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Technical Knowledge
10

Technical Knowledge

Technical Knowledge

(OP)
What is the extent of technical knowledge that project managers need to possess.  Can someone with 2-3 years of experience get a Project Management Certification and become a Project Manager. I know of people in the IT industry who with 2 yrs of experience, do in for a PM certification and get high paying jobs in the area of Project Management. My background is Civil Engineering, and I feel stuck. I feel as if I will have to spend years gaining technically advanced before I can get anywhere. Is this true?

RE: Technical Knowledge

It varies widely for different engineering discipline.  But for civil or structural, I feel that project manager should be at a level where, as a minimum, he/she understands the design process and understand the work the designers are performing.

I've witnessed project managers that are so fresh you start to wonder what he/she is managing.

You don't have to be the most technical individual to manage but at least have attained some level of technical competency before becoming a project manager.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Outside of civil/structural, I have no evidence that even a high school education is required.

I wish I were kidding.

Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

RE: Technical Knowledge

Most MBA and management training programs agree with Mike.  I distinctly remember Zenger-Miller training that claimed that "anyone" was capable of managing an engineering organization.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

I've worked with a couple of Tier 1 suppliers who use keen young graduates as project managers.

They don't seem to have very happy lives, as they don't know enough about their own organisations, or their custoemrs, or the technical side of the project.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Technical Knowledge

You should have enough technical knowledge to know the difference between wood and steel !!!

Jokes apart, there's a level of technical knowledge that's required to perform the job - it should be enough to ensure that he/she is not taken for a ride by people like me.

HVAC68

RE: Technical Knowledge

There are people "trained" to be project managers.  Managing staff, time, project scheduling and so on.  It works great in non-engineering profession perhaps.  But take away the engineering qualifications, projects fall apart... many disgruntled employees...  Unrealistic expectations, stop and go...  unethical job number swapping... should I go on?

RE: Technical Knowledge

4
Usually the less technical knowledge you have the more likely you are to get a project management position.  Technical knowledge just gets in the way of setting unrealistic schedules, demanding "scheduled miracles", establishing unrealistic budgets, and making "politically correct/ technically wrong" decisions - things that are all to often expected by upper management of project managers.  You are asking the wrong crowd for advice on how to quickly get into project management.  Frankly, if you don't have much technical expertise, the engineers that work for you won't have any respect for you.

RE: Technical Knowledge

SWComposites:

Several of the posts here have been accurate, and I gave you a star because your post is probably one of the most accurate summaries of the situation as I see it.  And I have performed contract engineering in quite a number of engineering houses.

Your point about technical knowledge "just gets in the way" really hit home too.  Several acquaintenances of mine who moved from engineering to project management positions (and had plenty of technical knowledge) were still overwhelmed by the bean counters over them and the pressure to perform "paper miracles".  But to prove your point about the advantage of having the technical knowledge, at least in that situation they had the credibility and know-how to point out why the demanded "paper miracles" would not happen and make it stick.  The technically inexperienced can't do that when called upon by higher management to explain project failures.

GregLocock:

Gave you a star too because I had never really considered the perspective before of the "keen young graduate".

I do recall several of those over the years trying to perform the task of managing a project for which they had neither the engineering background or the people skills to truly succeed.  As I recall, most of them felt unfairly hard pressed and a few were already considering alternate career paths.  It is always good when someone can give me the bigger picture, and you did.

RE: Technical Knowledge

SWComposites,

You have just, unknowingly, described the management behaviour of our company. Amazing!

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Technical Knowledge

Sorry, not true at our company.  Our IPT leads are so flexible that when they wear their PM hats, they schedule unrealistically, then complain to themselves while wearing their ENG hat about the unrealistic schedules.

Aerospace has traditionally been the exact opposite, where sharp engineers get promoted into the management chain.  Then they die in their new positions, because they wind up cranking on the engineering design instead of pay attention to the budget and schedule.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

2
Project management is Planning, Organizing, Directing, Staffing and Controlling.  If you know or pay to much attention to details ( that otheres are supposed to know ) you loose your way.
YOur job is to see the forest and plot a way through it.  Others will take care of the trees and the beetles on the bark.  IF you as project manager start spending too much time with the beetles on the bark the whole organization may wander around in circles.

