Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
(OP)
This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.
Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.
The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.
At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.
Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.
The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.
At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.





RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
A person trained in any branch of engineering.
So I guess if someone has taught you how to put a drill bit in a chuck or you have spent many years putting letters after your name you are still an engineer.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
6751. Qualifications
(a) The applicant for certification as an engineer-in-training shall comply with all of the following:
(1) Not have committed acts or crimes constituting grounds for denial of registration under Section 480.
(2) Successfully pass the first division of the examination. The applicant shall be eligible to sit for the first division of the examination after satisfactory completion of three years or more of college or university education in a board-approved engineering curriculum or after completion of three years or more of board-approved experience.
Note the last line.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I do call myself a designer but wonder why so many people get miffed about the use of the word engineer. This forum is aptly named in the sense that if we could all get over it, we would have improved ourselves and get ahead in our work.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
IRstuff,
"or after completion of three years or more of board-approved experience."
This can't be without college education. I thought California's rules were some of the most stringent.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The Tick,
Just thinking. If we worked at the same company, you resonsible for one machine and I another, both functioning as they were intended, efficient and safe, yours would be engineered and mine merely designed?
I don't get it.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
6753. Equivalents for experience; education; teaching
With respect to applicants for registration as professional engineers, the board:
(a) Shall give credit as qualifying experience of four years, for graduation with an engineering degree from a college or university the curriculum of which has been approved by the board.
Note that education can be equated to "qualifying experience," not the other way.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
On a brief side note, I just had my windows tinted by "Doctor Tint"... but, he was more of a designer than a doctor...
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
CA is very weird. they cound school as experiance. so you can sit for the EIT with 3 years "experiance" (schooling).
you then need 6 years "experiance" for a PE which equals 4 years of schooling and 2 actual years of experiance.
so you can get a pe in cali with only 2 years of really world
very scarry in my mind to let "children design buildings" as my boss would say
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I have been in the position of training designers (AA degree or less) and engineers to do the same design work at a certain company designing complex molded parts. Without exception, the engineers were able to adapt more quickly. This was due mostly to the breadth and depth of their knowledge and experience. Engineers could more readily assess the consequences of their choices. Mostly due to lack of education, especially in geometry, statics and dynamics, materials, thermodynamics and physics, the designers were not able to assess the design well enough to make sound decisions on their own in more than a few cases.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If someone to ask, I tell him/her I am a designer in engineering.
IMO, I don't care what people call themselves, as long as they are good at what they do.
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Just a question, when you said that you have college, does that mean you have a college ABET Engineering Degree? If you have a BS or BE in engineering, why are you in design instead of taking the Engineering role? And who gives you directions the manager or are there Engineers at your company? You don’t have to answer if it is too personal.
Just curious…
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Once again, I have inherited a cleanup job from a manager who believed the same thing.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I agree with you there and that is how it works with the two companies I worked for. If it was a small design, I can do the design and analysis, but if it was a big one, I would have to rely on my draftsmens and designers to do the bulk of the work and I just have to make sure that all of the mechanical (vib, shock, and heat) requirements are being met. I would also like to add that if something goes wrong, it will be me and not the draftsmen or designer that will get that call into the conference room for an emergency meeting to answer for both the design and analysis.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I was an engineer, lost my job thru layoff, found the job where I'm at. It is secure, like what I do, and payed more than most engineers at other companies.
Engineers here use to give direction, now it is the managers.
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Regards,
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Therefore, I AM an Engineer........... Not a Designer, and not a PE.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You have to remember, the public is who we all answer to as engineers, whether in industry or consulting. We guide the public to enact laws that protect them. I cannot see a justification to bestow the same responsibilities to a designer who cannot qualify to be an engineer as defined by the states.
Haggis: you said: " we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it." You don't get to chose, the public does. Don't try to go around the system, face it head on. If you want the term "engineer" to mean something different, take us engineers on and have the public change the law....
Engineers are the custodians of the knowledge societey needs to be safe and to prosper. The public is wise to demad that their engineers meet certain minimum requirements.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In my company & field, "designer" is a term often applied to non-degreed engineers doing drawings (the old-time draftsman, and today's ACAD expert).
I would have thought the term "designer" would imply something higher than "engineer", but in my company/fiel, this is evidently not the case.
Personally, I prefer the use of "technician", or "engineering technician" to describe non-degreed personnel supporting the overall effort (with exceptions for a very few who, through significant experience, may have the equal of a degree).
Thus, my prefered list of descriptors would be:
Technician
Engineer
P.E.
...at least for "conventional" fields, that is. When uyou get into computers, computer software, and IT, there appears to be two new problems:
1. Everyone and anyone who has ever written a line of code can be considered a software engineer, and
2. New terms are being invented and accepted on a roputine basis.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
And "...today's ACAD expert" ?! I hope not!
SolidWorks expert is better.
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
PSE
It seems we work in totally different environments. Where I work, at a large corporation I might add, the designers do the engineering and the engineers are managers and do absolutely no engineering whatsoever. They prefer it that way as it is a path to climbing the corporate ladder. This suits me and I’m fortunate that they are a good bunch and not standing in line for the credit when the finished product is in operation. Any part of my designs or components thereof can be validated by me in regards to those designs.
patdaly
For me to become a designer in the UK, the companies I worked for required the following practical experience and formal education:
Five years practical, hands- on shop floor experience (age 16 to 21) so that when the designing days came I could design something that could be made and put together.
The designing days were not guaranteed, but at 21 I would at least be a damn good tradesman.
The designing days started at 21 only if I met the following criteria in formal education.
Over the same five year period, part time evenings, I attained an HND (Hons) which I believe is equivalent to 3rd year of a BSc. Yes, there are educational requirements and it was a busy five years.
BobPE
The public are already well protected by the law. The people who work with or in the vicinity of my designs are my public and I too have the knowledge to ensure their health, safety, and well being and I assure you I don’t take this lightly.
In general though, your response was basically self righteous, sanctimonious BS…..don’t confuse that with BSc.
You don’t happen to change in a phone booth by any chance. Do you?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
For example, in Ontario, the PEO at www.peo.on.ca cites
"Under the Professional Engineers Act, the title "engineer" is reserved for licenced professional engineers (except for certain applications such as hoisting engineer and stationary engineers).
More about the Proper Use of Titles
You may use the title "Engineering Intern", "Engineer In Training" or its accepted abbreviation "EIT" if you are registered in PEO's Engineer Internship Training Program. If you would like more information about this program, please contact the association.
Examples of recently revised job titles where the word "Engineer" has been replaced include:
Project Engineer changed to Project Manager, Project Coordinator, Project Analyst, Project Leader, Project Operator, Project Specialist.
Software Engineer to Software Developer, Software Designer, Software Analyst,Technical Engineer to Technical Officer
Junior Engineer to Engineering Trainee or Junior Designer
You may utilize your department name, e.g., Metallurgical Process Engineer to Metallurgical Process Engineering, Quality Assurance Engineer to Quality Assurance Engineering
You may also utilize your engineering degree following your name, e.g. "B.A.Sc.", or "B.Eng."
"Engineering Specialist" is not acceptable.
Titles such as Junior Engineer, Graduate Engineer, Assistant Engineer are not acceptable."
Of course the PEO (and other Canadian jurisdictions) has had a fun time trying to clamp down on those pesky Microsoft Certified Systems "Engineers".
From my point of view, I don't really care. Everyone I work with (colleagues, clients, manufacturers, suppliers, distributors, etc.) has a role to play in making our business tick. Most people don't even know what engineers do for a living. Even when they ask, they're more interested in the places I've traveled to for work, then in the actual work itself.
I have had and read many discussions that improper titles can degrade the profession, but I have not heard any convincing arguments that this is so. Most of the arguments that I've heard do come across as elitist, but then again, I've never really been one to swim with the rest of the school.
Cheers,
CanuckMiner, P.Eng.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Glad I got my point across....If you are confused by my post, well, thats why the forums are here.....we "engineers" will help any way we can....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In many states, if not most, no one can legally call themselves an engineer, professional or otherwise, unless they are licensed. New York State is more liberal than most and does permit non-PEs to call themselves engineers.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
thank you
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
My wife is a nurse (RN). She worked with a nurse practitioner once that saw herself as a doctor! scary
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I think the medical field have their own issues....I think your wife can atest to that.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I have the degree and the experience and will continue to call myself an engineer, even when the policemen come for me.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Your state decides if you can call yourself engineer or not, not you. The fines can be quite substantial in you hold yourself out as an engineer to the public and you do not meet the states requirements.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
A license is a requirement in some fields but there are many, many others where it is not necessary. My perspective is from the mechanical engineering side. I imagine that those in civil engineering will have entirely different opinions.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
There is the industrial exemption, but that only applies to being an engineer withing the company you work for, not outside and that applies to almost all the states.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
New Jersey sent a seasonal newsletter out last year that clearly stated that NO ONE can call themselves an engineer to ANY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC unless they are a PE. Other states have similar rules. This rule doesn't apply when you are at your office or plant. But when you go home and go out to a party, if you are not a PE, you can't tell people that you are an engineer. New York, however, is different than New Jersey and will allow you to call yourself an engineer if you are not a PE. Each state has its own rules in this matter. The real problem here is that people are finding out about these types of rules and about licensing late in their careers. Licensing has not been properly promoted in the USA.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The question is whether a word or the use of a word should be restricted by licensing boards or lawmakers rather than context of use. I myself don’t use the word to describe what I do for a living but if I did tell someone at the I was an engineer at the town picnic, I am hardly holding myself out to the public or trying to mislead and I doubt that I would find myself in court. We would all have to choose our words very carefully even in casual conversation, if this word restriction continued in other areas.
For example, Dr. Les Robertson, who is indeed qualified to introduce himself as such, and being one of the world’s foremost structural engineers, is hardly required to elaborate in which field he has a PhD or to stress that he is not in fact a medical doctor for fear of misleading someone.
Judge...did Dr.Robertson profess to be a medical doctor or lead anyone to believe that he was such?
Procecutor...No. But he introduced himself as Dr.
Judge...You seem to have jumped to a conclusion. Case dismissed.
