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Date formatting
4

Date formatting

Date formatting

(OP)
Anymore how do you tell if 06-05-2005 means June 5th or May 6th?  For 50 years, where I live at least, it would have been interpreted as June 6th.  Someone, probably a computer weenie, started turning it around and it is catching on.  I 'll bet he's the same guy that started using periods in phone numbers instead of dashes maybe.

DB

RE: Date formatting

(OP)
I've seen things like 13-06-2005 used more than a few times.  And they weren't typos.  They were for June.

DB

RE: Date formatting

I work in a mixed UK/US company and we've decided between us that any form is ok so long as it's unambiguous (e.g. if one of the first two numbers is greater than 12, then that must be the month number).  If it is ambiguous it must be spelled out some other way (like 05Jul05).

However, many Americans I work with tend to (arrogantly in my opinion) insist that their MM/DD/YY is right.

I personally (being a computer nerd) like it backwards so that bigger numbers are later: 2005/07/05 or if I'm being really nerdy, 1120573399.

(As an aside, I got a citation in the US once for not carrying an in-date insurance card in my car.  My card said it would expire on 1-9-1997 and it was only May.)

RE: Date formatting

Duh, need to read before posting!!

... if one of the first two numbers is greater than 12, then that must be the DAY number

RE: Date formatting

(OP)
Yeah, but unless whatever you're reading makes reference to a day with a date greater than 12, you don't really have the context in which to interpret the ones that don't.  I'm not really trying to figure out how to avoid being confusing--13 Feb 2005, is my solution--I was just curious about the source of the practice.

DB

RE: Date formatting

In the UK it has always been day/ month/year. I personally think year/month/day makes more sense as if you were giving the time you would say it in hours/minutes/seconds. At least we give seconds/minutes/hours.

To the best of my knowledge the American standard is month/day/year I have no idea if they give the time as minutes/seconds/hours, it would not surprise me they are a strange bunch.

I guess the reason is the same as why they drive on the wrong side of the road and cannot spell colour.

RE: Date formatting

(OP)
Color

DB

RE: Date formatting

My guess is that at some point way back in history (and I don't feel like looking it up!) the British talked about dates as the 3rd of May and so adopted the shorthand dd/mm/yy and Americans were more likely to say May 3rd so shorthanded their dates as mm/dd/yy. And then globalisation and the interweb came along and we each decided that the others got it wrong....

RE: Date formatting

If it is "3rd of May" in the UK and "May 3" in the U.S., then why is the U.S. (American) holiday called the "Fourth of July"?  Were they technically still British in 1776 and not officially American until the war ended in 1783?

RE: Date formatting

kchayfie: "My guess is that at some point way back in history (and I don't feel like looking it up!) the British talked about dates as the 3rd of May and so adopted the shorthand dd/mm/yy"


We still do.  And I think Americans say the "Fourth of July" because it lends sophistication to an otherwise average phrase.  Why else have a capital F for Fourth?

RE: Date formatting

==> Why else have a capital F for Fourth?

I don't know, maybe it's a proper noun?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Date formatting

I've been using 3rd of May and May the 3rd interchangeably for as long as I can remember. I guess dropping the "the" is more of an American thing in modern usage but other than that I thought we both tended to say both but write the shorthand differently?

RE: Date formatting

blackwed,

with all respect, computer weenies now rule the planet.  it would be best to not aggravate them.  

mm/dd/year

RE: Date formatting

==> with all respect, computer weenies now rule the planet.  it would be best to not aggravate them.
Actually, I find that comment somewhat aggravating.

In any event, if "computer weenies" did rule the planet, dates would be YYYYMMDD.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Date formatting

Nope, as I mentioned earlier, the ultimate computer nerd unit is "Seconds Since Epoch".  When I posted it was still 112057339, but it's probably a few thousand higher now.

RE: Date formatting

The Declaration of Independence was finished on July 4th, 1776.

RE: Date formatting

The EU has decided that it shall be YYYY-MM-DD. So, today is 2005-07-05. Good for computer guys, perhaps. Anyhow, I find it logical and easy to remember since the smaller units of time are to the right. Just like the HH:MM:SS format for time of day.

