problem with architect - need help
problem with architect - need help
(OP)
I have a problem on a job involving a large resort hotel. The architect showed 4' (up to mantle) of stone veneer (15 psf) on the room fireplaces in one of his sections. The interior designer showed a 20' vertical height of stone veneer. The floor is not designed for the 20' load and the architect is blaming me for not looking through the interior designers drawings (they number about 100 in quantity) The architect's drawings were incorrect and unbelievably, the Owner and architect are blaming me. Is anyone aware of any AIA or other documents that I can reference, which state that the architect is responsible for advising the structural engineer of decorative materials that require support?






RE: problem with architect - need help
RE: problem with architect - need help
If they're just mad, a few mea culpas and apologies may be in order. Or just decide you're not going to work with that owner or architect anymore. If there's a monetary component, you need to talk to your error and omissions provider.
RE: problem with architect - need help
It sounds like, although conflicting, you had the Architects plans and the Interior designers plans. Normally I rely on the architect’s plans just because he is a design professional and they like to claim the lead.
Interior designers scare me because on one of our projects, they changed all the light fixtures on our final design that the breakers and circuitry had to be revised. To them all it was we are using prettier lights!
I am like JedClampett, can you elaborate on the scenario? I tend to agree with his thoughts.
Lutfi
www.cdeco.com
RE: problem with architect - need help
There, however, is a related issue here that can jump up and bite any of us at anytime. Architects can provide engineers drawings throughout the project and then can change things just one time near the end of the project and void your complete design. This is not what happened in this case but, I have seen them change structurally significant items right at the end of project and then be quick to point the finger at the structural engineer for not noticing it before the project went out.
We must constantly review their drawings to "find that hidden needle in the haystack". Don't they have some responsibility as the lead design professional to notify their consultants of some significant change? It seems like we have seen a trend lately of some architects communicating less and just assuming that everything will just be "discovered" on the drawings without having to discuss things.
RE: problem with architect - need help
Check your contract, if you need a lawyer, don't admit to anything and require access to memos and correspondance for significant changes that led to this situation. You may not be to blame here depending on the situation.
VOD
RE: problem with architect - need help
Lawyers will always manage to get and subpoena the records! It is up to the defense attorney to quash the subpoena.
I suggest that a meeting between the architect, owner and the engineer take place and they should attempt to resolve matter in a professional manner.
I do not like the sound of things going to E&O, lawyers and even admitting guilt. Just set a meeting, and be proactive in resolving the matter and then settle the money and or issues later.
Most of my clients want the problem to go away instead of festering and mushrooming and finger pointing. If you try this, I think you will come ahead just for trying.
In the future do not work with this architect who is blaming you instead on working to resolve the issue at hand. I always tell them if this one finger point away, there are three pointing back!!
I must say that I am very lucky to work with great architects. As a matter of fact, I had 4 hour meeting with them on Friday to coordinate several issues as the design matures. We came across few items that would have been crucial and frankly embarrassing if they were not caught. I say communicate, communicate and make sure you coordinate and talk with them whenever they change backgrounds. Your stakes are as high as theirs on any project because on are on the same team.
Good luck
Lutfi
www.cdeco.com
RE: problem with architect - need help
One issue you didn't address above is when you got those interior drawings and under what circumstances. If someone sent them to you and said "Look through these and see if they affect your design", that's not good. If you got them after the fact, that's different.
Another issue- do you have a contract? Who with? Who is obligated to furnish you information?
RE: problem with architect - need help
In this case there is a very heavy dead load (the veneer), that needs to be designed for in addition to the standard hotel live load. It must be added in. You cannot just say that this load is accounted for in the live load. The load must be treated differently than a filing cabinet or a piece of furniture.
RE: problem with architect - need help
RE: problem with architect - need help
That's sound advice, I agree, meet and solve the problem first then try to smooth things out.
VOD
RE: problem with architect - need help
DaveAtkins
RE: problem with architect - need help
Here are answers to some of your questions.
We did not have the architectural finish (interior design) drawings until after the drawings had been issued. However, the drawings were issued a year ago and there was plenty of time to do a revision had we identified the excess weight. On the other hand, the architect had plenty of time to correct his section, or give us a heads up. The architect did give us a heads up on a heavy faux timber frame that appeared on the interior design drawings.
Regarding the stone veneer, it did show up as full height stone on an elevation on the interior design drawings. It was not labeled as stone, but clearly looked like stone. We did not notice that drawing and assumed that the architectural drawing section, which dimensioned the height of stone as 4, was correct. We have designed a structural fix for free, but since the bldg is under construction, I am pretty sure the cost of the fix is more than it would have been if the "fix" had been identified earlier. It seems we are taking all the blame from the Owner. I do not know if we will be asked to pay for the fix, but the Owner is writing memos saying we heave full responsibility.
RE: problem with architect - need help
RE: problem with architect - need help
Best Wishes
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: problem with architect - need help
Bevans, another way to look at the issue- once the discrepancy was discovered, your response should not be to design a fix, but to inquire which drawing is actually correct. At some point, you should have written direction from the owner or architect or someone telling you which drawing is correct. If that has never been issued in writing, request it. That could be an important document down the road, in showing that there actually was an error on someone else's part.
RE: problem with architect - need help
How was this information given to you? If there was the implication that the Architect notified you of all the significant loads resulting from the interior design, then not listing the full height veneer was an omission by them.
RE: problem with architect - need help
Don't forget here, that the owner is obligated to pay for whatever he would have had to pay had the error not ever occurred. So the cost to the owner is:
Owner cost = (cost of the fix) - (cost of the original sized beam to hold the veneer)
Design team cost = (cost of the fix) - (owner cost)
Just because you found out that a beam was undersized late in the project, doesn't mean the owner isn't obligated to pay for the beam that SHOULD have been there. But the owner should not have to pay a premium costs due to the late-ness of the fix.