There is a vast difference in the way you put it forth as “holding themselves out to the public as being an engineers” which to me, could be construed as an implication that they are qualified to work in a discipline which requires licensure. The solicitation or performance of work that requires licensure, the false use of PE or any other letters that would put one forward as being licensed when in fact they were not, deserves severe penalties and on this point I agree with you 100%.
However, I disagree that the states should not concern themselves more in licensure by discipline although I would hope that there are not too many PE’s out there that would overstep their boundaries of expertise.
In closing, as a gentleman, I apologize for the manner in which I answered your first reply
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I run into this alot...engineering requires licensure if you wish to practice it in public...it does nat matter what the disipline is....It would be a three ring circus if the states focused in on individual disiplines. In my opinion, engineering is engineering...and the states regulate engineering, nuclear to maritime, to mining to electrical to mechanical to civil...it is all engineering that can be offered to the public. In most all states, PE=Engineer and the term are one in the same. That is why it is so important to understand what the state that you are in says about the use of engineer if you choose to use it, licensed or not.
no need to apologize for letting us know your thoughts...the way I look at this is that we are all in this together as engineers and we are the only ones that should be planning our future. I am glad you took the time to read what I had to say...It is always nice to get in-depth here with other engineers....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If, however, the mayor is there and asks if I want to bid on a construction project, I would certainly have to say that a license is required to do that.
I would like to assume that if a company advertises for an engineer that I can legally apply for the job. If the ad says PE required, then of course I can't.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If you say that you are an engineer to someone and they look up on the states licensure web site and you are not a PE, then they report it to the board that you said you were an engineer and they could not find your name among engineers in the state...Then the state comes to ask what was going on....
Now, just who would do something like that...probably a freak that you would not be cought dead speaking with at a party in the first place...but yes...there is the potential for you to be fined...
The employment question is a good example. Anyone can advertise for an engineer and if you satisfy their requirements you will get hired. Now, being that the firm hired you as an engineer and assuming you don't have a PE, the firm puts "engineer" on your business care. You hand that card out and another PE gets it. the PE looks you up to see you not listed in the states registry as an engineer, even though your card says you are. They cry to the state that you are pretending to be an engineer and that you are taking work away from them. The state steps in and calls you on your use of the term engineer...the rest is up to the boards....
It's all how you represent yourself and to whom. But definately know your states rules and laws.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
BobPE stated it quite accurately. The solution is for all prospective candidates to get licensed, which is what the originators of engineer licensure had in mind when the process was created. The licensure process was subverted via loopholes by companies/industries/individuals with selfish motives.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I think it's okay for people to be called an "engineer" if they do engineering work for their company. As long as they do not advertise to the public to perform engineering work for a fee they should not get into trouble.
Ed
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
An electrican with a supervisors license may make and stamp drawings if he is working for a contractor.
In a couple of states you can put electrical engineer on your business card and make drawings. IF the drawings are for an installation not required by state law to have a PE stamp your OK. I have read several cases that said an engineer could not "offer" to do work for the general public, but could do work otherwise. The details of it all I'm not sure of, I think it mean among other things he could not list hiself in the phone book as an engineer. he could get work by networking or referals.
If your an owner and want to build a small office building you can call a contract agency and get an "engineer" to do the plans. If the building is not required to have a PE by the state it's a go. I have seen this done by degreed non PEs, licensed electricans and "Designers". The plans get reviewed by a building department official. The "plans examiner" is usuall an electrican who checks everything per the NEC. NEC compliance doen't mean it's good design, just that it won't start a fire or kill someone. Thats good enough in lots of places, get in built and on the tax rolls.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Unless you are in one of the 3 (and only 3) specified groups, you're not covered by the California PE act anyway.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You are right, CA has a very weak PE law and the public pays dearly for it....There are other parts of the law that are even more vague and more frightning.
It is definately not a model typical of the remaining states...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
From what I am hearing, I will have to avoid states like NJ even if just passing through.
You could have a problem if you mention to anyone you have an engineering degree from xyz college, you are an engineer at xyz company, and you are a member of Society of xyz Engineers.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I think you are missing the point. If YOU call yourself an engineer, YOU are responsible for that decision if your state has restriction on the use of that word. Having an engineering degree, being a member of an organization, or working for a company in an engineering position have nothing at all to do with the you use of the term engineer.
By all means, don't avoid New Jersey, they restrict the use of the term engineer and the state is far safer becuase of that!!!!!!
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I work in an adversarial industry. I get to meet many "engineers" in the course of my job. Many of these folks are using the engineering title as a means by which to fool people into agreeing to do things that they shouldn't be doing. This is exactly why there are licensure laws. I am sure that many of the folks with 4 year BS degrees are well meaning and fairly competent. But that is a philosophical statement. Society needs a uniform legal method of qualifying who is an engineer. The PE exam is that method. You can have a variety of applicants from differing educational and experiential backgrounds. The PE exam takes these varied applicants and gives them a common method of credential evaluation. The moment I meet an "engineer" for the first time, back at my office I check to see if they are listed on the state roster of professional engineers. If they are not, then I have no idea of their credentials and abilities until I work with them for a prolonged period of time. Do yourself a favor: Get Licensed.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In terms of the legal position at a dinner party in NJ, is it OK to say "I work as an engineer (but the PE I work with signs off on everything I produce)" - I know we are getting into semantics now, but it bugs me to think the work I'm doing now isn't engineering but next week/month/year when I get my PE, it will be engineering even though the work hasn't changed.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I don't either, can you explain it. I have a Califoria PE and haven't compromised anyone or any project. If your read the California State Boards website they go after people all the time.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I hope you're not in New Jersey!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
CA allows people without engineering degrees (high school diploma or anything else for that matter) to engineer for the public....New Jersey does not....hmmmmmm I see that as the problem, and in my opinion can safely make the assumption that I would feel rather safe in NJ....
You are right melone, now that I think about it more, that is not funny, it is sad.....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Not true. Only people with a PE can engineer for the public. If the board decides to register someone with a high school diploma they can do so and that person can engineer for the public.
A person without a PE can call theirselves engineers ( but not PEs, REs etc) and can design whatever the law allows.
Its probably the same as NJ and lots of other places. Is every strip mall in NJ designed by a PE? NJ has some pretty good electricans with a lot of political clout. I'll bet there doing a lot more than you suspect.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
read the law...CA is one of the only states that I know of that allows this to happen....
And nope, PE's have it under better control in NJ than is CA. I don't think PE's need to design strip malls, Architects would take exception to that....and what do electricians have to do with the discussion??? just curious......
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
My point about electricans was that lots of stuff gets designed and built without a PE comming near the place.
I think being a PE is great. But the term engineer means more and includes a wider group of people than PEs. If it's coninually advocated that only PEs can use the term engineer there will be a public backlash and probably some consequences. The law is fine the way it is. We can have engineers and PEs. Burt Rutan can design planes, Dean Karmen can design Segways and they can put engineer on their business card. The guy that designs my kids school better be a registerd structural engineer as the law requires. Trying to protect or limit a profession legislatively won't work for engineers - were not in the same league with doctors and lawyers.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
BJC:
the laws do not protect or limit the profession, they protect the public and they are by the public....and I agree that we are not in the same league as doctors and lawyers...I feel we are in a league above them...maybe that is why I have such an interesting time with other engineers that down play the profession....not saying that of you, I understand what you are saying and I am tryng to provide another opinion.
In my world it is simple...no one should be doing engineering but engineers, and all engineers should be licensed.....That is not to say that we do not need support in our endevours....these designers and technicians are a valuable tool in engineering, but they are not engineers....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
This may be the case now, but according to the gospel of Bob, it is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have 30 years experience, several master degrees, a few phd's and hundreds of patents that have revolutionized the way we live, if you aren't licensed, you should not be considered an engineer.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
See where I am going.....the PE makes you cross a bar that all the unrelated and garbage credentials in the world cannot get you over unless they are the RIGHT ones....it is really that simple....
again...praise be!!!! LOL
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Its not the gospel of BobPE, its the law in many states, New Jersey for example. However in New York anyone can call themselves an engineer. But in New York you still need to be a PE to offer engineering services to the public (with some small exceptions as noted earlier). This doesn't impact someone like you since you are not offering engineering services to the public, but are an employee in a company with a manufactured product. We have many people at my place of employment who do engineering. Some are licensed but others are not. Those who are not licensed where I work are required to be under the supervision of a PE (My employer does offer engineering services to the public). The unlicensed folks where I work are allowed to call themselves engineers in New York but not in New Jersey. Its all dependent upon the particular state in question. I am more content with the New York model than with the New Jersey one, but it makes little difference to me as I am a PE in both states.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Can he drive a locomotive?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If I offered my services to the general public, not being a PE would be the very least of my worries.
If I were a PE, it would probably be as a EE, which would make me more dangerous to the public, since I've never done any EE related to public safety and wouldn't know where to begin.
I think that making every engineer a PE completely destroys the ONE discriminant that any customer has for picking someone who is required to maintain public safety. If all engineers were PEs, then any PE could offer his services to the public, regardless of any other qualifications. After a few years and many disasters, someone would realize that and a whole new category of engineer would need to be created, and this cycle of debate would continue onward.
The current laws require that the public safety be maintained through the use of registered and licensed professional engineers. Making all engineers completely dilutes the pools and nullifies the intent of the PE laws, by allowing PEs who would normally have zero public interaction and public safety responsibility to offer their services to the public. The end result will be lots of lawsuits and increased liability insurance premiums, causing either a massive shortage of engineers or an effort to create a separate tier of PEs that are the only ones allowed to offer their services to the public, based on a set number of years of apprenticeship to an "master" PE. Sound like the current system?
