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The Entitlement Generation
18

The Entitlement Generation

RE: The Entitlement Generation

5
The old always label the young as lazy.  This is supposed to be news?

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Some important comments in that article though; todays employers have no sense of responsibility to employees and yet still expect/exploit employee loyalty to the company/

It may be time to look at balancing the legal responsibilities of employers to their shareholders (the excuse for everything) with some legal responsibility to employees.

Of course, I have no idea how this can be done but in specific situations there are some gross abuses that might be addressed.

For example, I worked for a company that was part of a group of companies. For many years the aerospace group was in dire trouble and every year our company employees would be told that no pay rises would be forthcoming/minimal or deffered. Progressively many employee benefits was lost through this and, despite the profitability of our company, "restructuring" regularly occurred i.e. redundancies.

Ultimately the aerospace company recovered and was promptly sold off for something like $60million which was disperesed among the shareholders (significant among them the CEO).

The employees of our company didn't even get a letter of acknowledgement.

But, the point is that it is often the younger employees who seem to have a healthier attitude as they proved more willing or able to draw a line and leave. Those who believed the guff or had loyalty to the company, or to their co-workers, were the ultimate losers.

Sure, the attitudes of the young can leave much to be desired but maybe they can teach us something as well.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: The Entitlement Generation

4
The history of the world is filled with stories of people (mostly at the top) who thought that the world owned them something and that they would ride roughshod over anyone who got in the way. Its hardly a new theme.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

3
The entitlement generation started at the end of WWII with the great society.  The worst offenders are the SS (social security) crowd who took there SS withholdings and spent it on entitlement programs (The Great Society).  Now they expect the youngster of society to pick up their living expenses, medical expenses, etc.  without any needs based criteria.  This same crowd is the richest segment of the United States’ population.  Not sure how things are in other countries when it comes to attitudes of the youth; but in the United States, the kids are quick to learn from the examples of their elders.  

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I think the article is fairly accurate.  Most engineers worked very hard for their degree and feel they deserve a job.  They don't want to work in a cubicle and work on boring stuff and be given zero training.

I felt like I could get a good job with a company that cared enough to train me and give me respect and a good wage.

I don't think it is actually that students think they deserve it.  I just think that they feel they could get it and go for it.

I ended up taking a job that gave me lots of training in the field I wanted for a little bit lower of a wage then a oil patch job in cubicle with no future for a high wage.  Now I make just as much as many of my friends in the oil patch.  They just happen to grumble about their jobs a lot more.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

In my opinion it's todays corporate CEO that has created the lack of worker loyalty by bowing to the stockholders and not crafting employee retention plans (all to raise the stock price 1/8 of a cent).  Engineers are now a commodity bought and sold to the lowest or highest bidder.  I see it eaiser for a company to litigate transfered technology (whatever form it takes) from loss of employees to a competiting corporation.  The movie Office Space rings so true in todays corporate America


Best Regards,


An apathetic slacker Gen Xer


RE: The Entitlement Generation

Some of this is simply the younger generation waking up and smelling the cat food.  Some of us seasoned pro's can't smell it because our faces are in it day in and day out.  

Companies are algorithms which exist to make profit for shareholders.  If they have compassion or care about their employees, it's a freak accident which can be corrected by a nose-dive in stock value at some future date, the hiring of a new, evil human resources manager etc.

Being an employee is a bargain:  you trade time, effort, creativity and intelligence for money.  If the employee gives too little of the required quantities, they get canned.  If the employer does not remain profitable despite the employee's best efforts, the employee gets canned.  If the employer demands too much in return for the money, the employee moves on- or do they?  Or do they foolishly remain behind, thinking that the company really does love them and exist merely to validate their pathetic human existence in some way?  Perhaps the younger kids are just savvier to this reality than their parents were, since they watched their parents making bad bargains with their employers- giving too much of themselves for too little money and zero loyalty toward employees.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

(OP)
Okay...Okay.... enough of the bad corporation, good employee discussion.

When did a job become an entitlement?  I worked my butt of in school, but also worked my butt off to get a job.  I didn't expect it to be handed to me.

I think there was another thread here somewhere that discussed the lack of knowledge of the new engineering workforce (always going to the caclulator/computer for an answer) that could relate to this discussion.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Quote:

...the hiring of a new, evil human resources manager...

To replace the outgoing evil human resources manager?

