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Engineers only push a button
2

Engineers only push a button

Engineers only push a button

(OP)
hi to all,

only a question about current structural and seismic engineering practice worldwide

in my Country, engineers usually design R/C structures using software that, once you've set geometry and material properties, make structural check and give you directly design drawings

in this way even an informatic engineer can design a hospital in a seismic area, just drawing members geometry, pushing "run" in a FEM package, and printing drawing output, without even making sure wheather his sections are ductile or not

when he's not sure, he only adds reinforcement to feel safe

in this way most people who do not have a BS in engineering can design structures, have their design signed by a professional engineer, and submit their project, resulting this way more competitive than who spends years understanding principles and practice and tries to do things better

there're lot of people who think PUSHOVER analysis is just pushing a button

does the same happen in your Country too?

RE: Engineers only push a button

I hope this doesn't happen in the USA.
What did you mean by checking if sections are ductile? Doesn't the software check this?

RE: Engineers only push a button

(OP)
if you add reinforcement when you're afraid your section won't be have enough resistance, you lose control of ductility

RE: Engineers only push a button

In the US, we have enough trouble with high school kids or 2 year techs designing wood trusses with computer programs and codes that they do not understand. Often, their 1st submittal is incorrect or incomplete and the work must be resubmitted.

I cannot begin to imagine trying to do something like this with R/C buildings in seismic areas even if reviewed by a PE.

This, however, makes me wonder how many engineers use drafters or techs to assist them in inputting info. to large scale programs such as RAM, SAP or PCA to design buildings. Even though we have programs like these, there is still quite a few things that they won't do or that have to be modified.

What scares me is that someday a non-engineering manager will eventually make a decision to save money by using unqualified people to do design work which may possibly lead to some tragedy. Hopefully, our licensing laws in the US will prevent this, but how about other countries or offshore engineering?

RE: Engineers only push a button

Here in California it is the same.  In fact 30% of the engineers here are from your country and another 40% are from a country with a similar design philosophy as yours, but they do not speak english as well as you.

At least that is my experience.

RE: Engineers only push a button

jike,
It is already happening. I used to work for a company that offshored engineering, and the engineering was being progressively done more by draftsmen "trained" to operate the company's "in-house" design software.
Very bad trend. The Licensing authority in my home state is very lax about these matters....

RE: Engineers only push a button

I believe that "canned" engineering will continue to grow and thrive until a largescale tragedy occurs.

RE: Engineers only push a button

It has been said that engineers do for $1 what any idiot can do for $2.  I would question the cost effectiveness of any design done by software only, without optimization based on the experience and judgement of a professional engineer.

RE: Engineers only push a button

Elastic,
What do you mean, are engineers equivalent in knowledge to an idiot? Or is that a saying invented by some MBA?
Software can be bad or good - it all depends how much good engineering judgement, Code compliance, and input checking (anti-GIGO) went into the programming.
Before software was used, we didn't have enough time to check everything- software can make us much better engineers by freeing us of the mundane calculator-punching.
The other edge of the sword is the "Engineer-in-a-box" aspect, as this post is discussing.

RE: Engineers only push a button

I worked for a firm that like many firms utilized FEA software. Unfortunately, they put the burden of learning the software on the individual. Even after you learn how to make the software run, you still need to know what appropriate parameters to input (Think K-factor for example). Several engineers (myself included) weren't sure which K-factor was appropriate and therefore chose the software default of 1. As any seasoned person knows, a K-factor of 1 is not always conservative. This is precisely why knowledgable people are required to perform software assisted engineering. Merely knowing how to operate the software is not enough.

RE: Engineers only push a button

EddyC,
On the other hand, if you were doing the analysis manually, you would have used K=1 in the formula anyway, so using software did not create that problem.

RE: Engineers only push a button

SacreBleu,

I think that you misunderstood what I meant. Engineers are being asked to use software in substitution of learning the subject properly. To first learn something, you start with basic theory and hand calculations. Companies now want you to skip that process entirely and go straight to the software untrained. They think that the software does the thinking for you.

RE: Engineers only push a button

EddyC,
OK, I agree. The biggest example of that, to me, is the use of  a certain post-tension slab design software. Push a button, and out comes the garbage.

RE: Engineers only push a button

What most non-engineers do not understand is that garbage in = garbage out.  If you do not know where to begin, then you are lost before you even get started.  

Unfortunately, I believe that it will take more than one tradegy to stop the practice of allowing unqualified people design structures.

RE: Engineers only push a button

Having been around since slide rule days (in engineering school...actually had an HP45 by the time I got out!), I have seen the evolution of canned engineering and pushbutton design....I use programs for analysis, because they can do much more in less time than I can do by hand; however, design and code checking are processes I have not and will likely not give up to programming.