Myself? I write "(the) 5th July 2005" Like it or not, but never confused anyone with that.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Date formatting

4-7-1776...

I used to find it really amusing that (when I worked over there) every year I'd be given an extra day off work to celebrate one of our minor western colonies finally growing up.

RE: Date formatting

38538 in MS Excel represents 7/5/2005.  Apparently January 1, 1900 is equivalent to 1 and the last date MS Excel will accept is 12/31/9999 in Gregorian calendar.

I much prefer YYYY-MM-DD when it comes to recording dates in the computer.  It makes sorting much simpler.

RE: Date formatting

I spent enough formative years on both sides of the Atlantic that I'm completely confused.  I like the logic of D/M/Y (ever-increasing units rather than medium-small-big), but I'm surrounded by M/D/Y and find myself slipping thataways now and again.  In other words, I mix them freely and can't be relied on.  I've taken to mostly writing "12 Jun 2003" format.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Date formatting

I think you'll find that it's not "Seconds Since Epoch", but rather "Milli-Seconds Since Epoch".  But any computer nerd will also tell you that the scheme has an upper limit, specifically, the maximum value permissable given the number of bytes allocated to the chosen storage type.  The scheme also requires formatting, and it's value will require formatting to be meaningful other than in sequence.  That's why "practical" computer nerds do not favor that scheme.

I will conceed that "practical" is usually not high on the list of computer nerd attributes, and perhaps that not many of us are very practical.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Date formatting

Hi Hg,

What happened 2003-06-13?

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Date formatting

I dunno.  I'll check with my subconscious and get back to you if it tells me anything useful.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Date formatting

This whole debate is almost as bad as the correct "111 for 6" form for a cricket score against the weird Aussie "6 for 111".  (dig, dig, poke poke...) Just another Crown vs Colony argument that adds colour (not color ) to life.

Bung
Life is non-linear...

RE: Date formatting

I have to wonder where the OP lives. Anyone who thinks that 06-05-2005 means the 6th of June is asking for trouble...

Personally I'm happy with DD/MM/YYYY, or (as some of our foreign customers use) YYYY/MM/DD, but I can't really see any logic in MM/DD/YYYY.

Horses for courses, I suppose. Vive la difference!

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

RE: Date formatting

I'm with whyun: yyyy-mm-day for sorting purposes.  For instance, all meeting minutes for a given project can be sorted by name if they are "Meeting minutes 2005 07 12 Topic........"

But who cares.  I can't make that work in my small company let alone the world.

RE: Date formatting

is today the 13th of july or july 13th ?

depending on how the answer that is how you (and presumably the people around you) will abbreviate the date.

as with other posters, i've adopted 13-JUL (to save confusing myself)

sorry, but i think starting with the year is good only for filing.

RE: Date formatting

Absolutely, rb1957.  I would not use YYYY-MM-DD for anything other than naming computer files.  For everything else, I suppose we all are caught in between MM-DD-YYYY and DD-MM-YYYY.

My driver license follows the MM-DD-YYYY format.
Expiration date on my PE license also follows the MM-DD-YYYY format.

How about other official documents (passports, birth certificates, etc).

My experience (in California) is that more often than not, you encounter month before day.  Folks from overseas (Europe?) uses the day before month format.

Date on the engineered documents, I've seen the 13JUL05 format.  Good on the drawings but horrible as part of a file name.

Oh... I say July 13th just like the "majority" of people around me, but on occasion we say 13th of July.

RE: Date formatting

and that's the root of it ...

americans (including canadians) tend to say july 13th, and english 13th of july ... not so sure about the europeans

RE: Date formatting

Since rb1957 asked about Europeans...

In French dates are spoken as the cardinal number followed by the month. So tomorrow, which we Anglophones call July 14th or 14th of July, would be "le quatorze juillet" in French. The French word for "fourteenth" is "quatorzième", but as I noted earlier they use cardinal numbers in their dates, not ordinal numbers.