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
No that does not sound like the current system. Your "public" may be other weapons manufaturers that you may want to consult to for a profit and share your skills. If you don't have a PE, that is something you cannot do in most states...That is the problem. I just don't see how advincing the profession would cause its collapse.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Lets say that I want to put up a building. I then go shopping for a design professional. I take out an ad stating that I need engineering services. I get a series of proposals from numerous individuals and companies. How do I evaluate their credentials? They produce a diploma. How do I know if the school they attended is a good one? They produce a resume stating their work experiences. How do I know that any of it is for real? They could have their buddies as contacts & references. Suppose that I am crooked and don't care if they do a design that endangers the building occupants? This is why the PE system exists. If you are a PE, then you will have a license number that I can look up on the internet. I don't have to weed through a bunch of material to evaluate your credentials, the state already did that when they issued the license.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If what you all are saying is true in NJ, then in NJ are there no companies that have manufacturing and quality engineers? If there are, do they get penalized for telling their next door neighbor that they are an engineer? I am not talking about an engineer calling himself a Professional Engineer or whatever and submitting a bid to design a new bridge.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
EngJW:
You can tell your coworker in the industry where you are woking on those motors that you are an engineer, but you cannot tell your neighbor...You just don't get to decide if you are an engineer outside of the industrial exemption when the state has laws covering engineers usage....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
All ranking systems are based on some sort of pyramidal method. By making all engineers PEs, you effectively eliminate any semblance of ranking.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
OK, let me see if I understand you correctly... you are assuming that the public cannot determine qualifications of engineers then? I guess I come off on the side that the public is very intellegent in understanding the process that they put in place...and can determine a good or qualified engineer from a bad or unqualified engineer for a particualr project.
You know my opinion about the PE for all...it is a worthy goal...and if all engineers had a PE we would be a powerful force....for good I may add....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If all engineers had PEs we would be like "Sneetches on the Beaches". When we all had gold stars some would have to have red or platinum and so on.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
a) Those who want a legally defined critera for determining who is an engineer.
b) Those who want no critera determined by anyone other than themselves.
a was created by engineers, society & government.
b was created by employers & companies.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You advocate that everyone in engineering positions doing engineering work be PE's whether or not they are in industry. I have already agreed that where public safety is concerned that a PE is a must. No question about it,and I would think that most of your oponents here are of the same opinion.
However,do you think that non degreed people, depending on experience, recommendations from PE supervisors and a lengthy interview with the licensing board should get a license? Or is it no degree, no PE.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I would let the states decide how to incorporate those non-degreed people during the first stages of getting everyone on board. Some states, like PA, let a person sit for the EIT and PE with 12 years progressivley responsible engineering work upon documenting such work, no degree needed. Now that is not to say that all will pass the exams and I would not advocate waivers or changing the exams.
I have a very rigid opinion today because of confusion the industrial exemption causes. I would change that opinion as we make steps forward or backward...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You're quote "I would not advocate waivers or changing the exams."
Agreed. Strange...I'm agreeing with you more and more these days
haggis
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
And frankly, the answer is the typical customer is NOT smart enough, otherwise, you won't have building or structure collapses due to insufficient engineering.
Even MY customers, who are highly specialized in their fields are often ignorant about desired and required performance for weapon systems that have been in production for 20 yrs.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Granted, you might have the best intentions and public interest at heart when you design something. But what about the guy down the street who thinks he's just as good but doesn't really have a clue? That's what licensing is all about....it provides a demonstration of competence to practice at a level of defined standards. Since you are not licensed, you have nothing to lose other than perhaps your self-respect if something goes awry. A licensed engineer can lose his license and thus his livelihood with mistakes and that is one reason licensed engineers are a bit more careful about their designs and their responsibility for the protection of the health, safety and welfare of the public. If you design something and it fails, you have only a civil penalty to pay, and then only if you are successfully sued. A licensed engineer has both the civil penalty and statutory (criminal) penalty if he is found to be negligent in his duty.
BobPE is exactly right and that is not self-righteous, sanctimonious BS....it is the law in almost all states of the US. To dilute the profession in the manner you are promoting is not good for the profession or the public.
If that's self-righteous and sanctimonious in your view, then so be it.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Be careful what you wish for.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Of course not.
Engineers in the UK face several problems, but pseudo engineers working on big projects like this really doesn't seem to be one of them.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
How about over-promoted technicians using the title 'engineer' signing off electrical drawings for construction without understanding what they are checking?
Over-promoted draftsmen using the title 'engineer' signing off steam pipe design calculations?
Hazardous area designs being approved by people untrained and unqualified to do so?
Seen 'em, tried to stop 'em, been told to keep the peace by management. Thankfully it won't be me going to Coroner's Court to explain it.
The above problems are a mix of examples from the construction and maintenance worlds. Remember the Flixborough disaster? Things haven't moved on as far as they should have.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Consider the licesing of doctors, which is what is often cited as a model for the licensing of engineers. What is not pointed out is that doctors have a multi-tiered system that determines the net income and area of expertise as well. This comes in the form of specialization and board certification. Even the lowest rung, which is the Family Medicine requires board certification, otherwise, you would simply be a General Practitioner and not allowed to do certain things. A Surgeon, whether, general or cosmetic, likewise requires BOTH longer training periods AND board certifications.
Even if all engineers were forceably licensed, you would need to create a separate tiering so that ONLY those that are qualified and trained are allowed to design and engineer public structures, etc. General purpose engineers would still have to legally constrained from performing these engineering tasks.
Without a separate tiering, the competitive pool for public services would essentially double, since all engineers would be legally allowed to offer their services, including those that are only moonlighting. This would contract the salary scales, not expand them.
Scarcity is what increases renumeration, not increased competition. That's why there's a limited number of residency spots available every year, coupled with the 5+ yr residencies to cull out the specialists that make the big bucks. A typical surgeon can easily pull in 3 times the salary of the typical family practitioner.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
A couple of things about doctors ( and lawyers). Doctors and Lawyers regulate their own groups. The AMA and the Bar are run by doctors and lawyers for doctors and lawyers. Engineers don't have a comparable organization. Those that exist -NSPE and IEEE for two are controlled by management and not run for Joe Engineer.
The other thing is that the general public will need a doctor in their lifetime and probabley a lawyer as well. Most of them will never need an engineer or knows what one does.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
IRStuff,
Some states have dicipline specific PE licensing (Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, etc).
In addition:
One of my neighbors decided to do an extensive regrading of his backyard. Part of the project involved the construction of a retaining wall at the property line. The adjoining neighbor saw what was going on and did some inquiries. The project was being done without a construction permit and the retaining wall was not designed by a Licensed Professional Engineer. The town was called and put a stop to the project until the proper procedure was followed. I wouldn't care if the retaining wall was being designed by Burt Rutan, if you don't have a PE you shouldn't be doing it.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Regulation, even by the AMA is a joke. As with the priesthood, sins are generally glossed over. There are lots of cases where so-called doctors with multitudes of malpractice judgements against them still practicing. Even with the alleged oversight, there are sill idiot customers, case in point is where a well-known psychiatric institution suddenly found out that their director of 10 yrs had neither MD nor even a basic degree.
My issue is with the concept of making all engineers PEs as a panacea for low wages and protection of the "engineer" title.
The purpose of the PE act is public safety and THAT should and must remain its primary raison d'etre. To use it for other purposes will only dilute its limited abilities to regulate the profession. The public, when it's paying attention at all, must have a clear, unambiguous means of determining whether an engineer offering his services has the appropriate credentials and certifications for doing the job.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
ScottyUK, your examples are good, but they are NOT caused by the sanitation engineer nomenclature silliness.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I suggest you reread my postings. I do not call myself an engineer and do not misrepresent myself to the public as being licensed.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If Rutan engineered anything for anyone outside of his company, hw would need a PE. I would imagine he would want the ability to do something like that, maybe not though...
IRStuff:
In my little world, the PE would be a world requirement...I do not discriminate because of boarders...
The industrial exemption would cease to exist and that overabundance on engineers you site would evaporate as now industry would have to use licensed engineers, of which, there would not be many that would be able to pass the necessary requirements (assumption on my part). This would lead to greater control of the profession by us, and lead to good things like higher wages. So I don't see your argument.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Actually I think they are the outcome of it. When people are allowed to use the title 'engineer' indiscriminately when they are nothing of the sort, eventually they start to believe that because they have managed to misappropriate the engineer's title, they can actually do the engineer's work. After that it is a downward spiral.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
http://www.rugdoctor.com/
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Funny thing, a couple friends and I were cleaning up an unused park, nothing huge, but a nice community project. To make this park useable, a small pedestrian bridge was needed to replace one that the vandals had burned. Now, I was willing to build a heck for strong steel and concrete one, out of my own pocket and labor. I am in fact, a degreed ME, though not ( nor ever intend to be ) a PE. Though technically in the wrong, I was willing to risk it for the public "good". As things progressed, the others wanted recgonition, and formed a not for profit, got pats on the back from the city, etc. Now, I am forced to say I will be no part of this project, and guess what? Totally untrained people are building another wooden structure, which, if not burned by vandals, will have no form of engineering expertise applied, all in the name of the law. Is this how we intend to keep the public safe?
I guess the point is, while we certainly would not want a person such as myself designing skyscrapers or boilers ( then again, perhaps we do as I overengineer everything ), we can also carry, for the sake of politics and the retention of salaries, this to a level which may actually endanger public safety.
Another point, as my hobby, I build race cars, by the definition thrown around here, I would be in violation, for certainly adding structure and designing and making parts for said race car is Engineering.........yet Billy up the street that can cut and weld would have no problem?
Somewhere between the camp who call themselves Engineer without so much as a degree, and those who believe only a LPE should be allowed to call themselves Engineer, lies the best shot at true public safety.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
patdaly:
since you are not a PE it certainly may be illegal for you to proceed, so good call. But as for the ethical duties, a PE would know exactly what to do in this case. the non-PE, thankfully would have this forum here to seek help. I suggest that if you are exposed ti illegal or suspect practice of engineering, you should contact your state licensure board and fill out the necessary paperwork to report the incident. A PE would face fines if they did not report unlicensed practice...for other non-PE's, they face no fines however, you have special knowledge of the practice occuring, so you may become a part of the problem if you do not handle this correctly.
"Somewhere between the camp who call themselves Engineer without so much as a degree, and those who believe only a LPE should be allowed to call themselves Engineer, lies the best shot at true public safety." ---- you are wrong, and could be potentially be dead wrong...
You example only solidifies the importance of licensure and elimination of the confusion. People think they can engineer...without licensure...that is the system we have now, and what I strive to change....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The public is never endangered by engineering licensure.
I have seen plenty of welds done by "Billy Up The Street". I told one of these "welders" once that he had done a weld that endangered the occupants of the building and that I would have him thrown in jail for attempted murder if I could.
