The Entitlement Generation
The Entitlement Generation
(OP)
I'm seeing this a lot in our engineering co-op students.
htt p://news.y ahoo.com/s /ap/the_en titlement_ generation
I'm trying to figure out when this generation started? I'm at the very tail end of GenX, but certainly don't feel entitled. Born '67.
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I'm trying to figure out when this generation started? I'm at the very tail end of GenX, but certainly don't feel entitled. Born '67.





RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
It may be time to look at balancing the legal responsibilities of employers to their shareholders (the excuse for everything) with some legal responsibility to employees.
Of course, I have no idea how this can be done but in specific situations there are some gross abuses that might be addressed.
For example, I worked for a company that was part of a group of companies. For many years the aerospace group was in dire trouble and every year our company employees would be told that no pay rises would be forthcoming/minimal or deffered. Progressively many employee benefits was lost through this and, despite the profitability of our company, "restructuring" regularly occurred i.e. redundancies.
Ultimately the aerospace company recovered and was promptly sold off for something like $60million which was disperesed among the shareholders (significant among them the CEO).
The employees of our company didn't even get a letter of acknowledgement.
But, the point is that it is often the younger employees who seem to have a healthier attitude as they proved more willing or able to draw a line and leave. Those who believed the guff or had loyalty to the company, or to their co-workers, were the ultimate losers.
Sure, the attitudes of the young can leave much to be desired but maybe they can teach us something as well.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
I felt like I could get a good job with a company that cared enough to train me and give me respect and a good wage.
I don't think it is actually that students think they deserve it. I just think that they feel they could get it and go for it.
I ended up taking a job that gave me lots of training in the field I wanted for a little bit lower of a wage then a oil patch job in cubicle with no future for a high wage. Now I make just as much as many of my friends in the oil patch. They just happen to grumble about their jobs a lot more.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Best Regards,
An apathetic slacker Gen Xer
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Companies are algorithms which exist to make profit for shareholders. If they have compassion or care about their employees, it's a freak accident which can be corrected by a nose-dive in stock value at some future date, the hiring of a new, evil human resources manager etc.
Being an employee is a bargain: you trade time, effort, creativity and intelligence for money. If the employee gives too little of the required quantities, they get canned. If the employer does not remain profitable despite the employee's best efforts, the employee gets canned. If the employer demands too much in return for the money, the employee moves on- or do they? Or do they foolishly remain behind, thinking that the company really does love them and exist merely to validate their pathetic human existence in some way? Perhaps the younger kids are just savvier to this reality than their parents were, since they watched their parents making bad bargains with their employers- giving too much of themselves for too little money and zero loyalty toward employees.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
When did a job become an entitlement? I worked my butt of in school, but also worked my butt off to get a job. I didn't expect it to be handed to me.
I think there was another thread here somewhere that discussed the lack of knowledge of the new engineering workforce (always going to the caclulator/computer for an answer) that could relate to this discussion.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
To replace the outgoing evil human resources manager?
I'm another one of the Gen X'rs and company loyalty is something which I hear about from my parents era. In these days of company pension scheme collapses, fat cat executives, corporate thieves like Ken Lay et al: why on earth would I want to pledge my allegiance to people so obviously bereft of moral values?
The younger generation like me - I think I'm still in it, just - don't remember the days where someone could work for their whole career for one employer and retire comfortably on the employer's pension scheme, except in stories from elderly friends and relatives. The young of today expect to have to provide for their own retirement, and that requires cold hard money and some savvy investment. If another employer offers a better deal, then who can blame them for taking it? The big tie to an employer in the UK used to be the pension, where years of accrued service were required to ensure a decent retirement. Those schemes are virtually all gone now, and with them the employers means of buying loyalty.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Employees work just hard enough so they won't get fired,
Employers pay just enough so the employees won't quit.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
I think you are talking about people that work in gas stations. If any engineer works like that I feel very sorry for them.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Employment is a contract: hours, creativity, intellect and effort in return for money and other consideration. It's not "good employee, bad corporation" or vice versa- it's "I agree to give you this quantity and quality of A in return for this quantity and quality of B". If you're stupid and give A away freely and don't expect more of B, don't expect me to share your mindset! And don't be surprised if your services are de-valued because they come at no real cost to the organization you work for.
