Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
(OP)
USA Engineers -- read it and weep!
www.ieee usa.org/ca reers/pdf/ employment survey2004 report.pdf
Also checkout www.aea.org
www.ieee
Also checkout www.aea.org
Ron





RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
15% caused by offshoring
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION: MARCH 2005
Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 110,000 in March, and the
unemployment rate declined to 5.2 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of
the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Several industries added jobs
over the month, including construction, mining, health care, and wholesale
trade.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Re: March 2005 employment situation:
One data point is never useful.
If you look at the last 7 years, the US is down an est. 3 million manufacturing jobs. That is considering only manufacturing jobs.
http:/
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
"Offshoring is Minor Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE"
Oh well, that wouldn't be as exciting and alarmist, would it? Your (generalising) wages are too high. You are lazy, process driven, and complacent. Your bosses are right to outsource your jobs.
Mind you, you don't read the other half of the story
"Australian Automotive Engineers in short supply because they find it so easy to get engineering work that was previously done in the USA because they are cheaper and better"
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
"NEWS from IEEE-USA
U.S. Technical Employment Falls by More Than 220,000 Workers from 2000 to 2004
Washington (3 March 2005) - The number of employed U.S. technical workers has fallen by 221,000 in six major computer and engineering job classifications from 2000 to 2004, according to data compiled by the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).
The largest drops occurred among computer programmers, followed by electrical and electronics engineers, then computer scientists and systems analysts. These declines were offset by substantial employment increases for computer and information systems managers, computer hardware engineers and computer software engineers.
"The drop in computer programmers and rise in managers reflects the trend toward offshoring of programming jobs and the resulting need for professionals to manage outsourced projects," IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse said.
According to the BLS, computer programmers have taken the biggest hit, with a drop of more than 24 percent -- from 745,000 in 2000 to 564,000 in 2004. In addition, the number of employed electrical and electronics engineers shrunk by 101,000, from 444,000 in 2000 to 343,000 last year, a decrease of nearly 23 percent. Computer scientists and systems analysts have experienced similar losses, dropping more than 16 percent, from 835,000 in 2000 to 700,000 in 2004.
However, employed computer and information systems managers have jumped from 228,000 in 2000 to 337,000 last year, a dramatic increase of almost 48 percent. Computer hardware engineers rose from 83,000 in 2000 to 96,000 in 2004, a nearly 16 percent increase. Employed computer software engineers have risen by 74,000, from 739,000 in 2000 to 813,000 in 2004, a 10 percent increase.
The table below summarizes the BLS data:
Job Classification
2000
2004
Change
Pct.
Computer Hardware Engineers
83,000
96,000
+13,000
+15.7
Computer & Info. Systems Managers
228,000
337,000
+109,000
+47.8
Computer Programmers
745,000
564,000
-181,000
-24.3
Computer Scientists & Systems Analysts
835,000
700,000
-135,000
-16.2
Computer Software Engineers
739,000
813,000
+74,000
+10.0
Electrical & Electronics Engineers
444,000
343,000
-101,000
-22.7
Total
3,074,000
2,853,000
-221,000
-7.2
"
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
The USA has traditionally been innovative and productive. This has justified your high wages. So stop whining about the jobs that are disappearing, go and invent another whole new industry and watch that grow. That's how your predecessors created the society you live in and see the benefits of.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I am a little confused with your condescending tone, Greg, but you are as sharp as usual.
1. My "high wage" can only be correlated to that of the other wage earners in my country. It should not be compared to that of the rest of the world. Costs are not the same across borders, so why should wages be?
2. The corporate "groupthink" in my country justifies moving jobs overseas through claims that they must in order to remain comptetitive. What a load of bull. I do not pay comparatively lower prices now for my purchases than my parents did 20 years ago. I never demanded the corporations in my country to give me lower prices at the cost of taking jobs away from my neighbors.
I do not think US corporations are doing any favors to Asian countries by sending jobs to them that only pay US$1.20 per day. That is only lending a form of indentured servantcy to those nations. Additionally, those same US corporations are exporting pollution to those countries for lack of proper controls. At the least, it is encouraging foreign equivalents to ignore industry practice of minimizing pollution for the simple ironic reason of being cheaper than the US facilities observing such regulations.
3. I'll pay higher prices any day if I know that 100% of my purchase goes to stregthen the domestic economy by paying domestic wages, buying domestic material, funding domestic R&D, and observing domestic environmental/safety regulations. I'm an American first and foremost, not a just a global "consumer".