Like a lot of MEs you have been involved with cars and racing (Me too). And as you know, only the very upper end of racing has cars that are engineered. Well I heard a story from a racer friend of mine about a driver who commissioned a racecar builder to make a new car for him that would blow away the competition. This new car was way too light structurally and when it finally made contact with the wall, as every racecar eventually does, it came apart and injured the driver severely. The driver ended up with numerous medical problems that caused his death a few months later. This led to changes in the rulebook on the minimum structural properties that a racecar must have before being considered safe.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
My immediate “supervisor” is a PE as are those above him and does nothing but arrange time lines, manage budgets and write job sheets to arrange the necessary manpower. The only official act I have seen him perform in 20 years was to sign a passport photograph for a coworker stating that the applicant was known to him for x amount of years and that the picture was a true likeness.
How do they get their PE’s? The company hires them after graduation and puts them in a “supervisory” position to eventually obtain a PE. For some reason, company policy has always been to hire engineering graduates and let them ride it out doing basically clerical work. Some who discovered this early, are long gone to pursue what they wanted to do…be an engineer.
So, what is scary? Experienced designers in exempt positions, or these guys who could leave (but won’t) and hang their shingles, offer engineering services in the public sector and be completely within the law.
In no way am I saying that this situation is common but it does exist and anyone who attains PE status under these conditions is doing a diservice to themselves and the profession as a whole. Those who strongly advocate PE status across the board would now have the dangerous element in the public sector among them whereas the industry exempt are kept at bay.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I am assuming you have been in industry your entire career? Step back and look at what you wrote. You look silly saying that about those people. Dangerous element? How do you know that? Keep it focused....
you contributions are good here and I enjoy the banter, but please, don't stoop to what appears to me to be a misinformed assumption about a group of people.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
To imply that the people who have designed cars, computers, factories, and all our toys are not engineers is rediculous.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Doctors are licensed AND scarcity controlled, and you have "Rug Doctor." Licensing will NOT eliminate spurious titles, primarily because they are indeed spurious. Trademark infringement case law has plenty of precedents that allow usage of even trademarked terms, when there is clearly no possibility of confusion about the overlapping of trademarks.
Since "engineer" is hardly a trademark, no law that would propose to restrict the usage of "engineer" in a non-engineering usage would be enforceable.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
EngJW,
Most of the folks that I meet in the engineering community do not know about engineering licensure. Most find out about it late in their careers, at which time it becomes onerous to obtain. I fell into this catagory as well, but managed to become a PE anyway. Now that you as well as others on this forum have become informed, it is now your duty to get your PE. You can no longer claim ignorance.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Like the rug doctors, we have a Dr. Feelgood on the local radio station. I don't think the AMA is making an issue over it.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
There are laws regarding "engineer" and we do enforce them. What we are attempting to say here is, do your homework if you are an engineer, and go for the PE, why not?
EngJW:
I would have thought you read these posts a bit more. You need a PE to design ANYTHING that is not for your industry exempt company. And this goes for most states. Just because you may have received some poor advice early on, learn from what we are saying here...You point about the bridge is the most common misconception I hear...Hearing it makes me chuckle, it shows ignorance, along with all the other 80% of engineers not licensed, to the licensure laws on the books...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Don't guess, read the laws for your state or the state you wish to provide services in. It is all there...and many of your questions will be answered.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Your Dr. Feelgood most likely doesn't put "M.D." after his name.
Why don't you just get licensed so that you can call yourself a Professional Engineer? That way no one has to guess beforehand about whether you are in reality a drafter, a designer, a machinist or who knows what? Because that's what you might be when you don't have a license. And I've met numerous people who fit that description.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Engineering licensing laws have been around since the 1930s in the USA. Although they are not perfect, they serve a useful and noble purpose. I have met quite a few people engaging in unlicensed practice of engineering. Most of these folks are nice people who are from 3rd world countries and have no idea that what they are doing is wrong. I want to report them, but my employer will retaliate against me if I do. Engineering Licensure is about determining minimum competence BEFORE you hire someone. If you hire an unlicensed engineer, you will end up determining minimum competence AFTER you hire them. Which would you prefer?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I agree that casual conversation will most likely not hurt anyone. It is an individuals responsibility to draw their own line, and suffer what consequences their decisions may bring.
My worst case example of how out of control things are is a time I was in court, providing expert testimony on an engineering related matter. An expert "engineer" was called to chalange my opinion and the lawyers on the side I was on let that person testify. At the conclusion of the testimony, they asked for the persons license number as they had not givien it in their opening. The person was not an engineer which scocked and angered many people. The judge asked the person on what authority they were speaking and the reply was, well I engineered the structure we are here today to discuss....the judge asked if it was the same structure that he is being lead to believe failed because of incorrect engineering practices...Yes it was...
The judge handled the individual who was eventually fined. The case went to the people I was working with. The point is that this is a common misconception, and people that practice illegally often have not a single clue that they are in the wrong....Thankfully in this case, no one was hurt.
I preach often and will continue to preach at every opportunity to get engineers licensed to stop this insanity. It is our profession, not industries, not governments, not consultants and certainly not charlatans.....If we don't step up to take control of it, then who will???
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
As for me, I clean forgot where the park even is anymore, the sign of substandard intelligence I suppose.
EddyC,
Obviously the rules book dictates things such as bar placement, sizes and wall thickness, and this is a good thing. However, the rules cannot, due to the widely varying body styles dictate exact placement. This is where experience, and being able to determine where the loads will be placed in that event that differentiate us from the lay person. The question is, does it require a PE to build a safe car?
Sorry people, each camp will continue to promote their agenda, but it is a bit silly to promote the requirement of a PE for anything produced, especially when the vast majority of goods is increasingly coming from China....... I wonder if the lawn sprinkler I just bought at Kmart was signed off by a PE?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Nope, I got the point....you come across crystal clear...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I'm not necessarily advocating that racing cars be designed by PEs only, but most of the design rules were not created by engineers (degreed or licensed). Most of the racers that I have met do things by trial & error. They certainly don't have the capacity to figure out what is going to happen before they do it (and this is what engineering is all about).
If a product is sold in the USA the people of the USA certainly have the right, if they so desire, to have that product be designed by US state licensed PEs. I personally don't trust much coming out of an authoritarian regime.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I assure you that I am not making a misinformed assumption about a group of people. I have worked for over 20 years with these particular individuals and know first hand what their capabilities are in respect to engineering. A “supervisor”, two levels above my immediate, was a student here and is now entitled Superintendent of Manufacturing Engineering. He got there because of his managerial talent not his technical abilities.
The point I was trying to make is that they can, if they so desired, go into private practice and although they had the ability to attain a Batchelor’s degree, become PE’s and for the following 20 years do nothing but manage, in this instance, is the public being protected by licensure.?
They may be within the law, but quite frankly none of them in all good conscience, should even consider patdaly’s wooden footbridge. You may think dangerous was too strong a term but public safety is a huge factor in this debate as I'm sure you'll agree. I have tremendous faith in professionals, when I fly, I don't give it a second thought. I trust the guys up front know what they are doing. When I enter a building or drive on a highway overpass I have the same regard for the PE's but would hope that the right ones were involved in the design.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Engineering laws have been around longer than that. Engineering laws acturally started for land surveyors. They didn't have anything to do with public safety. They had all to do with MONEY. People demanded good surveyors because they didn't want to loose part of their land or PAY for land and find out someone else had a claim to it. Money, not safety was the motive. As things progressed other people wanted to assure things didn't blow up or otherwise fail and cost them money. Insurance companies were the force behind this.
Registering all engineers would be useless. I made a previous reference to a Dr Suess story that would illistrate what would happen. As soon as all engineers were PEs some would want to be "more equal". We might have life safety qualifed PEs. So then your certificate and business card could say PELS or something like that.
My advise to youg engineers is to get registered and the reason is MONEY. Even though itls irrevalnet to your present employer some day you may be looking for a job and the potential employeer will be impressed engough to favor you over canidate who don't have one. I have seen it happen many times. IF your kids have bad habits (habits like living in a house, wearing shoes, eating etc,) that need supporting then get it. It's good insurance. Many people who hire engineers don't know what they do but they know that PE means your a certified smart person.
EOT for me, it's been fun, some people should take theirselves to seriously.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Using airline pilots as an example, a 737 Captain becomes First Officer again in 777's.
If I were a PE, I would advocate that. As I said in my previous post, I trust the guys up front are well trained just as I hope the PE's were when I go to the 50th floor.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
On the other hand, the others that he refers to, having no expertise whatsoever, will most likely duplicate the prior design, which had stood the test of time, if nothing else.
Much of the cachet of a PE is the application specific experience and knowledge about what and when to overdesign and what factors are critical for a sound design.
Unless a PE has the equivalent of a surgeon's 7-yr residency and board certification, would you really trust any licensed CE to design a structurally sound structure? Right now, licensed CEs presumably have that equivalency, due to the nature of the existing PE process.
If all engineers were required to be PEs, any CE would most likely get some sort of grandfathering or accelerated processing to speed up licensing. Unless the PE laws are radically changed, that CE would be presumably allowed to take on Patdaly's bridge, for better or worse...
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
What is a CE?
And the engineers do have the equivalent of residency, its the 4 year EIT process, that is why the application is sometimes the hardest part of taking the PE for some.
BJC:
Licensure laws were finally started after a tank collapse in Bosten that killed several people and destroyed the down town economy. The tank was holing molasses and it failed due to several factors, all pertaining to engineering. This was the start of a fix by the public for us practicing and mandated the current training and licensure system we see and use today. The PE is always subject to change and wouldn't it be exciting to be a part of that? Change is good and who knows what we would do once we all got the PE? But I am sure it would be good, we are good people for the most part by default in my book. the bad apples get picked out using the law...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Now, the question remains, is a 20 foot pedestrian bridge more, or less safe with sound engineering principals applied? It is quite a stretch on your part to suppose that the previous design had stood the test of time, based upon no information. I thought a PE was supposed to not make assumptions?
In any case, I have made my case clear, you have made yours clear, and hopefully we can have a nice long truce, at least long enough for me to pass from this earth, for I wish not to live in a society where innovation is constrained by the need for risk to be legislated out.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If legislation = saving people from harm, even from errant design of a bottle making machine, then so be it....
I do not find that the PE restricts innovation, rather the contrary, the PE stimulates free thinking based on one being responsible for putting their ideas forward to a public that needs them.