I'm another one of the Gen X'rs and company loyalty is something which I hear about from my parents era. In these days of company pension scheme collapses, fat cat executives, corporate thieves like Ken Lay et al: why on earth would I want to pledge my allegiance to people so obviously bereft of moral values?

The younger generation like me - I think I'm still in it, just - don't remember the days where someone could work for their whole career for one employer and retire comfortably on the employer's pension scheme, except in stories from elderly friends and relatives. The young of today expect to have to provide for their own retirement, and that requires cold hard money and some savvy investment. If another employer offers a better deal, then who can blame them for taking it? The big tie to an employer in the UK used to be the pension, where years of accrued service were required to ensure a decent retirement. Those schemes are virtually all gone now, and with them the employers means of buying loyalty.

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: The Entitlement Generation


Employees work just hard enough so they won't get fired,
Employers pay just enough so the employees won't quit.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

amorrison4:

I think you are talking about people that work in gas stations.  If any engineer works like that I feel very sorry for them.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Actually QCE, many engineers I know work 60+ hours when they're paid to work 40, for no extra compensation or time in lieu, and then expect underlings to do the same out of some warped and misguided notion of "professionalism".  For the first five years of my career, "professionalism" wasn't an ideal I aspired to, it was a whip that was used to lash my backside to compell uncompensated overtime from me.  If recent grads are rejecting this mindset, good on 'em.

Employment is a contract:  hours, creativity, intellect and effort in return for money and other consideration.  It's not "good employee, bad corporation" or vice versa- it's "I agree to give you this quantity and quality of A in return for this quantity and quality of B".  If you're stupid and give A away freely and don't expect more of B, don't expect me to share your mindset!  And don't be surprised if your services are de-valued because they come at no real cost to the organization you work for.

I was lucky- I managed to find an employer who respects the contributions of their employees, realizes that we're their only real asset, and compensates us directly, monetarily, for our contribution toward the profitability of our organization.  It's done fairly, in measure to the individual's real contribution rather than merely how many hours of O/T they've clocked- and it's significant- NEVER a token.  And it cuts both ways:  it's accepted in the light of a lower than average base salary, such that the pain of poor company performance is felt by the employees directly too.  Then again, we're private so our shareholders are on-board with this system and understand its value- and it applies to all employees, not just the managers or professional staff.  All employees also have some ownership position in the company, further aligning the goals of the organization with those of the employees and vice versa.

But there are thousands of engineers who work significant overtime freely because they derive so much pleasure and validation from their work that they literally expect nothing in return.  These people are idiots and they're doing our profession a disservice.  Worse still, there are managers who feel this way and who therefore COMPELL uncompensated overtime from their underlings.  These persons are actually in violation of our provincial Code of Ethics and should be subject to disciplinary action in my opinion.  

No profitable corporation is a worthy recipient of pro-bono engineering "volunteerism" of this sort!  Engineers deserve compensation for their effort, no moreso nor any less so than any other employee.  If you want validation from volunteerism because your life isn't full enough with family and other non-work pursuits, I can name a list of worthy charities including RedR and Engineers Without Borders who would be only too happy to accept your voluntary efforts for the benefit of those who really need them!

RE: The Entitlement Generation

There's plenty of company owners and managers who don't like to see others have happy lives. They are part of the "misery-loves-company" group in our society. My current employer would lay people off on a Friday at 2:30 PM. He would basically say: "No need for you to come in any more". How can anyone possibly have a sense of loyalty to an organization like this? And sad to say, almost every company that I worked with would act in some way like this at some time. Professionalism? Its in the hands of a small group of idealistic employees who want to see the world become a better place. Its certainly not of the hands of most company leaders.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

2
First of all ... good thread.

Second of all, I worked with a company that I saw the difference in "entitlement" first hand.  At that company, there were workers that were as far as the 4th generation to have worked there.  There was on one occasion that I got to know the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation of one family as they each worked in my shops.

The 2nd generation fellow was a hard worker, even after 35+ years.  He didn't take the easy jobs and chastised the younger crowd for not working hard.  He had his opinions, but let others speak and seemed to listen and fully communicate with them.

The 3rd generation fellow was not a hard worker.  He did his time and left each day.  He wasn't willing to 'go the extra mile'.  He actually told me the company 'owed him' because of his grandfather and father putting their 'lifeblood' into the company.  He constantly verbally abused management, technical types (engineers), and college educated people.  He stated his opinions loudly and would try to turn every conversation his way, stating 'if you aren't with me, you're against me'.  Very poor worker, in my opinion.