I also still do "hand checks" against the programs for validation, even though I've been using the same software for many years.

I'm of the opinion that engineers should do the data input...it's good training.  I still check it or run cross checks to validate.

RE: Engineers only push a button

Ron,
Do you mean you only run a frame analysis, to output only the reactions, shears, and moments?
Engineering software packages such as Enercalc (since 1983) do a fairly credible job of design, but they do only "one piece at a time", not good for production. The more sophisticated packages (Risa, RAM, etc) are more total design oriented.
Enercalc seems to be developing the same (from reading their latest website).
I got my Bachelor's in 1974...had a Heathkit "4-banger" in my senior year. One other student had HP's first calculator at the time.

RE: Engineers only push a button

About 10 years ago ENR had a very good article on the subject. It discussed an actual design done by young engineers of a large multi story building by FEA. The engineers could get the computer to do all sorts of neat things. Batch load data, great graphic outputs, make coffe, etc. However the concrete columns got slimmer as they approched the foundation. This escaped all the reviews except the final review. The reason the columns got slimmer as they apprached the bottom is that the input had the wrong sign ( hence the wrong direction) for gravity loads.
The point? Because we don't struggle anymore with why structures work, we are losing are ability to understand what is happening and thus our ability to engineer. Its okay for engineers who understand design but I have limited the use of computer analysis for some engineers I have hired until they had a better feel for hand analysis.

RE: Engineers only push a button

DRC,
Good point. I am an employee, and am expected to do 4 times as much production as pre-software, so I have no qualms abot using software and Excell. Actually, the Excell is becoming my main method.

RE: Engineers only push a button

I would always have my engineers perform a handcalc before using a design tool.  Even the company validated spreadsheet or a simple model on RISA, I would have them do a check and compare the results with the computer output.  Sure it costs the company a little extra for their time, but I think it is a good training tool.

Excel is great...  very dangerous at the same time.  Imagine a tiny error in a formula in your commonly used design task.  Just like CAD, excel is a curse and a blessing.

RE: Engineers only push a button

I was fortunate that my first two bosses believed in hand calculations.  Engineering is becoming such a fast pace industry.  I've also had a boss that wanted you to produce work faster and faster, at whatever the cost (so it seemed).  

I think we need to slow down and make sure that new engineers do have time to do plenty of hand calculations before introducing them to the software.  And their first time on the software should be validated by hand calculations.  It's so easy now days to be thrown into the deep end of the pool without a good life vest so to speak.  

Generations before me have such a good grasp of theory and common sense engineering, but my generation and later (BCE 1998) aren't getting that.  We don't seem to realize that most Bachelors in engineering programs DO NOT provide an engineer with enough practice and engineering judgement to just jump into design work so quickly.  Even though I do not have my masters, I feel that it is becoming more and more necessary as more is demanded so quickly for new engineers.  For the most part we are not training our new crop of engineers to be prepared for the road ahead, and that spells disaster.  And I firmly believe that if you don't have the engineering background that you should NOT be doing the design work to begin with.

RE: Engineers only push a button

g'day

i too agree with the last several posts, about FE being a loaded gun, and how ecveryone should be able to do simple hand calcs to "sanity check" their results.

however, i disagree (for what it's worth !) with the astructurale about filling the experience gap with a post-grad degree.  i think you get experience by doing, and would favour the return of co-op or apprenticeship programs.  

RE: Engineers only push a button

I wonder how many of these peope worked on the new air bus that few last week??

SBI
Central Ne.,USA

RE: Engineers only push a button

rb1957,

I agree that post-grad degrees are not the general solution though it may benefit some to do one after a few years of experience in industry to get the theoretical background to what thye have learnt.

I have commented several times on this list on the need for engineers to understand a design area before using software to design in it.
Too many designers see software as a solution to their lack of understanding of design tasks. If they do not understand a design area, such as PT design, they purchase software to do it for them hoping it will make up for their lack of knowledge. And in doing so they pick the biggest blackest black box they can find because it asppears they have to know the least to use it. Little do they realise that they actually have to understand it more themselves the blacker the box they pick. SacreBlue's comment above regarding certain PT design software is a good example of this.

Software should be a calculation tool used in the hands of an experienced designer to make his design quicker and allow him to iterate his design better.

To answer a question in SacreBlue's first post, many concrete design software packages do not check ductility, especially the FE ones.  

RE: Engineers only push a button

The so-called engineers who rely fully on computer output to make up for their lack of understanding of engineering concepts and methods are not worthy of being called "engineers".  They would be less than mediocre engineering technicians at best...

