say we are trying to use it as a substitute union.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
I would slot him in the mechanical engineering disipline...wouldn't think?
Bob
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
From the 2005 Professional Engineers Act
http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/2005_pe_act.pdf
6731.5. Electrical engineering defined
(a) Electrical engineering 6734.1 that embraces studies or activities of electrical energy, including the technical control of their operation research, organizational, and economic aspects of the above.
(b) The design of electronic electrical engineering, as defined in subdivision (a).
6731.6. Mechanical engineering
Mechanical engineering is 6734.2 that deals with engineering of energy in the thermal or mechanical production of tools, machinery, and plumbing. It is concerned with the economic aspects of the above.
6734.1. Practice of electrical engineering
Any person practices electrical engineering when he professes to or is in responsible charge of electrical engineering work.
6734.2. Practice of mechanical engineering
Any person practices mechanical engineering when he professes engineer or is in responsible charge of mechanical engineering work.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
1. Buried Electrical Ductbanks - Conduit/conductor sizing based on electrical requirements. Reinforced Concrete Design & Construction. Excavation & Backfill (settlement issues). Whose call is it - Electrical? Structural? Civil? Geotechnical?
2. Large, High Pressure Steam Pipe Hangers - Thermal expansion & flow issues. Significant (structural) loading concerns. Mechanical? Structural?
3. Industrial Electrical Grounding Systems - Electrical conductivity. Ground wire routing. Ground rod/soil interface. Excavation & Backfill. Electrical? Civil?
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Depends...But why would you single out Civil Engineers for your question, just curious....
Bob
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
As for disciplines I am registered as Mechanical but only do Aircraft Structures with occasional some light systems work.
The Canadian Societies are very strong on enforcement and regulation. I believe the Microsoft Engineer issue has a legal injunction baring it's use.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Former HR at former job used to claim that she managed the DRAM development group at our company.
The fact that the division then crashed and burned apparently was irrelevant, since that was a "production" problem, although it was demonstrably a "design" problem that sank the production line.
TTFN
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
I believe that universal licensure for all engineers is impractical. Folks who design cell phones, silly putty or any consumer goods need not be licensed. The descriptions of engineers in my previous post describes each as they relate to what I do - building design. I'm sure there are mechanical and electrical engineers who design microchips and missiles among other things and I also believe that they need not be licensed.
My intent in describing each of the engineering disciplines as they relate to my career and indicating that licensure should be required for a certain segment of those engineering fields was in an effort to protect the public.
I would not imply that non-licensed engineers are incompetent to perform certain types of work as there are many brilliant individuals out there. Nor would I imply that all licensed engineers are competent.
People in the consulting world shall exercise their code of ethics in engineering and perform their duties to improve society and practice within their area of expertise.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
You are right about the business schools, but it is only because we let them manage us...
I have left firms when the boss became a non-engineer....It is a horrible place to have to be...fortunately, I could make a change, but I feel for those that cannot.
Bob
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Our current head is a finance guy and oddly enough, he's the best one I've had in a long time; precisely because he knows that he's got lots of engineers that are supposed to understand the engineering issues and he stays out of the fray.
TTFN
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
Thanks for the clarification. But I've seen too much rubber stamping by PEs of their non-PE subordinate's work. And I've seen to much illegal unlicensed practice. So I vote for universal licensing. That way we don't have to worry about who has achieved minimum competence and who hasn't. And we won't have to worry about who's work significantly impacts the public's safety and who's doesn't. Let the authorities decide which product's drawings need to be stamped. Give the engineering community some kind of grace period (5 - 10 years like someone I know suggested) to get their licenses.
RE: Disciplines where Licensure shall be a Requirement
In the AEC world, you are correct about too many rubber stamping. I've also witnessed it.
Ideally, in order to have a stable yet profittable consulting engineering business, one can not hire all licensed PE's. A medium size firm consists of a few old-timers, several senior level licensed engineers, several mid-level engineers licensed or just about to, then some fresh engineers right out of school.
As in any type of engineering, there is grunt work. An engineer with twenty years of experience will take just as much time doing these chores as one just out of school. It makes sense for a firm to establish a proper training system where the most junior performs the most mundane task (which in itself is training) with supervision. Over time, they will “earn” their way up the food chain.
Many firms have difficulty with the supervision part. The head of the department may stamp without appropriate review just like you stated.
With or without requiring PE licenses, public is exposed to risk due to these circumstances. Therefore, more conscious engineers, licensed or not, must be more proactive in minimizing the risk.
Oh... about illegal unlicensed practice... upon reading about the cases in my state, my opinion is that the penalty is very small (in many cases, a fine of a few thousand dollars). They continue practicing illegally because the "earnings" from it far exceeds the fine.