What should new engineers know?
What should new engineers know?
(OP)
I teach in a mechanical engineering technology program of a large university. As part of our Continuous Quality Improvement process for accreditation, we have been discussing what skills our graduates should possess as they leave our institution. Our program emphasizes applied design and many of our graduates are employed as designers and engineers.
As practicing professionals with a wide range of experience and education, I am interested in your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess? Please don't limit your comments to graphics standards and GD&T when responding.
Thanks in advance for you comments.
Ed
As practicing professionals with a wide range of experience and education, I am interested in your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess? Please don't limit your comments to graphics standards and GD&T when responding.
Thanks in advance for you comments.
Ed





RE: What should new engineers know?
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
As it goes with graphics training, I think that an MET student should have six semester hours of mechanical drafting and CAD.
In my experience, the MEs (not METs) have always been expected to learn drafting and CAD on the job and then only to the extent that they will need them. There is simply not enough room in the ME undergraduate programs for extensive graphics or drafting training (should there be?)
Do your MET graduates get jobs as mechanical engineers? Isn't a mechanical "engineer" normally one with a formal education in calculus-based physics, higher mathematics, fluid mechanics, materials science, solid mechanics, and heat transfer among other things?
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Manufacturing Processes - hands on (welding & machining)
Mechanical Drawing - GD&T, putting together a design package (requirements writing, technical reports, drawings, presentation of ideas and engineering economics ROR). Also current MCAD programs should be used in this proces.
Core engineering principles (statics, dynamics, thermo, HT, machine design & mechanics of materials)
Also, another important quality the new grad should posses is the ability to be trained. I can't speak for all employers but the ones I've worked for don't expect the new grads to know everything about the entire design process. I hope this helps
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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RE: What should new engineers know?
Ere asked for "your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess?" Why bring out mfg processes, mechanics, and sciences?
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Graduates of our program are employed in many traditional mechanical engineering roles. They are machine designers, manufacturing specialists, sales engineers - they do work in all types of industrial settings.
Our current discussion regards the two three-credit courses in engineering graphics that we teach. Solid modeling has been included in our curriculum for a long time – we had the first educational license for Pro/E. Solid modeling is used later in the FEA, rapid prototyping and other courses. We believe our students should be able to create a set of working drawings (assembly and detail drawings with parts lists) for a simple machine by the end of the six credits. Course topics support this main objective.
So, what are the topics you think support the main goal and to what degree should the material be covered?
Thanks again for your help.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
Seems to me you are on the right track. If all engineers know the basics as you describe, especially the hands on training, they should do well ... if willing. Not all fields can be taught to a certain degree because all companies and their products are different. They will learn as they go.
Field trips to science centers and tours at manufacturing companies would be a big help.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
One think I did not see in your description of the program was "Technical Writing" which should include Formal Reports, Informal Reports (memos), Presentations, and you could throw in resume writing in that course too.
RE: What should new engineers know?
In their first year manufacturing class, students visit several companies (foundary, forging, machine shop, injection molding, etc.) to see how they do things.
Thanks again for the comments...
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
As I see it, our engineering technology graduates are competent to perform routine mechanical engineering jobs. Granted, they probably would not be as good at R&D kinds of tasks as engineering science graduates. Many of those jobs require advanced degrees anyway. As with any field of study, there are great graduates, some graduates that you can’t believe made it and a bunch of people in between who will do a good job in the profession.
As a professional engineer, I have no trouble referring to an engineering technologist as an engineer… in my experience, their training is the "how-to" of engineering. I do, however, have trouble with calling the trash guy a "sanitation engineer".
Gotta go... now, where did I park my train?
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
As an educator in an MET program I understand how you would hold these views. I agree that ME and MET programs produce graduates with a wide spectrum of abilities. I had a boss once who was a PhDChemE who couldn't design his way out of a paper bag and didn't have an ounce of common sense in his body (he was fired while I still worked there).
