How bad is it in the UK?
How bad is it in the UK?
(OP)
From here:
http:/ /news.ft.c om/cms/s/9 f931654-d1 6f-11d9-9c 1d-00000e2 511c8.html
"A top engineering scholarship is struggling to attract applicants in the latest example of the severe difficulties faced by industry in its attempts to reduce skill shortages.
The Institution of Mechanical Engineers has extended until the end of next month the deadline to apply for 10 Whitworth Scholar awards, worth £3,500 a year, to cover the cost of studying for a degree-level engineering course.
Applications for the scholarships had been due to close today but this was extended after only 10 people applied. This compares with about 120 applicants in the mid 1990s."
Are things really this bad in the UK, or is this just an obscure set of scholarships which nobody knew about?
What caused the huge drop in applicants over the past decade?
Is it lack of jobs, low pay, low prestige, competition from cheaper foreign workers, or something else?
Britain was the workshop of the world in the 19th century. America held that title for most of the 20th century.
I'm an American and I'm wondering if the US is next in line for deindustrialization.
http:/
"A top engineering scholarship is struggling to attract applicants in the latest example of the severe difficulties faced by industry in its attempts to reduce skill shortages.
The Institution of Mechanical Engineers has extended until the end of next month the deadline to apply for 10 Whitworth Scholar awards, worth £3,500 a year, to cover the cost of studying for a degree-level engineering course.
Applications for the scholarships had been due to close today but this was extended after only 10 people applied. This compares with about 120 applicants in the mid 1990s."
Are things really this bad in the UK, or is this just an obscure set of scholarships which nobody knew about?
What caused the huge drop in applicants over the past decade?
Is it lack of jobs, low pay, low prestige, competition from cheaper foreign workers, or something else?
Britain was the workshop of the world in the 19th century. America held that title for most of the 20th century.
I'm an American and I'm wondering if the US is next in line for deindustrialization.





RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Lack of jobs - I would say no because it is easy to find a job with the title of engineer although it is most likely not an ENGINEERING job.
Low Pay - YES - I was told at more than one job interview that the starting wage for new grad engineers is less then 20,000 pounds. The starting wage in Canada is usually over $50,000. Even with the conversion that is terribly low. Never mind the crazy cost of living difference.
Low Prestige - If you tell someone you are a mechanical engineer they would laugh at you and call you a grease monkey and ask you to fix their car.
Foreign Workers - UK is full of foreign workers and I can't see it getting better with the EU including more and more poorer countries. I was a foreign worker working an engineering job there.
Something else - Everyone in the UK is going into business schools and if they want to do something technical it is IT. IT is also a joke in the UK it means data entry or working the phones.
Is America next: I think it a bit controversial but I would partially agree with many that would suggest that the American empire has peaked and is on its way down.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
You have saved me recording my thoughts. A star for you.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
But ~£20,000 as a graduate starting salary for an engineer is more than most other graduate starting salaries. Unemployment for engineering graduates is much lower than for say, history graduates. While manufacturing may be down (but not out- the UK is making more cars now than at any time over the last 30 years), there are large multinational engineering firms doing work globally out of the UK: Bechtel, KBR, Kvearner... High technology sports cars are still made in the UK (TVR, Noble, etc) and global motor racing continue to be based along the M4 corridor... The North Sea oil industry is begging for people to move to Aberdeen and earn very good salaries(so that everyone can buy an Audi TT it seems). Who knows, there might be a new round of building nuclear power stations soon!
I reckon the real reason for the low take up of these scolarships is what Greg has suggested: lack of publicity. Very few people in the street know that the Engineering Institutes exist, let alone what the IMechE is. Let face it 120 applicants in the 90s is derisory. If they'd sent a flyer to every secondary school in the UK, they'd have been deluged with applicants....or given a pile of forms to each University Mech Eng department in the UK to be sent out with every prospectus...
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I agree. Lack of communication is probably the dominant issue here. However, it is a symptom of a much wider problem.
The UK government has a "target" of "Enabling half of all young people to attend university."
[http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php?id=3275 - Interestingly, it took me a while to find a reference to this policy. I searched the Department for Education and Skills website and the The Office of the Prime Minister website without turning anything up. I eventually found the reference on The Labour Party website about 4 levels down from the homepage at the bottom of the list (!) and in the "Young People" section, not the "Education" section. As Douglas Adams wrote, "It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.".]
You cannot deny that the government is well on the way to achieving this aim. The number of university graduates is indeed rising steadily.
Two obvious consequences
1) More graduates means lower graduate salaries (simple supply and demand).
2) Either education standards must rise to maintain the quality of graduates, or the quality of graduates must fall.
Engineering in the UK is still struggling to come to terms with the long decline of the manufacturing base (Of course we are not alone in this and I have no argument with industries which out-source manufacturing beacuase it is cheaper) so there is little money available for either innovation or graduate salaries which compounds the problem of over-supply.
The standards issue is slightly more complex. The answer to point 2 is of course that education standards are falling. This is (understandably) denied by the government despite what "everone else" (i.e. employers and anyone who stops to think about it for a few seconds) thinks. This implies that standards must be "recalibrated" from the bottom upwards.