I find industry (and not industry exempt) to be stifling in that we PE's typically do not seek patents for our ideas and industry freely snaps them up and patents them making them for the most part un-workable relics in very little time.
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Never once did I see anyone do anything questionable. We could cut costs and use parts that weren't quite to print, but we could never do anything that would affect safety of flight. Many of us were pilots and would not hesitate to get in a plane using our products.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Sounds like the PE would only help that business...I often question some of the accidents I had a chance to look at either through the media or in engineer journals...The PE may or may not have helped avert these, but it certainly would not have hurt....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I always wondered how licensing of engineers originated. Thanks for clueing us in.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The FAA would not lobby for the PE, they are exempt and treat engineering licensure law infractions like any lay person would, they have no clue....They are a regulatory agency that as EngJW pointed out, are concerned with checking that their check forms boxes are all checked...It is up to us PE's to push for enforcement of the law, unfortunately there are not may PE's in that business...
I fly all the time, and I do wo with the comfort that there are many years of trial and error, that did not come at the cost of me or my family, not becaue of the qualification of the "engineers." Should this process be controlled by PE's? You bet!!!! Will it? Maybe one day.....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The process for becoming a licensed engineer involves four years of training with a licensed Professional Engineer (Correct me if I am wrong). Since you already claim that not enough engineers in industry exempt jobs are not licensed, how can a young engineer become licensed if there are not any older licensed engineers to train with. I find myself in this situation, as even if I wanted to become a PE I would not be able to as I do not work with other PE's.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You situation is the biggest problem we have to face...I do not want to see the laws changed, but at the same time, we need to understand the situation that industry has put you exempt engineers in. I have vouched for several exempt engineers that approached me on projects that I was working on with them in their facilities. Upon reviewing my ethical responsibilities, I found no problem helping them.
Find consultants working in your facility, they are there, believe me. Approach the boss of the consultant firm and your boss and ask them if they can help.
Look within your company, there may be PE's there...start a professional relationship with them....
Go to outside local organizations like NSPE and get friends with PE's there....
Some states have longer time limits that you can meet in lieu of the 4 years...for example, i believe PA has 12 years of progressing experience not under a PE.
You can also work with your state board, they are aware of this problem and are always willing to help any ay they can. In fact, that would be my first contact...see how they can help.....
You definately have an uphill battle, and in my opinion, it is by design because "industry" does not want you licensed....You can win, it happens all the time....
Do let us know how you make out.....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The first state engineering registration act was passed by Wyoming in 1907. Massachusetts didn't get around to it untill 1941. You can read all about it on the following website.
http
The history of registration has been on most of the PE exams I have taken, but I only have one from east of the Mississippi.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I was refering to how the whole process came about, not how it became ratified by the states....Boston had a process different than what they have now...but it recognized minimum requirements of engineers....
The history of what it is we do is fascinating, and tragic.....
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I'm pushing 60 and my biggest worry is even having a job to make it to retirement. I thought the most difficult thing about getting the PE would be having the stamina to sit through an 8 hour exam. Now the requirement of working under the supervision of a PE would really kill the deal. There is only one other engineer here, with less experience than me, and I don't know any in this field. Oh, well, there are bigger battles to fight.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
When a PE designs a building or a bridge, there is no room for error. This is evident from catastophes that were the driving force behind licensure. It's a one shot deal and it better not collapse under normal circumstances. The PE laws in the private sector, which I agree with, are in place for the general good of the public in this respect.
Aircraft designers and manufacturers on the other hand, have the luxury of the destructive testing and test flights of their designs. This is niether to take away from the expertise of these people as many of them are PhD's but not PE's, nor is it meant to imply that the Civil/Structural people always get it right the first time.
Aircraft design is a field that is changing everyday and not everything can be built using last years details. Proof of this is in the Airbus A380.
The point is that an aircraft will never be designed and built then released to the public on the theories of aerodynamics and materials alone. When it enters service, the public is already assured of it's safety. What difference would a PE make in this case.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Not all states require PE references. I suggest checking your particular state laws. You can link to them from www.ncees.org Just click on "Licensing Boards". The state licensing boards can also be quite flexible if you formally explain your difficulties in meeting all their prerequisites.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
yikes...you are asking what difference a PE would make in the process, after all this discussion....
It is an awsome responsibility to hold the entire design under your control...every person, every task, every calculation....and rightly so, it must all be under one persons control, this is where the PE fits in....the engineers put their career, reputation, their license on the line for that design. I would think this is far far better than what we have now...nothing...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You already said that you were comfortable with flying. How so? You put it that their engineering was trial and error, which could imply that they are not sure of what they are doing. I put it as destructive testing and test flights rather than releasing a thing like a 777 solely on the theory of flight alone. If tomorrow, you flew in the most inovative, largest, heaviest aircraft ever to take flight, would make you feel better if the PhD at the head of this project was a PE registered in Washington state?
C'mon, Bob, when you, I or any other member of the public get to fly in that aircraft, it's integrity and safety have been well proven and people are held accountable.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Serious design flaws, similar to those found in public structures, are often not found except through crashes. The critical safety flaw in the original DC-10 was not discovered until an otherwise non-fatal failure of turbofan blades sliced through the ONLY place on the plane where there was no redundancy in the hydraulic lines.
Bad design coupled with poor maintenance resulted in damage to the rear elevator jackscrew on the ?? (I forget which, either B717 or MD-80)
The only two cases that readily come to mind where design flaws were discovered during flight testing was the tail cracking of the DC-9 stretch 80 (MD-80), where a higher than usual landing attitude caused the tail to impact the runway and the F-22, where problems in the fly-by-wire control system caused "uncommanded oscillations" that wrecked one of the prototypes.
One of the Delta III prototypes was actually boosting real cargo when it had to be destroyed because of a servo problem that was undiscovered during ground testing.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Yes, it would. I would agree that people are held accountable in the aircraft industry, just not the PE. A lot of accountable people we the public never get to meet, or understand what it is their accountable for....It is a game of hide the liability played between lawyers and accountants, vary rarely shown to the public. Only when their is an accident and it goes to court do we see the impact that not having a PE affects the public. It is a very good example to show just how vulnerable the public is to the industry exemption.
What scares me most as a PE is what I don't see in the aircraft industry....Again this leads me to being confortable because the largest part of the trial and error period for aircraft is in the past and other poor souls paid the price of there not being PE's involved. I may pay that price too some day...But I make every effort I can today to ensure that it would not be because of an engineering blunder done by that high school graduate engineer exempt by the industry who doesnt even know the name of his PhD boss......
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Wow! Am I wrong in having the faith I do? Or should I join BobPE's platform. I think you just shot me down
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I will always think that we engineers would be better served licensed, nothing will ever change my mind...I just hope to convince as many engineers along the way to step up...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
"Its about a group of people that missed out on licensure and now want to say that its not really needed, in order to feel good about themselves."
Myself, I could have grandfathered in a while ago but saw no advantage. Now, being near retirement, it's hardly worth it. PE is not something one gets just for the sake of having it. As for lots of other people who took part in this discussion, (sometimes near argument, LOL) I suspect that most are young and for reasons of their own, see no point in attaing PE status. You seen fit later in your career if I'm not mistaken and may have benifited from doing so. It does'nt go for everyone and it certainly is not a duty.
BobPE
Nearing the end of this topic I think, and as in your last reply, glad to see that it is with an amicable demeanor. You almost had me convinced at one point, then I gave my head another shake!
What contraversy can I stir up next?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I suggest the following controversial topic:
"Should There Be Engineering Licensure In The USA?"
This one would be sure to draw in quite a few diverse opinions just like this current thread has done. And I'm not pulling your leg, I'm serious.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Are you kidding? Another 15 rounds with BobPE
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Things that could be discussed include:
a) Should any engineers be licensed?
b) Should all engineers be licensed?
c) Should licensing be only for some disciplines or all?
d) Should licensing be for only some industries or all?
e) Should licensing be federal?
f) Should licensing be individual, corporate or both?
You know how me and BobPE feel about this, but the purpose of the forums is to exchange ideas & opinions for the betterment of all. Or are we all tired of talking about this issue for a while?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I started a pro and con of licensure post over in the where will engineering bein 5 years forum....
It is off to a slow start, but gaining momentum...LOL...
haggis....15 rounds is a walk in the park...LOL
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In the consulting world, it seems, designers are really drafters and engineers are engineers. In the product design world, designers are engineers, engineers are engineers, and drafters are drafters. So if one has only worked in one area, they only see one side and this causes a lot of confusion.
Most arguments on this subject are do to ignorance of engineering in general, not only specific to the engineering "you know". Engineers are those with a degree. Licensed engineers are those engineers that are licensed to perform services for the public. Other engineers, perform services for the private world (other companies).
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
What is your definition of "other engineers?"
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Hope you had a nice July 4th.
I think buzzp means me and my kind....industry exempt.
Haggis
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I wanted to dig into buzzp's comments to see if he was thinking "other engineers" could consult outside of their industry exempt company.....Just a probing question....I find a lot of people are confused when it comes to this exempt gray area....
you take care,
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In Texas I hear it's unlawful to call ones self an engineer unless one is a licensed PE.
I wonder if Casey Jones was commiting a Federal offence by using the title while crossing state lines.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The ignorance comes from those that have only worked in consulting their whole career or only worked under the industrial exemption their whole careers. I have found many consulting types (PEs) who believe that any engineer needs to have a PE to practice engineering, period. This is not the case.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I too worked in both worlds, it should be the case, believe me....That is why i soapbox like I do...If I can get more people to see the light at the end of the licensure tunnel, we all would be better off for the effort....
I do agree though, extremists on both sides do seem to have the most trouble recognizing that we are all engineers in the boat together...I have found many exempt types who believe that no engineer needs to have a license to practice engineering, period. This is not the case either...
Us in the middle need to find the common ground for all to get to....or we will all suffer in some way...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Lets try this tack a bit differently.
You make the statement that all engineered consumer goods should be done so only by registered PE's. This means that everything from the venerable golf ball to a 787 Dreamliner would be covered by your edict.
