PE for Engineering Professors
PE for Engineering Professors
(OP)
Most engineering professors in the very well-known (research) universities in the US do not have the PE of any state. Some months ago, an online discussion among several of them indicates that many do not even care about engineering licensure. Can one imagine a professor of medicine, training doctors, not being licensed in his state? Any ideas?





RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Perhaps you should contact the licensing board about those research reports published without stamps...
Hydrae
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Most of the profs at my alma mater were PE's, as most of them also did some consulting.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I'm with you. I've found it very rare that engineering profs in mechanical, industrial, or petroleum have a PE and most of the ones I've talked to disdain the whole PE thing. They say things like "compared to my PHd, a PE is a crackerjack prize". That attitude goes a long ways toward explaining why so few schools require the FE to graduate in engineering.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Just a questions…
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to read books written by non PEs.
Why not just look at them as training facilitators - why does a trainer have to be a qualified engineer?
When I was learning to do partial differential equations did it matter whether I was being lectured by an engineer or a maths professor?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
They were allways bringing examples from the real world to the classroom. They hired grad and undergrad students to do the coolier work on a lot of their jobs and paid them pretty well. Not as much as engineers but more than most student jobs.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Because teaching is not the same as consulting. Equally research is not the same as consulting.
I'd turn it on its head. Suppose a prof gets his PE and teaches full time for 20 years. How does he maintain a workable familiarity with the codes?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
1. hydrae states: "If they publish, that would be a report about an engineering subject, which would require a stamp".... I don't agree with you here hydrae - Simply publishing a paper on research in a professional publication is not necessarily the practice of engineering that regional authorities, or states, license. There are all sorts of articles written by non-PE's that are the result of expertise, lab tests, or basic knowledge that don't constitute the "selling" of professional services and don't affect the public safety and heath.
2. I think there is confusion here between the ability of a prof with a Ph.D. to teach and the ability of the licensed engineer to practice engineering. Each are doing separate things....although they revolve around the same subjects.
3. If a professor does direct research, though, then this is essentially selling engineering services to a client. My own major professor, for example, does research with composite metal decks for SDI and other deck mfrs. His tests result in written papers, reports, theses, and articles in professional journals that eventually work there way through the process and into a building code. This type of work I would think could be considered "the practice of engineering" and would require some type of licensure. Basic teaching of students would not. In fact, I would argue that the ability to know and teach engineering principles to students could not be measured properly by the PE licensure process anyway.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Moreover, any professor in California working at a university would fall under the industrial exemption and would still not be required to be licensed.
TTFN
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
TTFN
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Well, heck. Go right to the core of it and require the work experience. Think that'll fly better or worse than a PE requirement?
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I don't think we should concern ourselves with what disiplines need a PE, all do to offer services to the public. I think getting academics licensed is a good start to advanicing our profession.
Bob
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Actually, many professors who teach in medical schools do not hold an MD degree or a Dph (Doctor of Pharmacy). There are many professors who teach in law schools who hold a JD (Juris Doctorate) but have not passed the Bar exam.
As an undergrad, one of my favorite profs held a PHD in Physics, but he taught Principals of Electronic Instrumentation (The old Diefendoerfer (sp?) text) He was a good teacher, a brilliant research physist and a pretty decent guy who would buy an engineering undergrad a cold brew from time to time while we diagrammed discrete component op-amps on the bar napkin.
One could hardly argue that it is unimportant for Engineering students to learn calculus. The professor teaching that course better have his degree in math.
I have known professors who were great teachers, but couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag. I have known preofesors who had a difficult time imparting their knowlege to a class, but when it came to practical application or research, they were brilliant (It was a good thing they had good TAs)
So, I believe I would have to weigh in on the side of not requiring professors to pass the PE exam.
I remain,
The Old Soldering Gunslinger
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Having jumped through the hoops to attain the PE adds nothing to their ability to teach me the subject.
I've had crappy teachers who happened to be PE's and great teachers that didn't. It's immaterial -- all that matters to me is how well they can impart the subject matter.
That said, the single best engineering teacher I've had was a PE. He was also a former Marine A-6 pilot and I think that may have had as much or more to do with it as his PE.
I think the Gunslinger (with images of Roland passing through my mind's eye) put it very well. I'd only add that being a professor or having a PhD have little to do with being an effective engineering teacher, either.
The credentials don't make the teacher.
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Bring back the HP-15
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RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I think that the only way to get the FE included as a requirement for graduation is to require engineering professors to have their PE. I hope to teach when I grow up and I will definately keep my PE up to date when that happens.
There are engineering schools that require that a student pass the FE prior to graduation and I've seen that new engineers from those schools are usually a cut above average. No, I don't believe that passing the FE makes a person a better engineer. I believe that a program that has high expectations from their students results in better engineers--a program that requires the FE will certainly have other "extra" requirements.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
One of my calculus classes was cross-listed between the math and engineering (theoretical & applied mechanics) departments. It was a class FOR engineers, listed as an engineering course, not just a math course.