The chain goes something like this:
1) The current educational trend (a faint legacy of the "all must have prizes" anti-meritocratic thinking of the 1970's) is to move away from fact-based learning of traditional subjects to a much broader curriculum which is spread more thinly with the emphasis placed on qualitative study. This first shows itself at the secondary education stage: Year 7 (~11 years of age)
2) There are of course some subjects where even the most zealous educational reformer cannot remove all traces of fact-based learning, such as maths and sciences. This means that after 3 years of this form of study, pupils can readily divide the curriculum into "easy" and "hard" subjects.
3) In years 9 and 10 (Age 14-16) pupils chose which subjects to study to GCSE level. However, there are core subjects which they MUST study (including maths and sciences). Now beacuse these are "hard" subjects where fact-based learning is still essential, the scope of the curriculum in these areas must be reduced. If this was not the case, then the exam results would not be seen to be improving and that is not what the government wants. Every August, when the results are published, we see a plethora of media articles announcing an increased GCSE pass rate and (usually) an equal number of editorials explaining why this is not necessarily a good thing. The following day, the media reports are always the same with the govenment saying "Your silly comments are putting-down the achievements of pupils".
4) For those who continue their full-time education into years 12 and 13 (16 to 19 years old) and study for AS and A2 examinations, the GCSE pattern is repeated. This time however, the number of subjects studied by individual pupils is again reduced but this time maths and sciences are not mandatory and therefore unsurprisingly not popular choices. The media arguments about pass rates are repeated again (in fact the AS and A2 results are published 1 week before the GCSEs but the media stories are identical, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V!).
5) [optional - don't read this if you have more fun things to do, like emptying the sceptic tank for example] The pass rate issue is actually getting rather comically out of hand. So many students are achieving A grades either through better educational performance (the government's view) or downturn in standards (everyone else's view) that a new top grade of A* has been introduced to differentiate between the highest performing pupils! BUT THIS IS STILL NOT ENOUGH TO DISTINGUISH THEM! The next wave of summer media stories always concerns student x who studied at state-funded school y in regional town z who's application to study (sorry, "read") law at Toffnose College, Oxbridge has been turned down despite the fact that he or she achieved 5 A2 passes at grade A* (the "normal" number of A2 subjects taken is 3). The university responds to the media article by saying "Yes, but we only have 80 places available for people to study law and we had 800 applicants, 150 of which got 5 A* A2 grades [these numbers are not hyperbole despite my sarcastic tone!]. We gave each one a personal interview to select the best 80. Pupil x did not perform as well, in our opinion, as other applicants.". The media go away and think about this for a while and come back with "Ah, of those 80 you chose, 70% came from a privately funded education background. Surely this is just another example of the establishment old boys network?". The university responds "But 60% of the original applicants came from a privately funded education and they performed better at interview too.". Then the government chimes in "But what about the other 10%? The media are right. You are discriminating against state educated pupils. If you don't sort this out we will cut your funding. We've got our eye on you.". Lo and behold, this year we have the first reports appearing that now students from privately funded education are now apparently being "discriminated against" by univerity admissions policies.
6) [back to the real point] The practical upshot of all this is that there are fewer people studying maths, physics and chemistry at age 16-19 and (due to falling standards) those that do are not as well educated in these areas as they would have been in previous years. Therefore, fewer of them go on to study engineering at university. University education and admissions standards have not dropped (with some exceptions and at least not to the same degree as those in secondary education).
***** RANT WARNING ALL CLEAR *****
M
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Dr Michael F Platten
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
'sceptic tank' - a vessel for containing sceptics? An armoured vehicle driven by a unconvinced person??
DrillerNic,
The oil industry isn't crying out that hard. It rarely advertises anywhere but in its own niche press, and the few jobs that are advertised in the wider job market require many years of specific O&G experience. There are many talented and well-qualified people in the allied industries such as powergen and petrochemicals with directly transferrable skills who never get to interview because they are screened out by the HR departments of these companies who are 'crying out'. Either the need ain't there, or the HR staff aren't doing their job very well.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
M
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Dr Michael F Platten
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
David
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I'd have applauded the government's 50% target, if it had been 50% in full time tertiary education rather than university....ie we want people to go to FE College and become a joiner just as much as we want people to go to Oxbridge and do Sanscrit. So we have lots of people, not really suited for acdemic study doing strange degrees that don't really go anywhere. (By this I don't mean the usual 'micky mouse' degrees like Golf Course Design that are usually mentioned, but all those Media Studies, Film Studies, Manufacturing Design type courses.
Sadly, the UK is still very class (or snob if you prefer) driven, and everybody wants their little darling to go to university rather than an FE College. Look at the outrage in the middle brow papers at the amounts a tradesman is supposed to be able to earn- outrage generated largely because "It's not right that he, a plumber, should be earning more than me!" Look at the scramble of the Polytechnics to rename themselves universities a decade ago!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
As far as polytechnics are concerned, I believe it was Thatcher who decided to alter their names to Universities, thereby instantly increasing the number of people who attended Universities. Undoubtedly a master stroke.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3506905.stm
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Dr Michael F Platten
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
You see this is the type of thing I'm talking about. Engineers should be making more then most other graduate starting salaries! In Canada engineers are considered a professional degree along with doctors and lawyers. A math or history degree is not considered in the same league. In the UK apparently they are and worse. Apparently a math or computer degree gets you farther ahead then an engineering degree. To me that is a disgrace.