Now, what benefit is to be gained, other than an increase in the salary of an Engineer in doing so? Will golf balls be any safer? Can you prove that the 787 Dreamliner will be any safer? How about the new Ford 500? Canada makes great fanfare of their registration and strict enforcement, but let me ask the board, what type of manufacturing innovation and efficiency do they have? I spent almost 3 years off and on in Canada, and the regulatory baloney manufacturers went through to remain in business made me swear off ever going back. To be sure, it is a beautiful country, and people there were as intelligent as anywhere else in the world I have been, yet they have to have absured protection laws to remain in business. Is this the type of future you envision for the USA?
Quick and dirty, you are a PE. You have the opportunity to create a better widget, the only rub is it is only marginally safer than your competition. You know if you only added 4 interlocks that would slow the operation and add 15 percent to the cost, you could provide a product that would virtually eliminate the risk to the user.
What do you do?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I would be interested to here about your industrial exempt positions in the Civil engineering field. Specifically, what did you do? I was trying to think of any civil engineering position which would not fall under doing work for the public. I can not think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I took my skills learned there in industry and brought them with me to consulting where I use them every day. I do see the difference in the extreme exempt engineer and the extreme licensed engineer....I like the middle ground, but think that a license is an improvement for ALL engineers...
I am an environmental engineer...i wouldn't know how do design a road if I fell on one....my degree was based on a mechanical engineering program...so I am probably not the best example of a true civil engineer....but that is what I do now...water and wastewater engineering, mostly hydraulics when I am not stuck in the management rut...
I still consult a lot for industry and I love every minute of it. You guys just have to come to grips with these crazy ass schedules you make us conform to!!! Can you do anything about that?????
I do think my industrial experience gives me an edge over my peers...no doubt. And I know that many of you in the exempt world, if licensed, would kick the pants of a lot of the engineers in my business as well as in your own business...
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
That brings up a point of the PE being a general licensure but I am not sure I want a civil engineer designing electrical circuits. Another grey area the boards need to address. It is not necessary to discuss this here.
As far as the schedules, the quicker the better of course and we like to haggle contractors/engineers because we can...LOL. Downtime is money! Thats probably really what the issue is.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The UK employs a philosophy called ALARP in many pieces of safety legislation. ALARP stands for "As Low As Reasonably Practicable". I think the situation you describe could be dealt with under this philosophy, and deciding what consitutes 'reasonable' requires a degree of engineering judgement.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I guess I just dont see where the current laws can be improved unless we denegrate some other facet of our lives ( at least in the US )
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
ALARP still applies. The designers of the towers probably didn't expect laden airliners to be flown under full power into the towers. Next time the terrorists might have a nuke. Would designing for that be 'reasonable'? The next twin towers would be end up being a fortified bunker like Cheyenne Mountain if the designers intent was to make them impossible to damage. I've never yet had the luxury of designing a project to a "...no matter the cost." standard.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Engineers and builders, I would say ALL, follow ALARP philosophy to stay in business because all owners WANT to spend less. Very rarely does an owner request something designed for more than the code requirements even though the added cost may result in added benefit/comfort/etc.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Bob
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Wayyyyy back on June 28th you wrote:
"Wisconsin has provisions for non-degreed PE's Sounds like haggis has more than enough exsperience. I have a friend who teaches a course to prepare non-degreed designers and managers for the exam. Should I sign you up, haggis?"
This is something that I may be interested in. Would you be so kind as to tell me more about this?
Thanks in advance.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I would highly encourage all "Hardknock U." grads to look up the requirements in your own state. Attaining PE status could be especially rewarding and put many questions regarding validity of one's experience to rest.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
sorry.
I have a degree in engineering, engineer things daily, & have passed the FE. I am NOT an engineer. period. I'll get over it. You should too.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
EddyC
To the best of my knowledge, eer , in some cases was simply a suffix to describe ones profession.
For instance, in the UK, the locomotive was commonly referred to as the engine and the man who operated this piece of equipment would be the engineer. Oddly enough however, this sees to be US terminology as in the UK he was called a train driver.
The man who holds an auction….auctioneer
The man who drove a chariot……charioteer
Al Capone………………………..racketeer
So our profession has laid claim to the word engineer although most of us in the profession actually have nothing to do with engines of any sort.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Very interesting. And you bring up another point: How did we design type folks get to be called "engineers"?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Main Entry: en·gine
Pronunciation: 'en-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English engin, from Middle French, from Latin ingenium natural disposition, talent, from in- + gignere to beget -- more at KIN
1 obsolete a : INGENUITY b : evil contrivance : WILE
2 : something used to effect a purpose : AGENT, INSTRUMENT <mournful and terrible engine of horror and of crime -- E. A. Poe>
3 a : a mechanical tool: as (1) : an instrument or machine of war (2) obsolete : a torture implement b : MACHINERY c : any of various mechanical appliances -- often used in combination <fire engine>
4 : a machine for converting any of various forms of energy into mechanical force and motion; also : a mechanism or object that serves as an energy source <black holes may be the engines for quasars>
5 : a railroad locomotive
AND
Main Entry: en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier to contrive, from engin
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an appara
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
EddyC
I believe it goes back thousands of years and was derived from the word ingenious or the latin inginium and was adopted as a title for anyone, designers and builders alike who exhibited exceptional skills and craftsmanship in their respective trades.
In the later industrial years, engineer became a widely used title for numerous trades throughout the engineering community as we know it and as you are aware, is still widely used, some say loosly used in the UK, Australia, South Africa and various other areas.
Even various dictionaries are in conflict as to the word's definition and usage. Some say that it can mean "to contrive" or "scheme" as in "he engineered that disaster or assasination plot".
The argument as to who can lawfully use the title will never die and I still disagree with Texas and others who have made it unlawfull to use the word unless you are licensed to perform some fuction in the various fields. Making more difinitive terms unlawfull yes, like "Licensed Structural Engineer - State of Texas" but not one word and thus stripping Casey Jones of his title. My God, he was one of my heroes and he turns out to be an imposter, a misleader of the travelling public!!. Perry Mason would likely have declined the case in fear of indictment for "engineering" a defense strategy that would allow Casey to retain his status as the railroad icon he was
I'm afraid my thread has been reduced to half baked humour...but it's fun.
Haggis
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Actually, I would say that you can. I think there's a practical definition of engineering, and a legal definition. I found this somewhere on one of the other Forums. Note the chronological progression.
Sample definitions of Engineering
A. M. Wellington (1887)
It would be well if engineering were less generally thought of . . . as the art of constructing. In a certain important sense it is rather the art of not constructing . . . of doing that well with one dollar which any bungler can do with two after a fashion.
S. E. Lindsay (1920)
Engineering is the practice of safe and economic application of the scientific laws governing the forces and materials of nature by means of organization, design, and construction, for the general benefit of mankind.
J. A. L. Waddell, Frank W. Skinner, Wessman (1933)
Engineering is the science and art of efficient dealing with materials and forces . . . it involves the most economic design and execution . . . assuring, when properly performed, the most advantageous combination of accuracy, safety, durability, speed, simplicity, efficiency, and economy possible for the conditions of design and service.
Vanevar Bush (1939)
Engineering. . . in a broad sense. . . is applying science in an economic manner to the needs of mankind.
T. J. Hoover and J. C. L. Fish (1941)
Engineering is the professional and systematic application of science to the efficient utilization of natural resources to produce wealth.
L. M. K. Boelter (1957)
Engineers participate in the activities which make the resources of nature available in a form beneficial to man and provide systems which will perform optimally and economically.
John C. Calhoun, Jr. (1963)
It is the engineer's responsibility to be aware of social needs and to decide how the laws of science can be best adapted through engineering works to fulfill those needs.
The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (1982)
Engineering is the profession in which a knowledge of the mathematical and natural sciences, gained by study, experience, and practice, is applied with judgment to develop ways to utilize, economically, the materials and forces of nature for the benefit of mankind.
A Typical Legal Definition of Engineering
"Professional engineer", within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.
The Profession's Definition of an Engineer
A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the solution of problems and to assume personal responsibility for the development and application of engineering science and techniques especially in research, designing, manufacturing, superintending, and managing. An engineer is a person qualified by aptitude, education, and experience to perform engineering functions.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I can only assume that was a rhetorical question since that is clearly what I previously stated and you subsequently agreed with.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I worked in the aircraft industry for most of my adult life. I can assure you when GE designs an engine, it goes through plenty of analysis before being tested (disclaimer: never been employed by GE). Same goes for all components long before they're assembled to form an aircraft. Where I worked, there wasn't one PE though all were degreed engineers. I made many design improvements (some inovative) to the product line I delt with and most are perfoming well on aircraft around the world. Those that aren't were revised or replaced.
What I get from BobPE's posts is; if a PE had put his stamp on everything ever made we wouldn't have any plane crashes, building colapses, product recalls. That presumption is totally absurd. How many products are successful. Not market successes, but durable, reliable and safe products used everyday and had no PE involvement whatsoever. I'm not against licensing but it is not the cure all as BobPE would have you think. If you need a system to regulate engineering, pattern it like the auto repair industry. Certify for a given area of engineering. Show competency in the area you're seeking license in (even the FAA requires A&P candidates to perform hands-on tasks and are evaluated over-the-shoulder). Weed out the incompitants, educated or otherwise.
As for me, I'm happy with designer. I don't care about having some title telling me what I know I can or can't do. I know what I can do whether its designing and building a car, a house or a piece of equipment with my own hands. At this point in my life I have no desire to go back to school to get an engineering degree. This was not intended as a BobPE-bashing post but I saw flaws in his thinking even though his intentions are quite noble. I understand the need for some sort of regulation. I think more needs done to standardize job titles/descriptions from the engineering side and then passed down through trade resources to employers.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Isn't that what a P.E. does?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You really can't compare the aerospace industry to the rest of engineering. Very few engineered products are subject to the certification testing that aerospace products are. Think about the other extreme in the world of engineering, namely the AEC field. In this arena the companies are paper entities with few assets. Companies would fold up and reorganize under another name with the same folks doing the same work in the same way, if they got into trouble. Contractors do this routinely. This is why engineering licensing was created, to make the PEOPLE doing the work responsible rather than a faceless entity. Society did this in order to make folks do the right thing. The way it is now, many companies have the ability to do shoddy engineering and then avoid disciplinary action by being under the corporate law umbrella.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I admit I don't know much about the PE process but it doesn't seem to be doing a very good job from my point of view. My point being if it isn't doing the job, change it. Hence the last 2 lines in my last post.