When I graduated, I, like most of my classmates, knew nothing about the minimum bend radii of sheet metals. There simply was not enough room in the curriculum for that. The practical demands of the workplace forced me to learn that quickly though! Since many workplaces (especially small businesses) no longer have room for three people: an engineer, a designer, and a technician, they expect one of those guys to fill the shoes of all three. Many employers recognize the need to keep the classically-educated engineer who can perform all three roles and approach problems from the practical AND scientific angles. The bottom line is this: engineers just think differently than designers and technicians (including MET grads!).
As for the difference between MEs, METs, and designers, I draw an analogy coming from the medical profession: when patients go to their physician's offices, they'd much rather see their physician than the nurse practicioner or physician's assistant. The physician provides them with the highest level of confidence. Meanwhile, the cost of the visit is the same no matter who they see!
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
I'm sure you know the the special name they have for the guy who finishes last in his medical school class... I used to go to a PA who was better than some MDs I've seen... I now see a DO who is excellent...
Some companies only hire MEs and some only want METs... I'm guessing it is a matter of personal choice or bias. I think both have their place in professional practice. It's better to make a choice based on abilities instead of the name of a program. All programs are not the same.
Ed
(In case you don't know, the special name is "doctor")
RE: What should new engineers know?
Designers can have Eng degrees, so can techs, mechanics, machinists, marketing, sales, etc. I have seen it all. I don't know most backgrounds of people in this forum, so I can only go by my experience and theirs.
I have been a Asst Eng, Assoc Eng, Automation Eng, Draftsman, and Sr Designer. In all of those companies, most give the titles but they will not consider anyone a real engineer unless they have a P.E. Very few have it.
IMO, If you have the mfg/design know how, common sense, mechanical abilities, college training, and have crazy ideas you are an engineer.
Just my rambling.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
You're right. There are cases when a PA or CNP provide better treatment than and MD but those are not widespread.
Of course I know that special name of "doctor" however I wisely choose to distinguish the MD from the PhD by using the term "physician." Using the term "doctor" could call up a PhD in Business for example.
Thanks to programs like MET, employers are starting to call people "engineers" who are not "engineers." That is their choice but the Lockheed Martins and Norhrop Grummans of the world still know the difference and hire accordingly. If an employer wants someone who can "do it all" his best recourse is still to hire a degreed engineer (one with an ENGINEERING degree) who can handle the practical AND the theoretical.
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
"As it goes with graphics training, I think that an MET student should have six semester hours of mechanical drafting and CAD."
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
If someone is doing or involved in mechanical design, drafting and GD&T are critical skills which can easily be taught in a classroom, to MEs and METs. I am a Certified Engineering Technologist mechanical designer. The drawings are my final means of communication. If I am not responsible for the results, and the ME is, he had better understand what I do on the drawings, because my emails and remarks in meetings are irrelevant.
I make a point of reading up on GD&T, but then I took the opportunity to take a 60_hour course. It was easy, informative and worthwhile.
If I were interviewing people to do mechanical design, I would hand them three or four orthogonal drawings, and tell them to make isometric sketches. This would show me that they understand projections, and that they can visualize the part in three dimensions. This is absolutely critical for mechanical design.
JHG
RE: What should new engineers know?
You seem pretty absolute on yu opinons of engineers coming out of the Engineering Technology, I have heard the ET grads being compared to engineers who graduated in the 30's and 40's.
What would you call an ET grad who is able to obtain a PE Licence?
RE: What should new engineers know?
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
Because Era included the word "abilities" which pretty much opened the door for other answers. I'm sensing you have some issues with METs! The school I graduated from had both programs and IMHO the METs kicked ass on the ME in all SAE design projects. In 1994, the MET's entered two vehicles in the West and Midwest SAE Mini Baja competition. If my memory serves me, they took 1st and 5th in the West and 2nd and 4th in the Midwest. They were up against all the major colleges and came out looking good. Also, they fielded a Formula SAE car in 1996 and took 10th place the second year.
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This brings up another issue is the the college that produces the educated graduate or is the abilities of the students themselves that go on a do great things. I tend to believe that it's the students not what college they attend that makes the engineer.
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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RE: What should new engineers know?
I work for large, and what many would consider prestigious, company that employs thousands of engineers. You must have an engineering degree from an accredited university to get hired as an engineer. An engineering technology degree can only get you hired as a technologist (our company's name for technicians).