RE: Technical Knowledge

BJC

What you say is very true, the PM is the leader. If as leader you get bogged down in the detail the team will suffer from lack of leadership. As with all things there is a balance, teh PM must have an understanding of the works being managed, otherwise he cannot lead the team successfully either. The technical knowlwedge is required for several reasons,

So (s)he can know which direction to go
So they know what is realistic and what is not
To be able to justify the results or missing targets to management or justify the course of action as debodine stated extremely well above.
Experienced designers will also not have as much respect for a non technical or inexperienced PM. A general statement, and likely to offend.

The skill of a good PM is to have the technical knowledge, use that to motivate the team and provide the lead, not get into the detail. If things go off  the rails then the knowledgable PM will first have the knowledge that it has gon off the rails and second be able to assist the team to get back on track.

Mark Hutton


RE: Technical Knowledge

I probably fit the example that many of you describe above. Undoubtedly, my age is less than the duration of many of your engineering careers.

I was hired to run a mfg. plant, not something too many recent graduates are prepared to deal with.  For a time, I felt nigh unethical for taking a job that I felt unprepared for. (engineering degree sans management courses)

I'd guess that the technical knowledge requirement probably depends on the type of project.  It's not too smart to have Mr. Civil Greenie head-up work on a bridge project or watershed dam or something similar.   

That said, the message I got from the leadership that hired me is that a young (inexperienced) person is less biased going into a management project; no bad habits to unlearn.  Sometimes ignorance serves to simplify.  Also a young (inexperienced) person cannot just "do it myself!" if a team member is lazy or inefficient.  That manager will ride, err... motivate everyone, because he knows he couldn't get it done otherwise!

Also, having a a young (inexperienced) person at the head  often creates a team dynamic immediately, as then the team members are almost certain to all share one thing in common at that point: utter disgust "that such a young, wet behind the ears, babyface is leading my project!"  I'm really not joking there, I've seen it!

Probably the number one motivating factor to hire young or inexperienced is economics.  It's cheaper to hire an unknown with potential (that may or may not fail) than to go after a veteran with 20+ years experience carrying a large overhead with him (that may or may not fail). Unwise logic? Maybe, but its reality in some low-margin industries!

If the team is put together properly, there will be several members who serve to oversee that all the calcs check out, all the "i"s are dotted, and that efficient and compliant design is achieved.  That doesn't always fall soley on the guy at the top of the pile.

Very few of my posts to these fora are technical in nature- reason being, I have almost nothing to offer and much to learn.  (and I do, from many of you people!)  A heartfelt thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge.



RE: Technical Knowledge

While I suspect MikeHalloran's comment is generally true, I can even cite an example in civil/structural where only 20% of the PM staff have a degree in Civil Engineering.  I think it's a disgrace to our profession when a design engineer has to explain basic engineering principles to a PM so that the PM can in turn go to the client and explain it to him.

So to answer the original question, I feel technical knowledge is very important for a PM.  Moonstruck, I don't mean to thwart your career advancement but I think you should stick it out and learn more before "advancing" to project management.  It's not fair to the guy's in the trenches when the PM doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground.

If you do go the PM route, do me a favor, please don't call the engineers "my engineers".  Slavery was abolished years ago.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Whoops, sorry, I mean Moonstone.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Technical knowledge obviously helps a Project Manager - but, the key is NOT to surface the engineer in you too much, lest you get carried away by the engineering detailing and end up forgetting the bigger picture of Project Management.  Many Project Managers fail because of this.  There has to be enough technical knowledge to spot the obvious mistakes and to ensure that you are not taken for a ride - otherwise, the function of Project Manager is to carry out functions at a much higher level.

HVAC68

RE: Technical Knowledge

That example is just of a BAD manager, regardless of whether he's an engineer ot not.  