4. Your idea of a "Just make something else up!" economy is a little hard to achieve when most of your raw ability to "make something" is somewhere else. Besides, if we do "invent another whole new industry", it'll soon be knocked-off by a foreign trading parter that does nothing to observe intellectual property rights.
I enjoy your posts, but we must agree to disagree here, Mr. Locock.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
1 "Costs are not the same across borders, so why should wages be? " You sell your services globally. The global customer does not care what your local cost of living is. All we see is "hours of productive engineering per dollar spent". Say you choose to live in an expensive neighborhood. Should you be paid more because of that?
2 "I do not pay comparatively lower prices now for my purchases than my parents did 20 years ago" yes you do. Adjusted for inflation (or average wages) you probably pay less for just about everything than they did, with the admitted exceptions of land, housing, medical care and shares. The latter I can explain easily, the first two are due primarily to increased demand, and medical care is an ongoing disaster, primarily driven by some surprisingly socialist practices in the land of the free. Grin.
3 "I'll pay higher prices any day if I know that 100% of my purchase goes to stregthen the domestic economy "
That's fine. All your countrymen buying stuff at walMart are rather working against you though. This is not, however, how the purchasing department of successful big companies work, in any country. Historically those countries with the least barriers to overseas trade have been the most robust economies (although it would be easy to find counterexamples). Protecting inefficient domestic industries is a way of storing up trouble. I agree that in times of transition it may be better to offer some short term relief to a struggling industry, but you'd better make sure that the quid pro quo is that the necessary restructuring takes place.
4 "if we do "invent another whole new industry", it'll soon be knocked-off by a foreign trading parter that does nothing to observe intellectual property rights" Well hang on, why should you get premium wages if you aren't innovating and you aren't doing things that other people can't? The alternative is to wait until somebody else innovates and then you knock it off.
If this generation of Americans is content to sit back and just do the same as everybody else, worldwide, then it is hardly surprising that their pay will fall to the same level as everybody elses. How can it be otherwise?
I think one reason we disagree is that the auto industry is already so far down the track of off shoring that I just accept that as normality, and learn to live with it. In the three cubicles next to mine we have one German, one American and one real Aussie. We recruit worldwide, and work, worldwide, using a worldwide set of suppliers, designing products that will be manufactured anywhere in the world for a worldwide set of customers. It sure beats making buggy whips for the local town.
/rant off/
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
<rant mode on>
The following is a reality check for all of you that are worried that your job will be off shored and you will find yourself unemployed:
1) If you are worried about that, you are probably in an industry or job category where that is very likely to happen. Stop worrying, and do something about it. Find a job in another industry, find a job in another field, go back to school and get trained in something else. Do something to add value to your skill set, quit worrying and whining about it and do something.
2) We can argue all day long about the morality of off shoring, but it is a fact of life, and is not going away. Market forces are such that certain activities will move to places where it is cheaper to do those activities. It happened to the steel industry; it happened to the call center industry, it is happening to the auto industry and it is and will continue to happen to the chemical industry. The genie has been let out of the global economy bottle. Face it and deal with it.
3) Just because your industry segment or your geographical area is losing jobs, don’t assume that is the case across engineering or across the US. There are segments of engineering where jobs are being added, and there are segments of engineering where jobs are going away. That will always be the case.
4) A nice high paying job in engineering is not a civil right, and no matter how many organizations you form, it is very unlikely to ever be a civil right. If engineering is not making you a decent living, please go find something else to do. In addition, an engineering job in your preferred geographical location is not a civil right. If you are not willing to relocate for an engineering job, you have no right to complain in my opinion. If relocating is not an option, acquire skills that will get you gainful employment in your preferred geographical area. I hear Doctors and Lawyers are in demand everywhere….
5) I find it interesting that there seems to be two opposing views on the future. Many business writers and analysts are spending a lot of ink in trade journals and other publications on their concern about the upcoming exit of engineers from industry as the boomers begin to retire, and then there are all you guys worrying about all the engineering jobs in the US being moved to India. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but one way or another, the supply and demand curves will set the price for engineers. If that price doesn’t meet your needs, go into something else. That will only help those of us who stay in engineering.
Sorry, but IMHO blaming all your problems on evil industrialists just does not cut it. We are responsible for our own destiny. Unlike the good old days, no one owes you an engineering job at any wage, 5 dollars or 50 dollars an hour. If you really want to improve the value of engineers on the market, vote with your feet and go into something else.