The 4th generation fellow was much like his grandfather.  Hard worker.  Liked to talk to people and find out new ways to do things better.  Told me on more than one occasion to 'not pay attention to the old man' and not take things he said personally.  He tended to listen a lot more and do things that would surprise you.  He knew he must work and think hard to get ahead and keep the company going.  Very good worker.  

Of course there are more characteristics I could list, but these are the tops.  Sort of follows the topic.  Has anybody experienced a similar type of stratification within a company?

~NiM

RE: The Entitlement Generation

A for you EddyC.  I've worked for companies that owners/management desperately needed some form of therapy or medication.


Milton Waddams: [talking on the phone] And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire...


An apathetic slacker Gen Xer

RE: The Entitlement Generation

If employees can afford some latitude with the boss
why should they not have it??

Capitalism and free markets are allways to be enforced
on the other guy.
I mean as soon as employers don't have a blocklong line
outside the fence waiting to work they think there is
a problem.

"If I am winning GOD bless capitalism"
"Otherwise lets pass some new laws"

RE: The Entitlement Generation

When I am nearing the end of my stay on planet earth, I'm going to feel much better when I think about the wild parties that I attended, the fun people that I met, the ones that I loved, the cars I owned, the vintage aircraft that I flew on and a whole bunch of other wonderful things. I am not going to ponder about whether I was a hard worker or whether my employer liked me. I am not addicted to my job, it serves to pay my bills and lets me do the things in my free time that I enjoy. I have met plenty of folks that have so much money that they never have to work. I don't think any less of them. Those that work hard usually do because they have to. They then come up with the logic that hard work makes you a better person, in order to give some meaning to their difficult life situation.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Humor from Dave Berry:

"If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be 'meetings'."

And my favorite, one which agrees with EddyC and one which I try to apply despite the ever changing requirements "of the moment":

"You should not confuse your career with your life."

~NiM

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I guess I'm lucky enough to have a job that I consider a big part of my life.  I enjoy my job.  I don't work to live outside of work only.  My jobs and outside work activities are both my joys.  I'm lucky I work for a company that doesn't take advantage of that.

I know many people that work to afford there outside work hobbies.  This is not a bad thing.  It is only a really bad thing when your outside work hobby is grumbling about work.  I know people that do this.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I get the idea that controlnovice is just jealous of the younger generation. He reminds me of a guy who works here. Every time someone younger than him has to help him with somethings he goes off on this rant about how he has 25 !@#$%^&* years of experience. I'm always thinking to myself when he goes off on his rants: "why don't you go out and find a job that will pay you for your skills what you make here." Not to my surprise, nobody seems to agree with him on what his skills are worth(he has been on several job interviews with no success).

RE: The Entitlement Generation

bigTomHanks - do as a friend of mine did to a foundation contractor when he said he had "25 years" of experience, etc.  My friend's reply:  "So, I guess you've been doing it wrong for 25 years!  Sad."

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Quoting my first ever personnel manger (HR manager for our American speakers):  "Don't expect it to be fun every day.  If it was we'd be selling f***ing tickets, not paying you!".  Harsh maybe, but worth thinking about before moaing about yet another impossible deadline for yet another annoying customer.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I think thread731-128171 amply demonstrates that it is not a generational thing, since the main protagonist seems to think 17 years of engineering experience (oh and a prestigous university, let's not forget) makes him an authority.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

It's gone.  Is it worth sharing the highlights?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I used to think that young people didn't want to work for a living and wanted respect before they had earned it.  

But there again most of these guys have seen where working hard gets you. Lost pensions, fired at the flick of a switch and your assets repossessed to pay for old age.  Not much to aspire for is there. I mean why on earth would they want to follow us.  So who can blame them for having a F--- you attitude and no loyalty.

  

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I worked for my first engineering position after graduating, loved the job and travelled to many different countries.  
Small company, and due to this there was always a lot of work that 'had' to be completed, thus I would work a lot of O/T to finish it.  At the time I didn't mind.  I enjoyed the work and was young in my profession.  I thought it was worth it, as investing now doing hard work would pay dividends in the long run.  Years passed and nothing seemed to be changing, no pay rises, no bonuses and always being treated by the boss (along with all employees) as second class engineers.  A sub-contractor  said I was being ‘used’ by my employer, who was paying a relatively small salary, and not giving me anything else in return (training etc) Company ran into financial trouble and no-one was paid for a few months.  