A GOOD manager should know and understand his role and responsibilities and those of his subordinates.  The PM pays the salaries of the engineers and the commodity is their technical expertise.  This takes no engineering knowhow to understand.  To try become the information "middleman" is arrogant and egotistical, on top of being rife with inefficiency and possibility of error in translation.  In that situation, the engineer should be like the hired gun that he is.  Send him to duke it out on the whiteboard.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

Obviously, the Manager has to understand his roles and responsibilities - in fact not only his, he has to understand the roles and responsibilities of his sub-ordinates as well.  I was only suggesting that one has to "grow" from an engineer to a Project Manager - I have seen many Project Managers are unable to do this, simply becuase, they spend too much time on what they know best in their previous position.  In fact, this applies to many Managers, not restricted to Project Managers.  I don't know where you got the term "middle-men" from my post !!!

HVAC68

RE: Technical Knowledge

In my experience in a small to midsize structural firms in the past, project managers not only "manage" schedule, staffing and resources but also act as a technical lead who establish structural systems, make major engineering decisions, train and guide design staff among other things.

My experience in bigger firms however, I witnessed the opposite.  In fact, many project managers have a reputation of knowing too little, mismanaging and as MikeHalloran stated "no evidence that even a high school education is required".

Although it appears to be the norm, it doesn't have to be.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Hi guys,
This thread is a great place to know what most of us think of project management and extent of technical skills required to perform well in a role of project manager/leader.
What I am thinking about is, if one wishes to grow from a technical position into project management and likes, what should be an ideal course. Considering me to be a mechanical engineer with a MS degree and about 2 years of technical work experience, what will be my best bet to gradually grow into project management. Should I be taking courses in management, with the fact that I did not take courses in management in my MS, as my thesis advisor did not like that fact. Anyhow, your suggestions and opinions are always welcome.
Thankyou
Lone crusader

RE: Technical Knowledge

One advice is:  If you shine too much as a technical guru, company will pigeon-hole you into that position.  To be noticed, it helps to shine just enough but definitely you need to show initiative and be proactive.

If this is your first job, it may be difficult to climb up the corporate ladder rapidly (they may treat you like a young engineer forever).  Do not hesitate to open yourself for other opportunities.  There just might be a position you want out there.

Good luck

RE: Technical Knowledge

HEC
If you’re working for me all I have to know is 1.) You’re competent (know what your doing) and 2.)  A team player. A bad score on either will get you off the team.   
When I have people working for me I let them do their thing and leave them alone. I expect their cooperation even when it means compromising what some may consider engineering judgment. An example might be sizing a transformer and service for a project.  The electrical engineer may want to optimize the size of the transformer and service by waiting  for all the load data (which may never be complete) before he decides on a 1500 or 2000 kva transformer.  That’s good if you have all the time in the world.  If the plant has a $100,000 a day revenue stream I might direct him to put in a 2,500 kva transformer and a 4,000 amp service.  So it's overbuilt, The differential cost is less than half a days income. In the next 20 years the 2,000 kva  might have saved him $400 a year, but two weeks extra income and a depreciation cash flow now are what gets the owner the bucks to pay your salary.   It’s usually not a big deal as most plants change (it's good to have the extra power) .  In reality lots of engineers spend to much time "polishing turds", someone has to bring them on track. Engineering is an art and science; sometime you gotta let the pretend science go.   Sometimes you just have to do something even if it's not quite perfect.  
 Career wise for you it’s better to be on a project that finished two months early than it is to be on one that had the most efficient, best engineered electrical system designed in the last 40 years.
Did Hannibal know how to drive an elephant? or Churchill know how to fly a Spitfire, or General Grove know a  Feynman Diagram from a prescription for sulfa drugs?.  


RE: Technical Knowledge

Firstly, you should make it known that you're interested in management.  Frankly, we've got lots of superstars in engineering and almost noone in PM or IPT leads roles.

Then, you need to get yourself a small IPT position, something big enough to get the right flavor, but not too big to overwhelm you.