I disagree with you guys that are banging on about all this math stuff. If high school students thought they would be respected and well paid they would go into engineering.
Right now in Canada if you do well in math and physics you will be told to go into engineering because it is a well respected (of course it could be better) and well paying career choice.
In the UK if a student does well in math and physics they should not be told to go into engineering because the profession is not well respected or well paying and the employment rate doesn't seem to be that great. The student would be better off with a math or plumbing degree.
The main problem is the image of the profession and the way the profession is organised.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Doctor 52
Scientist 52
Fireman 48
Teacher 48
Military Officer 47
Nurse 44
Police Officer 40
Priest/Minister/Clergyman 32
Member of Congress 31
Engineer 29
Athlete 21
Architect 20
Business Executive 19
Lawyer 17
Entertainer 16
Union Leader 16
Actor 16
Banker 15
Journalist 14
Accountant 10
Stockbroker 10
Real estate broker/agent 5
ht
Engineering was picked by 6% of teenage boys as their top career choice in a recent poll:
"Girls' favorites: Teacher, 11%, lawyer, 9%, doctor, 8%, nurse, 6%, fashion designer, 5%, science/biology, 5%, writer, 4%, veterinarian, 4%, artist, 4%, medical field, 4%.
Boys' choices: Sports field, 8%, doctor, 7%, architecture, 6%, engineer, 6%, teacher, 6%, business, 5%, lawyer, 5%, military, 5%, science/biology, 5%, and computers, 4%."
http:
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
To compare engineering to a lawyer or doctor is ridiculous given the length of time required to study for the latter qualifications. Equally engineering does not rate academically against maths or any of the other sciences. Perhaps those mathematicians/physicists who are being advised to go into engineering aren't quite making the grade, and are thus being advised to take the second, and lower, option of engineering. The salary may not be very good in engineering but at least you don't get rotten eggs thrown at you in the street, like estate agents.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Wow what the heck engineering school did you go to. In Canada an Engineering degree is a lot more academically involved then a math or physics degree. It is actually the other way around. People that can't hack engineering take a useless math degree. With a math degree you are pretty much screwed. No job and low wage. Engineers are actually well paid and lots of job oppurtunities. Now I can say for certain that the UK system is crazy.
"To compare engineering to a lawyer or doctor is ridiculous given the length of time required to study for the latter qualifications."
Please enlighten me. I took 5 years of university and four more years of work experience to become a well paid professional engineer. I'm also going back to school at the moment to do my master's degree. Two more years min. I guess I'm just ridiculous to compare myself to doctors and lawyers.
From your response Corus I'm guessing you consider one of those 2 year tech school degree "Engineers" that draws pictures for a living for a low wage an Engineer.
I guess I have a different view then you.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
To be a doctor, lawyer, architect I believe that you have to study for 7 years plus. There is no comparison.
Those who do study a 2 year tech degree and draws pictures is called an engineer just as someone with a Masters is called an engineer. Perhaps that's the problem.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Architects whining on medicos.
http://www.archsoc.com/kcas/Doctors.html
Personally, I just couldn't bring myself to become a doctor because of 1)the odd hours they work 2)their work is not 1% as interesting as mine is 3) just the thought of cutting and sewing one anatomical part for my entire life makes me feel sick. Can't this human body just evolve over time to make the job a little more challenging?
Ciao.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
The C.Eng under the SARTOR-2 selection criteria was a bit harder than that: a number of my colleagues have had their applications declined in recent times. Obviously I don't know the specific reasons and it would be crass to speculate, but these were reasonably senior people who might have expected to get accepted if your criteria were universally true. I hope it is a sign that the standard is being maintained, because most all the other standards in the UK seem to be dropping in the past few years. Hopefully the SARTOR-3 requirements coupled to the IEE trying to broaden its membership base won't dilute the C.Eng to the level you envisage, although I too have my doubts.
I agree that medical doctors are usually very intelligent, very committed people and that their course is long and challenging. A childhood friend studied medicine and he remarked to me that (paraphrased) "We have to memorise a lot of stuff to diagnose problems. You guys have to understand it all!". He said he couldn't study electrical engineering because the maths was such heavy going and the course program was so intense compared to his. He'd got an A-level maths grade 'A' in the days when only two or three kids in the school got that grade. I believe he's now earning at least double my salary and working half the hours. Ho-hum!
The idea that lawyers are in some way equivalent to doctors is grossly unfair to the medical profession. There is a lot of competition to study law so the law schools can skim off the best students and the entrance grades are therefore high. The course isn't inherently difficult in the way that medicine or engineering is. The closed shop and protected title is what keeps their salaries high.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Even the engineers in the UK think
-Engineer Degree is less then math degree
-Charter Engineering status is useless
-2 yr diploma and 3 yr degree is the same thing
Pleasse continue to complain about your salary.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
You are right, there does seem to be a need for engineers to relocate to Aberdeen. But who in there right might is going to take on board the cost of relocation for what will be in most cases a contract position. Whats in Aberdeen after all. I have been contacted on many occasions by agencies offering mid 30's per annum. I can earn this without the upset of relocation. As for those companies quoted, I for one would love to work for any of them but like Scotty said, try and get in. These positions tend to go to a select few and yes they could be well paid but they are not a reflection of the industry as a whole. It is low paid, hard work and generally unrewarding. Not the first time I have said this but it has become careerless. I would say that the standard pay for professional engineers in the UK in 30K-40K if your lucky. I accept working offshore pays more, but who wants to do that for there career.
