"Engineer" in New York State?
"Engineer" in New York State?
(OP)
A week ago I met with the Owner and the Engineer on site to discuss the working drawings for a residential addition. The Engineer agreed to have a set of working drawings ready for the Owner "in about a week". The Engineer introduced himself by saying "I AM AN ENGINEER".
When the Owner presented me with the finished drawings this morning, they weren't stamped. Next to his signature, the Engineer listed himself as "builder/designer". The code enforcement office will only accept a set of stamped drawings. I asked the Owner to call the Engineer on his cell-phone. The Engineer said that he could have somebody else stamp the drawings, but it would cost a little extra.
If this guy has a degree in Civil Engineering, but isn't a PE, does he have any business presenting himself as an "Engineer" on a job-site in the State of New York? I am only a lowly tech, but as far as I know, if someone isn't a Registered Design Professional, and can't stamp a set of drawings, then they are no more an Engineer than I am. Am I right?
When the Owner presented me with the finished drawings this morning, they weren't stamped. Next to his signature, the Engineer listed himself as "builder/designer". The code enforcement office will only accept a set of stamped drawings. I asked the Owner to call the Engineer on his cell-phone. The Engineer said that he could have somebody else stamp the drawings, but it would cost a little extra.
If this guy has a degree in Civil Engineering, but isn't a PE, does he have any business presenting himself as an "Engineer" on a job-site in the State of New York? I am only a lowly tech, but as far as I know, if someone isn't a Registered Design Professional, and can't stamp a set of drawings, then they are no more an Engineer than I am. Am I right?





RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
He should be reported to the local professional engineering organization ASAP.
Unless the situation is resolved correctly, YOU should run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible, since the fallout could very well touch on you well.
TTFN
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I don't think that I see any fallout for me. I am NOT going to proceed until I have a complete set of working drawings with the seal and signature of a qualified and competent Registered Design Professional. Period.
Best regards,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
This should be investigated as it clearly hurts our profession.
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Unless you can get an independent engineering review, you would not be able to demonstrate due diligence.
TTFN
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
http://www.op.nysed.gov/pe.htm
Regards
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Some very good conversation is presented here for you. I think one thing that was overlooked is that you may have been harmed from this. If not by money, then by time. And our profession may have been harmed, if not by errors and mistakes, then by improper practice. Everyone looses. You will find the State of NY is very professional at dealing with these issues. Follow PSE's link, engage the people at the NY Board and ask their guidance. The process of reporting a suspected violation is very simple, and is done that way to take the burden off of you since you are not the problem. You will find a lot of very helpful engineers that will guide you as to what needs to be done. You will be helpoing youself, as you already cleary seem to understand, and you will be helping that individual that may be pretending to be an engineer at the same time.
Let us know how you make out...
Bob
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I am very greatful for the time that you and the other guys have taken to clarify things for me. I won't let you down. Before I report this guy, I am going to be absolutely certain that there hasn't been any misunderstandings on the Owners part, or on my part. So far, my attempts to contact the Engineer? in question have been fruitless. His time is running out. I am not going to ignore what has transpired. There is going to be a resolution to this, and I will keep you posted.
I know that this site is for Professional Engineers, so I seldom post anything, but I have gained much from you guys, and I hope that you don't mind me hanging around. You are all doing more good here than you will ever know.
Best wishes to all,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
, not PEs specifically. In the US, a large portion of the engineering community is covered by the industrial exemption, and are therefore not required to be PEs
TTFN
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
John
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I don't get your point. Are you saying that michel** shouldn't post here cause he's not a PE?
In all the state that I am registerd in you don't need to be a PE or even an architech to design your own house. You may or not need to be an architech to design houses. There are restrictions on square footage, spans etc.
I am pretty sure if you design roads and drainage systems that carry water down to where the ducks and fish live you have to be a PE.
I don't care if Michel*** is a janitor in an engineering firm or what, He's brough up an interesting case and I would like to know how it turns out.
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Read more carefully. IRStuff actually said the opposite.
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
If you are welcoming me aboard; Thank you, I am quite honored. You guys and gals have my deepest respect. I am guided daily in my work by members of your profession. It is very comforting to have a good engineer close at hand, so that I don't get blind-sided by the things that I so often miss, no matter how careful I am.
jsummerfield,
I have contacted a Registered Design Professional who has no connection with the original individual in question. We are going to start from scratch, and we are going to do this job right. To quote an old friend, "This is a construction project, not a home for wayward children".
Best regards,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
On my jobs: no stampy, no buildy. I do not wish to offend anyone, but I only use PEs. It sure is nice to see that seal and signature on my working drawings...
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
If it was not clear before, you're more than welcome to post your questions.
BJC,
I was specifically responding to Mike's concern that not being a PE was a requirement for posting. As I indicated in my post, the site is for engineering professionals, e.g., engineers, and not necessarily PEs.
TTFN
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
michaeldouglassewell took one such person to task using his professional standards and got cought up in a big problem in our profession, unlicensed practice. If that person professed to be an "engineer," offered services of an engineer, and wanted to get paid like an engineer, then even if the project didn't require an engineer, the person is in trouble.