I then was forced into looking for a new job.  Found one 2wks later and the Company is very different.  No O/T work is expected and very rarely done, but when it is, it is time in lieu, and the salary is higher, treated better and offered training.

In summary, if you think no matter what your age, that you are being taken advantage of – GET OUT.  There are far better companies out there.  

I am in my thirties, and in hindsight, my old employer probably was taking advantage, but my inexperience let it happen.  A high price for a lesson I will never forget.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Met a guy I knew from school - seemed to be very well off could tell but the cut of the cloth and the watch he was wearing - bespoke, yeah this guy had arrived so i asked him how he managed it as when I remember he left school with nothing and he was bone lazy aswell....

I got some wood he told me and made a hut - sold this hut and with the money bought some more wood, got busy making more huts and sold them aswell, again went out and bought more wood and made some more huts, looking out at the Bently in the car park I asked him if that was all there was to getting to his position - more or less he replied. Oh and he bought a lottery ticket one afternoon.....


Yep life has its turns and dives. I would trust any company I worked for and I would be more interested in looking after myself and my wife. That is what matters at the bottom dollar. Home life and happiness. I worked for a company a while back and then it sort of went pearshaped, was in a vehicle accident while working overseas on a contract, I was dismissed for misuse of company property. Yep from that moment on I decided that number one is me - companies are pretty ruthless when it comes down to it.

Went to court through it and got a settlement out of it but Id rather go back and be the person I was before it happened than go through what I went through.

The heading of this being entitlement - I believe that you are only entitled to what you are prepared to get up and fight for.

Rugged

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I have already spoken of this in the "Opinion of Engineers" thread. But basically I agree with the previous post. I feel that we as engineers need to fight for ourselves and weed out the guys who are too weak to argue with their bosses. We have very intelligent people in our profession but unfortunately many of the smartest ones grew up as nerds and never learnt the necessary social skills to fight and argue for their share of the pie. I'm not one of those really smart ones, however I do argue and fight for my share and I feel that the entire profession is due more than it is being given right now. Doctors and lawyers make way more than we do, but if a lawyer or doctor screw up, one person's life is altered, if we screw up hundreds or thousands of lives could potentially be affected. And even if the blame is spread across a full engineering department of 10 people thats still about 10-1000 lives being affected by every engineer on every project.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

"I feel that we as engineers need to fight for ourselves and weed out the guys who are too weak to argue with their bosses. "

Oh terrific. I'd rather weed out the 50% who are worse than average at /engineering/, I'll happily sort the bosses out for those who won't stick up for themselves.

And if I ever get to be your boss (no thanks), you can be damn sure I'll be checking your ability, not your assertiveness.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I agree whole-heartedly with you Greg.  We should remove those "so-called" engineers from the workforce that cannot - or in some cases will not - do their profession.  I have never once complained about a fellow engineer's passion for doing their work right, even if they are a bit timid.  And I have removed engineers and technicians from areas they are totally incompetent in, no matter their verbal ability or backbone.

So Ziggi - in agreement with Greg - if I were your boss, your ability and passion better shine, because as for me, agressiveness and assertiveness don't come first with getting the task at hand completed.

Everyone else:  does it seem to me only that Ziggi's post smacks true in the emotion of the title of this little discussion - 'the Entitlement Generation'??

~NiM

RE: The Entitlement Generation

I do not believe that people are entitled to anything.  In contrast to ziggi’s opinion I think that engineers are overpaid in my geographical location.  In fact most professions in my area are grossly overvalued.  I live in the USA and not a week goes by that I look at the things we have and the opportunity that is available to us and I admit to myself that there is a significant imbalance between what we produce and what we consume.  I understand that our lifestyle comes at a price and that we are not producing our fair share.  The consequences of our actions are:   

Reduced National Security
2nd and 3rd World workers that produce more than they consume
National Debt that my children will pay
Under-funded retirement programs that my children will pay
Damage to the environment that my children will have to correct

And because the above consequences are non-sustainable, we may go to war to ensure that people will get what they think they are entitled to.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

ziggi,

Kindly don't refer to your fellow engineers as "nerds". In addition, I get to meet all kinds of people who like to blow their own horns. I find this kind of thing offensive, as I come from a modest environment. 75% of the folks who like to blow their horns regularly really haven't done much in their lives. They're like an old car with a hole in the muffler (sounds fast, but isn't).