What I find troubling is that I believe that many colleges that offer engineering technology programs mislead their students about the degree they are working towards. Many of the students in technology programs do not understand the difference between engineering and engineering technology. In many cases, they believe they will be hired as engineers when they graduate. Although some are (mainly by companies that have niche positions for technology grads, or by companies that may not understand the difference - YIKES), many are not.
Many of the people we interview for technologist positions seem confused and disappointed when the figure out they are interviewing for a technician position and not an engineering position. Sadly, some don't realize the true difference until they are hired, work for a while, and grow to understand the coroporate hierarchy.
Thus, my suggestion is to educate your students about the distinction between engineering and engineering technology. Do not mislead your students, or allow them to be misled.
RE: What should new engineers know?
What if a MET grad aquires a PE? I realize that there are companies that do know the difference and set up there hiring practices to reflect that. I know of companies that will not hire you as an engineer unless you hold a degree from a certain college. I worked for one of those companies (I have no idea how I got hired other than having the right skills and experience) but during my time there I saw these new grads (BS MS & PhD) stay for the training then they found other jobs (terrible ROR for the company). It was the employees from the local colleges that stayed around. I personally tend to judge the engineer not on degree held but on accomplishments. I know I'm off topic here but the cat is out of the bag.
RE: What should new engineers know?
When I was at the university, I found that could be the most difficult courses to pick were those electives in Arts and Letters, now if CAD Drafting could be called an Art, then a whole year could be devoted to a improving a skill that is necessary out there in the real world. And that is aside whether you have the ‘Tech’ on the end of your degree.
I also had similar requirements for writing for my BSME, but those courses were not useful in what I do today, what is needed for writing is specific to the style of writing that engineers use. Specifications, memos, analysis, reports, and discussion groups like here...
Hydrae
RE: What should new engineers know?
If an MET gets a PE then more power to him. That's a good sign. If his employer uses the PE and a four-year degree as the criteria for awarding the title of "engineer" then he is welcome to call himself that. It won't take long, though, for his coworkers to observe that he doesn't have a "classical" engineering education. Don't get me wrong. I've worked with designers who can "design the pants off" of some MEs.
I strongly believe, however, that BSMET students should be told that they generally will not be on an equal footing with BSME newgrads. They should also be given the unvarnished reasons why.
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
hydrae: Unfortunately, CAD drawing courses are not considered to be a general education electives... they are, however, required in the MET (6 cr) and ME (1 cr) programs. Students in engineering technology programs can take a sketching course (art elective - still lifes, etc.) for 3 of their required 6 credits. ME students cannot take a "skills" elective like this and have it count towards graduation. This is an ABET rule.
Haf: I agree that METs and MEs are not the same. They are not intended to be the same. But, in my opinion, there is a large overlap in the work that they do... METs are competent to do some of the work that MEs do... just like there are some things that an MET can do that an ME can't... the other thing to keep in mind is that all MET programs are not alike, just as all ME programs are not alike.
At our university, all freshmen have to take a 1 credit introductory "seminar" class in their intended major. These classes are taught by senior faculty in the major area. In our MET seminar, we discuss the differences between engineering and engineering technology and try to make students understand that there is a difference. We tell them the type of work that our graduates do. They are instructed to switch to ME if that is their preference. It would be unethical and immoral to not do that... I'd like to think that our program is not unique in this...
I never thought this discussion would turn out this way... I was just looking to verify that our program was teaching the right things in engineering graphics...
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
I'm struggling a bit
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: What should new engineers know?
Stuff that goes into making working drawings of mechanical parts/machines - orthographic projections, isometrics, dimensioning and tolerancing, weld symbols, thread symbols, etc.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
Hydraulic symbology and application
Pneumatic symbology and application
Electrical symbology and application
Welding symbology and application
Besides the standard 3-view manufacturing drawings, care should be given to proper drafting technique, such as line weights, line types, ect. It might also be helpful to have students work creating exploded assembly drawings with balloons. Its amazing to see how poor some people will explode a mechanism, expecting someone else to be able to assembly something from that drawing.
Mock engineering change processes (ECN/ECO) would also be helpful.
