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Will America give up the Inch?

Will America give up the Inch?

Will America give up the Inch?

(OP)

Taking up from friartucks thread on "Who inveted metric?"

I'd like to ask the question.Will America(i.e U.S.A) ever give up the imperial system and convert to metric.

Has it ever being considered or will pigs fly first?

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Considered, yes.  Likely will be still under consideration after for another 30 or 40 years.  Perhaps the imperial system provides better tax revenue making metric less attractive.

Regards,

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

It is amazing, but so many here in the US find the metric system confusing.  About 10 years ago, the state of CT was supposed to switch entirely to metric, but it fell through.  Through high school and college, I got comfortable with metric in chemistry, physics and biology.  Once I started engineering, they threw English units back at me.  Now at work, I see this crazy mix of units, like grams per gallon to express concentration, or liters per square inch for flux.  It's blasphemy.  I've learned that if I'm talking to a machinist or making a print, I use English units.  If I'm talking to a scientist, I use metric.  If I'm talking to an engineer... well that's where the mixing of units occurs.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

The US Feds mandated a conversion to metric (or SI or whatever) some years ago and set a deadline.  All the State DOT's (Dept. of Transportation) scrambled and mandated it for all their highway and bridge projects.  Now, though, most states have backed off and abandoned the conversion.  

Inches and pounds of the world unite!!! we are being persecuted!!  (joke)

Will it someday be mandated again?  Will the US convert?  don't know and don't care - I'll be long gone.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Answer to the question is yes, over a very long time as PSE mentioned.

For myself (and I believe many others) went through college using the metric system.  Then when we hit the job market we were 'forced' back into the imperial units, because that's what was being used.  

Many of the more experienced engineers have been working with imperial units for so long that's what they know and are reluctant to change.

If I have a choice at all, I use metric.  On occasion I push suppliers to do the same.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

by the way - aspearin1 - regarding Bruce Lee's statement (I loved Lee in the Green Hornet)....

will Bruce Lee's statement change as well?  or how about the logic that supports his statement - logic doesn't change does it?  (sorry...I'm just being flippant this morning)

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

It's still mandated by law; and eventually, we'll probably switch completely over.

However, it's really quite irrelevant for all the calculations I do in Mathcad.  You can quite easily mix:
furlongs/fortnight+m/s+mph and cast the result in whatever units you choose.

Additionally, there are a number of other math packages and unit conversion programs that make the conversions either completely seamless or sufficiently painless to make the issue of units moot.

TTFN

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Quote (aspearin1):

If I'm talking to an engineer... well that's where the mixing of units occurs.

If this is truely happening it's a shame to the profession.  Not only are engineers getting a bad rap for their use of grammar but now mixing units.

I prefer the metric system because then I do not have to deal with Force, weight, and mass conversion.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/p/po/pound.htm

Heckler

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

It's shameful, I know... but true, and strangely comfortable in the industry.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

It has been considered and even attempted as mentioned above by some state DOT's. Road signs that were posted in metric units were shot full of bullet holes until they were taken down and replaced with the old english unit signs. If you look at the speedometers in almost every car sold in the US, they list both metric and english units. So some attempts are still being made to ease the population into accepting the SI system. I am comfortable using either sets of units because in school I was taught to work with both. But I am confident that the conversion will not take place in the US in my lifetime. People are slow to change unless greatly motivated to do so. And I see no motivation for the general public in the US to switch to the metric system.

Maui

RE: Will America give up the Inch?


I think the reason the US hasn't converted to metric, is similar to the reason Structural Engineers haven't converted to LRFD. (I know some engineers have switched so please chill out, the majority of us haven't.)

There is no cost benefit to change. In fact changing over will cost a considerable amount. (It takes extra time to perform calculations with LRFD and the final design generally takes more steel.)

Contrary to what the advocates of the metric system claim, there are time-tested factors, which support the use of the imperial system of measurement. See some arguments presented at this web site.  

http://ourcivilisation.com/weight/

Likewise ASD has been around for years and the building industry and building codes have adopted many standards based upon service loads. Take for example the uniform live load assumed for floor loads. It is quite uncommon for a floor to be fully loaded to the design live load, however, with LRFD that unusual condition is treated to a higher factor of safety, resulting in a larger member to carry the same load.

There is no real need to enforce a switch to metric. I have done many jobs in metric and even more in imperial. When the construction workers need to build (foundations) to metric sizes, they just go buy a metric tape and get the job done.

Regarding unit conversions, IRstuff states, "it's really quite irrelevant for all the calculations I do in Mathcad."  With the software available, unit conversions are the least of problems.

After using both metric and imperial, I find myself agreeing with the web page linked above, especially the part that says:

"The problem with metric is that every unit is based on the number ten. In weight, for example, there are 10 mg in 1 cg, 10 cg in 1 dg, 10 dg in 1 g, 10g in 1 Dg, 10Dg in 1hg, 10 hg in 1 kg, 10 kg in 1 Mg, and so on. Although metric's decimal structure is much acclaimed by supporters of conversion, the rigidity of constant multiplications of ten frequently means that metric measures overshoot desirable or useful proportions."

