Engineers only push a button
Engineers only push a button
(OP)
hi to all,
only a question about current structural and seismic engineering practice worldwide
in my Country, engineers usually design R/C structures using software that, once you've set geometry and material properties, make structural check and give you directly design drawings
in this way even an informatic engineer can design a hospital in a seismic area, just drawing members geometry, pushing "run" in a FEM package, and printing drawing output, without even making sure wheather his sections are ductile or not
when he's not sure, he only adds reinforcement to feel safe
in this way most people who do not have a BS in engineering can design structures, have their design signed by a professional engineer, and submit their project, resulting this way more competitive than who spends years understanding principles and practice and tries to do things better
there're lot of people who think PUSHOVER analysis is just pushing a button
does the same happen in your Country too?
only a question about current structural and seismic engineering practice worldwide
in my Country, engineers usually design R/C structures using software that, once you've set geometry and material properties, make structural check and give you directly design drawings
in this way even an informatic engineer can design a hospital in a seismic area, just drawing members geometry, pushing "run" in a FEM package, and printing drawing output, without even making sure wheather his sections are ductile or not
when he's not sure, he only adds reinforcement to feel safe
in this way most people who do not have a BS in engineering can design structures, have their design signed by a professional engineer, and submit their project, resulting this way more competitive than who spends years understanding principles and practice and tries to do things better
there're lot of people who think PUSHOVER analysis is just pushing a button
does the same happen in your Country too?






RE: Engineers only push a button
What did you mean by checking if sections are ductile? Doesn't the software check this?
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
I cannot begin to imagine trying to do something like this with R/C buildings in seismic areas even if reviewed by a PE.
This, however, makes me wonder how many engineers use drafters or techs to assist them in inputting info. to large scale programs such as RAM, SAP or PCA to design buildings. Even though we have programs like these, there is still quite a few things that they won't do or that have to be modified.
What scares me is that someday a non-engineering manager will eventually make a decision to save money by using unqualified people to do design work which may possibly lead to some tragedy. Hopefully, our licensing laws in the US will prevent this, but how about other countries or offshore engineering?
RE: Engineers only push a button
At least that is my experience.
RE: Engineers only push a button
It is already happening. I used to work for a company that offshored engineering, and the engineering was being progressively done more by draftsmen "trained" to operate the company's "in-house" design software.
Very bad trend. The Licensing authority in my home state is very lax about these matters....
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
What do you mean, are engineers equivalent in knowledge to an idiot? Or is that a saying invented by some MBA?
Software can be bad or good - it all depends how much good engineering judgement, Code compliance, and input checking (anti-GIGO) went into the programming.
Before software was used, we didn't have enough time to check everything- software can make us much better engineers by freeing us of the mundane calculator-punching.
The other edge of the sword is the "Engineer-in-a-box" aspect, as this post is discussing.
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
On the other hand, if you were doing the analysis manually, you would have used K=1 in the formula anyway, so using software did not create that problem.
RE: Engineers only push a button
I think that you misunderstood what I meant. Engineers are being asked to use software in substitution of learning the subject properly. To first learn something, you start with basic theory and hand calculations. Companies now want you to skip that process entirely and go straight to the software untrained. They think that the software does the thinking for you.
RE: Engineers only push a button
OK, I agree. The biggest example of that, to me, is the use of a certain post-tension slab design software. Push a button, and out comes the garbage.
RE: Engineers only push a button
Unfortunately, I believe that it will take more than one tradegy to stop the practice of allowing unqualified people design structures.
RE: Engineers only push a button
I also still do "hand checks" against the programs for validation, even though I've been using the same software for many years.
I'm of the opinion that engineers should do the data input...it's good training. I still check it or run cross checks to validate.
RE: Engineers only push a button
Do you mean you only run a frame analysis, to output only the reactions, shears, and moments?
Engineering software packages such as Enercalc (since 1983) do a fairly credible job of design, but they do only "one piece at a time", not good for production. The more sophisticated packages (Risa, RAM, etc) are more total design oriented.
Enercalc seems to be developing the same (from reading their latest website).
I got my Bachelor's in 1974...had a Heathkit "4-banger" in my senior year. One other student had HP's first calculator at the time.
RE: Engineers only push a button
The point? Because we don't struggle anymore with why structures work, we are losing are ability to understand what is happening and thus our ability to engineer. Its okay for engineers who understand design but I have limited the use of computer analysis for some engineers I have hired until they had a better feel for hand analysis.