I know, I know, I am extremely insensitive, and don’t understand what it is like, if I had been in your shoes etc, etc….. I really need to stop reading this forum…
<rant mode off>
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Some of the "recommendations" include abandoning the industry you are in. If you are a potential recipient of those abandoned jobs, you would push for that all your worth! From the US side, it is frustrating to an engineer who wants to work to improve the efficiency/competitiveness of their industry (and preserve jobs) to have their efforts thwarted by the short term view of CEO's; in turn, responding to the instant gratification demands of shareholders. What would be (and is) truly bothersome is the potential abandonment of strategically important industries.
For US engineers, work to shrug off any defeatist attitude that offshoring may bring less you fall victim to the Pygmalion effect. Prove that you are or are among the best in the world and help keep your industries alive. The better the effectiveness of you efforts, the less attractive offshoring will become. Show this.
Regards,
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
In precisely the same areas which show increased unemployment, some hi-tech industries ( as in the blue screen of death) are crying that we need to increase the number of H1B visas, to bring in more foreign engineers and programmers!
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
But then again, no need to be overly pessimistic. Distribution of engineering jobs across the oceans is not rope-pulling. Engineering tends to attract and create more engineering. As wealth spreads, job contents change, productivity increases, people get richer, supply creates demand creates supply...
I don't think Americans and Eureopean engineers will ever all be unemployeed while the Chinese and Indians have all the fun (and money). The boat may rock during the next few years or decennia, and some people may want to move overseas to go where the jobs are, but I don't think doom scenarios are realistic. "First world" engineering will never disappear.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I once again extend an invitation to anyone willing to come and have a first hand experience.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
It doesn't seem that the Civil, Environmental, and Structural engineers are threatened by off-shore sourcing issues. I wonder how long it will be before businesses and government find a way to get these services elsewhere.
After all, I've seen plenty of products from outside the US stamped FCC, UL, and even copied products listing the copied patent numbers, copied Copyright marks, and with warranty cards listing the copied companies warranty return center address and phone number. On the Civil engineering side, claiming that a highway plan or structural drawing had a properly licensed engineer examine and stamp it when it came from outside the US cannot be too far off. And then finding and prosecuting the guilty party in China or India when things go wrong can prove difficult.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
People have been stealing technology ever since the first person started chipping rock. The people who first smelted copper had the process stolen, same with iron, textile production, silk making and on and on to A-Bombs and H-Bombs. With the process go the jobs.
The only sure bet is to invest in a society that specializes in creating and inovating.
A great education system is one part of that.
I don't think it can be done in a society that doesn't take care of people. You just have to have a society that operates on Maslows 5 th hiearchy.
Did you ever notice that on the Star Treck series there arn't any poor or starving people? Notice that they don't gillotine people for stealing bread anymore? Think Victor Hugo had anything to do with that?
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Jobless in Germany? Look for the local Brothel.
http://
This is an interesting news item .Prostitution in considered as an industry in Germany .Another way of life and another set of social values far different from ours(Indian).
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
COMCOKID - Civil and structural engineering have been STRONGLY and NEGATIVELY affected by outsourcing. The effect is both direct (current work being sent overseas) and indirect (the industries that moved their production facilities overseas no longer need U.S. engineers). Salaries are falling and GOOD job opportunities are limited. There are plenty of jobs if you are willing to work cheap enough.
I agree that there is no need for panic. However, I don't think that any intelligent engineer believes that the engineering profession is moving in the right direction. Jobs are disappearing, wages are going down and the trend downward is likely to continue. As a profession, engineering is doing poorly. We are in a downward spiral and general optimism is unfounded.
I cannot recommend engineering as a career for a capable young person. When a high school asks me about engineering as a career, I tell them that I enjoy the work but not the direction of engineering as a profession. I tell them to consider the current trend and project where they will be in 30 years. The likely conclusion is either grossly underpaid, unemployed or in another profession.
Most of the optimism for engineering in the U.S. is a belief that there will be a "Next Best Thing" and that the "Next Best Thing" will be in the U.S. Neither is guaranteed to happen and both happening is very unlikely. These individuals may be currently in a comfortable situation and their situation may stay comfortable for the duration of their career. However, I see little optimism for the future of the engineering profession in the U.S.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I followed the link and read the article. How sad that I had to read about this tragedy on an Indian website. In reading the article, I sensed almost a subtle tone of glee coming from the author just beneath the literal content.