Engineering is not prepared to take on the responsibility to train anyone. They headhunt. It does not offer anything that cant be found somewhere else. There is no shortage of skills out there, but there is a total shortage of people prepared to take on board transferable skills and train in house. My personal opinion for this is, there is no long term investment in people skills because there will be no long term need. Immigration will ultimately solve the problem and allow the costs to be kept low and therefore continue to make engineering a total unattractive option for denizens and anyone starting out or looking for a career change.
The construction industry is not having this problem at the moment. Nor is renewables. People are also wising up to the fact that if your going to work hard, do something that you can do yourself. A resent C&G study supports that young people do not see any value in working for someone else.
When visiting those companies that cry skills shortage, which is now part of my job, I generally find crap. They want something for nothing and wont do anything about it.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
A lack of succession planning and a lack of commitment by businesses to their professional employees- these problems cannot be solved by graduating or permitting the immigration of yet more engineers. Yet business will continue to cry "shortage" and will NOT cry "stop!" once a particular perceived shortage becomes an oversupply. Why would they? What's not to like about an oversupply if you're a business? It pushes down wages and makes employees more "flexible" (i.e. willing to put up with sh*tty working conditions, no benefits, contract work without a contractor's salary, uncompensated overtime etc. etc). Oversupply renders our profession into a commodity, with the same stink associated with all other "rendering" operations.
As to opportunities for engineers, don't be confused by QCE's enthusiasm for Canada as an alternative to the UK. Canada may well be better than the UK for engineers because the situation in the UK sounds so dreadful, but it's no picnic here either. We've got a massive oversupply of engineers: at least 100,000 engineers have been supplied to our marketplace in excess of realistic estimates of demand in the past decade and 10,000 more are added to that number annually. Graduation AND immigration rates to our profession have both exceeded economic and labour force growth in our nation by a significant margin and show no signs of slowing much less reversing. Your chances of being employed 2-years after graduation in ANY job are roughly the same graduating from engineering as they are graduating from the AVERAGE university program here (despite tuition being greatly higher and the course of study greatly harder). Some estimates put the chances of landing an actual engineering job on graduation at roughly 50% on average. Your chance of employment in ANY job 2-years out is considerably worse as an engineering grad than if you graduate with a degree in ANY medical field, or even religious studies! University profs/administrators and government officials in the provincial education departments here view engineering as "the new liberal arts education" and have given up any expectation that grads of engineering programs will actually WANT to work as engineers and go on to professional licensure. See www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm if you want to see the stats for Canada.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Lets list the cons:
UK - nojobs, low wage, no respect
Canada - no jobs
To Moltenmetal: I think the Canadian system is the best I've seen. Keep up the good work of informing people that there are no jobs here. May we have a shortage one day and all of our wages will go up even more. Cheers!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
A comparison of wages between the two countries for chemical engineers (for example) shows an average salary in Canada of 52,000 canadian dollars http://canadavisa.com/documents/salary/c.htm whereas the average salary for UK engineers is 42,000 GBP http://
As one candian dollar is worth less than half a british pound sterling, there is obviously no comparison. Similarly a comparison of petroleum engineers worldwide shows that candians aren't the lowest earners. In fact the Carribean and South America beat them for that position http://www
A survey in the Sunday Times on Sunday 5th June showed that the qualification that gave the largest increase in wealth in the UK was a degree in mathematics and science, followed closely by a degree in engineering (history isn't worth the effort by the way), so engineering might not be No. 1 in the UK, but No.2 sounds ok to me. If value equates to respect then engineering can't be too bad in the UK. You just need to have the right qualifications.
As for Canadian engineers.. I'm losing respect for them.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I'm surprised chem engs get that much, hmm, mechies are about 10k less, that explains it.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I'm not bashing the UK. I'm actually bashing the UK engineering system. I think we can all agree that your comparison of unemployment rates is not a good comparison when we are talking about the employment rate of only engineers. Also we are talking about engineers that are employed at a real engineering job.
Next the salary thing is not very good. The article clearly states this is the average for an experienced engineer. The website for the Canadian salary is from a law office and is not really in the ballpark.
What does "gave the largest increase in wealth" mean?
Please check out:
http://www.peng.ca/english/become/need.html
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
FWIW as far as cost of living goes I reckon 1US dollar=1 Canadian dollar= 1 Australian dollar = 1 pound, at least that's how it feels to me!
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I deliberately referred to links so that my opinions were based on fact and not to baseless comments such as "UK - no jobs, low wage, no respect".
The Canadian dollar is worth about 0.4 GBP when I checked.