The guy teaching it was a fine mathematician. I'm sure teaching to math students he would have been fine. In our case, we're sitting there listening to him talk about vectors and gradients and someone asked, "What's the application"? The professor said he had no idea. No problem with his communication skills, no problem with his grasp of mathematics--but yet he wasn't good enough for us.
A statics professor who can't design a structure would be in the same boat. I don't care how well you understand forces and free bodies; if I ask you what a "pinned" or "fixed" connection really looks like when we're talking about I-beams or reinforced concrete and not lines on a piece of paper and you can't tell me, you shouldn't be teaching it.
I got all the way through my master's degree without ever having designed a major structural steel connection (for some reason we did do this with concrete). If I'd gone on for a PhD, it would have been focus on some research area, still not designing connections. Suppose I'd gone all the way through and then gotten a teaching job? I have excellent teaching abilities and presumably I'd have had excellent grasp of the theory, but I'd still have been one of those profs who had never done the very thing I'm supposed to be teaching my students to do.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Several of my former professors in graduate school were PEs. At my alma mater they HAD to earn their PE licenses to keep their jobs. Back in the 1980s ABET noticed that a significant percentage of the tenured faculty members in my engineering school did not in fact have engineering degrees. Many of them had degrees in related fields such as physics, chemistry, applied mathematics, etc. They argued that these professors were not in fact engineers, and if this college was to maintain its current ABET status, then they would have to hire faculty that had engineering backgrounds or risk losing their accredidation. As a result, the professors all eventually took the PE exams. By passing this exam, it gave them legal recognition as practicing engineers. As a result, the college maintained its ABET status.
The complaint that I most often hear from students regarding faculty members is that their other professors don't have any "real world" experience. This is, in most cases, an accurate statement. Most of the other faculty members that I work with have never held a job in an industrial environment. And they can't teach their students what they don't know themselves. So students looking for actual examples of what they will encounter in the job market when they graduate are usually sorely disappointed. And these students are, in my opinion, short-changed in terms of their education. The reason that most engineering colleges do not require their faculty members to become licensed is that they are not required to do so. And these programs don't view themselves as producing engineers anyway. They are producing the next generation of researchers and scientists. Exceptions to this include engineering schools such as RIT, where practical engineering courses are a priority.
Beware of the expert claiming that you should judge his expertise and ability solely on the degrees that hang on his wall. The PE license tells you that he is "minimally competent". The Ph.D. tells you that he has a great deal of perserverence, and deep knowledge in a relatively narrow field. These degrees tell you nothing of his character, competence, or his integrity.
Maui
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
If you feel strongly that a PE is required become a member of the advisory committee for the programs at your local universities. They are always looking for new blood on these committees.
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Hence it is hardly surprising that only a small proportion of engineering faculty jobs require PEs.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Your quite right. Anyone who doesn't think so can search the California State Board site for Burt Rutan. There are many other examples.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
It is interesting to note that for 2-year institutions a PE is preferred or required in a majority of the positions.
At the 2-year community college that I formally taught at, a PE licensure was worth an additional $4000 per year.
Have a PE’s on staff at 4-year programs (Engineering programs is look favorably on by ABET. (See criterion 5 Faculty page 7 http://www
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Frankly, it really does not matter if college professors obtain a PE license. Teaching is an art, not a science. I would rather have a subject matter expert that can convey to me a real understanding of general theoretical principles in engineering. A Professor that can teach these principles and has real work experience to show some application is definitely a plus, but should not be a requirement.
The application of what you learned as a student happens in that first job as an engineer and is something you need to experience and cannot be taught! A Professor that has a PE license indicates nothing more than they have bothered to take the time to study and pass an exam. If they are a lousy professor, having a PE will do nothing more to improve the situation.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
There are three ingredients:
* teaching ability
* theoretical knowledge
* real-world clue
Having the third doesn't make up for lack of the first two, but having the first two doesn't make up for lack of the third either.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
The system is not broke. I would take the first 2 out of 3 of the necessary ingredients you stated above any day of the week, which has worked and turned out darn good engineers. If we had more Professors like Maui that can provide that last ingredient, that would be ideal.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
The studying process that leads to passing the PE exam is what makes a person a better engineer. This is an extension of the study/test process that is used in college. While I disagree in the way the PE credential is applied out in the real world, the exam itself is most definitely a valid testing tool. The same loopholes that allow for the majority of engineering to be performed by non-licensed engineers also permit teaching of engineering to be done by non-licensed engineers. And I doubt that this will change. Even in Consulting work environments, the majority of engineering is done by the unlicensed and I don't see the leaders of the Consulting Engineering community hiring only PEs. They utilize unlicensed engineers just like Industry and Universities do. Oh, but they claim that the unlicensed are under the Direct Supervision of the licensed. Not from what I have seen, unfortunately.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
This would be more meaningful in states that don't accept teaching experience to count toward the requirement. Some might.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
My post was not meant to reduce the value or perception of a PE license, I have one and I know what is required. I do not agree with one point that you made - "The studying process that leads to passing the PE exam is what makes a person a better engineer."
This is a general statement that I do not agree with. The only statement I can make is that an engineer with a PE license has demonstrated minimum competency on the day they took the exam and passed to practice the art of engineering.