I was lucky- I managed to find an employer who respects the contributions of their employees, realizes that we're their only real asset, and compensates us directly, monetarily, for our contribution toward the profitability of our organization. It's done fairly, in measure to the individual's real contribution rather than merely how many hours of O/T they've clocked- and it's significant- NEVER a token. And it cuts both ways: it's accepted in the light of a lower than average base salary, such that the pain of poor company performance is felt by the employees directly too. Then again, we're private so our shareholders are on-board with this system and understand its value- and it applies to all employees, not just the managers or professional staff. All employees also have some ownership position in the company, further aligning the goals of the organization with those of the employees and vice versa.
But there are thousands of engineers who work significant overtime freely because they derive so much pleasure and validation from their work that they literally expect nothing in return. These people are idiots and they're doing our profession a disservice. Worse still, there are managers who feel this way and who therefore COMPELL uncompensated overtime from their underlings. These persons are actually in violation of our provincial Code of Ethics and should be subject to disciplinary action in my opinion.
No profitable corporation is a worthy recipient of pro-bono engineering "volunteerism" of this sort! Engineers deserve compensation for their effort, no moreso nor any less so than any other employee. If you want validation from volunteerism because your life isn't full enough with family and other non-work pursuits, I can name a list of worthy charities including RedR and Engineers Without Borders who would be only too happy to accept your voluntary efforts for the benefit of those who really need them!
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Second of all, I worked with a company that I saw the difference in "entitlement" first hand. At that company, there were workers that were as far as the 4th generation to have worked there. There was on one occasion that I got to know the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation of one family as they each worked in my shops.
The 2nd generation fellow was a hard worker, even after 35+ years. He didn't take the easy jobs and chastised the younger crowd for not working hard. He had his opinions, but let others speak and seemed to listen and fully communicate with them.
The 3rd generation fellow was not a hard worker. He did his time and left each day. He wasn't willing to 'go the extra mile'. He actually told me the company 'owed him' because of his grandfather and father putting their 'lifeblood' into the company. He constantly verbally abused management, technical types (engineers), and college educated people. He stated his opinions loudly and would try to turn every conversation his way, stating 'if you aren't with me, you're against me'. Very poor worker, in my opinion.
The 4th generation fellow was much like his grandfather. Hard worker. Liked to talk to people and find out new ways to do things better. Told me on more than one occasion to 'not pay attention to the old man' and not take things he said personally. He tended to listen a lot more and do things that would surprise you. He knew he must work and think hard to get ahead and keep the company going. Very good worker.
Of course there are more characteristics I could list, but these are the tops. Sort of follows the topic. Has anybody experienced a similar type of stratification within a company?
~NiM
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Milton Waddams: [talking on the phone] And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire...
An apathetic slacker Gen Xer
RE: The Entitlement Generation
why should they not have it??
Capitalism and free markets are allways to be enforced
on the other guy.
I mean as soon as employers don't have a blocklong line
outside the fence waiting to work they think there is
a problem.
"If I am winning GOD bless capitalism"
"Otherwise lets pass some new laws"
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
"If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be 'meetings'."
And my favorite, one which agrees with EddyC and one which I try to apply despite the ever changing requirements "of the moment":
"You should not confuse your career with your life."
~NiM
RE: The Entitlement Generation
I know many people that work to afford there outside work hobbies. This is not a bad thing. It is only a really bad thing when your outside work hobby is grumbling about work. I know people that do this.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: The Entitlement Generation
But there again most of these guys have seen where working hard gets you. Lost pensions, fired at the flick of a switch and your assets repossessed to pay for old age. Not much to aspire for is there. I mean why on earth would they want to follow us. So who can blame them for having a F--- you attitude and no loyalty.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Small company, and due to this there was always a lot of work that 'had' to be completed, thus I would work a lot of O/T to finish it. At the time I didn't mind. I enjoyed the work and was young in my profession. I thought it was worth it, as investing now doing hard work would pay dividends in the long run. Years passed and nothing seemed to be changing, no pay rises, no bonuses and always being treated by the boss (along with all employees) as second class engineers. A sub-contractor said I was being ‘used’ by my employer, who was paying a relatively small salary, and not giving me anything else in return (training etc) Company ran into financial trouble and no-one was paid for a few months.
I then was forced into looking for a new job. Found one 2wks later and the Company is very different. No O/T work is expected and very rarely done, but when it is, it is time in lieu, and the salary is higher, treated better and offered training.
In summary, if you think no matter what your age, that you are being taken advantage of – GET OUT. There are far better companies out there.