EddyC,
Point taken.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I would recommend that you read everything prior to you comment.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
“…but when does experience and accomplishments in a selected field o0f expertise trump a degree?”
I think you have to compare apples to apples. If you and another person were looking for a new job and the other has the same experience and accomplishments as you and have a degree to back up the theoretical side, I would guess the other person would get the job.
“If the title doesn't matter, then why is it that a kid with a fresh 4 year degree in engineering can be allowed to start-up [an] engineering company with no experience.”
This can not happen with out a PE licenses, but that person can be a consultant in the ME field to do heat transfer and vibration analysis. You can start up your own company as a consultant, just as long you have a disclaimer that you are not responsible for your design and not use the word “engineer” in any context that you are a PE.
Rcass,
“I would be so bold and say I could do a better job in some areas than Bobpe.”
Yes that may be true, but at the end of the day the PE is responsible for your work (if you were working under him) and his. You may be a better draftsmen or designer, but if the PE does not do the analysis to justify the design, the design will stay on paper.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In California, it matters not whether you disclaim or not; if you are offering services to other than those companies that claim industrial exemption, you would be in violation of the PE act in California.
TTFN
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I do read quite well and I have read the responses that matter and make sence, thank you.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The PE process is a legal method of determining who has achieved MINIMUM competency as an engineer. The PE is about having VERIFIED credentials. You may indeed be a very good designer, engineer, etc. But how am I or any other fellow human being supposed to know that? How do I know if all your claims of competence are legit? Am I supposed to do some kind of formal investigation to determine your competence? What if you make a mistake due to negligence? If you are not a PE, you will be allowed to continue in your negligence. You work in the aerospace industry. You know full well that new aircraft are subject to certification testing. The PE process is a certification process for engineers. Why would we not want this process?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
The problem isn't that they are not available, the problem is you choose not to take them. Nothing is keeping you from your degree but you. You have evaluated your priorities and choosen to invest your time and energy in your business, probably rightly so. However, this was your choice. The system isn't stacked against you, it is the same for everyone else on this forum. If the recognition a degree brings is what you seek then finish your degree. Sure other areas of your professional life might suffer, but it is YOU who must decide if it is worth it. However, if you have already decided it is not worth the time and energy to finish, please remove that chip from your shoulder.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
True, but you can compare aerospace to automotive. Since automotive is one of the biggest industry exempt fields of engineering, it is an important point.
Both aerospace and automotive rely on testing prototypes (or increasingly, models or simulations or calculations) to meet federally defined performance standards.
Therefore, our arbiter is not, have we applied the appropriate codes in an intelligent and sufficient fashion? Which is what the PE world is rather biased towards.
Instead one of the the questions we have to satisfy is: when the real thing gets tested against this performance criterion, will it pass? And have we considered sufficient failure criterion? Since not all customer usage is enshrined in the federal codes (by a long chalk).
I think that is quite a different philosophy, and explains many of our (PE vs IE) disagreements.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
You are most likely highly qualified to do the work that you do. But you must PROVE it and prove it in a legally defined way. The PE is that way. If you truly do have the skills that you claim you do and the experience that you claim you do, you can also pass the PE exam. Until you do this you haven't certified your abilities. We don't let Boeing or Airbus get out of certifying aircraft based upon the extensive experience that both have, do we? Lets remember that the Industrial Exemption applies to industry. It doesn't give industry the right to arbitarily assign the "engineer" title to whom it sees fit.
Greg,
You are absolutely correct that both the aerospace and automotive industries certify their products, thereby proving that they function as designed. This is precisely why Industry has been allowed to have & keep their exemption from utilizing PEs. But don't count on Industry keeping their high standards as time goes by. Do to the insatiable greed on the part of industry leaders, these high standards will take a plunge.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
A chip on my shoulder? There is none. I jus think that it is very short sighted by all industries to dismiss quality or knowledge due to a piece of paper. I have never lost a contract due to not having a degree but the reliance of one in lue of an established history of performance which can be toatly documented is bunk. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any contract that I have lost. In the last 9 years, my customers have increased in numbers with the complexity of the jobs increasing enormusly. My company success has to do with the fact that the customer knows the quality that they are getting is hard to find especially for numerous, short-run production and that they can benefit from our ability to pull from a variety of diciplines, not because we have degrees in engineering.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Great! It sounds like you don't need an engineering degree. It also sounds like your the only one with an issue about a four year degree, not your clients. So what exactly is your point about establishing your credientials? From what you say, the system is working just fine for you.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I had posed this question to the state licensing board: How can a degreed inividual with four years experience and a PE sign-off on plans involoving technology/materials that they are remotely familiar with without the proper experience? Under the current regulations, they can, and don't think for one minute that a young, hungry engineer when pressed by his/her superiors will not cave and sign-off on something that they are not completely familiar with. It happens so much that I can fill volumes with examples and it is not just in aviation. This also, will have an effect to the many small, but very good, machine shop around the country. It should be no suprise that all of us who own machine shops do not make it a practice to employ all degreed engineers. For example, if someone comes into my shop with a sketch on a napkin of an idea and I select the materials, design it, machine it, test it, the customer likes it, orders a truck load, and implements it on their product, who then has done the engineering. Some on the board of licensing say that it was the machine shop, while others say that it was the person with the idea. This example, although a little more crude( I only had one napkin drawing this year)is a reality for a lot of machine shops. This is a grey area that no one can give a difinitive answer.
EddyC,
By the way, the end product, if it is an aircraft part, is ALWAYS extensively test flown by ME prior to production so I do know something about the certification of aircraft and aircraft parts. Why not let an individual take the PE test if he or she feels that they can pass it? This is where documented, individual experience should be accepted. Grandfathering used to be a common practice to the state licensing boards up tp 1988 in the states that I have lived in. Why not have a stringent requirement for field experience in obtaining a PE?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Many states do accept experience in lieu of education. Some don't because verification is too difficult. The PE process does not have only 1 accepted method of licensure qualification. There are several methods. Look into it yourself. But if you're looking to waive the examination, that may or may not be possible. It all depends upon the state in question. Go before the state board. The board has engineers on staff. It is their job to determine who has met the criteria for licensure. You can't expect licensure to be granted to you if you don't bother to go through the formal process. Whether you like it or not, the state governments are involved in the regulation of engineering. Why not try to comply with their rules? Or petition to change them if they are not to your liking.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Here in Kentucky, the board has a requirement of an ABET accredited college degree plus the four years. I have no problem showing ability or knowledge through tests but the fact that they will not recognize ANY experience ( field experience and my 3.5 years from Georgia Tech) without the degree is a bogus regulation. They told me that they are not interested in hearing any case if those requirements have not been met. Do you know of the staes that except experience in lue of a degree?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I don't know exactly which states will substitute experience for education, but I have heard informally that some will. I suggest that you go to www.ncees.org and click on Licensing Boards. You will probably have to search all the states yourself. If I find out, I'll let you know. I'd love to see someone with your background become a PE. The engineering community needs more folks from industry to become PEs. It would be good for all of us.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I took a quick look. For those with no college education, New York wants 12 years of engineering experience. I'm sure that other states are similar.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Your question to the liscensing board is a matter of ethics and I fail to see how it is relevant to your arguement about degrees and credientals. To me it is not unlike a debate about who may call themselves a doctor and then start to complain about the possibility of a heart surgeon performing brain surgery. What?
Please advise.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
It is not a matter of ethics. The analogy of heart and brain surgery I don't get. What I do get is the fact that in today's world there is an increasing amount of "book-smart" people flooding the market place. If you understand the way that learning is achieved- 1-rote, 2-understanding, 3-application, 4-corolation, then you would agree with me that in todays world the majority of people with advanced degrees stop somewhere between 2 and 3. This is where my problem starts when it comes to the level that the government sees more value in a degreed individual and no value in an experienced individual. Education can be had in both the real world AND a college. In this very lawsuit crazy world, anybody could go and file a suit against people like myself and say that we are practicing engineering without a license. The most increadable irony in all of this is that 4 days ago I was asked to participate in a 5 day lecture on the manufacturing and engineering aspects of aerospace products and materials at the university mechanical engineering department, with PAY !!!! All I am saying is that if a individual has the experience and can pass any and all test to obtain a PE if for nothing else to comply with the state regulations, then why not let it be so? I am sure that if you apply this to becoming a brain surgeon, I am quite sure that very few people, other than those who are around it all day long, could actually pass the tests. I just proved my point today. We made a hydraulic valve assembly for a landing gear system and asked an long time experienced electrical engineer, a PE, if he would sign the plans for us. He declined. A six year mechanical engineer was asked the same thing, 2 years with a PE, and he said YES. He also new nothing about what and how it worked but he said that he trusted that the materials used were accurate. Point made.
EddyC,
Thanks for the insight. I appreciate the kind words but I am really nothing special. There are so many great minds out there but they get pushed aside by bogus "one size fits all" type of regulations. I just see this bowing down by the licensing boards to a degree and only a degree to determine who can and who cannot perform as an engineer without reviewing the background experience as a troubling trend. I will admit that the current sitution has worked very well for me both professionally and finacially. However, if this trend is not modified, then a lot of good and talented people will be out of the mix that makes the "sysytem" work. I was just told today that regulations for land surveyors in Kentucky will be going through an overhaul which will require them to have a degree with no grandfathering! Sad isn't it?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If each state PE board has differing admission standards, how can we be sure to have a qualified PE come from the test any more than we can be sure one is qualified from an ABET degree?
Sounds to me like we need a nationwide or worldwide standard established.........
There, that ought to give me time to be taking a dirt nap before it is established.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Try the U of Alabama or North Dakota. They have ABET eng degrees via distance. I am in agreement about it being hard to go to school once you start to work but I know you can do it. I stared back to school at 40 and am now 51 and getting close to done. Try PPI2PASS.com for state board lic info. I am taking my PE by experince only so I know that can be done also. Hope this helps
John
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Re: 21 Jul 17:43 post. Did I understand you correctly to say that you asked an electrical engineer to sign and seal a hydraulic assembly, and then found a mechanical engineer who knew nothing of the design but signed and sealed it anyway? Point made indeed, that sounds like a serious breach of ethics, unless I understood your paragraph incorrectly. Is my understanding correct?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Re: 21 Jul 17:43
I agree with UcfSE that it is a matter of ethics, like I previously stated (contrary to your first sentence). And I still fail to see how the point you were trying to make is relevant to the previous discussion about degrees and credentials (changing the subject?).