RE: The Entitlement Generation

Zapster
You are such a blow hard and have no understanding about what is driving production from the US and why. The main reason is greed. Lower labor cost not lower ability or consumption. All of the technology which produces the products in the third world country came from developed countries. Someone in the developed countries saw the labor cost for production of a product and said I can make this cheaper in (name your country) than in (name your own country). I will build a plant and make it overseas and sell it for the same price giving me more money. It happened in Japan in the 80's and moved to Taiwan and Korea and now has moved to China and Mexico. In another 23-30 years it will end up in Africa or South America wherever the cheapest labor can be exploited.

How does where a product is produced or the use of energy impacting national security? National debt is driven by Congress and the President how much concern are they giving this issue? We received $600 per person refund and reduced taxes yet within 2 years we are experiencing a huge deficits. The social security money which should be set aside for future benefits is being used to reduce deficits. Put the blame squarely where it belongs on the Legilative and Executive branches of government.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

BillPSU,

Past administrations in the USA used to spend money they didn't have and then raise taxes afterward. The most recent administrations are giving money back and then cutting spending afterward. Both methodologies utilized the action-reaction method of achieving the goals of the particular administration in power. I won't bother to state which methodology I prefer, I merely offer this view as a means of clarification.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

There are some things that a civilized being should be entitled to:  life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  These, as defined by our forefathers are considered to be "certain unalienable rights".  (It is in the Declaration of Independance, look it up.)

However, I would tend to agree that some things we are not entitled to.  I was raised without want, but taught to temper my needs.  I was raised on a 'protestant ethic', where the belief of hard work would provide for a good life.  I was raised with morals and ethics, where such would raise my standard of living and allow me to hold my head high.  Thus, I am not entitled to beg, borrow, and steal in order to live.  I have a fit body and a sharp mind, I am entitled to pursue my strengths and desires in order to maintain a comfortable way of life.  I am not entitled to another man's profitability, though my efforts may have afforded him that privilege.  I am entitled to pursue other opprotunities that may bring me to a higher social and/or spiritual order.  But, I am not entitled to drag my fellow man with me if I should fall.

Sound a bit idealistic?  Yes, but then again, I am the eternal optimist.

Do I feel bad if I make more money than my peer that lives 1000-miles away?  2000-miles?  in a 3rd world country?  Not at all.  As Zapster aludes to, geographical, socio-economic, and industry type positioning are all factors.  And I believe in the choices I have made as to where, when, and why I work.

Will there be consequences?  Yes, of course.  Man is not infallible.  Man in not uncorruptable.  Man is no mistake-proof.  Each decision we make will affect an outcome sometime, someplace, and somehow.  When one realizes the true principle of cause and effect, looking at each action and analyzing it, one can come to the conclusion of utter hopelessness (pessimism) or willingness to accept/affect change (optimism).  Only one of these looks to a brighter future...guess which one.

And yes, we live in a time in this country where we have excessive lifestyles, in part driven by the attitudes:  "keeping up with the Jones'" and "bigger is better".  Big meals, big cars, big houses, and unfortunately for most, big debts.  The need for excess does affect other things (as Zapster mentioned).  It is the misguided need for excess that can cause many types of conflict such as wars for resources and socio-economical wars.  The perception of entitlement drives this also.

So here's the 6-billion dollar (or person) question:  How do we stop it?  Be realistic, there is no easy choice or answer.  We should strive to understand the world around us and live within it as we were meant to.  Think this means harmony?  Wrong...order cannot exist without chaos.  But order can make sense of chaos and even begin to tame it.  We need to affect change, be optistimic, and strive for the best solutions.  And, we can teach our children to do not only the same, but become better at it.

I look forward to the coming storm in the world.  I look forward to it as an opportunity.  The belief in entitlement to resources and such is going to drive us to a dark period, I don't think anyone will deny that.  However, if we start looking beyond the 'me' and to the 'we', with the willpower we possess as a species, anything is possible.  The light at the end is dim, but I believe it to be there.

Idealistic?  Maybe, but I'll take my chances.  I'll take my hard work, my knowledge, my work ethic, and my optimism as powerful force to enable me to surge forward, leaving the pettiness of entitlement belief in the wake.  And hopefully, I can instill those facets into those around me so that we might all forge on ahead.

My 2-cents..

~NiM










RE: The Entitlement Generation

Get out of the way here come the crazies with there blurry eyes and sandwich boards.