I am in my thirties, and in hindsight, my old employer probably was taking advantage, but my inexperience let it happen. A high price for a lesson I will never forget.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
I got some wood he told me and made a hut - sold this hut and with the money bought some more wood, got busy making more huts and sold them aswell, again went out and bought more wood and made some more huts, looking out at the Bently in the car park I asked him if that was all there was to getting to his position - more or less he replied. Oh and he bought a lottery ticket one afternoon.....
Yep life has its turns and dives. I would trust any company I worked for and I would be more interested in looking after myself and my wife. That is what matters at the bottom dollar. Home life and happiness. I worked for a company a while back and then it sort of went pearshaped, was in a vehicle accident while working overseas on a contract, I was dismissed for misuse of company property. Yep from that moment on I decided that number one is me - companies are pretty ruthless when it comes down to it.
Went to court through it and got a settlement out of it but Id rather go back and be the person I was before it happened than go through what I went through.
The heading of this being entitlement - I believe that you are only entitled to what you are prepared to get up and fight for.
Rugged
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Oh terrific. I'd rather weed out the 50% who are worse than average at /engineering/, I'll happily sort the bosses out for those who won't stick up for themselves.
And if I ever get to be your boss (no thanks), you can be damn sure I'll be checking your ability, not your assertiveness.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
So Ziggi - in agreement with Greg - if I were your boss, your ability and passion better shine, because as for me, agressiveness and assertiveness don't come first with getting the task at hand completed.
Everyone else: does it seem to me only that Ziggi's post smacks true in the emotion of the title of this little discussion - 'the Entitlement Generation'??
~NiM
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Reduced National Security
2nd and 3rd World workers that produce more than they consume
National Debt that my children will pay
Under-funded retirement programs that my children will pay
Damage to the environment that my children will have to correct
And because the above consequences are non-sustainable, we may go to war to ensure that people will get what they think they are entitled to.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Kindly don't refer to your fellow engineers as "nerds". In addition, I get to meet all kinds of people who like to blow their own horns. I find this kind of thing offensive, as I come from a modest environment. 75% of the folks who like to blow their horns regularly really haven't done much in their lives. They're like an old car with a hole in the muffler (sounds fast, but isn't).
RE: The Entitlement Generation
You are such a blow hard and have no understanding about what is driving production from the US and why. The main reason is greed. Lower labor cost not lower ability or consumption. All of the technology which produces the products in the third world country came from developed countries. Someone in the developed countries saw the labor cost for production of a product and said I can make this cheaper in (name your country) than in (name your own country). I will build a plant and make it overseas and sell it for the same price giving me more money. It happened in Japan in the 80's and moved to Taiwan and Korea and now has moved to China and Mexico. In another 23-30 years it will end up in Africa or South America wherever the cheapest labor can be exploited.
How does where a product is produced or the use of energy impacting national security? National debt is driven by Congress and the President how much concern are they giving this issue? We received $600 per person refund and reduced taxes yet within 2 years we are experiencing a huge deficits. The social security money which should be set aside for future benefits is being used to reduce deficits. Put the blame squarely where it belongs on the Legilative and Executive branches of government.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Past administrations in the USA used to spend money they didn't have and then raise taxes afterward. The most recent administrations are giving money back and then cutting spending afterward. Both methodologies utilized the action-reaction method of achieving the goals of the particular administration in power. I won't bother to state which methodology I prefer, I merely offer this view as a means of clarification.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
However, I would tend to agree that some things we are not entitled to. I was raised without want, but taught to temper my needs. I was raised on a 'protestant ethic', where the belief of hard work would provide for a good life. I was raised with morals and ethics, where such would raise my standard of living and allow me to hold my head high. Thus, I am not entitled to beg, borrow, and steal in order to live. I have a fit body and a sharp mind, I am entitled to pursue my strengths and desires in order to maintain a comfortable way of life. I am not entitled to another man's profitability, though my efforts may have afforded him that privilege. I am entitled to pursue other opprotunities that may bring me to a higher social and/or spiritual order. But, I am not entitled to drag my fellow man with me if I should fall.
Sound a bit idealistic? Yes, but then again, I am the eternal optimist.
Do I feel bad if I make more money than my peer that lives 1000-miles away? 2000-miles? in a 3rd world country? Not at all. As Zapster aludes to, geographical, socio-economic, and industry type positioning are all factors. And I believe in the choices I have made as to where, when, and why I work.