So the real question is "Why change away from a time tested system to a system that is less convenient and costs more?"

Regards to all,
JPJ


RE: Will America give up the Inch?

VirtualE - I can't your link to the words of my fellow countryman (Keele Univ. UK) go without comment!

It is true that there are many examples when imperial units (for some reason we don't call them english units over here) seem to suit better than metric, e.g. the size of a house-brick.  But there are also occasions when the opposite is true - engineering drawings often suit mm rather than inches.  Also to imply that the switch to metric led to the relative decline of the British economy is just nonsense, I think there were other issues!  The author is associating the change to metric here to the rise in power of the European Union, the latter being a hotly contested issue in the UK with plenty of anti-European feelings about, and this is clouding the authors judgement.  

It is not true that people use mg,cg,dg,g,Dg,hg,kg,Mg etc. to describe weights - it is normal to increment the units every 1000 rather than every 10.  Common metric weights are gram, kilogram and tonne (metric ton of 1000kg).

That's got that off my chest.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Actually, much of the conversion has taken place. Just look at the U.S. auto industry. Any U.S. company that operates in the world market has converted or needs to fairly soon. That leaves the road signs, gas pumps and all of the other stuff used by citizens/consumers. Probably not worth the effort to convert. Only metric consumer product that comes to mind is the two liter pop bottle.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

So what would be the unit eq. to a pint of Newcastle at Fox & goose? Litre or 1/2 Litre

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

The army gave us rifles that used 5.56x45 MM cartridges.
You cannot work on a late model car without a set of metric tools.
Not many track meets have 100 yard dashes anymore it's all 100 meter.  
We'll get there, we just slow.  Some day will be going 20 klicks to grandmas house.  

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

VirtualE- the link you posted was one of the tin foil hat brigades anti EU rants (Britain's decline in the 1960's linked to metrication for example: Britain's decline started during the second world war!), and musch of the points are preeet stupid.

As for what a pint will be called? Well you go to most coutrnies in Europe and you don't buy beer in volumes: in POrtugal you ask for an "Impreal" if you want small one and a "Caneca" if you want a large one; the word "Pint" would survive as a glass of beer, but it would be defined as 556ml.

A lot of the problem is what people are used to: in the oil industry I use a dog's breakfast of bizzare units (sacks per gallon anyone? Or Acre-feet?); I know that a 8000bbl/ day well is pretty good, but if someone tells me tha the pressure is 17 MPa I don't instantly know if that is a lot or not, and that could be dangerous!

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

depends on what the future majority of the world (china and india) use...

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Heckler,

Next time you go to the Fox and Goose ask for 0.568 litres of Newcastle. Thats if you are in the UK or Canada. In the US, ask for 0.437 liters. This could be a solution to over indulgence as after a few it would be very difficult to ask for. Even more horrifying is the thought of asking for 3.69 millilitres of my favourite single malt. No thanks, I'll stick to asking for my wee dram.

Haggis   

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

More from VirtualEngineer's link:

Cans of soft drink provide another example of metric inefficiency. Drink cans cannot be produced in metric units because there are no metric measures available that reflect normal drinking quantities. The litre is much too big and the centilitre is much too small. Instead, the canning industry has had to divide the litre by about a third and produce a non-standard metric measure of "330 millilitres" in order to produce a suitable quantity.

That's just idiotic. So, is "4 inches" a nonstandard imperial measurement?

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys - www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

RE: Will America give up the Inch?


I maintain that the time-tested division of units found in the imperial system of measurement is more user friendly than the metric system.

Admittedly, adding a column of figures involving feet, inches and fractions was at one time a laborious and tedious process. These days however, it presents no problem to someone with a calculator to make necessary conversions.

Here are some more links to web sites speaking about the benefits of imperial units.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Metrication/trouble_with_the_metric_system.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/dunaway2.html

Consider a kilogram, unit of mass right? Yet it is still regularly used as a unit of force. What is a metric ton except 1000 Kg? Rarely do you see KN used, even on european drawings, if you do the numbers get out of sight very quickly. They are just not friendly.  

So the real question still remains "Why change away from a time tested system to a system that is less convenient and costs more?"

Regards,
JPJ


RE: Will America give up the Inch?

I guess we can blame the French!


http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/metric.html

Designed during the French Revolution of the 1790's, the metric system brought order out of the conflicting and confusing traditional systems of weights and measures then being used in Europe.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?


I do all school work in SI, whether its an engineering course, chemistry or astronomy (except there its usually light years or AU's).