The increase in wealth that a degree gives was calculated by comparing the average salaries of those who left school at 18 with 'A' levels (whatever they are in the US and Canada) and who then started full time employment, compared to those who at 18 years went on to University and gained a degree. From memory a maths and science degree earned an extra 200,000 GBP whilst an engineering degree was valued second at about 190,000 GBP. I did find a link to the story on the Sunday Times web site but unfortuanetly the online version of the paper didn't include the table of figures. Unfortunately my copy of the Sunday Times has now been taken away by the Sanitation and Waste Disposal Engineer, previously known as the binman.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
But the salary surveys quoted above show that engineers in the UK are doing pretty well in terms of pay: don't forget that average salary in the UK is something like £22,000 pa. and an average salary of £40k puts engineers in the top 10% of all UK tax payers. Comparing engineers to other professions, I think on average we do pretty well; yes there are differences between branches of engineering and geographical area of working, but then not all law graduates are QCs earing megabucks in commercial law; most of them are doing conveyancing for £35k or something.
And comparing salaries between countries is always tricky; I've lived in different parts of the world and as well as the cost living you have to factor in the levels of social provision of services to get an true idea of salary parity. The UK is a very expensive place to live, but the NHS is still free (if lagging behind say, France and Germany in some areas of quality). So a direct comparison of UK salaries vs Australian salaries vs German salaries etc is sometimes misleading.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
as to the continuing debate between corus and greg, i think greg's point was that effectively (ie what you can buy with) 1 pound = 1 cdn dollar ... having lived in both systems, i think this is reasonable (within engineering accuracy!).
i also agree with the previous posts, that you can find data to support just about anything (and no corus, i'm not accusing you of anything). i think anecdotal accounts are reasonable in this context ... not many posters have said "i'm well paid and think i have a high status job" ... maybe in their high paying jobs they don't have time to post on fora such as these.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I do live in Canada and I HAVE studied the situation here- extensively.
You may be able to "find data to support just about anything", there are some things for which the data is collected by a reputable 3rd party and is accurate and clear. That's definitely the case for the supply statistics for engineers to the Canadian marketplace versus time which I have posted on my website.
The demand-side data is NOT clear, nor is the salary data which has been posted here. There ARE salary surveys available from our professional bodies here in Canada but they have a significant (high) reporting bias since only those who have licenses are reported, yet roughly 1/2 of Canada's engineers are unlicensed. The thousands of engineers who are unemployed or under-employed are not represented in these salary statistics, nor are they reported in the unemployment statistics available from the same sources.
But what IS clear here in Canada is that the growth in supply of engineers over the past 12 years is so enormous that no reasonable estimate of workforce demand could match it. Oversupply is clearly indicated, and it's supported by numerous secondary indicators. Anyone who weighs such data equally with a few people reporting "I'm all right, Jack" is sticking their head in the sand. They've got lots of company- most people in Canada's engineering advocacy and regulatory bodies have their heads in the sand on this issue too, as does Citizenship and Immigration Canada's bureaucracy. Our so-called federal advocacy body, teh Canadian Council of Professional Engineers, has its collective head shoved in an even darker and less pleasand place. Fortunately, the current Minister Joe Volpe has woken up to the issue and has publicly stated that the current system has supplied Canada with "...more engineers than we could hope to use."
As to comparing salaries, "comparative advantage" has to be taken into account. Cost of living in Canada is far lower than it is in the UK. But what matters most is a comparison of the relative compensation levels of occupations with similar educational and personal responsibility/accountability/liability levels. In this regard, Canadian engineers have slipped relative to the other senior professions by more than 50% in the past forty years.
This Canadian engineer isn't going to let his profession slide further into the toilet without a fight. If that costs me corus's respect, that's a very small price to pay.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
You have been so dedicated to this cause I will write a letter to Minister Volpe and my Association. Stating some concerns about demand for engineers.
Thanks
To Corus - My comments are not to put down the UK system but hoping to improve the system for engineers everywhere in the world. Sorry if my comments came accross as so harsh.
QCE
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
And as Greg Locock points out:"as far as cost of living goes I reckon 1US dollar=1 Canadian dollar= 1 Australian dollar = 1 pound". One US dollar will buy you the same amount of living in the USA as 1 UK pound will in the UK. Exchange rates just don't come into it unless you are moving money from one country to the other.
The ONLY consumer goods I could find that bucked that trend were (oddly) shoes (which I bought in the UK on trips home).
My view is that Americans need high graduate salaries to pay back their college debts and that inevitably drives them up. I come from the generation who received student grants (and industrial sponsorships) and therefore graduated largely debt-free. I really pity those recent graduates who start work in the UK with a UK-style salary and a US-style debt.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Has a very interesting point of view.
It would be interesting to hear more comments regarding the original question:
"What caused the huge drop in applicants over the past decade?
Is it lack of jobs, low pay, low prestige, competition from cheaper foreign workers, or something else?
Britain was the workshop of the world in the 19th century. America held that title for most of the 20th century.
I'm an American and I'm wondering if the US is next in line for deindustrialization."
I think we already got your point regarding wages. I found a very similiar thing in the UK. I was offered 19000 pounds as a new grad so I moved to Canada and got $52000.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
What approx year was that? In 1980 it would be remarkably good; in 2005 it would be tragic (and more likely).