Will there be consequences? Yes, of course. Man is not infallible. Man in not uncorruptable. Man is no mistake-proof. Each decision we make will affect an outcome sometime, someplace, and somehow. When one realizes the true principle of cause and effect, looking at each action and analyzing it, one can come to the conclusion of utter hopelessness (pessimism) or willingness to accept/affect change (optimism). Only one of these looks to a brighter future...guess which one.
And yes, we live in a time in this country where we have excessive lifestyles, in part driven by the attitudes: "keeping up with the Jones'" and "bigger is better". Big meals, big cars, big houses, and unfortunately for most, big debts. The need for excess does affect other things (as Zapster mentioned). It is the misguided need for excess that can cause many types of conflict such as wars for resources and socio-economical wars. The perception of entitlement drives this also.
So here's the 6-billion dollar (or person) question: How do we stop it? Be realistic, there is no easy choice or answer. We should strive to understand the world around us and live within it as we were meant to. Think this means harmony? Wrong...order cannot exist without chaos. But order can make sense of chaos and even begin to tame it. We need to affect change, be optistimic, and strive for the best solutions. And, we can teach our children to do not only the same, but become better at it.
I look forward to the coming storm in the world. I look forward to it as an opportunity. The belief in entitlement to resources and such is going to drive us to a dark period, I don't think anyone will deny that. However, if we start looking beyond the 'me' and to the 'we', with the willpower we possess as a species, anything is possible. The light at the end is dim, but I believe it to be there.
Idealistic? Maybe, but I'll take my chances. I'll take my hard work, my knowledge, my work ethic, and my optimism as powerful force to enable me to surge forward, leaving the pettiness of entitlement belief in the wake. And hopefully, I can instill those facets into those around me so that we might all forge on ahead.
My 2-cents..
~NiM
RE: The Entitlement Generation
What are you guys talking about?
Blame the government, the end is near, the revolution has started. blah, blah, blah.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
1. Why should Americans feel guilt for what America is?
Ignore things, accept things, or change them. Self-loathing about it does nothing.
2. Thinking that you are under-valued or under-entitled is nothing new.
To contrast the feeling of the topic: Those retired persons that use US Social Security checks for Casino money or traveling money feel just as entitled to that check as much as the poor single parent who gets the same check to buy groceries and gov't cheese. After all, the kids these days "haven't paid in for 30 years" or "lived through the Cold War" or a multitude of other rationale.
3. Young people, especially, get a slanted perception of true self-worth from an early age. We heard all kinds of B.S. growing up about how "special" or "unique" we are, and how "expressing or individuality" is so important for us.
What an outright lie that is. The end result of that type of thinking is an anti-establishment, anti-nationalist, morally discrete, and ultimately selfish society.
I agree with NicketMet almost entirely. It's "Humanism", or "the belief that humanity always will seek rightness and equilibrium" is a folly that too many of us buy into and allow to shape our view of things.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
1. These are my opinions, so feel free to disagree but do not attack. I like a debate, I'm not interested in pettiness.
2. I am in my "twentysomething's"
3. Entitlement is not a priviledge it is as the word suggest a legal term for the rights to benefits etc etc
4.
Therefore having defined the basis of the argument now let us examine the context and implications.
I find the notion that generation labelling us twentysomething populous as slack/lazy etc Gen Xers really rather amusing as it goes to show that the apple truelly does not fall far from the tree, I quote (from Univeristy of Washington Business School)
Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth? Let's come back to that one.
Now to give some insight into my background. I am a young engineer by standards. I work for a great company that values its employees because the management level has the foresight to see that a companys success and future is based on its workforce. Do I have a big salary, probably is above average, I can't complain.
Do we Gen Xrs want it all? Yes, why not try!! Am I slack, no, I work 50+ hour weeks for a 40hr week salary without compensation, am I an idiot for doing this, no I get payed well because of this. Am I entitled to want the high income and benefits, Yes, do we deserve it?? That is up to your employer and yourself.
People complain about how we want it all now and haven't yet earnt it. Where do you think the young learn this trait??
The world has become more commercialised and less accomodating. Low socioeconomic levels struggle and get abused by coporation, more meat for the sausage machine. Parent's struggle and sacrifice to raise the children on the pretext of giving them a better future, and now that we stand up and ask for a better future, we are labelled,
Do no confuse committment with loyalty. I am committed to my company, they look after me so I look after them, this is the new order of loyalty, bred by the older generation into the present economic system.
