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PLURAL NOUNS
5

PLURAL NOUNS

PLURAL NOUNS

(OP)
I consider some words (nouns) as "plural". To use them any other way jangles my communication senses. Examples;
1. troops 2. equipment 3. software.

The news people say occasionally 6 troops, (or any number).
I think that is an incorrect use of the word troops.

Also, equipments. Adding an s does not help me. The word is already plural.

The same goes for software. Adding an s does not benefit understanding.

Any opinions?

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

I'm not sure that I agree with you on troop and troops, but I do agree that equipment and software are reasonable as collective nouns, either being singular or plural depending on context.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

troops is the plural of troop, isn't it ?  really i guess you're talking about troopers or soldiers.
troop = trooper = soldier,
troops = troopers = soldiers

"equipments" is wrong; equipment, like sheep, is its own plural !?

is "softwares" the same as "different types of software"

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

"6 troops" sounds wrong, but "40,000 troops" is used all over the place (but used to bother me for similar reasons as yours).

Dictionary.com has as the second definition:  
troops Military units; soldiers

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Troop used to mean a group of soldiers. As such, the plural would refer to multiple groups. A trooper was a member of such a group. Unfortunately the shortening of trooper(s) to troop(s) has made the language less clear with the conflicting definitions. Avoidance is the best policy. Unless referring to Boy or Girl Scouts, use soldier(s) and platoon(s).

RE: PLURAL NOUNS




I always use the plural of "software" as "programs".

On the other hand, "cannon" is plural of "cannon"!

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Ah, the joys of the English language.  It must be hard for ESL people to learn!
  weather, wether, weather
  their, there, they're
  check, cheque
  etc.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Many in the field of foreign/second language acquisition study definitely see English as an exotic language.

I too am really glad I got to learn it the easy way, as a first language.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

I agree that the word "troops" is confusing.  I used to think a "troop" is a group of soldiers, but when the media says "40,000 troops," they mean 40,000 soldiers.

DaveAtkins

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

To make it more complicated, in the US, we usually assign a singular number to a collective, while in the UK, they assign a plural number.  Thus,

US:  My family lives in Virginia.
UK:  My family live in London.

By the way, what does "Support Our Troops" mean?

William

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

3
To give moral support to the men fighting in our name, regardless of the reason they are fighting.  They don't have the luxury of choosing what battles to fight, but they are doing it for us.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

The "support our troops" discussion could rapidly get WAY too political for this forum.  Let's PLEASE not go there.

Back to plurals:

"Data" used to be and for many still is the plural of "datum".  In the last few decades a "mass noun" usage has been coming along, like "water" and "furniture", where singular verb marking is used.

Old way:  The data show...
New way:  The data shows...

I must confess I'm among the young upstarts for whom "data" is a mass noun, not a plural count noun.  But I know there are lots of people who think I'm wrong, so I generally try to keep "data" out of subject position so I don't have to make the verb choice.

Wimpy Hg way:  We can see from the data that...


Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS


French to the rescue.  What about dance troupe?  At dance events we use the term troupe to mean a single collection of dancers who perform together.  At festivals, you can have several troupes perform at the event.  Both 'sound' OK to me.



RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Another example might be a jamboree, where several scout troops attend, with each troop representing several persons.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

I don't think Jimbo's questioning "troops" meaning "more than one group of soldiers".  It's the use of "6 troops" to mean "6 soldiers", which would make a troop be one solider.

And back to the original post, where are you hearing "equipments" and "softwares"?  Eew.  A quick googling suggests that such usages are mostly by non-native speakers/writers of English.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Wordperfect is software, singular.  I have many programs on my computer, which are collectively referred to as software.
It is the same situation with hardware.  A screw is hardware.  All of the nuts and bolts together are hardware.
Troop really irks me though.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

"When I was a boy in Africa my father used to take his rifle and go on hunting trips to shoot elephant and antelope".

"When he got back to the farm he would get his shotgun and go and shoot rabbits"

Why the singular form in the first case and the plural in the second?

M  

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

cuz rabbits multiply so fast?  

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

(OP)
Thanks. Many of you make me laugh. I need entertainment.

jimbo

Yes, I am working sporadically on the FAQ I mentioned.
It is more work than I expected. Semi-retired guys are busy, ya know.

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

To take the singular and the plural to the totally and scatalogically (as well as somewhat unrelated) ridiculous:  In the sci-fi series Star Trek, the captain's second-in-command is Number One.  Where's Number Two?

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

He (Ryker) is the First Officer, thus Number One.

William

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Number two was flushed.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Actually, Number Two probably is still there, but he's the one you never see on the set - he's handling all the sh____y jobs.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

A troop is a group or assembly of people. So of course you can have troops; you can have assemblies or groups, can't you?

Nothing wrong with cannons, although cannon is used for plural also.

Equipment is usually used as a collective noun, so no plural is appropriate. But occasionally, a person or item is associated with an equipment (that with which he is equipped). So several people can have their respective equipments, which is quite in order. The military use the word in this way (so it must be right).