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I was talking to one of my colleagues a few weeks back when he told me that he couldn't afford to live in England any more as an engineer and had no choice but to relocate (via an internal comany transfer) to America. His reasons were that he and his wife had just started a family and couldn't afford to live on one engineering salary over here.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Every engineering job advertised here in the UK requires years of direct experience. None offer training or compromise to this, thus those with transferable skills find it difficult to get in or are ommitted as to are new engineering students. This sets the scene for a skills shortage when really there isn't and 1000's of engineers sit redundant, underemployed or simply change career. Based on supply and demand, the low remunaration for engineers in the UK would support that engineering is still over subscribed.
We have this really bizarre thing here in the Uk where people retrain later in life, do degrees but no-one does anything to facilitate them into these shortage areas. Your either a young grad or experienced and there is no in-between. So many find themselves in the chickan and egg sinario. New skills no experience no job its crasy.
We live in one of the most congested countries in Europe, there are more than enough people out there willing and ready to work. What business needs to do is go out there and get them and stop expecting something for nothing. HR needs to go as do accountants. Good people are not a resource and you need some touchy feely in a firm along with some long-term investment. What you are now seeing is the results of not investing and treating people who have a very speacial mindest like a commodity. Now the industry sufferes from low moral. Very few people who work in engineering have a good word to say about it.
So how to put it right. Is more the question. Good into schools and telling kids how greta something is when really its crap is not the answer. Start with the engineers that are left, make them feel king and they will do all the promoting for you. Which busines is going to be brave enough?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Just for the record:
A manufacturing job is NOT an engineering job!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
A minister enraged skilled workers who lost their jobs in the Rover collapse by telling them yesterday to go and work for Tesco.
With manufacturing industry on the verge of recession, Margaret Hodge, the work and pensions minister, said employment was being created in the service sector.
Margaret Hodge: 'crass'
Phil Hanks, a former MG Rover worker, said: "The jobs we had were highly skilled. Working at Tesco's would obviously be nothing like the same kind of work and the pay would be nowhere near what we used to earn."
Tony Woodley, the general secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union, said his union would not tolerate supermarket jobs replacing work at the Rover plant at Longbridge, Birmingham, which closed in April.
He said Mrs Hodge's remarks were "the comments of an incompetent idiot masquerading as a minister".
Sir Digby Jones, the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, welcomed flexibility in the labour market, saying: "Just because you were making cars yesterday does not mean that you can make cars tomorrow."
But he added: "Where Mrs Hodge is wrong is if she thinks that this country can afford for skilled people to be stacking shelves."
Mrs Hodge made her comments in an interview with the Wolverhampton Express & Star about employment prospects in the West Midlands.
She referred to the proposed creation of 350 jobs at a new Tesco store in the Yardley area of Birmingham and was asked whether skilled Rover workers should apply.
She said: "Well, they will work all over the place and there is a new brownfield development site in the West Midlands as well. I am saying that some of the jobs are in Tesco and they will meet the needs of some of the unemployed and people looking for work.
"There are also other jobs arising out of new industrial developments."
Mrs Hodge later denied saying that MG Rover workers should apply to Tesco but said it was one example of a range of new opportunities. A business park to be built a few miles from Longbridge was another.
She said that more than 560 manufacturing and engineering employers had contacted the Government with 5,000 vacancies. Ministers were working closely with the MG Rover task force to find training and employment opportunities.
"Already more than 1,000 former MG Rover and supply chain workers have been found work and more than 2,000 have joined training programmes," she said.
Mrs Hodge, who is close to Tony Blair, has a reputation for gaffes but is unlikely to be disciplined for her latest remarks. The Government has long advocated labour flexibility, saying that workers no longer have jobs for life and will have to retrain when industries close.
John Butler, an economist at HSBC, said that Britain had been quite successful at retraining people. In the past two years most of the jobs lost had been in manufacturing and most of the jobs created had been in the public sector.
MPs regarded Mrs Hodge's remarks as insensitive.
Julie Kirkbride, the Tory MP for Bromsgrove, who sits on the Rover task force, called the suggestion "stupid".
She said: "We do not want to lose manufacturing jobs and skills from the West Midlands. It is important for the prosperity of the area that as many Rover workers as possible find jobs using their engineering and other skills."
David Willetts, the shadow trade and industry secretary, thought Mrs Hodge had been "rather crass". He said he was a fan of Tesco but the average manufacturing job contributed £75,000 a year to the economy compared with £25,000 for a retail job.
The manufacturing sector has lost 42,000 jobs so far this year, hit by cheap imports and the strong pound.
Manufacturers have also been badly affected by the doubling of oil prices and a steep jump in the price of steel and other raw materials.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Do we have to have quotes from the hysterical Conservative cess pit?
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
But in general, the whole British Leyland debacle is an exemplar of how government policy has done the manufacturing and engineering industry no service.
Basically it would appear that various companies were allowed to rip of the good bits without any oblication to the rest of the group. MG, Jaguar, Land Rover etc all being cherry picked and the core being left to rot. BMW even took out a brand name, the "Mini".
It isn't the case that the car industry is bad in the UK, but perhaps sectors of it have suffered overly from a variety of factors. I did have an illustration of the differnces that existed when I visited the then new Nissan Plant in Sunderland.
This project was a revelation. When I was there commissioning some equipment I had designed, the conveyor never stopped. Even when the operator had a problem with one of the vehicles he didn't stop the line, he went with it to fix the problem. Tea breaks and lunch breaks were partially devoted to re-stocking the trackside supply bins.