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
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RE: What should new engineers know?
Hmm, I guess orthographic projection could possibly be regarded as redundant, in the age of solid modelling, but, what happens to someone who needs to interpret a traditional drawing, and has never constructed one? Constructing isometrics is also a bit of a party trick, probably the least important in your list, but also dead easy once you can do orthographic projection. Constructing sections on arbitrary planes is essential in my book.
As to the rest of your list, essential knowledge in my opinion, far more important than learning any particular CAD system.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: What should new engineers know?
RE: What should new engineers know?
I understand that there are jobs better suited for METs and jobs better suited for MEs and a bit of overlap, but that was not my point. Technology grads (particularly EETs) are extremely valuable where I work, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their degrees; at the same time, I am not willing to give them something that their degrees did not earn them.
It is good to hear that your university educates your technology students about the differences between engineering and engineering technology. You are right that it is the ethical and moral thing to do. However, many schools that offer MET and EET degrees do not offer engineering degrees, and I believe they are therefore less likely to frankly discuss the differences for fear of losing students. To make matters more confusing, these schools often offer degrees in "electrical technology" (two year associates degree) and "electrical engineering technology" (four year bachelors degree). The technologist that works for me now (an EET grad) told me just last week that when he was in school, he was led to believe that he would have a position like mine, and an ET grad would have a position like his. He is now debating whether to go back to school.
I am not trying to put down any technology grads or suggest that technology grads are never capable of doing certain work. The fact of the matter, though, is that, in general, they will have less opportunities than an engineering grad to do true engineering work. I don't believe that this will ever change. Schools that offer both engineering and technology programs have lower admission standards for their technology programs (just ask ERE). Good companies recognize this and recognize that engineering grads, in general, are a cut above FOR PERFORMING ENGINEERING WORK.
RE: What should new engineers know?
Studies have shown that having the ability to translate 2D views into 3D views and vice versa contributes to a students success in an engineering curriculum. That probably translates into a more successful career. I agree completely about the sections... very important
MadMango:
Exploded assemblies are important and are covered in our curriculum. We stress sketching over the use of instruments to create drawings. We think the CAD program takes care of lineweight, etc. I really like the idea of a problem involving a change order. The uphill battle is that students seem to think the first go around is enough... I tell them the way it is but I don't think they always hear me...
Forgive my ignorance, but what is Viso? I'm guessing it is a spreadsheet program?
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
I would agree with you on the GD&T aspect. The ANSI Y14.5 should be required text, along with some practical examples and problems. That should be required for ME's also. Although I would not make a semester out of it.
I also agree with you that many engineering tasks can be accomplished by both 4-year MEs and 4-year METs.
Tunalover,
If an ET graduate is able to pass the FE (EIT) exam, has he not shown the minimum requirements for an engineering position?
RE: What should new engineers know?
In a lot of engineering programs around very little stock is placed in engineering graphics/mechanical drawing. In many of the programs at my university (AERO, ME, IE, EE, CE) students get 1 credit of graphics instruction as part of a 3 credit introductory design course. When I first started 15 years ago, it was 3 credits of mechanical drawing alone.
Haf: Thanks for your comments... we do have both ME and MET programs. We get a lot of students in MET who transfer from the ME program. Some are more interested in the applied aspects of the MET program and some can't do the math and physics. Unfortunately, you are correct that the requirements for admission to MET are less than for ME. It pains me that we have students (engineering and ET) who need to take remedial English before taking freshman composition.
RE: What should new engineers know?
I don't think our MEs get any GD&T at all. Our METs currently only get about 15 hours of it. I'd love to have a course that covered GD&T along with the associated metrology and a little functional gage design.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
http://ww
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RE: What should new engineers know?
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
I thought of one other thing. If your students are sitting over some sort of drafting tool, they should be taught Design for Manufacturing and Assembly (DFMA). I have the Boothroyd Dewhurst Knight textbook, and I am satisfied with it.
Its only omissision as far as I can tell is inspection. This is a major concern, especially if you are studying GD&T as well.
JHG
RE: What should new engineers know?
RE: What should new engineers know?