What are you guys talking about?

Blame the government, the end is near, the revolution has started.  blah, blah, blah.

RE: The Entitlement Generation



1. Why should Americans feel guilt for what America is?
Ignore things, accept things, or change them.  Self-loathing about it does nothing.

2. Thinking that you are under-valued or under-entitled is nothing new.  

To contrast the feeling of the topic: Those retired persons that use US Social Security checks for Casino money or traveling money feel just as entitled to that check as much as the poor single parent who gets the same check to buy groceries and gov't cheese.  After all, the kids these days "haven't paid in for 30 years" or "lived through the Cold War" or a multitude of other rationale.

3. Young people, especially, get a slanted perception of true self-worth from an early age.  We heard all kinds of B.S. growing up about how "special" or "unique" we are, and how "expressing or individuality" is so important for us.

What an outright lie that is.  The end result of that type of thinking is an anti-establishment, anti-nationalist, morally discrete, and ultimately selfish society.


I agree with NicketMet almost entirely.  It's "Humanism", or "the belief that humanity always will seek rightness and equilibrium" is a folly that too many of us buy into and allow to shape our view of things.


RE: The Entitlement Generation

Okay, my basis:

1.  These are my opinions, so feel free to disagree but do not attack.  I like a debate, I'm not interested in pettiness.

2.  I am in my "twentysomething's"

3.  Entitlement is not a priviledge it is as the word suggest a legal term for the rights to benefits etc etc

4.  

Quote:

Generation X is a term used in demographics, the social sciences, and more broadly in popular culture. It is mostly related to the Western culture and demography and generally refers to persons born in the 1960s and 1970s, although the exact dates of birth defining this age demographic are highly debated. Born after baby boomers, it has also been described as a generation consisting of those people whose "teen years touched the 1980s", though many people that are considered part of the generation had their teenage years during the 1990s.

The term is popularly associated with the people born between 1961 and 1981. Another common description of Generation X includes within it those people who grew up in a period of transition (1945–1990) beginning with the end of World War II and the decline of colonial imperialism and ending with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. Thus, the transition between colonialism and globalization is thought to separate the Baby Boomers from the Baby Busters, a sub-generation of Generation X made up of the earliest born members. There are some older Generation Xers who frown upon the classification of those born in 1980 or 1981 as being part of Generation X; these individuals often prefer to classify Generation X as those born between 1964 and 1979.

Therefore having defined the basis of the argument now let us examine the context and implications.

I find the notion that generation labelling us twentysomething populous as slack/lazy etc Gen Xers really rather amusing as it goes to show that the apple truelly does not fall far from the tree, I quote (from Univeristy of Washington Business School)

Quote:

....Being labeled is, perhaps, a rite of passage for every crop of twentysomethings. In their day, baby boomers were rabble-rousing hippies, and Gen Xers were apathetic slackers.

Now, deserved or not, this latest generation is being pegged, too -- as one with shockingly high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company.

Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth?  Let's come back to that one.

Now to give some insight into my background.  I am a young engineer by standards.  I work for a great company that values its employees because the management level has the foresight to see that a companys success and future is based on its workforce.  Do I have a big salary, probably is above average, I can't complain.

Do we Gen Xrs want it all? Yes, why not try!!  Am I slack, no, I work 50+ hour weeks for a 40hr week salary without compensation, am I an idiot for doing this, no I get payed well because of this.  Am I entitled to want the high income and benefits, Yes, do we deserve it??  That is up to your employer and yourself.

People complain about how we want it all now and haven't yet earnt it.  Where do you think the young learn this trait??

The world has become more commercialised and less accomodating.  Low socioeconomic levels struggle and get abused by coporation, more meat for the sausage machine. Parent's struggle and sacrifice to raise the children on the pretext of giving them a better future, and now that we stand up and ask for a better future, we are labelled,

Quote:

"high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company."

Do no confuse committment with loyalty.  I am committed to my company, they look after me so I look after them, this is the new order of loyalty, bred by the older generation into the present economic system.

Do not take this to mean that I support the slack and inept, this is not the case, I take pride in my work ethic and committment and in my ability.

I have racked up debt in my own name to get my education, not my parent's, they have done more than enough for me to take this on, I have worked hard and taken no holidays, have worked overtime... Do I epxect high salaries and flexibility for my life outside of work, Yes.  I have worked for it, it is an entitlement not a priviledge, if my seniors can not get a salary like mine then look to yourself and what you may be lacking, not to me.