The definition of public is anyone in need of engineering services not covered by the industry exempt clause. The definition of engineering includes those pipes that carry water to the ducks you talk about, anything electrical, mechanical, marine, environmental, structural, telephonic, power, etc....anything that requires the application of physical and engineering principals for the solution of a problem.
This is a big problem and as there are so few PE's among our ranks, it is only going to get worse. It is an interesting problem in that I am curious to see how we engineers react and I think it is great that michael, who is representing the public in my opinion, understood what to do in a case like this, and sought guidance. What are we to do with the other 99.99999% of the public that does not know what to do in a case like this?
Bob
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
You're right, you guys do have a big problem. It's not just Graduate Engineers who are not yet PEs. It's small General Contractors who have 2 year tech degrees, and aren't afraid to fling the word "Engineer" around with reckless abandon. I have run into several of these people on Contractor's forums, and I have always taken them to task. In each case, when they are exposed, they evaporate into thin air, just as my "Engineer" friend here in New York has done.
Check out this link: www.aibd.org
Some of these outfits are operating right on the very edge of what the law allows, and some individual members are going beyond.
What to do? IMO, stop ignoring these people, and start talking about the problem. The public is already paying the price for the deafening silence.
Best regards,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I’m a Professional Geologist who is just finishing a remodel/addition to my home. The design and drawing of my plans were done by a Professional Designer (NOT an Engineer) who worked with a P.E. on the engineering portion of the project. That P.E. worked with data provided by my Certified Engineering Geologist and a P.E./Geotechnical Engineer. They all worked together as a team, just as they were supposed to! The Professional Designer was able to provide all of the details (5 pages all totaled) in the drawings which allow me (as an owner/builder) to build the project.
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I don't mean to bash anyone. These guys are fine if they are working with an Architect or an Engineer, but working alone they can easily be blind-sided, because they are not fully qualified. I think that the days of these guys working alone are numbered, and rightly so.
Best regards,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I don't think we are bashing anyone including designers. All designers work for PE's if their work involves engineering. I don't think that is the problem.
As for a Certified Registered Design Professional, that means nothing in the States if you are providing engineering services to the public and is not a substitute for a PE stamp. If I saw that service being offered, I would report it to the appropriate State Licensure Board. I have my designers sign my drawings alongside my name and seal, but that is an internal QA/QC protocol and has nothing to do with State Regulations governing my seal.
This is a big problem, no doubt, and there are new derivatives of "engineer" being created every day. As michaeldouglasewell stated, our silence is beginning to affect the public in a negative way.
take care...
Bob
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
"there are new derivatives of "engineer" being created every day".
Yes, that was my point. A program of designers working with Engineers can benefit everyone involved if it is done properly. Using a designer as an inexpensive substitute for an Engineer is a big mistake. That is what is being promoted as a method by many people. I think that it is wrong, I think that it is dangerous, and I think that it hurts the Engineering Profession.
Best regards,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
I wanted to give you my insight as I am a NY PE:
a) In NYS you can call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a PE. But you need a PE to call yourself a Professional Engineer.
b) Is the Engineer that you are dealing with the one offering the engineering service? Or is he/she an employee of a PE who is offering the engineering service? An engineer employee of a PE doesn't need to be a PE as long as the PE employer is supervising & stamping the engineer employee's work.
c) In NYS, a PE can be hired to stamp the work of someone else PROVIDED that they do a thorough review.
Now bear in mind that all of the above applies to NYS. Other states have their own specific regulations which can and do vary. I suggest that you get NYS to send you a copy of their engineering regulations. You may as well learn it since you are interfacing with engineers and have already run into ethics issues.
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Thank you very much for your time, and your help.
There is much more to the story than I posted originally, and each day brings new surprises. At this point, it appears that the individual in question can best be described as FUBAR. Ever meet someone who lies just for the sport of it, even when they know that there is a 100% chance that they will be caught? If you haven't, I hope you never do. This character is bizarre. I think that I am dealing with a renegade tech here. I highly doubt that ANY Engineer would have anything to do with him.
Got a link for me on those regulations?
Thanks again,
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
http://
The laws of the State are clear in regard to unauthorized practice. Section 6512.1 of the Education Law makes it a class E felony for anyone not authorized to practice who practices or offers to practice or holds himself out as being able to practice professional engineering. Section 6509 defines professional misconduct as, among other things, permitting, aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to perform activities requiring a license; and, section 6512.2 makes it a class E felony for anyone, including a public official, to knowingly aid or abet three or more unlicensed persons practice a profession requiring a license.
Maui
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Thank you so much.
Wheels in motion, wheels in motion.
-Jerry Seinfeld
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
An entity not authorized to provide professional engineering services, such as a general contractor, can not subcontract with a licensed professional engineer in order to provide engineering services to a third party client. The basis for professional regulation is that the service of the professional must be provided directly from the professional to the client without any unlicensed third party between the client and the professional. This unlicensed third party may have other interests (such as financial) that could jeopardize the level and/or quality of the professional service received by the client.
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
-Mike
www.sewellconstruction.org
RE: "Engineer" in New York State?
Had there been any problems with his design, your client would have had no legal recourse, since the "engineer" wouldn't have been carrying any insurance.
TTFN