I employ a mix of engineers and junior "designers" who have graduated from a mechanical technology program. I enclose designer in quotations because they are basically doing CAD work. Yet I can't call them drafters, because they don't know how to draw!
Some explanation: I find that technology programs are teaching graduates how to use the tools (e.g. 3D CAD) but not how to make good use of the skill. For example, my junior guys are wizards with 3D CAD, but they have no sense of how to properly dimension a part. And I don't mean in depth knowledge of Y14.5 or GD&T, but just knowing that you need to dimension a part based on how it fits with other parts. So we get drawings with free surfaces as datums, tolerance stacking errors from the use of baseline dimensioning where continuous dimensioning is more appropriate, too many or too few drawing views, dimensions in the wrong view, etc.
This isn't stuff that necessarily requires a high level of competence in GD&T. But it does require more understanding of the process of assigning dimensions and tolerances to a part than you get in a SolidWorks or Inventor course. I'm working with these guys to give them a better understanding, but is it unreasonable to expect a technologist level graduate to know this stuff?
Dean
RE: What should new engineers know?
RE: What should new engineers know?
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
I agree with you very strongly. Personnel departements are obsessed with CAD expertise, and not at all interested in drafting skills.
The problem is that people overestimate the difficulties of running CAD, 3D or otherwise, and underestimate the difficulties of engineering and drafting. If it were my choice, a new designer would not get in the door unless they understood drafting, including GD&T. Unless the job was a two week contract, I would not worry about their CAD.
I learned to use AutoCAD about ten years ago. Now I am on SolidWorks, and the AutoCAD is marginally relevant. Ten years from now, I do not know what I will be using. Is CAD training really worth a semestor or two at college, and is it more worthwhile than GD&T?
An engineer or technologist designer should have no problems figuring out CAD software. They will be figuring it out in the context of producing proper working drawings, which is that much better.
I hate working with CAD operators.
JHG
RE: What should new engineers know?
You have opened up another issue. Most HR departments do not really understand the day to day engineering details to really tell the difference when scanning resumes'. It seems easier to pick out key words like Pro/e, SolidWorks, Catia, MasterCAM, and such. I have a little skills test I give to candidates which touches on GD&T and mechanical drawings. But then the flip side - I worked with this engineer several years ago who didn't have much CAD experience when he started. The company sent him to numerous CAD training classes but it just didn't sink in....he was constantly corrupting data on a daily basis. I spent so much time one on one that I had trouble getting my own work finished. I hate working with arrogant engineers it gives the profession a bad name.
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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RE: What should new engineers know?
I agree that a course on CAD software isn't nearly as important as dimensioning and tolerancing (the softwares change so frequently), but they do give the student a grasp of solid modeling, which can transfer between systems and, as you posted, they should have no problems figuring out a specific software.
RE: What should new engineers know?
In answer to your question, I say no. Would you call someone who passed the bar exam without going to law school a lawyer? I wouldn't!
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
o
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Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?
Read before you write FAQ731-376
RE: What should new engineers know?
Let me see if I have this straight. You believe that an ET graduate that passes the PE exam can call him/her self an engineer. But when the same graduate passed the FE exam, they have not demonstrated basic skills.
I think you have demonstrated a rather narrow minded view point of the ET programs.
RE: What should new engineers know?
I just checked a few sections of ABET's list of accredited programs, and did not see a single ET program listed.
A degree alone does not guarantee competency, but it should be required as a bare minimum for professional pursuits. Engineering is less rigorous in this regard than law, medicine, architecture, or even accounting.
In answer to Ed's original question, here are some areas that are as neglected as they are critical:
- Mechanical tolerance analysis, including designs with geometric controls.
- Technical writing, esp. test protocols, reports, and analyses.
- Good solid modeling and FEA practices... NOT just how to use the software! For CAD, this means knowing the correct order for features (fillets, chamfers and other treatments last), making sure that profiles are fully constrained, etc. For FEA, this means an thorough understanding of model verification and validation.
- Engineering graphics - they should be familiar with the ASME standards (and how they differ from the ISO standards), understand the diff. btw third angle and first angle, and know the various ways that drawings can be misinterpreted (e.g., failing to show dimensioned features in true profile views) and how to avoid them.