How dare he (she?) cast aspersions on German morality when India has had a caste system for God knows how long. Oh well, perhaps the people mentioned in the article simply lost their jobs to outsourcing, in which case I wouldn't expect a whole lot of sympathy from the author.
Historically, Germany has produced some of the finest engineers the world has known, and I dare say more than India. Every one of MY books on mechanics, structural analysis, and mechanics of materials is filled with historical references to German names - not Indian.
Lest anyone think I am an insulted German, I am not. I am an American engineer, and I feel more than a bit of solidarity with Germans and other workers of the western world that are losing jobs to dollar-an-hour countries.
God bless the Germans, and Godspeed them and the rest of the western world from this outsourcing mess.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
The world has shrunk due to technology. So it cannot be helped that you had to read on an Indian website. Many publishing houses and agencies are waiting o be admitted.
There is no sense of glee in reporting the news item,but fills me with dejection. I have many German friends and interact for business with German companies.
As regards to caste system,our constitution does not support it. Though it may be prevalent in stray pockets. In todays modern society it does not exist.
India was a colonial country for nearly 4 centuries. At the cost of our resources western world progressed. A fact that cannot be denied.
Regarding outsourcing to dollar an hour countries introspection will have to be done within for the many reasons and answers.
Please do not assume that the posting was done with any sense of glee,but it saddens me . if the germann government recognises it as another industry,there is little left to wonder.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp
for a deconstruction.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Dannym, just in case you are not clear on the sarcasm, I consider your post insulting, and I am very tempted to flag it. Now, if you are going to make those kinds of statements, you need to support it with some unbiased data that is representative of engineering in general, and of the United States in total, or you should retract much of what you said. Ron at least provides some data on electrical and computer engineering, though I don't agree that his data can be extrapolated to all engineering, and I don't share his conclusions even regarding electrical/computer engineering. Dannym I would also caution you against setting yourself up as the judge of what is and is not intelligent.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
First of all, I agree about the negative influence of outsourcing, but I am not so negative about engineering as a whole. It is certainly true the employers in the USA have been able to keep salaries down, but this has been going on for a long time because there are many foreign engineers that come to the USA and are wiling to work for low salaries.
Unlike danyym, I would not discourage anyone from an engineering career. If engineering "clicks" for a person, then it is his/hers challenge to make it a good career despite all setbacks. That is why I actively strove to get out of the "outsourcing" company, any finally succeeded.
As far as engineering as a profession, it may not be glorious in the minds of the public, but at least I feel good that my job is not to rip off the general public, as so many other professions demand.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Congratulations on your educational and career success. I also had a 4.0 for my Master's Degree and I am a P.E. in 8 states. I have bee employed as an civil, computer, mechanical or electrical engineer for 32 years and have never been laid off. (I am not bragging. I just want you to understand that I am not some disgruntled failure.)
I was voicing my opinion about the direction of careers in engineering. The trend is not favorable. Other career paths are outpacing us in terms of status and pay. The career opportunities at the present time are much, much more limited than they were when I began my career.
There are many articles to support my opinion. The link to one of these is attached. There ia a plethora of articles that support my point of view.
h
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Being an electrical engineer (analog/rf design) I have seen the effect of outsourcing on my peers and friends. Maybe not always directly (they haven't had their job sent overseas) but frequently indirectly (fewer job opportunities).
The Civil, Structural, or Environmental engineering types do not seem to post comments on the issues of outsourcing, and was wondering just how much they were being affected. Are the strong PE requirements of their industry and discpline providing some level of protection?
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
You hit the nail on the head. The PE does have an insulating effect on outsourcing. In fact, the PE works to many an engineers favor in that many overseas requirements for municipal and government work reference the PE, making for greater opportunity for American engineers.
I have no short or long term fear of losing my job to foreign competition and in fact, there is a great demand for PE's in the consulting world right now.
Bob
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
For bridges, even the fabrication is kept pretty local--Buy America restrictions mean that the girders and even the steel reinforcing cages need to be made here, for most major highway projects.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Interesting how I'm a Canadaian that can work on any jobsite in the US. We also have many Americans working on Canadian jobsites. Isn't that outsourcing?
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
No work for me. Work for many Swedish engineers. Interesting how some people think that local construction sites are unoutsourcable.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Bob
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
My wife brought home an interesting chart from her history class the other day. I was yearly salaries from 1940's and engineergs were the highest paid at $5K/yr.