Only at work do I have to use Imperial.  I could easily switch to metric with construction drawings, but there seems to be a built-in resistance.  It's just not as easy to refer to a 2x4 as a 102x51 (nominal).  More like an 89x38 actual.

And if we do change to completely metric, what do I call a 2x4 stud or a 4x4 post?  Do I use the 'old' sizes that are not made anymore, or the 'new' size?

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

What we will all end up with is a bastardised system. We will be able to understand to a degree both sets of units. The younger folk will understand metric better, but still use imperial as well.


Having being 'converted' as a child in 1970 (ish), I still use both systems and to a lesser extent, so do my kids.

We still use pints (in pubs), and my son is 6'4" tall (big lad for 17), and he measures his room as being 'about 14' x 3m. Strange but true.

When I survey a building (funnily enough I dis one today), the pipework was 2" diameter, 4m long and 89" off the floor. (my survey drawing was handed to the technician in the office who merrily drew all the services without a mutter or a moan.

So in answer to your question, Yes, you will adapt and change....thats life

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Sure, no sweat.  Navy system requirements from a previous contract:

speed: kt
range: yd
visibility: nmi
altitude: ft ASL
dimension: m
cable length: ft
weight: lb
large angles: deg
small angles: microradian

TTFN

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

VirtualEngineer wrote:

Admittedly, adding a column of figures involving feet, inches and fractions was at one time a laborious and tedious process. These days however, it presents no problem to someone with a calculator to make necessary conversions.

My HP48GX could handle that task and other unit conversions, but it was certainly tedious. And you're out of luck with any calculator under $90.

Consider a kilogram, unit of mass right? Yet it is still regularly used as a unit of force. What is a metric ton except 1000 Kg? Rarely do you see KN used, even on european drawings, if you do the numbers get out of sight very quickly. They are just not friendly.

The four years I was at my previous company, I used newtons. Tons, metric or otherwise, would have been odd. I believe this may be an issue of what is appropriate for the task at hand as well as standard conversions developed for particular industries or tasks.

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys - www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Haggis,

If I were you I would find a new pub to drink at if your "water of life" comes in 3.69 ml doses! That's a heck of a lot of trips to the bar to get a full measure. At least in England and Wales spirits sold in bars must be in multiples of 25 or 35 ml.

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

I think Haggis has slipped the decimal point after a dram too many. That sounds like a 1/4 Gill measure if my barman memories haven't totally deserted me.

I'm guilty of the same sort of thing as Friar Tuck with mixing measurements, but only when estimating. When measuring accurately it's always millimetres or metres.

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

MikeyP and ScottyUK,

You are indeed right about the measures usually sold in bars however, the measure of a dram is indeed 3.69 ml. Where I came from, a dram is a slang term for a shot of whisky regardless of it's actual measure. I think the best place to discuss this would be a site visit.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Whew!! ~7/10 of a tsp would be pretty dismal

TTFN

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Just about the only place where cl (centilitres) is used in the real world is in alcoholic drinks, and here in an engineering forum we confuse it with ml (millilitres)!

Good Luck
johnwm
________________________________________________________
To get the best from these forums read FAQ731-376 before posting

UK steam enthusiasts: www.essexsteam.co.uk

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

I'm starting to see folks use kg/cm^2 for pressure.  That seems to be a bastardization of the language on a par with the parts of the "Imperial system" that everyone is complaining about.

David

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

This "dram" thing has got me thinking. Another pro for the SI is that is (by definition) an INTERNATIONAL system. A "dram" as a unit of volume (rather than an informal expression for a drink of whisky) is defined as 1/8th of a fluid ounce which means that it varies depending on whether you are in the US or not as the US fluid ounce is different to the rest of the world (source: Wikipedia).

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

I will never give up an/the inch.

Didn't the inch come to the aid of one mm and whip the other mm not long ago.


The dram was used as pharmaceutical measurement for many years.  All liquid prescription bottles US were marked with both fluid ounces and drams.  

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

unclesyd's post kind of backs me up when I tell my wife that my "wee dram" is strictly for medicinal purposes.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

haggis,

You don't realize how close you are to the truth.
My first job was in drugstore, the name at the time, and one of my jobs was to help bottle the "Spring Tonic".  The druggist would buy some awful tasting vitamin tonic and cut it 50/50v with sherry wine and dash of sugar.  Later most good tonics (patent medicines) were 20% alcohol.  

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

Nyquil still is

TTFN

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

In the UK many Chemists still have a license to sell alcoholic drinks...

One around here only stock selling tonic wine because of the "Bucky Boys"- 12 & 13 year olds who'd get gassed on tonic wine bought from this chemists.

RE: Will America give up the Inch?

When I worked on older cars I hated the fact that the next size up from a 9/16" wrench was a 5/8" wrench. Now with newer cars, it takes much less thought to go from a 8mm wrench to a 9mm wrench. I've also noticed that bearings are mostly in metric. But I'm willing to work with either system. Whatever the world decides.

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