Tomorrow is also a national holiday in France, which is why I'm using that particular date.

Getting back to date formats, they use DD/MM/YY, like most of the world.

RE: Date formatting

What about Asia and Africa?  Australia probably follows the English convention.

I respect each nation's decision in the convensions in most anything, no matter how peculiar it may be, as long as I am AWARE.  Driving on the left side is similar.  Neither way is "wrong", just "different".

RE: Date formatting

The differences between us add to life. I assume, always a bad thing, that dates from American collegues will be MM/DD/YY and from other countries DD/MM/YY. This of course falls apart when some one in the USA is trying to avoid confusion when writting to us Brits and uses DD/MM/YY.

Whyun's comment aboutdriving on the left is not quite the same, if we get the date wrong we may be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If we get the side of the road wrong we may be in Heaven of hell sooner than we expect.

RE: Date formatting

why was it necessary to change a perfectly good system of dd/mm/yy to what now is a stupid and confusing situation.   

Naresuan University
Phitsanulok
Thailand

RE: Date formatting

Hey Bung,

Until the Poms can repeatedly trounce the Aussies, maybe they should adopt the "6 for 111".

ASM

PS. I like 14 Jul 2005 for clarity, but like 2005_07_14 for computer filing.

RE: Date formatting

(OP)
G'mornin' all, OP here.  Didn't mean to stir up so much dust, well...maybe just a little.  Thanks for listening to the vent and for chiming in.  

Anyway, although I didn't say it up front I wasn't really talking about how data is arranged in a spreadsheet, database or other input to a computer system but about how processed information is ultimately presented to some end user, a user that may or may not be as "digitally literate" as the one doing the processing.

So my stand is that data to be manipulated by computer should be arranged however is most efficient for your application.  No doubt there are ways that are more efficient than others.  By all means use them.  But for prose, poetry and reports to the board, I say don't use a format that could be a source of confusion in an attempt to appear more cosmopolitan.  (If you start to think there may have been a specific event that prompted my first post you'd be correct.)

Personally, for more formal presentations, I like 04 July, 2005, and July 4, 2005, equally.  I would not release anything on company letterhead with a date that resembled 2005_07_04.  

For more informal communications, I will likely begin to use use 4 Jul and may even let a 7/4 slip into my personal journal.  

I would be surprised if the vast majority of people in the US didn't understand 7/4 to refer to a recently celebrated holiday.  If folks in your neck of the woods would understand it differently, it would be irresponsible of me (or you) to use it there--at least if we cared whether or not they caught their train.  Likewise, we got no business calling it 4/7 if most of our audience will read that as 7 April.

DB

RE: Date formatting

"I would be surprised if the vast majority of people in the US didn't understand 7/4 to refer to a recently celebrated holiday.  If folks in your neck of the woods would understand it differently, it would be irresponsible of me (or you) to use it there--at least if we cared whether or not they caught their train.  Likewise, we got no business calling it 4/7 if most of our audience will read that as 7 April."

This just reinforces my earlier comment - why was a perfectly good system changed to what now causes confusion.

Naresuan University
Phitsanulok
Thailand

RE: Date formatting

I think big-endian (YY/MM/DD) is the best, since it intuitively corresponds to normal numbers. After that little endian DD/MM/YY (which we use in Australia), and a distant third the horrid middle-endian american system of MM/DD/YY.

But seeing as we can't agree, I think the DD Mon. YYYY approach is good.

RE: Date formatting

Try: ISO 8601:2004 Data elements and interchange formats -- Information interchange -- Representation of dates and times

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Date formatting

I'm happy to adopt "6 for 111" assuming it's the Aussie score.

I turned up for a meeting in 6 July that had been called for 06-07-05.  The IT department didn't turn up but thought it strange that a meeting had been called for 5 July next year.  Our american friends thought it bad manners to call a meeting for 7 June and no one else turned up.

RE: Date formatting

And _I_ thought we had quit using 2 digits (YY) back in Y2K.