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I have contacted the U of Alabama and ND but one of the requirements are that I can be at one of their other campuses and they have video links and taped sessions only at their other sites. I am still pluggin' away though.
UcfSE,
Youd did understand correctly, however, the details were that I did not need a sign-off due to the fact that we were producing the part for a customer per their own design. I did this just to prove my point to two other guys that work for me that are in the same boat, and to prove to that "newbie" that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does and that he should be strung-up and beaten with a regulation book and his deploma. As punishment, (I agreed to not make it known to his boss, a friend of mine since childhood), he has to spend as much time as needed in my shop until he knows all the processes and reasons that go into the designing, building, and testing of a hydraulic assembly. It is my hope that kid will learn something useful that he wasn't able to get from a book.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Try these sites. They are the sites for the distance programs. At Alabama you need to talk to them about the program and how it would help you. I looked in to it. The problem is four of the eng school classes have labs. They had no problem with any other classes. If you have had these at GT you should be able to finish at UA. Otherwise you have to make plans with them on how to do the labs sections of the class. You can take the class part w/o a problem. Added bonus is that the video students are considered in state. ND is $$$$ per hour. What they do for the lab classes is have a couple of days in the summer that you go and have a 'Lab a thon'. I have looked in to this a lot because I have been going for 12 years part time and have spent of time finding the CPM for the working parental student. Any more q's, give me a shout.
http://www.conted.und.edu/ddp/dedp/ and http:/
John
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
designer and engineer the level of mathematical
knowledge?
An engineer can create a mathematical model of a
process or device and therefore PREDICT the results
of different constructions without having to actually
make and test things. I know there are gillions of
stories about how the smart engineer with their
formulas goofed up the project. But what you do not
hear about are the things done correctly in much less
time than simple trial and error could produce.
So degreed or not the person who can see things in
terms of Calculus and other higher math concepts
is an engineer.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
My thoughts exactly. But, when it comes down to the state government recognition of knowlege and skill to be able to call yourself an engineer, most states only want to see that degree, regardless of prior experience. You hit the nail right on the head.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
IMO, I don't care about the title. The degree does make a difference. I do not think a PE is required for all engineering, only for those who work with government projects such as nuclear, civil or whatever is req'd to be signed off by the engineer. I have worked with PE's where engineers with BS's are just as capable or better than the PE's.
Just my 2 cents.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I agree with you about finding someone who is competent enough for the job. I think that part of the reason that you are seeing people as being lazy or that they don't care is, in my opinion, that most people that advance their knowlegde either by getting a degree or by skill training are becoming very narrow toward a very small portion in their field of choice. Just like when I was a kid, we had a family doctor that seemed to know everything and backed-up that observation by his ability to fix any ailment that came along. Those days are gone in favor of the "specialist" in all fields, with the irony being that I haven't see any increase in quality from skills to actual knowledge to the ability to get a once simple job done in reasonable time frame at a good price! It has been my experience, and it seems like you have the same, that there is less of a need for the "specialist". The ability to correlate a variety of skills and knowlegde for a particular job by an individual is where we need to be headed regardless of the type of certificate held. When we,(engineers, designers, machinist, mechanics, etc.)narrow our focus we do our customers and society a great diservice. Advancing our knowlegde is a very horable and responsible action as professionals and should be promoted, encouraged, and be a continuing part of our professional developement. It should not be needed to satisfy government agencies that close their doors on very skilled and knowledgable people. This only promotes the "book-smart specialist". Being especially good in a specific dicipline is good provided you can still function mentally and physically at the other requirement in your field. In my shop we have 2 very good, and expesive, CNC machining centers. Although they are superior in technology to my 1978 Bridgeport, it isn't the choice for most jobs. And so it is with people, which is why a person with a BS, Masters, or Phd., may not always be the right tool for all jobs.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
A star for you
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Correct me if I am wrong, but, don't the doctors call what they do a practice? And don't we all pride ourselves on the fact that we can predict with a very high level of accuracy the outcome of the intended project before we start? If WE practiced our trades then WE would be out of business! Practicing for us was done during the labs in school or during R&D research for the companies that we work for. I don't think that malpractice lawsuits are too numerous in the engineering world. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. I can tell you on fact...more people die due to doctors every year than by engineers who screw-up. Just a thought.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
I really have difficulty following your thought pattern. To begin with I, again, don't see what doctors happen to call their business has to do with the current discussion. Do you really believe that doctors are practicing on patients, with no idea of the outcome?
Doctor1: hey Bob, give him this and see what happens!
Doctor2: O.K.!
That aside, you then say that we as engineers and designers got all of our practicing done in school (regardless of the fact that a degreed engineer only has 1/2 that of a doctor) and for the COMPANIES that we work for; right after you said that if we practiced our trades then we would be out of business (?!) How can you practice at a company that would be out of business if you do? Also, your cursade to recognize those without degrees would imply that most of the training would be on the job. No? Isn't it practicing if you don't know what you are doing? If you have no degree and no experience how would you predict with ANY accuracy what would happen?
Finally, your comment about more people dying from doctors is misleading and irrelavent. Apples and Oranges. Why not say more people die in cars and planes every year than from doctors. Engineers design those right?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
It seems that you have chip on your shoulder or you feel threatened by accomplished people that don't have a degree. Wasn't it you how brought up the tumor removal by a specialst? I was just making a comparison when you brought up the tumor removal and if you were to ask any doctor that is honest they would tell you that they CANNOT predict the outcome of every time. That is one of the misteries of the human body. As a designer, engineer, machinist, whatever...we have the luxury of having a lot more known than unknown when taking on a project if you just think about materials alone! That aside, you are grossly wrong by saying that I said that engineers and designers got all of our practicing done in school. Read the last post a little more carefully and you would note that I said that our practicing was done in the labs in school OR DURING R&D FOR OUR COMPANIES! READ THE POST BEFORE YOU COMMENT! By the way, I wish not to get into a statistical argument because if I were to say that a cue ball on a pool table was white you would tell me that it is black. My only wish for you is that you learn to respect and acknowledge the the accomplishment of all individuals without predjudice toward their degrees or certifications. Two final comments: 1- Being in aviation, I have the knowledge to say that most aircraft accidents are not because of poor engineering. We aviation people take a ot of pride in that! 2- I can accurately predict the performance of a doctors tools because they were designed by a designer, verified and refined by an engineer, and given to a machinist or some craftsman to build. YEAH FOR US!
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Excellent point! I just think that there are a lot of qualified people that can be licensed but without a standard for the whole country the licensing criteria is very arbitrary. The last handful of post show the differences from state to state. I think that more skilled Americans can fill the jobs that a third world engineer fills now if the standards were to allow a highly trained and skilled person with years of experience take the required tests.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
On a related topic, I often hear politicians talk about the need to graduate more students with engineering degrees to compete with other countries where over 30% of grads are engineers. Why do we need to graduate more engineers when we can't fully employ the existing population?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Our company is outsourcing more design to India and mfg to China, which IMO will eventually "kill" the company.
We have a very specialized product and our new mngmt is hiring "new" engineers off the street and put to work without proper training.
Because of this, quality is poor and our competition is taking over some of our customers.
Getting a BS in Engineering is getting too easy to come by and alot of companies only require it as a min. To help stay ahead of other countries, maybe only a PE should be req'd. It will help "weed out" incompetent engineers.
I had mentioned in other threads, I feel either our engineering schools need a overhaul or our government needs to step back and take a look at where our future mfg/design is headed. I don't know.
sorry, I'm rambling, it is a big concern of mine.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
If you care about the product you produce most educational shortcomings can be overcome by your willingness to learn. I would far rather work with someone who has to ask many questions but is willing to ask than the cowboy who thinks he knows everything because he has a degree.
Thanks
SC
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
earlier you stated :
"The degree does make a difference. I do not think a PE is required for all engineering, only for those who work with government projects such as nuclear, civil or whatever is req'd to be signed off by the engineer. I have worked with PE's where engineers with BS's are just as capable or better than the PE's."
and now:
"Getting a BS in Engineering is getting too easy to come by and alot of companies only require it as a min. To help stay ahead of other countries, maybe only a PE should be req'd. It will help "weed out" incompetent engineers."
Are we getting you on the P.E. band wagon? Speedy is invited to! :)
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
In response to getting me on the PE band wagon way of thinking, Aint gonna happen! I enjoy being a non-"pedegree" success. If the opprotunity to take the tests to become a PE ever came around for people like me, I would gladly take the tests, but it would not change the way I do things. I mean, why not add one more to the 16 other professional and Federal licenses I currently hold. The only thing that it would show is the fact that I knew what I was doing and talking about all these years to the government by passing "THE" test. My customers, ironically the government in some cases, indicate that they could really care less about a PE license. Wouldn't make me any smarter now, would it?
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
Smarter? No it won't. I don't disagree with you that you are probably an expert in your field. And I don't disagree that you could probably pass the test. I understand what point you are trying to make. You wish that you would get the same much earned respect as someone with a degree and equal experience.
But surely you understand society's need to establish a measurable way to gauge one's techincal ability. This does not take away from your accomplishments. However if you refuse to participate in the process I don't see how you can complain. If these tests would be easy why not take them. I understand that finishing your final semester of school would be required and also inconvient but surely the material would be easy for you.
I'm a big fan of taking responsiblity for your actions good or bad. Everything is your choice. You don't HAVE to finish your degree and to become a P.E. You CHOOSE to because you want what it brings. Sitting around and waiting for the system to change until it is convient for you will get you no where fast. If you choose not to persue it fine, but don't complain. If you choose to try and change the system fine, I wish you luck. Finishing your degree and getting a P.E. is fine too. I don't disagree with you on a core level, just the mannor you present it.
You can be the smartest one in the class, but if you don't take the final, you don't get credit for the class.
RE: Titles: Engineer vs. Designer
bioengr82,
Probably not. The type of work I do does not require a PE and probably never will. I do not think a PE is neccessary to be an Engineer except under certain circumstances I had mentioned before. But, in the future, I think making it more difficult to become an engineer (requiring a PE license) will weed out incompetent engineers. I don't see this happening for a couple generations.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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