Do not take this to mean that I support the slack and inept, this is not the case, I take pride in my work ethic and committment and in my ability.
I have racked up debt in my own name to get my education, not my parent's, they have done more than enough for me to take this on, I have worked hard and taken no holidays, have worked overtime... Do I epxect high salaries and flexibility for my life outside of work, Yes. I have worked for it, it is an entitlement not a priviledge, if my seniors can not get a salary like mine then look to yourself and what you may be lacking, not to me.
Back to the comment of "Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth?", the answer is probably YES. I am only human after all. Will I remember to have the foresight to ask what it is I may be resentful of, I sincerely hope so.
Our generations are the same, we think the same way and want the same. The only difference is that we are not being governed by social stigma's or the shackles that bind older employees to scared or unable to increase there earning potential, and that we no longer let corporations use and abuse.
The world isn't nice, corporations generally don't give a hoot about your needs or your family's needs. It's up to the individual to get the most he can from his employer, I reckon go for it, there is no harm in trying.
Your Sincerely,
Generation X
....now, how to remove one's tongue from one's cheek.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Getting paid what your worth.
Doing an honest days work.
Loyalty to employer or employee.
The "WORTH" of your profession.
These quaint ideas should be forgotten in this age where
the only value is "no value" or unbridled capitalism.
We are entering an economic era where we are encouraged
to believe in nothing but the free market solution to
everything. Every thing has its price and can be purchased.
I say Engineers should fully get on board and go about
milking their employers mercilessly when economic conditions
permit and then flipping burgers when the employers have
their turn.
Maybe we should save all that money we make in the boom
to sustain us through the lull and give us more pricing
power with employers.
Its time for engineers to get their self taught
Minor degree in Economics. And use this knowledge and
leverage greed to extract all that can be had from
Employers when you can.
It is not the way I prefer to see the world turn.
Ask yourself: Is complete unbridled capitalism the
best answear to all problems. Or at a certain degree
of usage does it begin to destroy cooperation among
fellow men and on average reduce societies living standards?
RE: The Entitlement Generation
RE: The Entitlement Generation
Proper compensation means a level of pay which is commensurate with the demands of the job in all respects: educational requirements, personal responsibility and liability, compensation for extra effort, recognition of creativity, innovation and extra effort, and the contribution of the work toward the company's bottom line.
If you want to donate your services, there are numerous worthy volunteer agencies out there. Don't donate your time to profitable corporations people- you're just ripping off your fellow engineers.
As far as dedication to an employer is concerned, what goes around comes around. Treat me with respect and I'll give you respect. Keep me on when things are slow, invest in my continuous learning and offer me opportunities for growth and advancement ALONG WITH a fair compensation scheme which respects my contribution to the company and I'll give you my very best effort. Treat me as a commodity and lay me off when the economy takes a downturn and I'll leave the minute someone else gives me a better offer.
RE: The Entitlement Generation
I am not sure i agree with you. I think it does
mean mercilessly milking your supplier,customers,
employees.
If as an agent of a company are you making deals with
others that are not the most optimal financially with
respect to the companies needs are you not giving away
the companies money??
I think the long term concern for a supplier is consistant
with the view of milking the supplier. The art of it is
to extract as much value without killing them if you do
not have any other suppliers that can fill in.
Likewise with employees. Pay them only enough to get them
to come to work regularly.
If you read the last line in my post I also do not think
this is a sustainable solution but so much is being made
of this practice it may be a while before a wiser version
of greed is commonplace.
A wise man I knew once said.
"Allways let the other guy make some money in a deal"
Troble is today the only value many can add is through
an extractive process.
not marx
RE: The Entitlement Generation
others that are not the most optimal financially with
respect to the companies needs are you not giving away
the companies money??" - Certainly. But one should always make a deal with the next deal in mind.
I think your theory is valid for a situation in which a supplier or an employer has a monopoly position. But if the customer or the employee has a choice, trying to milk them will put you out of business real fast.
My bank is trying to milk me. Unfortunately, all French banks follow your strategy. Everybody knows it. Everybody hates them. I'm staying with them for the time being, grudgingly. I make as little use of their (paid) services as possible. What will happen is predictable: a customer-friendly and cost-effective bank (foreign I suppose) will set foot here in the very near future and will gain millions of customers from day 1 including me.