Replace HVAC Systems
Replace HVAC Systems
(OP)
Dear Pros,
I have two 2.5 ton HVAC systems (heatpumps) for my 2 story house, which I bought a few yrs back that at are failing and need to be replaced. They are about 14-15 yrs old, RUDD systems. I live in central VA. I have an estimate for $7400.00 for the upstairs unit, a TRANE XL13i, 10 yr warrenty, variable speed, and then another 3K$ for duct work, as the company said the ductwork should be sized for even flow to each room and the flex duct should not be run over large distances. They also wanted to install returns in each room, as there is only one large one in the main hallway. While I am having a hard time swalling the cost, I not sure that the high SEER pays off at this price even if I do like here for the next 20 yrs. I have been told that the ones currently in the house were installed by a gentleman on the side and I can still get that done for what sounds like about 4K$ per system while the "bigger" outfits are in the 7-9K$ ballpark. I am not trying to cut corners, by 17K$ for both units is awful steep. I have spoken to other folks, many of which have the flex line and no returns in their rooms - is this a must now.
All feedback will be welcomed.
I have two 2.5 ton HVAC systems (heatpumps) for my 2 story house, which I bought a few yrs back that at are failing and need to be replaced. They are about 14-15 yrs old, RUDD systems. I live in central VA. I have an estimate for $7400.00 for the upstairs unit, a TRANE XL13i, 10 yr warrenty, variable speed, and then another 3K$ for duct work, as the company said the ductwork should be sized for even flow to each room and the flex duct should not be run over large distances. They also wanted to install returns in each room, as there is only one large one in the main hallway. While I am having a hard time swalling the cost, I not sure that the high SEER pays off at this price even if I do like here for the next 20 yrs. I have been told that the ones currently in the house were installed by a gentleman on the side and I can still get that done for what sounds like about 4K$ per system while the "bigger" outfits are in the 7-9K$ ballpark. I am not trying to cut corners, by 17K$ for both units is awful steep. I have spoken to other folks, many of which have the flex line and no returns in their rooms - is this a must now.
All feedback will be welcomed.





RE: Replace HVAC Systems
What caused the need for replacement instead of repair?
Did the existing units provide you the comfort level that met your expectations when they were working?
Did you get similar estimates from different installers?
Are there code compliant issues with the current installation?
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
1,2)The drain system and what appears to be part of the condensor unit is rusting out in the upstairs unit (horizontal). The drains clogged at the end of last year and I ended up with water in the ceiling. I think I may be able to get it to operate for a short time longer, but since it has no shuttoff for water level, I am weary of it. The downstairs (vertical) unit has a similar rust problem, I think neither were serviced properly during the first 10 yrs. I have thought about rebuilding them but I have had a difficult time getting parts local due to the age.
3)They are both 2.5 ton, the downstairs unit does fine for heat/cooling. The upstairs has never been able to keep up on either. The emerg. heat comes on all the time, and it cannot maintain 74-75F when it is 90F outside. The insulation in the attic needs to be increased to R30 one company said, as it is only 19 now I think. All of the quoters said that the size is fine for the area, between the insulation and the condition of the compressor, it was in rough shape most said.
4) I have had 4 quotes on the systems, 2 from the bigger, complete, companies in the area, they want 7-8K$ for each system (both Trane), the other two were by local folks that do it on the side, they wanted 8K$ for both systems (Goodman, Carrier).
5) I have not heard that there are are any code issues. Just that to make it "right", the duct work mentioned should be done. One of quoters said that in Jan 06 systems will be required to be 13 CEER minimum. I checked the ACEEE site and they confirm this as well, not sure if it applies to existing homes or not.
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
The other route you could pursue is to hire a competent engineer to run a heat loss analysis and create a design for the new system with recommendations for insulation upgrades as required. With a fully developed design in hand, you can get completive bids that are easy to compare.
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/Ductwork.pdf. As far as I know the SEER requirements are a federal mandate only to the manufacturers, not the homeowner. You should be able to get a lower Seer at a cheaper price from any distributer for at least a year after the higher seer goes into effect. If you ask specific questions I'm sure somebody will give you good food for thought.
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
You mention the company who suggest putting return air into every room.
Whether you put return air in each space, really depends on a few things.
If we were putting AC into a large supermarket (which is simply a large open space), then sorting out the supply side is the most important consideration.We only put in one return point.
The simplest way to understand this is that you need to force the air into the space and circulate it (getting a good mixing airflow). You can only achieve a good room air mixing by 'jetting' the air in. One colleague once said to me that you can blow out a candle....now try sucking it out. Its almost impossible.
Extract points have virtually nil effect on the airflow pattern in a room.
However, if you put only one extract point in your house, you must make sure that the air path is 'easy' and without obstructions.
Closed doors will allow about 60 l/sec through with relative ease, open doors obviously have no real limits, but check your fire code.
We regularly fit door grilles (with fire dampers) and we get round fire code with that. (This may or may not be acceptable where you are)
If you can get away with it, I would suggest you don't need return air grilles everywhere..this obviously will cut your ductwork costs down significantly.
ciao
Friar Tuck of Sherwood
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
I would look at doing a heat loss calculation, you can buy software for around $50 online that will let you check one house. It's cheap considering what you are looking at spending. I would also upgrade the insulation in the attic as well. As for long runs of flex, it is not ideal from an aiflow standoint, but I have seen alot of it installed in homes and no noticeable problems. I'd look over the info imok2 mentioned and apply it to your house.
As for who to get do the work, you could go either way. Alot of the mechanics in the place I work have outside businesses installing and maintaining residential HVAC systems. They are competent and qualified. Either way, I would investigate whoever you chose. There are good and bad full time contractors and good and bad part time installers. Good luck.
KRB
RE: Replace HVAC Systems
As was said earlier, additional returns can help in rooms where the return path for the air is blocked. This is common in large rooms with doors that isolate the room from the return. Again, something that can be done later, and something that could be done whether or not you replace all of the other ductwork.
The $7400 just for replacement of the unit upstairs sounds steep to me, but may be typical in your area. The Trane unit proposed is a very good unit.
---KenRad