I have seen some real bozo's that couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, and they have a PE license! Any engineer that takes their job seriously and with a passion for learning will be a darn "good" engineer with or without the license.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I had a much tougher time getting the PE's to sign off on my competence (in Oil & Gas PE's are pretty rare) than passing the test.
I had some pretty narrowly focused professors (one guy was working on flow in blood vessels and he managed to skew an undergraduate fluids course to the point many of the students thought that every flow was de facto damaged by shear forces). And every one of them needed some grounding on a planet that I can pick off a star chart.
PE's for professors is not a panacea, but it simply can't hurt to put another barrier between fools and tender young minds.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I teach full-time in a mechanical engineering technology program. 40% of my job is supposed to be "scholarly activity". As a PE, I choose to do engineering consulting work with this time. (BTW the 50% of my job that is teaching takes up about 90% of the time) I know that I am a much better teacher because of the consulting work... current projects equates to current practical examples for class... students eat it up!
There is, however, a problem with finding qualified faculty candidates to fill vacancies. Our ideal candidate will have at least a master's degree, 5 years of industrial experience and a PE. Most of the people we hire take a pay cut to enter academia. There are a lot of qualified people who are interested in teaching but are unwilling to take a pay cut to do it.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Some stats from a community college that I taught Mechanical Engineering Technology & Engineering Transfer (2+2) at.
Number of Full-time Faculty in Engineering Technologies Department - 6
Number with Masters in Education - 2
Number with Masters in Engineering - 1
Number with any "true" Industrial Experience - 4
Number with current (within 10 years) Industrial Experience - 2
Number with 5 years of Industrial Experience - 2
Number with PE license - 1
Sad to say, this is fairly typical for community colleges.
I did have some good well qualified, Masters, PhD in Engineering and PEs, that taught part-time.
If you have your Masters and PE consider teaching a course in the evening at your local college. The student truly need some true real world qualified instructors. BTW, teaching count for CPD hours for license renewal.
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Ed
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
ERE, what are the specific qualities that you look for in a candidate (in order of priority) to determine if they are a proper fit for a position as tenure-track faculty member? What is the single most important quality or skill that your department values?
Maui
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I think technical competence and industrial experience in their teaching area is the number one criteria. A variety of experience is better than very specialized experience. It is helpful if the candidate has prior teaching experience. (Many of our most recent hires are former adjunct faculty.) A PE is desired. Excellent communication skills are required. The faculty in our department are very collegial. We look for people that will fit in with the rest of the faculty – hard-working team players. We value excellence in teaching and scholarship.
In our MET program, new faculty are typically given a 1 to 3 year contract – they typically are not placed on the tenure track because they are new to academia and aren’t thoroughly familiar with the requirements for tenure. If they want to attempt tenure, they have a couple of free years to develop a plan.
Ed
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Maui
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
I would not want your friend to teach my children! Unfortunately, grade school and high school teachers are frequently only one step ahead of their students. That's one of the things wrong with lower education. Also, the smartest high school grads are not usually those who go on to become teachers, if you get my drift. College teachers, especially engineering teachers, should be well beyond their students.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
As a recent graduate I found that the most important thing in a good teacher was strong communication skills and innovative teaching methods. As a civil engineer graduate all of my teacher's were PEs and worked as consultants or owned there own firm. All were actively practicing engineers. I don't think the PE provided any type of advantage.
Many of my teacher's followed the text book, and provided no additional information. More often than not I found it easier just to teach my self rather than listen to their lectures. As a student you rarely get the opportunity to practice practical application of engineering skills, this comes once you enter the work field. The purpose of school is to teach you the basic principles and theories of your field. So what good does having a teacher with a PE do. It makes little difference to me, and I think most other students would agree.
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
And with most engineers (or prospective engineesr as the case may be), the way to do this is to include information about real-life application.
If you tell me all about Young's modulus but can't explain why in the real world I need to know it, you are not a good teacher for me and you do not know enough. Period.
No one here is suggesting that licensure should in any way be a SUBSTITUTE for pedagogical skill, so the whole "I've had bad teachers who had PEs and therefore there's no point in having a PE" argument is invalid. I've had some perfectly awful professors in various fields and all of them had PhDs; does that mean that college professors don't need to have PhDs?
College instructors need:
1. Theoretical knowledge of the principles of the field
2. Teaching skills
3. A real-world clue
No one of the above is any kind of substitute for the other two.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: PE for Engineering Professors
Jenn454: You said it was easier to teach yourself... The main goal of a college education is to learn how to learn. It sounds like you are a success story. In my experience, my PE gives me the opportunity to routinely work on a variety of projects. I use examples from this work to relate material covered in class to real-world applications. I believe it is important to use examples that are different from the ones in the book - it gives students more information from which to learn... it also gives them more opportunity to formulate questions to ask.
With respect to learning new material one step ahead of students you are teaching... yuk. If you are just learning the material, you don't know the big picture of where you are heading and how the material will fit with the overall program. This method is not nearly as effective as being a subject matter expert.
Ed