RE: What should new engineers know?
If engineers do not have these skills, these days most are just CAD operators.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
The reason why you did find an accredited technology program with that link is because it's for engineering programs. Try this link
http://www.abet.org/accredittac.asp
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
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XP Pro SP2.0
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Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?
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RE: What should new engineers know?
The instructions for the Florida exams refer specifically to "an engineering program accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Commission of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (EAC/ABET)". Given that the technology programs are accredited by ABET's Technology Accredication Commission (TAC), I doubt that they qualify under Florida law.
RE: What should new engineers know?
ERE,
Based on the off topic discussion (since you only were asking regarding improvement to your engineering graphics curriculum), I would suggest that you continue to strongly encourage your students to take the FE exam.
RE: What should new engineers know?
Can you refer us to the actual study showing that the MET students pass at the same rate as ME students? Is that specific to one state or nationwide? I'd really like to see the hard facts (published by a reputable organization) supporting your statement.
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
A GOOD engineer can do everything a technician and designer can do and more. In small companies, where they can't afford to fill those roles with three different people, engineers are often forced into them by necessity.
McLeod is right in stating that the degree does not give many skills having true real world value.
When I received my undergrad ME degree, I entered the workforce thinking I knew everything. I quickly realized that I lacked some of the skills listed by McLeod. I quickly learned them on-the-job, however, as is expected by many degreed engineers (although as I grow older I increasingly recognize how little knowledge I have in the grand scheme of things!).
The bottom line is this: our curriculum was too packed with science, math, general university requirements, and analysis to give us many practical skills. Our schooling provided us with lots of theory and gave us a broad, high-level way of thinking. Most importantly, many of us picked up the academic skills enabling us to learn MUCH more (practical stuff included).
The engineering managers I've come to know prefer classically-educated engineers even if they are more expensive and (initially) lack many rote skills. Provided they can avoid over-analyzing things, these guys quickly gain these skills on the tube, in the shop, in the lab, and on the production floor.
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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ctopher's home site
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RE: What should new engineers know?
I hear you! There have been rumblings in the academic community about increasing the programs from four years to five years to do that very thing (although many do the "four year" program in five years). Talk to the PhDs who decide what goes into the programs of study!
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
IMO, I think someday a 4 year degree will not be specific and if you want to go into engineering, it will be specialized and require maybe 2 more years.
Or, the world will be so computerized, a eng degree will be less important. Time will tell. Probably not in my lifetime.
I am teaching my kids to pick a profession that will always be needed, like medical for example. My son is interested in Forensic Science. I don't want them in Engineering, not very stable.
Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
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RE: What should new engineers know?
On the one hand, I use about 50% of my final (third) year's content. However, asking around, that puts me in a tiny minority, most would reckon that their final year was too academic.
Also, I believe I did far too much maths, not by choice.
On the other hand we had 5 afternoons a week of labs/tutorials, and 5.5 mornings a week of lectures, for the first two years. That is quite a load, and was only practical because the tax payers in the UK were exceedingly generous (in retrospect).
On the other other hand we only had 24 weeks of the above schedule a year.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: What should new engineers know?
A majority of our MET students who take the FE exam pass it... I have no hard facts to support my position. Forget about that... my point all along is that in any field of study - engineering, medicine, law, business, liberal arts, whatever - you have some really good graduates, some not so good graduates and a bunch of people in between. I do not believe you can generalize and say that all ME graduates are better than all MET graduates. All ME programs are not alike nor are all MET programs alike. Every program has their own emphasis and goals. Frankly, I think it is time to let this discussion comparing METs to MEs to die... some of the positions stated are not going to change - and that is okay.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
Accredited programs (engineering and engineering technology) do not exist in a vacuum. ABET has established 11 key outcomes that all programs must provide... I don't have them in front of me, but they are stuff like being able to solve technical problems, (mechanics, thermal sciences, fluids, etc.) being able to communicate, recognizing the need for life-long learning and ethics... These outcomes are developed by academics and the professional societies. (ASME, ASCE, IEEE, etc) Additionally, every program has an Industrial Advisory Committee (IAC) which is comprised of representatives from industry... typically, we try to get engineering managers... the purpose of the IAC is to advise the faculty on what their program should include. Typically, these are regional groups because most programs focus on the needs of their region. They meet regularly (1 to 2 times per year) and discuss issues related to the program.