RE: Engineers only push a button

I remember when I started using my first FEA program.  It was a whole different way to structural design.  I realized that my job had changed from selecting the most efficient method of analysis and then doing the calcualtions, to one of generating a model, solving, and then doing hand calculations to verify the results.  Was it less wear and tear?  Yes.  Was it easier intellectually?  In my opinion no.  The fact that a computer program runs from start through to completion is not sufficient.  There still needs to be engineering judgement.

-Mike

RE: Engineers only push a button

Elastic

The quote is:
To define it rudely but not ineptly, engineering is the art of doing that well with one dollar, which any bungler can do with two after a fashion.
Duke of Wellington, Arthur Wellesley 1769-1852
British Statesman, Military Leader

RE: Engineers only push a button

I will admit   i started to draw on paper with a pencile, then had to INK it in ( yuk)to finnish it, I got into computers to get away from ink,
I still sit down and use the #1 computor on my shoulder for problems,
get out my engineering slide rule, referance books and a few yellow pads and pencile ans think it through, and yes I end up with a very good sound design that cost 75 cents instead of some of the 3D junk I see that can not even be made with out some speacial machine
That brings me to DFM   being a machinist also, I relearned to make sure what I drew up could be made in house with ease!

SBI
Central Ne.,USA

RE: Engineers only push a button

I remember about 20 years ago a cuvert collapsed durring a heavy rainstorm. The culvertwas under a 15 ft fill that supported the 4 track main line railroad from NY to Boston. When the culvet colapsed the resulting sinkhole swallowed on track and a catenary tower. Rail servisce was completely closed. My Dad's construction firm was called in to repair the damage and restore service. There were a see of white hats, but nobody was sure how to solve the problems. My fatherassetrained there were seveal wood signal poles available, plus some beams and other materials. Literally on the back of some envelopes from some mail he had on the dash, and with out even a calculator, he devloped a design to replace the catenary tower and restore service, complete with calculations in about 20 minutes. He reviewed with the engineers for the railroad and within a half hour we were working.
To me, that is engineering.

RE: Engineers only push a button

In my acedemic and professional career, I found that those who had the ability to do the "back-of-the-envelope" calculations had the best grasp of the concepts behind engineering, math, phsyics, etc.  Theirs is a rare breed.  Kudos to DRC1's father for doing what engineers are supposed to do!

RE: Engineers only push a button

perhaps this thread would be more appropiately titled "engineers don't just push buttons" ... unless they're on accountants, lawyers, managers ...

RE: Engineers only push a button

DRC1,

People like your father are the "true" engineers.  Thanks for sharing.


RE: Engineers only push a button

As a new EIT I have found that indeed several firms relay solely on the power of the computer.  I COOPed with a firm and was not allowed to even touch a computer program for my design for the first year, and just as a check afterwards.  If I designed something for the first time, it was always by hand, and then checked by STAAD or RISA.

I stayed with firm for a little after graduation, but soon left and joined a different firm.  This firm wanted everything by computer, and was told numerously times not to hand calc, we are paid to produce drawings and not calculations.  I no longer work at that firm.

Also, the comment about having graduate studies is a good point, but has its good and bad applications.  I am currently obtaining a MS, and have noticed the lack of understanding of constructability that many Graduate students lack without "real world" experience.  My COOP was far greater tool on understanding how to engineer, where my education has given me the tools to understand these practices.

Last thought, most of you are probably high rank on the engineer scale than a year old EIT, but when you interview with firms they do not ask if you understand concepts, but most ask what programs are you able to utilize.  Catch 22?

RE: Engineers only push a button

to DJYork,
actually, i do ask applicants to solve a simply supported beam, and i hope you'd be dismayed by the dismal proportion who can do it (even with help).

RE: Engineers only push a button

Regarding requiring a masters degree:  I don't believe that this can replace experience and the necessary learning that must occur particularlly in the first two years as a practicing EIT, however, I have found that my colleges that have the best grasp of theory are the ones that have their masters degrees.  Once they are able to pair that knowledge with real life experience it adds up to one great combination.  There are some who are gifted, and theory comes naturally, but for most of us, myself included I feel a masters would be beneficial.  I just wish I would have gone ahead and done it instead of working first.  Once you're out of school it is much harder to go back, although I know some who have done it.  

I do envy those engineers who can do calculations on a napkin and come up with great solutions.  It is a gift, and one that hopefully the rest of us can get after many many years of experience.

RE: Engineers only push a button

I agree with astructurale 100%.  I have a masters and I believe it made a huge difference starting to work in the "real world".  Because of my more extensive graduate education, I caught on more quickly to the different concepts and situations I encountered.  I also discovered a lot of things I learned through work experience never could've been taught in an academic environment.  

Every person (and engineer) is different and learns differently.  For me, it turned out to be a great preparatory tool.

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