Classes are OK, but I'm not convinced you need to have much there.  Most of it is common sense, balancing the desires, deadlines and money from the customer with the laws of physics, human nature, reality, etc.  Avoid lying, particularly to your immediate superiors, but make sure you always have your Pearl Harbor memos retrievable.

Calibration is critical.  You need to know when any given engineer tells you that something will get done in a week, what the correction factor is for that individual.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

Composition of a good PM : he is 25% schooling, 25% experience and 50%(bullshit, able to out shout the other guy)

RE: Technical Knowledge

It was common knowledge at the first company that I worked for that in order to become an upper level manager (department head on up), that you had to have a lobotomy before accepting the promotion.

As I experience more and more management teams, I am starting to wonder if this isn't some unwritten rule applied to all corporations.  

RE: Technical Knowledge

No lobotomy required; just a different perspective.

At one of my previous jobs, we'd often wonder why our GM's appeared to be insane.  But, with the appropriate viewpoint, everything they did was terribly rational and scary.

He was 5th GM in 2 yrs.  He knew that he had about 4 months to look good or become the previous GM.  If he succeeded, he'd get promoted elsewhere.

Therefore, new products were irrelevant, so they got canceled.  Existing cash cows were too low in revenue, but a forced last-time buy would goose the bottomline.  Problems in the existing product could be kicked down the road for the next GM, no matter what happened, so he kept shipping.  All the extra employees were superfluous, so they got axed.

Obviously insane from a long-term employee's perspective, but brilliantly logical and coldly calculating as a GM.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

(OP)
Thank you for the overwhelming response. I guess I am one  of those many engineers who are desperately trying to find ways to improve their career paths. I should have framed my question more like how  lonecrusader framed it -

"if one wishes to grow from a technical position into project management and likes, what should be an ideal course. Considering me to be a mechanical engineer with a MS degree and about 2 years of technical work experience, what will be my best bet to gradually grow into project management."

I am in the same boat, I am a Civil Engineer with an MS in Construction Management about 3 yrs of experience and I want to climb the corporate ladder fast, and at this point, I am trying to find out whats the best way to do that. But, at the same time, I dont feel confident about the amount of technical knowledge I have as I have worked on different types of projects. No two projects I have worked on have been the same... so, there is limited knowledge from one project that I can apply to another project. I am stuck in a position where I do not have too many choices at this time and am just going where the job takes me.

But, I am thankful for the insightful (mostly :)) advice that I have recieved from all of you.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Looking at it from a positive angle - You have worked in so many different projects and gained knowledge on many - No two projects you have worked is the same - no repetition !!!  It's a question of how you look at things.

Good luck

HVAC68

RE: Technical Knowledge

Looking at it from a positive angle, your an engineer because you like to do and build things.  You can build bigger, better things as a project manager.  Visualize youself as a doer, not a paper pusher.  USe people wisely.

RE: Technical Knowledge

BJC
"Did Hannibal know how to drive an elephant? or Churchill know how to fly a Spitfire, or General Grove know a  Feynman Diagram from a prescription for sulfa drugs?."

Bill Gates knows software....
Michael Dell knows PC's....

A manager with no technical expertise will only manage, to achieve greatness, you need a Leader.  A Leader needs to be confident, have a vision of what the end-product will look like, and be able to steer all activities towards that vision.  

Most of us become leaders through experience.  

RE: Technical Knowledge

Vision does not require knowledge.  

Jules Verne envisioned space flight 80 yrs before we finally got to the moon.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

IRstuff
What about Roddenberry?  My cell phone looks and works ( maby better) than Captain Kirks commumicator.

RE: Technical Knowledge

AboveRedline,
Just to chase a rabbit - Bill Gates never really invented anything. He is just a really clever/aggressive businessman.

RE: Technical Knowledge

But Gene Roddenberry didn't know how to design or build a cell phone or even a communicator.  

