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Between You and I
2

Between You and I

Between You and I

(OP)
When many were kids and asked Mom,

"Can me and Johnny go play?"

Mom took the unfortunate step of changing two variables at once by counterexample, rather than stating what the rule was.  Many got the rule wrong.  She said,

"Can Johnny and I go play."

Which many repeated, making this rule in their mind:

"Whenever there is a compound substantive involving a personal pronoun, the pronoun goes last and is always in the nominative case."

So now we have such utterances as

Between you and I,
For he and she,

etc.  These clang upon the ears with amazing frequency.  Amazing, because no one would say "for he" or "for I", or "Give I that, please."

Verbs and prepositions take objects, which require the objective case.

I    --> me
thou --> thee
he   --> him
she  --> her
we   --> us
ye   --> you
they --> them

"Between him and her", "for Johnny and me" or even "for me and Johnny", and "Mom gave me and Johnny cookies" are all correct.  We have very little inflection left in our homogenized English language; let us retain the vestiges of it that remain, for clarity.  When I correct my children, I say

"Can I and Johnny go play."

Regards,
William

RE: Between You and I

You'd be surprised  to hear that lots of locals in the west country of england say 'give i that' then.....

Mind, they say some other gert peculiar stuff too my lover.

RE: Between You and I

William, why would you "correct" your kids incorrectly by putting the first-person reference before the third-person reference? Why not just correct the "just between he and I" stuff, too?

Seems to me you're setting them up to have improper grammar ingrained.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
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RE: Between You and I

I don't comfuse my kids with "mumbo-jumbo". If they were to say "Can me and Johnny go play?". I explain to them to see it this way ... "Can I go play?" or "Can Johnny play?" and relate how the first sentence is a combo of the two.
If I were to explain "Whenever there is a compound substantive involving a personal pronoun, the pronoun goes last and is always in the nominative case." They are still thinking of going to play. I don't go into that kind of detail until well beyond Jr H.S. or H.S. It is just "blah, blah" to them until that time. I have 3 kids and have helped others and have seen this.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site
FAQ371-376
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-1091
FAQ559-716

RE: Between You and I

(OP)
In the statement,

"Can me and Johnny go play?",

the order is not what is incorrect.  It is the use of "me" when "I" is indicated.  The tendency then becomes to "overcorrect"--that is, to use "I" all the time, even when "me" is correct.  If I correct the above to

"Can I and Johnny go play?",

then I am only changing a single thing and therefore not confusing the child as to exactly what the correction is.  The second is no less correct than

"Can I go play?"

Regards,
William

RE: Between You and I

I was taught the order is important. Putting others first may not be the most natural thing in the world for any of us. Still, it's an idea that even a child should understand.

RE: Between You and I

I have no idea if it is grammatically correct or not but in the UK we would say “can I go and play” or “can I go and see Johnny”

Can I go play just doesn’t sound correct to my ear, despite the fact it may well be.

RE: Between You and I

You know weh3, I read

"Can I and Johnny go play?"

I and I cringe.  Went I went through school, it was always the case that you refered to the other person before yourself in a sentence.

"Can Johnny and I go play?"

Is how I was taught to make the statement.  I don't think your way is correct.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: Between You and I

(OP)
The point is not the order, but the case, and the fact that the usual correction leads to "between you and I", which is definitely cringe material.

I don't disagree that "Johnny and I" is preferable to the ear to "I and Johnny", but the latter is no less correct.  "Can Johnny and me go play", however, is no more correct than "me and Johnny".

"Can I go and play" is correct--a compound verb.

William

RE: Between You and I

In my day, "Can I go play" was usually met with "I don't know, can you?" The reference of course was to the child's  ability to play. Permission, of course, is a whole different matter, requiring use of the word "may." Johnny's friend can play tomorrow, today is for grammar lessons.
I suggest: "May johnny and I go play?"

RE: Between You and I

"Go play" sounds like an acceptable contraction of "go out and play".

On another topic, my wife is continually annoyed by an expression frequently heard on the news (not heard years ago): He(she)"went missing".

RE: Between You and I

HgTX,
I think the only way my wife will not become upset would be to express it thusly:
 
The whereabouts of "Mr. X" has not been known since June.

Instead of:

"Mr. X" went missing in June.

RE: Between You and I

HgTX,
Not sure I agree about the "and" between go and play.

The "go play" jars somewhat, certainly to the UK English speaker.  In that sentence, the "go" is acting like an adverb, rather than a verb, and appears awkward, whether gramatically correct or not.  "Please can I play" is sufficient.
"Please can I go" followed by "Please can I play", can be shortened to "Please can I go and then play", or simply "Please can I go and play".

Try is different, because it doesn't involve an action.  Just as "Please can I try and play" may be wrong, so is "Please can I try play".  The correct version would be "Please can I try to play".

RE: Between You and I

Yeah, "go and" is close but not quite the same.  My point was that even "go and play" doesn't exactly mean "go and then play".  Both mean something more like "go to play", though you probably don't like that phrase either.

The same sequence of actions (first going and then playing) winds up happening regardless of subtlety of interpretation, but to me both "go play" and "go and play" don't really carry a sense of sequence, at least not primarily.  It's more of a "go in order to..." meaning.

But "go" in "go play" is not an adverb.  Either "go play" is a funky form of infinitive (missing either "to" or "and"), or it's a serial verb.  Most common in the imperative form ("Go do X").  French has the same construction (all the "va te ..." insults, for example).  A less common but still extant serial verb usage in English is the word "run", as in "Run get me a paper from the newwstand".  I don't use that one, but I've heard it.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Between You and I

When my kids ask if they can do something I most often tell them yes while I'm hoping they subconsciously pick up a signal about my confidnece in their ability.  I tell them immidieately that I have not, however, given them permission to do the something.  They usually try to ask Mom first.

RE: Between You and I

"Yes, youse can go outside and play but youse have to come back inside when I says so."

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