Meanwhile, at a BL (or whatever it was called then) plant in the Midlands, I never saw the conveyor moving on any of my visits and while most used automated equipment to fill windscreen reservoirs etc here they had a pallet of windscreen wash fluid in 1/2 litre bottles.
I guess there are therefore a lot of reasons we can attribute the decline to including unions, lack of investment, protectionism (nationalisation), and, of course, bad management.
Any one of which is bad news for any company but when a company suffers the whole lot and is faced by strong competition there must come a point where no-one can save it.
Insensitive comments just rub salt in the wounds.
If the group had been kept together or reasonably so then under a good owner the problems might have been resolved but since the "owners" essentially looted it of the good bits, what was left had little chance. Perhaps that was deliberate, a competitor eliminated.
Sad, because I thought the Rover 75 an excellent car and had hoped it might prove a way forward.
Now one asks just what role government had or should have had or should not have had in all this.
Too many industries that struggled were nationalised, which kept them going, but nothing was done to modernise them, reform working practices or fit them for a future when they could survive alone. When finally privatised they were left entirely to market forces they were ill equipped to survive.
From this I conclude that neither political regime can take any credit and neither Nationalisation nor Privatisation as exclusive policies has been a success though had these policies been integrated they both might have been very beneficial.
The UK government is obsessed with the service sector yet when we look at this sector we find only lip service paid to it and a lack of real and constructive policy; one reason why the UK is strong in the marine sector is its maritime history and the accumulated skills and knowledge and not its current merchant shipping capability, but try and find effective government support or policy that encourages this. It may seem that government is good at taking credit but not at constructive help. But in my view the less governments of whatevere colour do, the better because all too frequently they are part of the problem not the solution.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
The bits of the old BMC that made sense are alive and well, employing many talented staff in the UK and in other places.
Jaguar and Land Rover are still serious engineering empoyers in the UK, even though they have US bean-counters. Rover's demise was inevitable, let's just hope that the IPR for the vehicles and (more importantly) the engines brings revenue to the UK.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
In Aberdeen, there's a shortage of skilled workers- I've just had two separate companies decline to bid for a lot of work we're planning this autumn as they simply can't get the field or workshop staff to do the work...
I don't think that service jobs can support a economy as large as the UK's- most service jobs just move money around an economy, whereas manfacturing bring money into an economy via exports or by coverting resources into goods; and Margaret Hodge's comments just show that she's an arse.....and she's supposed to come up with solutions for the pensions crisis in the UK!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
In the USA the connection is not that bad yet. The US system is also not that great. The US is the home of the microsoft certified software engineer.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Why didnt they think of centralising the O&G sector in Cornwall or some other location that held some kind of appeal for family life. I would hedge a bet you would struggle then to get engineers.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I'm not sure it's any better now.
Sure they put in new road schemes (a Euro-highway, no less) but then they made damn sure it did you no good by littering them with speed cameras.
Result: you now have an equally slow drive but more boring as all the nice towns and villages are by-passed. The trains take just as long as they ever did. Airport expansion at Exeter does some good, I suppose but how does that help you when you need to get to Penzance or Truro in a hurry?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
If industry set the demand, you would have another airport in not time.
Some good point made jmx, but I think the accountants should give more thought to family life before they decided to centralise an industry. Quality of life is playing an increasingly important part in people's decision making. In fact downsizing is now an option. Engineering has to learn to supply what people need and have some of the best benefits around, if it wants the best.
Lets face it how many of us could quite easily work a large percentage of the week at home. Not all I know, but for those who could and would there is a real option of living in some supurb locations, earn good money commute when needed. This is an option in Aberdeen to, engineers dont have to be office bound. May be we're missing a trick here that could help with skills shortages and benefits.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Absolutely. If I could really do my job (or a similar one) from Cornwall, I'd be there in a flash. I live where I live because my job dictates it. Who'd choose Sompting over somewhere in Cornwall?
And as far as roads go, once you get to Exeter, it's like a flying carpet down through Devon and Cornwall.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
The history of Aberdeen becoming the base for the UK O&G industry is intersting....when the first hint of the North Sea was around at the start of the 70's, Dundee just assumed that as it was one of the biggest ports on the eaast coat of Scotland, the industry would base itself there.
Aberdeen had one big advantage- an airport, but also the local council went out and hustled and asked the industry what they wanted. As a result the local council bought a lot of farmland on the edge of the city, put in utilites and roads to create what is now the Wellheads Industrial Estate and the Altens Industrial Estate....the industry followed and the North East of Scotland is now one of the richest parts of the UK.
Personally I'd have preferred Dundee!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Spot on. Your area was extremely proactive while ours sat on their arse and did nothing to support the O&G money that was here. We bled it dry. Instead we bread a council of fat cats and lazy arses who have a lot to answer for in the demise of my local area. I admire Aberdeen for this. But unfortunately I would not consider working there or taking my family and it is the overall asthetics of Aberdeen that stops this from happening. Not the people, they're great, not the positions available, they look (as you have stated) competitively renumerated. But its cold, wet and grey and very expensive to get home. I can fly to Spain cheaper that I can get to Aberdeen.