He had the vision of a small portable comm device with certain human factors engineering, while mobile phones, even the advanced one that Maxwell Smart used were still very cumbersome.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

IRstuff
Exactly my point, you need visionaries to see what can be, people who can make it happen, nerds to do the details. Moodstone may be one of the people who make things happen. IF he can and wants to more power to him.

RE: Technical Knowledge

I would rather have a shoe-phone than this wimpy flip-phone :)

RE: Technical Knowledge

Apparently, Agent 86 was a paragon of foot hygiene

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

BJC,

Your post about oversizing a transformer was very informative. Unfortunately the clients that my employer currently work with would rather undersize them based upon preliminary data rather than oversize, as you conservatively and cost efficiently did. Guess who gets the liability for this undersizing? I would caution you on the use of the word "nerd" however. This term has been used quite often to describe engineers and anyone else of intelligence by the general public and by popular media. It has no place on an engineering forum and makes me see red. Other than this, thanks for your interesting viewpoints.

RE: Technical Knowledge

Didn't mean to upset you EddyC.  In this discussion I have tried to see how the rest of the world see engineers.  It's OK for engineers to see project managers as inferior beings because they don't have every iota of technical knowledge in a particular area.  No all engineers are uncooperative bad team player, but therea are enough of them that the sterotype exist.  All you need to do is infer or state in a meeting sometime that your manager doesn't know enough about transformer loading and he should be managing someone ( like you ) who does. you'll be on the list from then on.
 The amount of technical knowledge a manager needs varies with the type project.  If it's a building the manager doesn't need to know any thing about electrical, if it's a submarine the manager better know a lot about hull design.
My point to Moonstone was if he wants to be a projet manager go for it. If according to some here he has to wait until he has more technical knowledge than anyone who works for him, he'll never make it. Projected managers are really people managers, their main function is to make it possible for other people to do their job.

RE: Technical Knowledge

BJC,

I find myself in your camp and I think that moonstone should go for it if he/she feels that it fits him/her better than a design position would. You can always go back to a design role if things don't work out. I also recently met a person that used to be an electrical engineer. She currently works as a manager. She basically explained that she found out that she was a people person and had a flair for managing. Based upon my numerous interactions with her, I agree. It all comes down to what fits a person best.

RE: Technical Knowledge

I think that everyone should at least get their feet wet, once.  At the very minimum, it'll put to bed any doubts you might have had about whether it's a good thing or not.

I've been lead on several occasions and hated them all; but that's just me.  There are others that thrive on it.

TTFN

RE: Technical Knowledge

hi Guys,
Off lately I have come to realize that I am learning more about practical work and job scenarios from this forum than real life. My company being a small manufacturing firm.
Some times I really get frustrated as to the decisions made by the company and many a times without rationale (atleast to my limited experience and knowledge). I have been trying to move out of this company.. may be because its my first company and have not seen other companies so closely. Somehow things have not worked out with job change till now.
The real question to me right now is while making a career move (with ultimate aim of getting into management roles) what should be my next ideal job change considering
1) BSME
2) MSME (control system design experience and research)
3) 2 years of work experience (small company) in designing fuel cells and  fuel cell testing equipment design experience. The experience also includes managing small parts of large projects involved in manufacturing.
4) CAD/CAE experience.
I have been applying for regular mechanical engineering jobs being advertised at job boards (but of no use till now). I am doing this because I think nobody would be interested to hire me for management roles without significant work experience. None of the contacts have really worked out, but am hopefull something will work out(USA is land of opportunity!!!).
I just can not understand, if I am simply passing time and getting into a rabbit hole as offlately I am realizing that I might get outdated for other mechanical engineering jobs.
I am sorry for posting such a message but as I said before I have started to believe more in the views expressed by you all than I have recieved elsewhere.
Thankyou once again for all your constructive suggestions (esp whyun, BJC, IRstuff, oijammu, Thane )
Regards
Lonecrusader

RE: Technical Knowledge

I think you need to read the many other threads on this forum about how to apply for jobs. I don't think many people thought that 'job boards' were the best way forward.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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