Our MET program has 13 full-time faculty members. 9 are PEs and most of them do outside consulting work and/or some type of applied research. This experience is also incorporated into the curriculum. Quite often, I will spend a day working on a consulting project that will involve something that I'm going to cover in class the following day... I discuss this with my class to demonstrate relevance of the material to their career... they typically get pretty excited by these discussions.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
I graduated from a five-year "professional degree program" in architectural engineering from a large, well known university. (It's a BAE, not a BS degree) It is interesting because looking back, the program is almost a hybrid engineering science-engineering technology program. I took the same math and science as all the other engineers on campus. Had a bunch of the other stuff too... an EE course, computer science, thermal science, fluids. Some of the courses in the program (structural option) were survey courses of other disciplines. Some courses were theoretical in nature (loved indeterminate structural analysis for example) and some were absolutely applied (this is how you do this...) In my work, I use a small portion of what I learned in school. I have had to learn a lot of stuff that wasn't covered. I could have ended up doing the same work with a traditional 4-year degree preceding grad school. I suspect this is true with most engineering careers - people will always have things to learn on-the-job.
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
It is interesting to read what people think you need to be an engineer. Many of the things described as “must have” would not have been taught to engineers educated thirty or forty years ago, does that mean that they are not engineers?
Perhaps from a British bias but the one of the greatest engineers of all time was Isambard Kingdom Brunel, he was in the true sense an engineer, who along the way made many mistakes, but came up with some fantastic ideas most of which still stand today, he did however have no idea what solid modelling or Microsoft was.
Sir Frank Whittle was a pilot in the RAF (Royal Air Force) he was not an engineer in any sense of the word but still went on to design the jet engine. Would that make him more of an engineer than someone with an engineering degree? I am sure a few of his dimensions were not correct.
Alan Turing was a mathematician but is widely regarded as the inventor of the worlds first electronic programmable computer, is that not engineering of the highest order?
Do you need a degree in engineering to be an engineer? Something to ponder next time you sit on a plane working on your laptop.
RE: What should new engineers know?
We must make a firm distinction between inventor and engineer. Many engineers are not creative but succeed anyway. Inventors HAVE to be creative in order to succeed. Math and science tends to stifle creativity!
Tunalover
RE: What should new engineers know?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: What should new engineers know?
n 1: a person who uses scientific knowledge to solve practical problems [syn: applied scientist, technologist] 2: the operator of a railway locomotive [syn: locomotive engineer, railroad engineer, engine driver] v 1: design as an engineer; "He engineered the water supply project" 2: plan and direct (a complex undertaking); "he masterminded the robbery" [syn: mastermind, direct, organize, organise, orchestrate]
narrow-minded
narrow-minded adj 1: capable of being shocked [syn: shockable] [ant: unshockable] 2: lacking tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view; "a brilliant but narrow-minded judge"; "narrow opinions" [syn: narrow] [ant: broad-minded] 3: rigidly adhering to a particular sect or its doctrines
I think this states everything we need to know about Whittle
http://www.cwn.org.uk/heritage/people/whittle/biography.html
Whittle settled in America in 1976, and was a member of the Faculty of the Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland.
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
o
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"There is no trouble so great or grave that cannot be much diminished by a nice cup of tea" Bernard-Paul Heroux
RE: What should new engineers know?
Thomas Alva Edison was no mean engineer, either...
Regarding NEW engineers and what they should know... They ought to be able to learn any computer program in a couple of days. They should be able to draw, too...
Hey! don't we become engineers because we like to build things, including putting our ideas on paper?
RE: What should new engineers know?
One thing I would add, I don't remember anyone mentioning it yet, is tha all ME or MET students should work in manufacturing during some point in their undergraduate study. As Kim said a GREAT engineer or designer knows how something can be made economically and in a timely fashion. I learned as much about manufacturing and the intricacies of making something while working as a Quality Control Tech for a go-kart manufacturer as I did in my BSME. Knowing how something you design will be made will help you to understand how to design it for DFMA better than the class will.