My favourite saying 'if you want to be different, be different'. I just dont see engineering taking any new ways of addressing the skills issue they have. We have a total lack of inspriration in our management. As you have also state, they would rather lose the contract than effectively address the skills need. And there are so many options that would address these problems. Accepting transferable skills, win back some of those engineers that have left, and so on. We've just got to learn to be different.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Where are you? I worked in Great Yarmouth for 9 months (that was pretty desperate) and the MD of the company we were using moaned how the local council wouldn't give planning permission in the past for harbour expansion or new industrial parks etc because it might deter the holiday makers. Now of course, people prefer to go to Spain, rather than Great Yarmouth (it's cheaper too) and the oil industry has either moved to Aberdeen, Easington or Cleethorpes, so Great Yarmouth is left with no tourism and little oil industry...
One answer to lack of skills in engineering is for all of us to encourage people to enter the field. I've taken part in a scheme run by the IMechE to go into schools, telling them what I do , what an engineer does, how to get in to the field and so on. Pictures of me on a drill rig, pictures of me living in different countries always seems to excite curiosity, and when I talk of the pay rates, interest usually picks up.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I have always known Aberdeen (meaning between the Dee and the Don?) as the Granite City.
Is this corporate re-branding?
I was there a couple of weeks ago and had to stay in the Holiday Inn at the exhibition centre and a colleague was put up in the staff quarters of another hotel (with shared bathroom, unmade beds etc) because the offshore crews were changing shifts and had cornered the market in hotel rooms.
My fault on timing I guess and wish I could remember the nice private hotel I used to stay in before. But the weather was beautiful.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
My full admiration for getting involved with schools mate.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
Once upon a time engineering was the profession. You'd think all those images of being out there in all weathers and seasons doing an interesting and vital job would excite them no-end.
You know, I think what engineering needs is some real blood and gore if that's what it takes to get their interest; just to show that today's kids don't all have to grow up wanting to be car thieves, speed merchants or mass murders or whatever to get their thrills.
If they can produce all those computer games without a care for reality or what it does to their brains then fairs fair, lets have an equally un-realistic Play Station game set on an oil rig, building bridges and damns (should that "n" be there?) designing aircraft etc. If computer games is the way to their minds, why scruple not to use it as a channel to introduce engineering?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
You must be old. Really old.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
By the way, you'e not the Scotty who'd always be gantering on about cracked dilithium crystals in ersatz scots are you?
and that makes me wonder just how much good he did the engineering profession.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
As for pay, well all the kids are materialistic these days aren't they? It's all bling bling and respect and stuff. Mention being on £1500 a week with free meals and stuff and there's often one chid that says "that's like a footballer!".
Apart from Aberdeen, where they're all far too well informed and look at you in pity for working with a consultancy or service company rather than at the top of food chain in an oil company!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
I quite liked Great Yarmouth when I was there- the seafront was a bit depressing: seeing restaurants advertising Pizza in the 'exotic' section of the painted menus and stuff. But there were some great places to go and to eat, the only problem is the local council didn't seem to have any idea what Great Yarmouth was for, or how to run the local economy.
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
An interesting discussion.
I served a toolmakers apprenticeship within the UK Nuclear industry in the late 1980's. In 1987 when I started my training we had 8000 people on site, when I left in 1991 there were less than 2000 ! This was due to Government cutbacks, however this trend seemed to apply to a lot of the UK's Engineering industries during this time.
I got myself a Mechanical Engineering degree & then realised that whilst I loved what I did for a living, I was never going to get rich doing it.
I have been living in Australia now for 5 years. The money for Graduate Engineers seems to be better, the standard of living is much better & Engineers seem to be held in higher regard.
I would dearly love to return to the UK someday, however unless the way Ol Blighty treats her Engineers changes drastically, I'll probably be staying put in Oz.
Just remember, it will only take 3 to 4 decades of no apprenticeships + the steady reduction of graduate engineers going through the education system to totally wipe out UK Engineering on the world map.
Even Australia (who traditionally have imported most of their skilled workers) is increasing the number of apprenticeships available & is actively promoting that young people learn a trade. If this keeps up, the worm may turn & the UK may one day have to start importing Aussie Engineers.
I had an Aussie plumber in at work recently, who proudly told me that he was trained (clearly very well) by an English tradesman during his apprenticeship.
Note: When starting Uni in 1991, the Whitworth Scholarship was the scholarship to win. It is a very sad state of affairs how times have changed.
Berko
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
"Another underlying factor, which must also be considered, is that of image and the decline of engineering as a position with high social standing. Engineering has traditionally been seen as a celebrated profession, equal to say medicine or law, but unnecessary and out of context use of the term ‘engineer’ together with poor corporate communication has resulted in an adverse perception of the profession (Fairs 2002)."
I blame management.
corus
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
They aren't without guilt, but much of the blame should be directed at our professional bodies. The IEE, IMechE, etc. are failing us by allowing this to happen. They should be actively and vociferously lobbying government to raise the status of engineering.
The decline of our manufacturing base and the loss of the major engineering organisations, both state and private sector, has undoubtably contributed further to the decline of our profession.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: How bad is it in the UK?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4629955.stm
M
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Dr Michael F Platten