CalculationCenter
CalculationCenter
(OP)
As I looked over posts in the spreadsheet forum, I started to wonder why more people don't use a program like CalculationCenter (CC2) from Wolfram Research. I admit I am not very experienced with Excel and have not used it much. Most of my calcualtions over the years has been with BASIC and VisualBASIC, but during the last year I am using CC2 more and VB less.
If anyone is interested in this topic please respond. I am curious about what others have experienced with calculations and various software answers. In other words, an overview, some personal opinions, perspectives, and so on.
A brief background on CC2. It seems to be a lite version of mathematica but with some special commands, and costs only $295. Mathematica, Maple, and Matlab are very expensive, especially for people like me who have to buy their own software. Even Mathcad is getting expensive at $1200.
I guess what I'm saying is that I like CC2, but would like to know what other engineers think.
-Mike
If anyone is interested in this topic please respond. I am curious about what others have experienced with calculations and various software answers. In other words, an overview, some personal opinions, perspectives, and so on.
A brief background on CC2. It seems to be a lite version of mathematica but with some special commands, and costs only $295. Mathematica, Maple, and Matlab are very expensive, especially for people like me who have to buy their own software. Even Mathcad is getting expensive at $1200.
I guess what I'm saying is that I like CC2, but would like to know what other engineers think.
-Mike





RE: CalculationCenter
RE: CalculationCenter
The other programs I mentioned are relatively well known in highly technical fields but don't seem to be widely used by the 'average' engineer. Their cost is in the range $1200 to $1900.
My son son has used Mathcad for years as he went through college and now at his job. It's all very nice but I just never got interested until last year when I purchased CC2. It has surprised me how much I like this software and am interested in the opinions of others.
I'm not complaining about spreadsheets, but am curious how CC2 fits in the general picture with the other tools such as spreadsheets, programing, calculators, special purpose software, pencil and paper, etc.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
I used to use Excel in most of my calculations, if required other program I preferred Matlab
Thank you for the new information
Regards
RE: CalculationCenter
I have read that Matlab is preferred by engineers over the other high end systems probably because of its powerful matrix capabilites, however it costs about $1900.
I am a structural engineer. My day consists mostly of adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. Sometimes a lot of it. I am interested in ways to save time and eliminate errors, but with spreadsheets and calculation programs I occasionally wonder about the saving time part of it.
Thanks for the comments.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
Therefore, since CC2 shows all the formulae, what advantage is that?
RE: CalculationCenter
If you were inclined to take a course requiring such software anyway,the cheap software would be a great added benefit.
ihmo, Maple is a formiddable tool in an engineer's arsenal.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: CalculationCenter
Part of my problem here is that I am not a very experienced spreadsheet user. The reason for this is because years ago I tended to use BASIC for most of my programing tasks and as a result became more comfortable with it. I think BASIC and Excel are similar in that the programing is done in the background and the output is what you want to make it.
I am currently working on a program to do AISC ASD code checking calculations. As you point out, you don't want see all those equations everytime you do a calculation. CC2 and Mathcad allow you to collapse sections as needed.
So is CalculationCenter just a fun toy, or a useful engineering tool? Is it as good as or better than other tools, or not? I'm not sure.
Thanks for the input.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
Since you are also a Structural, and you imply that Excel may not save time, I am floored by that statement. Even though Excel is somewhat limited in math abilities, and very limited in matrix capabilities, it has been a trusted workhorse for me (even tho it sometimes "crashes"). What do you expect from it? Do you have advanced needs, such as running a continuous beam with complex loading? I would certainly like to hear from someone if they have been able to do that on Excel.
RE: CalculationCenter
RE: CalculationCenter
Thanks for the comments.
I have been writing programs (first with BASIC, then VisualBasic) for many years and really do appreciate the time savings possible with a well designed program. However it takes time to write these programs, and a few times (Ok, more than a few) I spent more time creating a program than I ended up saving by doing the task the 'old' way.
When I made the comment about saving time in the previous post, what I was thinking about at the moment was programing something that you might do only once or twice. If you can do several pages of hand calcs and get them right or not have something change, then that might be the way to go. But you never know when something is going to change and when it does it usually is more work to recover with hand calcs than a computer solution.