Alan M. Etzkorn
Project Develpment Engineer
Wabash National Corp.
www.wabashnational.com
RE: What should new engineers know?
all of our students must complete a year-long industrial capstone project or a substantial internship. I think I'd like to see all students do both. Co-Op programs have some advantages as well...
Ed
RE: What should new engineers know?
Mechanical and Civil Engineers, each require better education on fabrication practices such as welding and heat treating. This information should be included with an Engineering Materials course. Within the covers of Budinski’s Engineering Materials tome (700+ pages) only around eleven pages mention welding. An extremely low amount when one remembers that nearly 70% of all products are welded, brazed or adhesively bonded together.
Exposure to Non-Destructive Testing techniques, a single lecture should suffice. Here is a PowerPoint h
The concept of Life-Long Learning. In the current issue of NCEES’s Licensure Exchange http://nce
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: What should new engineers know?
I am a MET that went on to a ME masters. Yes I was taught calculus in my MET courses. I have ME's coming to me all day with questions. Why do they do that? Becuase I enjoy what I do and work hard it, and they are lazy.
Two years out of college there is no difference between ME and MET.
Funny story. My college roomate was a ME, used to always bust on me for being a "stupid" MET. Well guess who is currently working under me. Yup, that same college roomate.
The best thing to teach a engineering student? Do not go into the profession because you are good at math like your high school advisor tells you. Get into it because you have a passion for it. Because if you do not have this passion you will be miserable for the rest of your working career. What we do is not easy or very enjoyable for the average person.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but let's try to stay realistic.
RE: What should new engineers know?
I work at a pretty big deal aerospace company, and the Sr engineer on the project (think big gov't mil) we are working on has a degree in Chemistry, and is called an engineer by everyone. It comes down to a way of thinking and that "work ethic" that people keep talking about.
My dad, a competent engineer himself (think sending instrumentation to another planet) has his degree in physics.
One of the "smarty pants" people that I graduated with (again think big deal engineering college) in mechanical engineering is now selling car for a living. Another is a real estate agent. When we were in school, you'd have never thought they weren't going to be engineers. But I guess that was before I knew what an engineer actually did.
I absolutely agree with Hemibuell. Many people become engineers for many reasons, but few actually want to do the new new thing. That to me is what engineering is all about. Not this endless bureaucratic report writing that most of the "other" engineers I know do.
I am not saying that there is no place for report writing, but when you are the reports guy, are you really an engineer. I mean come on... I design new parts, see them made, stand up and answer the tough questions. While this yahoo from Stanford writes reports all day to deflect in lack of ingenuity and keep that paycheck coming...
... Oh, I wonder if they'll take that $75.00 grad fee check and "actually" give me my degree 9 years later. Who knows I couldn't afford it then, and I'm sure that since every thing has gone up there, I couldn't afford it now..
RE: What should new engineers know?
RE: What should new engineers know?
Funny, but it sounds almost like you're describing the exact same degree program I signed up for in Springfield Mass a few years ago. As a graduate of the MET program (2 year degree) there I was given the opportunity to learn a large number of things from the design, manufacturing, and project management side of the business. We had two english courses (basic english comp and a technical writing course), project management, fluid mechanics, physics, statics, strengths of materials, machine design, CAD (AutoCAD, Mech. Desktop, Pro/E), CAM (EdgeCAM), many math courses (up to a "calc-lite" or pre-calc), GD&T theory and application, and even a manufacturing class where we were able to create parts with Pro/E, create tool paths with EdgeCAM and then finally plug the programs into some milling machines and actually machine our parts out of aluminum. In addition to this, we also had a inspection course that taught us the ins and outs of using all sorts of measuring and gauging apparatus including a CMM. All in all the MET program, at least at the school I attended, was excellent and allows graduates to aquire positions where tasks in drafting, design, manufacturing, and inspection are tackled with much confidence and competence.
Graphics standards and skills? I think that it's important to understand at least one 3D software package and AutoCAD. A manufacturing software package is a good thing to have as well. Of course, drafting standards and a robust knowledge of GD&T is a prerequisite in my opinion.