But it seems I'm wrong.  [Our latest database requires dates as DD-MON-YY actually described as DD-MON-RR]

Since I regularly communicate with people on both sides of the Atlantic - and am not always certain who will be receiving my messages, I've tried to make it a habit to use at least three letter months.  Doesn't matter which order then - you'll understand 6 Jul 2005 or Jul 6 2005 or even 2005 Jul 06!

At least for the next week or so, no one will be confused as the days are >12.

RE: Date formatting

@whyun

"What about Asia and Africa"

- Well in large parts of Asia and Africa it's not only the format that's different! Jewish date, Arab date, Asian lunar calendar date...

RE: Date formatting

epoisses,

My inquiry was intended to find out about the date formatting in Asia and Africa today.  Africa for the most part, use Gregorian calendar from European influences for centuries.  Most countries in Asia have dropped the lunar system and adopted the Gregorian/Solar calendar with the exception of certain holidays.

Although non-Europeans do not use the derivatives of the month names in the Gregorian Calendar, they use "numbered" months.  I was only curious as to whether they use the DD/MM/YYYY system of MM/DD/YYYY system.

Based on Artisi's post, Thailand uses the DD/MM.  Is this true in rest of Asia?  I just wanted to get a sense of what percentage of the world uses a particular convension over another.

In the US here, for the most part, we use MM/DD/YYYY.  I'm not saying its right or wrong.  Its just a convention people of the United States adopted.

RE: Date formatting

Geeze... all this over dates.

I find it funny that some posters have implied there was once an international standard that everyone understood, as if this is a new change.  You don't seriously think we just started messing with all this stuff do you?  

Thanks
SC

RE: Date formatting

In India it is DD/MM/YYYY or DD/MM/YY.

RE: Date formatting

I am from India and I frequently face an akward question from the Customs while exporting. It goes like this ,Customer in his Purchase Order states ship by 07/30/05,which is simply put as 30th July 2005,but in Indian notation the month and day are reversed,and I am asked to get the PO amended!! stating that there are 12 calendar months officially recognised. Who can fight the government!! I just chuckle and walk away.

RE: Date formatting

ISO (the International Organization for Standardization) standard ISO 8601, Data elements and interchange formats – Information interchange – Representation of dates and times establishes the international format for representation of dates as YYYY-MM-DD or as YYYYMMDD, i.e. 3 August 2005 is neither 08/03/05 (US) nor 03/08/05 (rest of the world) but either 2005-08-03 or 20050803.

It sure would make life easy.  But since the Yanks are still resisting the change to SI units, I'm not hopeful of them adopting a new date format!

http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/popstds/datesandtime.html

RE: Date formatting

It seems like that is exactly what happened MESC1.

RE: Date formatting

I doubt it, ajack1... When in history did everyone write the date the same?
I do not believe there has ever been an International Date Format... (with the exception of ISO, which is new, and only applicable to specific disiplines)

Thanks
SC

RE: Date formatting

Isn't it surprising how few countries actually use the ISO8601?

RE: Date formatting

I've got prints here from a large German company that have the date as "96-09-06"... That's it. Yet they complained when I sent some prints with my standard (since Y2K) "24JL2005" saying that's not how they write their dates. Oh well, if that's the only thing they have to say about the project, I'm cool.

David

RE: Date formatting

I usually use year-month-day when labeling a file.  I use mmdayyyyy when writing correspondence.  I don't generate prints anymore, but I know that the guys who do don't even put dates on the visible parts of them now, because the dates are stored as metadata in the electronic database (always go to the database for current info).

RE: Date formatting

The good old US Army taught me to write 5AUG05 on the daily report and I have been using that format ever since.  It is the least ambigous short format for dates.  Of course this was in the days before computers and autosorting.

Timelord

RE: Date formatting

Army ROTC taught me to use the military date format not quite 40 years ago and I've stuck with it ever since for its logic and unambiguity.  That the month pages/panels on all the calendars in the house (even the electronic ones) still have names rather than numbers and that in most conversation one makes reference to things like "next May" rather than "next month 5" means that any all-numerical date format loses something in the translation.

That the numbers for the day and the month in my own birthday differ by one might have something to do with this as well . . .

Norm

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