Regards,
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
Ok, we have a vote for Maple.
I too was tempted to try a student package of one of the math programs but apparantly just wasn't that interested. Several times I looked into Mathcad, but each time it had gone up considerably in price.
Maybe some day I get one of the 'big' programs like Maple, Mathematica, or Matlab, but for now I am sufficiently entertained with CalculationCenter.
Thanks for your comments,
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
Maple looks very useful to someone just starting out to program at work.
RE: CalculationCenter
Best regards
Morten
RE: CalculationCenter
corus
RE: CalculationCenter
http://search.ebay.com/mathcad_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8
As for the visibility of equations, that's VERY useful for documentation, particularly if you use meaningful symbol nomenclature. It also makes it infinitely easier to figure out what you did 6 months ago. Sometimes, the equation trace in Excel can be quite tortuous. Mathcad's ability to use range and indexed variables significantly simplifies some calculations. Mathcad has a Solver functionality similar to Excel, but the process is documented directly in the sheet and the process is much more transparent and understandable:
Given blah=blegh find(x)=
Every tool has its place and appropriate applications. Matlab's strength is in matrix math and system simulations. Mathcad's strength is its graphical interface. Excel's strength is in its table calculations.
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
Although I like MathCAD is because it is explicit, I can also make my worksheets compact by creating reuseable functions, inserting references to external files, etc.
The equation formatting in MathCAD may not be presentation quality, but it's good enough that I've used it in presentations and technical papers simply by cutting and pasting it.
Works pays for MathCAD, so price isn't much of an object. If I ever have a personal need for similar capabilities, however, I'll take a close look at CC2. Thanks for pointing it out, MrMikee.
Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys - www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell
RE: CalculationCenter
The sales pitch can always be made to the advantage of the one doing the sales pitch.
Another comparison - http:/
VB and Excel are very powerful programs and they are relatively inexpensive. It doesn't make any sense to completely replace these progrms with Maple or Mathematica at a cost of about $1900 each, but I find it interesting the level of sophistication available in CalculationCenter for only $295.
It has changed the balance somewhat, and that's the reason I brought it up in the spreadsheet area.
Thanks for your comments,
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
Some of the big discounts on Mathcad are student versions. Also XP users should be careful which version they buy because at some point Mathcad became XP only, and I don't remember where that point is.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
This topic appears to be a sales pitch however comparing this with a 'popular' spreadhseet
I don't think so, but I'm sure you can at least be thankful the OP didn't write:
"What's the best calculation program?" Or CAD program. Or FEA program. Or...
Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys - www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell
RE: CalculationCenter
It is very similar to Matlab, except that it is free. It is remarkably good. There are many toolboxes available for it, including an FEA package.
To be honest I found the learning curve for Matlab was a great deal quicker than Mathematica, which I never really got to grips with.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
Free is good.
I have just downloaded it to do some experimenting.
Thanks,
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
What about TK Solver 5 and Interactive Roark's for you structural folks.
TK five also has the ability to use EXCEL AS THE INTERFACE.
You can do engineering calculations in TK and package a free app with the TK Player. Check out WWW.uts.com for a piece of software that has been around since before all the rest yet has been improved with excel users in mind.
Never heard of it? No suprise they never advertize!!!
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No I don't work for UTS...just a happy user.
RE: CalculationCenter
Fortunately or unfortunately, my job never quite required enough math for me to get proficient at Mathcad.
Scilab sounds pretty neat, but I'll probably just stick with Excel and Mathcad 2k for now.
Wasn't TK Solver the pioneer about 20 years ago?
Regards
Jay
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: CalculationCenter
In my brief tour through the world of design (I'm usually in fabrication), the office I was in DIDN'T HAVE MATHCAD. I thought that that was almost as bad as not letting us have pencils and paper. People used a lot of Excel worksheets, but if you wanted to show your work, you did it longhand.
I wound up sort of faking MathCAD by extensive use of the STRING function in Excel. It tripled my time to set up a worksheet, but at least I could show my work in a legible and easily modifiable manner.
Ridiculous.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: CalculationCenter
gives an extremely brief overview of CC2.