Back to the comment of "Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth?", the answer is probably YES.  I am only human after all.  Will I remember to have the foresight to ask what it is I may be resentful of, I sincerely hope so.  

Our generations are the same, we think the same way and want the same.  The only difference is that we are not being governed by social stigma's or the shackles that bind older employees to scared or unable to increase there earning potential, and that we no longer let corporations use and abuse.

The world isn't nice, corporations generally don't give a hoot about your needs or your family's needs.  It's up to the individual to get the most he can from his employer, I reckon go for it, there is no harm in trying.

Your Sincerely,

Generation X

....now, how to remove one's tongue from one's cheek.

RE: The Entitlement Generation


Getting paid what your worth.
Doing an honest days work.
Loyalty to employer or employee.
The "WORTH" of your profession.

These quaint ideas should be forgotten in this age where
the only value is "no value" or unbridled capitalism.
We are entering an economic era where we are encouraged
to believe in nothing but the free market solution to
everything. Every thing has its price and can be purchased.
I say Engineers should fully get on board and go about
milking their employers mercilessly when economic conditions
permit and then flipping burgers when the employers have
their turn.
Maybe we should save all that money we make in the boom
to sustain us through the lull and give us more pricing
power with employers.
Its time for engineers to get their self taught
Minor degree in Economics. And use this knowledge and
leverage greed to extract all that can be had from
Employers when you can.
It is not the way I prefer to see the world turn.

Ask yourself:  Is complete unbridled capitalism the
best answear to all problems. Or at a certain degree
of usage does it begin to destroy cooperation among
fellow men and on average reduce societies living standards?

RE: The Entitlement Generation

You talk like capitalism has just been invented today. It hasn't, it's been around for years. And it does not mean mercilessly milking your employer, customer, supplier or whatever - experience shows that that is not a viable long-term strategy. People will not do any business with or employ anybody who milks them. Cynism will get you nowhere. "Tit for tat" is more helpful.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

All engineers need to demand proper compensation for their efforts.  If engineers are willing to work for free it's no longer a profession.

Proper compensation means a level of pay which is commensurate with the demands of the job in all respects:  educational requirements, personal responsibility and liability, compensation for extra effort, recognition of creativity, innovation and extra effort, and the contribution of the work toward the company's bottom line.

If you want to donate your services, there are numerous worthy volunteer agencies out there.  Don't donate your time to profitable corporations people- you're just ripping off your fellow engineers.

As far as dedication to an employer is concerned, what goes around comes around.  Treat me with respect and I'll give you respect.  Keep me on when things are slow, invest in my continuous learning and offer me opportunities for growth and advancement ALONG WITH a fair compensation scheme which respects my contribution to the company and I'll give you my very best effort.  Treat me as a commodity and lay me off when the economy takes a downturn and I'll leave the minute someone else gives me a better offer.

RE: The Entitlement Generation

epoisses
I am not sure i agree with you. I think it does
mean mercilessly milking your supplier,customers,
employees.
If as an agent of a company are you making deals with
others that are not the most optimal financially with
respect to the companies needs are you not giving away
the companies money??

I think the long term concern for a supplier is consistant
with the view of milking the supplier. The art of it is
to extract as much value without killing them if you do
not have any other suppliers that can fill in.

Likewise with employees. Pay them only enough to get them
to come to work regularly.

If you read the last line in my post I also do not think
this is a sustainable solution but so much is being made
of this practice it may be a while before a wiser version
of greed is commonplace.
A wise man I knew once said.
"Allways let the other guy make some money in a deal"
Troble is today the only value many can add is through
an extractive process.

not marx

RE: The Entitlement Generation

"If as an agent of a company are you making deals with
others that are not the most optimal financially with
respect to the companies needs are you not giving away
the companies money??" - Certainly. But one should always make a deal with the next deal in mind.

I think your theory is valid for a situation in which a supplier or an employer has a monopoly position. But if the customer or the employee has a choice, trying to milk them will put you out of business real fast.

My bank is trying to milk me. Unfortunately, all French banks follow your strategy. Everybody knows it. Everybody hates them. I'm staying with them for the time being, grudgingly. I make as little use of their (paid) services as possible. What will happen is predictable: a customer-friendly and cost-effective bank (foreign I suppose) will set foot here in the very near future and will gain millions of customers from day 1 including me.

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