RE: Engineers only push a button
Good point. I am an employee, and am expected to do 4 times as much production as pre-software, so I have no qualms abot using software and Excell. Actually, the Excell is becoming my main method.
RE: Engineers only push a button
Excel is great... very dangerous at the same time. Imagine a tiny error in a formula in your commonly used design task. Just like CAD, excel is a curse and a blessing.
RE: Engineers only push a button
I think we need to slow down and make sure that new engineers do have time to do plenty of hand calculations before introducing them to the software. And their first time on the software should be validated by hand calculations. It's so easy now days to be thrown into the deep end of the pool without a good life vest so to speak.
Generations before me have such a good grasp of theory and common sense engineering, but my generation and later (BCE 1998) aren't getting that. We don't seem to realize that most Bachelors in engineering programs DO NOT provide an engineer with enough practice and engineering judgement to just jump into design work so quickly. Even though I do not have my masters, I feel that it is becoming more and more necessary as more is demanded so quickly for new engineers. For the most part we are not training our new crop of engineers to be prepared for the road ahead, and that spells disaster. And I firmly believe that if you don't have the engineering background that you should NOT be doing the design work to begin with.
RE: Engineers only push a button
i too agree with the last several posts, about FE being a loaded gun, and how ecveryone should be able to do simple hand calcs to "sanity check" their results.
however, i disagree (for what it's worth !) with the astructurale about filling the experience gap with a post-grad degree. i think you get experience by doing, and would favour the return of co-op or apprenticeship programs.
RE: Engineers only push a button
SBI
Central Ne.,USA
RE: Engineers only push a button
I agree that post-grad degrees are not the general solution though it may benefit some to do one after a few years of experience in industry to get the theoretical background to what thye have learnt.
I have commented several times on this list on the need for engineers to understand a design area before using software to design in it.
Too many designers see software as a solution to their lack of understanding of design tasks. If they do not understand a design area, such as PT design, they purchase software to do it for them hoping it will make up for their lack of knowledge. And in doing so they pick the biggest blackest black box they can find because it asppears they have to know the least to use it. Little do they realise that they actually have to understand it more themselves the blacker the box they pick. SacreBlue's comment above regarding certain PT design software is a good example of this.
Software should be a calculation tool used in the hands of an experienced designer to make his design quicker and allow him to iterate his design better.
To answer a question in SacreBlue's first post, many concrete design software packages do not check ductility, especially the FE ones.
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
-Mike
RE: Engineers only push a button
The quote is:
To define it rudely but not ineptly, engineering is the art of doing that well with one dollar, which any bungler can do with two after a fashion.
Duke of Wellington, Arthur Wellesley 1769-1852
British Statesman, Military Leader
RE: Engineers only push a button
I still sit down and use the #1 computor on my shoulder for problems,
get out my engineering slide rule, referance books and a few yellow pads and pencile ans think it through, and yes I end up with a very good sound design that cost 75 cents instead of some of the 3D junk I see that can not even be made with out some speacial machine
That brings me to DFM being a machinist also, I relearned to make sure what I drew up could be made in house with ease!
SBI
Central Ne.,USA
RE: Engineers only push a button
To me, that is engineering.
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
RE: Engineers only push a button
People like your father are the "true" engineers. Thanks for sharing.
RE: Engineers only push a button
I stayed with firm for a little after graduation, but soon left and joined a different firm. This firm wanted everything by computer, and was told numerously times not to hand calc, we are paid to produce drawings and not calculations. I no longer work at that firm.
Also, the comment about having graduate studies is a good point, but has its good and bad applications. I am currently obtaining a MS, and have noticed the lack of understanding of constructability that many Graduate students lack without "real world" experience. My COOP was far greater tool on understanding how to engineer, where my education has given me the tools to understand these practices.
Last thought, most of you are probably high rank on the engineer scale than a year old EIT, but when you interview with firms they do not ask if you understand concepts, but most ask what programs are you able to utilize. Catch 22?
RE: Engineers only push a button
actually, i do ask applicants to solve a simply supported beam, and i hope you'd be dismayed by the dismal proportion who can do it (even with help).
RE: Engineers only push a button
I do envy those engineers who can do calculations on a napkin and come up with great solutions. It is a gift, and one that hopefully the rest of us can get after many many years of experience.
RE: Engineers only push a button
Every person (and engineer) is different and learns differently. For me, it turned out to be a great preparatory tool.