I can't get a picture of whether you can write a 10 page live mathematical report inside CC2, which you can in Mathcad.
Frankly I haven't seen anything else that even comes close to MathCAD when I'm exploring new concepts, but that looks as though it would do it.
However, in my current job I am using Matlab more and more, partly because they won't spring for MathCAD, and partly because we already have a lot of Matlab. I think Excel is inappropriate in an ISO9000 organisation as well.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: CalculationCenter
I haven't used MathCAD but what I have seen suggests that MathCAD produces a very nice looking report. The CC2 print out is more plain looking but fine for me. The longest notebook I worked on was about 20 pages long and it would run very fast. My son works with MathCAD but I don't really know the two compare. My guess is that both would work out well for most engineers doing everyday engineering things, but if you are going to do a PhD or work in a research facility, you would be better off with Maple, Mathematica, or Matlab.
The following links compare the 'big' systems.
http://amath.colorado.edu/computing/mmm/index.html
htt
Note when looking through these links that the syntax in CC2 is generally the same as Mathematica except it has a smaller set of commands and some of the commands have been replace with the CC2 equivalent.
Anyone interested should download the 15 day free trial to make sure it's something they want. For someone like me with many years of BASIC programing it was a real shift in thinking from what I was used to. And I didn't like it at first.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
1) version control
2) How do you know that someone hasn't changed the result of a safety related calculation by inserting a cell with the following pseudologic
ans=if (and ((ans>x),( ans<x*1.0000001)),wronganswer,ans)
Where wronganswer causes your bridge to fall down. No raesonable amount of error checking by comparing handcalcs with output could catch that, so in theory you need to check the formula in EVERY cell.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
The "black box" nature of the spreadsheet formulae is more of a concern.
In theory anything that generates ascii data files should be suspect as well, no, since those can be tampered with? Or is outright crime not part of the ISO consideration?
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: CalculationCenter
If your process calls for lying and cheating, and it's documented, and you follow it; you, too, can be ISO9000 certified. Therefore, any criminal operation can also be ISO certified. [Courtesy of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe]
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
We do 'error check' by building and testing prototypes, a luxury you don't have.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
Man you've just created a nightmare - the Mafia is going to go ISO 9000 now. I can just see the future mugging victim being handed a "customer feedback survey" to fill out. Maybe with an incentive being a discount on his next mugging?
Actually, that last idea isn't mine, thanks Mr. Pratchett.
RE: CalculationCenter
How can I do that for a 20 Mb spreadsheet?
Actually there are a couple of ways to improve the integrity of a ss, but they aren't even moderately foolproof.
a) use the ss for data entry only and use VBA for everything computational.
b) write protect everything except data entry
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
Greg,
You issued a challenge and here is a possible solution. If you select display formulas mode and save as .CSV, you can open the .CSV file in Word and do a version comparison.
Brute force and clearly inelegant, but presumably doable, although I'll confess that I've not tried this on a 20MB file.
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
It's not pretty but it should work. Sometimes you can paint yourself into a corner.
I have found that when writing programs, you don't always know where you are going until you get there.
At least for me.
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
I agree, a Winmerge report on the csv of that display would satisfy my theoretical desire to make sure that the code is unchanged.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
'Function to display cell formula
'copied from Eng-Tips thread770-37797 12/17/02 electricpete post
Function GetFormula(Cell)
GetFormula = Cell.Formula
End Function
I have it in a "General" spreadsheet that I use as a template to start all of my spreadsheets. "General" also has separate Introduction, Input, Model, and Report sheets to aid in keeping things understandable and documented.
RE: CalculationCenter
There is one small hiccup, if you are using named cells (vs just cell address), the name won't show up in the getformula display unless the name was created before you created the formula. Sometimes I end up having to go back and re-enter formula's just to capture a later-created name in the getformula display.
But when I have to work in excel, getformula defintely helps make it less user un-friendly.
=====================================
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RE: CalculationCenter
There is a addin which sells for $49 called Mathlook For Excel which will display formulas and assist in renaming. It also will display associated formulas as one formula.
try googling MathLook For Excel
RE: CalculationCenter
So even if Excel can be easily "tampered" with, I don't even feel 100% confident with anything else.
Amen.