In most of these cases, context is everything.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Once again, the question isn't about "troops" meaning "more than one group".  The question is about "troops" meaning "soldiers", so that "20 troops" means "20 soldiers", not "20 groups of soldiers for a total considerably more than 20".

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

I think that is a misuse of the word 'troop'.  A troop is a group of soldiers.  Troops implies more than one group of soldiers.  An individual soldier is not a troop; the individual is a trooper.

Although it is done, I do not think that abbreviating trooper to troop is a good idea.  To take a singular word and abbreviate it to its normal plural forum, while retaining the singular meaning, is asking for confusion and ambiguity.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

And yet my dictionary lists "troops Military units; soldiers." as one of the definitions. The word has been misused so much the misuse has become accepted.

"An equipment" sounds wrong to my American ears. I would use "a piece of equipment" for the singular. Not nearly as efficient.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

It's been around for a while.  "20,000 troops" doesn't jar as much as a smaller number like "20 troops".  I remember writing history reports as a kid and not being sure whether phrases like "20,000 troops" in the textbook meant 20,000 guys or there were 20,000 groups (like platoons) with who knows how many per group.  I always wanted to change it to "20,000 soldiers" but was never sure enough to do so.

If the "20,000 troops" usage is as old as I suspect it is (anyone got an OED to check?) then that meaning of "troops" is kind of the opposite of "equipment"--it's a plural that has no singular, rather than a singular mass noun that has no plural.  Kind of like "pants" and "scissors".

A more formal description here:
http://home.hia.no/~signeo/number1.html

I guess there are just plain two meanings of "troops".  One meaning is the plural of "troop" meaning "group of soldiers", and the other distinct meaning is "soldiers en masse" and has no singular, and we shouldn't try to tie the two meanings together in a logical manner.

If you look here:
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/nouns/plural.htm
"equipment" and "software" would belong in the righthand (singular) column for what they call aggregate nouns and I would call mass nouns.  Except that "troops" isn't really the same as most mass nouns, because it can still take a number like 20,000 while most nouns of that kind can't take a number.  Smaller numbers like 6 or 20 seem odder, but maybe that's because large numbers still give the impression of an undefined large body of soldiers while smaller numbers get us thinking about the individuals, and makes the word seem much more like it ought to be the plural form of something else.

I'll shut up now.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

(OP)
To say "20 troops" is gobbledegook. It sounds supiciously like "at that point in time", which I translate to "then".

If 20 soldiers is meant, say 20 soldiers, or 20 sailors, or 20 marines, or 20 air force persons, or 20 members of the coast guard.

The misuse may be acceptable to some, but it surely isn't to me. It is either correct or not correct.
The beat goes on.
jimbo

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Jimbo,

It's 20 Airmen, in this context meaning 20 members of the Air Force, regardless of rank.  I'm less sure of Coast Guard members, but would still call them "Sailors", unless I was talking of Grunts, Squids, Jarheads and Coasties. (There are, of course, no such coarse terms for us Airmen)

Chris

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

(OP)
duck0601

I have been called "jarhead" and other kinds of "head", which will get you into a fight if needed. (PS I still would fight but at my age I would lose).

Some of those other terms are less than complimentary, so care is needed to use them appropriately.

This has been a satisfactory discussion.
jimbo

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

"It is either correct or not correct."

A lot of language issues realy don't work that way.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Jimbo,

To ease your mind, the terms are used appropriately, and respectfully.  No fights needed (or wanted, it hurts too much when the alcohol wears off).

Hats off to you and all others who served and/or are serving.

Chris

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Jimbo:

You could always call him a duckhead .....

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

I suppose we could go to the old question....

if there's one mouse or 2 mice
why not one house or 2 hice?

And remember - the 2nd mouse gets the cheese......

"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Is a troop not much the same as a regiment or battalion? If there are say 10 soldiers in each and ten of each you would not say there are 100 regiments would you? Why should it therefore be 100 troops? 100 troupers or 10 troops or regiments surely?

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Because..."troop" has one meaning, but "troops" has two, only one of which is the plural of "troops".

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Here's my understanding of plural/singular/collective nouns, and how I'm helping my ESL Mexicana fiancee understand when to use "much" and "many":

Can you count it or define an exact quantity?
If yes, it can be singular or plural - use "many"
If no, it is collective - use "much"

You don't have one equipment, or six equipment(s), but you do have one piece of equipment, or six pieces of equipment.
You don't have one water, or ten water(s), you have much water, or you have one ounce of water, or ten ounces of water.

software - collective
software program - singular
software programs - plural

RE: PLURAL NOUNS

Why is the plural of goose geese?
What is the plural of moose?
The comedian Gahlager (of smashing watermelon fame) did a skit on trying to learn the English language that was hilarious.
I catch it in reruns occasionally and laugh my butt off every time.

David

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