RE: CalculationCenter
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
RE: CalculationCenter
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
The other major advantage of MathCAD is the ability to make the formlation look just like the code formulation. There's no question that a formula is correct if it looks identical to the one in the code. It's very hard to have faith in the cryptic formulation in excel.
RE: CalculationCenter
If you want the formulas like mathcad in excel spend $99 and get MathLook for Excel.
RE: CalculationCenter
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
IRStuff, the equivalent of "whiteout" in PDF. I assume that's things like putting big white boxes over parts one doesn't want to show.
Is there any way to get a new PDF from that modified PDF that captures the modified image other than saving the PDF as a bitmap and then re-PDFifying it, which loses all the ability to select text?
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: CalculationCenter
The correct approach is to fix the problem in the original application, e.g., Word, then PDF it. Of course, this results in a bitmapped document, but the alternative was obviously much worse for security.
In fact, it would seem that these guys somehow violated security rules by not printing out, blacking out(?) and then scanning the document, then PDF. This procedure is the accepted means of sanitizing classified documents. The electronic transfer of unclassified material from a classified computer would require a byte by byte examination of the resultant file to ensure that classified data did not get accidentally incorporated. Had they done that, the PDF would have never gotten distributed, since the hidden classified material would have been readily apparent.
TTFN
RE: CalculationCenter
An upgrade for CalculationCenter2 is now available and is called Mathematica CalcCenter3. It costs $595. As you might have noted in my original posts and the reason I brought up the issue in this forum, was because I thought CC2 was a good alternate for spreadsheets in some technical areas and was a good value. And this might still be true to some degree but a doubling of its price does effect the overall equation. I wanted to let anyone here who was interested know that the program and and its price have changed.
I do wonder why this happened however. Wolfram Research claims that the product has substantially improved. Probably, but is it twice as good? I have no idea. It is possible (and this is just a hunch) that someone thought CalculationCenter left too much money on the table. Since MathCAD is now up to $1200 the mid priced region for this type of software has been left open for other options, CC2 being just one of many.
Anyways, I've ordered my upgrade. I just hope they added some of the things I asked for.
But still, I think it's been an interesting topic.
Thanks,
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
To be sure, as Mr Mikee says, sometimes it takes longer to create the spreadsheet than to do the work by hand but then, if its is a useful spreadsheet one can assume that isome one some where also faces exactly the same problem and can save themselves the problems of writing the spreadsheet if he can borrow yours.
For those of you interested, www.cheresources.com is currently running a spreadsheet competition. Some submitted spreadsheets are available free to others and some can recoup you some small (maybe not so small?) returns.
Excel also has the ability to react to live data input from process instruments. I'm not saying other program don't, just that you can get a lot of use out of a program you get anyway with your Office setup. Then too there are some pretty good Excel forums and add-ins available. (Be nice if some of you guys can suggest some good free add-ins).
Myself, I am pretty simple minded and most all of my spreadsheets make extensive use of the "IF" function which can be pretty powerful but I do find the confusion between forms menu and VB a pain when it comes to using drop downs etc.
My real big issue is with graphing. With multiple variables I would like a scale per variable but in Excel, once you've used up primary and secondary axis options there is a problem.
At this point I wonder about whether Excel could be more flexible (i.e. probably more prone to crash) or if there is a more appropriate program.
For a one-off requirement any investment may be too much and I guess this applies to us all.
A big question is, how about the LINUX alternative? does any one have experience of that?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: CalculationCenter
-Mike
RE: CalculationCenter
It's not ready for primetime in my opinion, in particular the graphing was terrible, in the version I used.
I've been told to use Gnumeric, on linux, but haven't so far as I've been working on a project that has left me unwilling to reinstall Linux on my main machine, and I use KDE not Gnome.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: CalculationCenter
You may find this of interest. Info on excel graphing:
http://peltiertech.com/
RE: CalculationCenter
If the doc is in standard (text/graphics) PDF, a full version of Acrobat (depending on rev, you may need pro) allows you to edit ('touch up') text, move or delete objects, etc.
Some graphic editors (Corel Draw, Illustrator) can read a PDF, edit it, return it to PDF as text/graphcs.
You only convert it to image at your choice. (and with some effort)
regards
Jay
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/