Engineers
Dentist
Vets
Today list 2005 would be something like this:
Lawyers
Chiropracters
Dentist
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)
Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Like most of you, I have enjoyed a wonderful engineering career and look forward to many more years. But like many, I find it easy to be so rapt up in your work, to forget the external influences that can affect your future.
Over the years there have been "shortage shouters", industry propaganda and university academics with their own agenda that worked against the "working engineer". But lately this has, it seems, become an avalanche of bad news for an engineering career in the USA - H1-b and immigration issues , whole industries moving manufacturing out of the country, manufacturing in general decline, "Buy American" being out of vogue, and now a wave of Off-shoring.
The political and economic influence of engineers is not heard because we are so splintered into diverse technical specialities that we rarely speak to each other across those boundaries and never speak as one voice to industry and government.
The question I ask is this: How can we use the internet and other communication tools (that we engineers created)to unite our common interests in advancing engineering as a premier career choice.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
A version of outsourcing that doesn't need borders to do its damage is companies laying off their employees and replacing them with "contractors"--often those very same employees, minus the benefits and the job security.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Why is it okay for North American engineers to work all over the world but it is not okay for foriegn engineers to work in North America?
We can't go back to a closed border system so what is the solution?
North American governments and business are in a lot of cases responsible for trying to open up markets so they can do business there.
Now that the markets are open you can't close your own door.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
There are a few ways to reduce this. First, work for less and compete at their level. Second, make all your purchases from domestic manufacturers.
Both are easier said than done. For me, I enjoy my current quality of life. Also, any purchase (large) is also based on the quality of the product.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
That's different from largescale moving of operations to countries where costs are significantly less than in my country. If the manufacturing, the detailing of drawings, the design, etc. can all be done at significantly less (apparent) cost in country X than in country Y, people in country Y are going to lose their jobs.
I'm not necessarily saying that kind of fuction exportation shouldn't happen; I'm just pointing out why it's a source of complaint when other cross-border work isn't.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
The concept and rules of the PE is what prevents it for the most part. The PE is something we American engineers created, and it is something all engineers around the world should follow in my opinion.
I am all for a global engineering community, but lets at least agree that we have to agree on the defination of "Engineer." The PE is a process that allows that and the process excludes a whole bunch of engineers from practicing here in the States because of how engineer is defined.
Bob
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
1. The current form of "Global Trade" is not equal. Considering only the US's largest trading partner; China's policy of a pegged currency, import tariffs, and price dumping all contribute to a heavily stacked deck against the US.
2. My concern about the current situation does not revolve around the preservation of my job. It is survival of the fittest, and if I am not fit I do not deserve a job.
My concern lies in the issues of the continuation of sovereignty for my country: If the US middle class evaporates into a lower class, if the dependency of my national security lies in the manufacturing ability of a potential enemy or ally of an enemy, and if the economy of my country continues to depend on a continuous influx of foreign investment when the dollar remains globally weak, then my attitude of the future is certainly pessimistic.
After all, would you invest in something offering an average 2% ROI (US GDP growth rate 2003), or something offering an average 8.5% ROI (Chinese GDP growth rate 2003)?
Remember: only 3 economic sources create wealth, Agriculture, Mining, and Manufacturing. All the other garbage in a service economy just shuffles dollars around.
3. It is a much larger problem than just "Will I lose my job!?!" Everyone deserves a fair shake at things, but the form that "Globalization" has taken in the US leaves far more negatives than positives.
* http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm601.cfm
* http://www.china-un.ch/eng/ljzg/shjjtj/t85857.htm
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
The PE in the US is a joke. Most people doing engineering don't even have one.
This is were all the engineers that don't have degrees write in and say that the PE in the US is a bad idea, etc, etc.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
So basically your saying competion is good unless the US loses jobs.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I didn't say anything was good or bad. This thread is ABOUT whether "offshoring" creates job loss. I'm talking about *net* engineering job loss, not you take my job in the US and I go take someone's job in Sweden, and the Swede takes what your job would have been in Canada had you not already taken mine...
I quite explicitly said I was not discussing whether the pattern of job exportation from the US is a bad thing. There are plenty of other threads about that.
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: FAQ731-376
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I think engineers with an American education set the bar, and I am proud to say that. It is a good bar for others to reach for.
As for the PE being a joke, this just shows your ignorance, sorry for being so frank. It is sad to see in my opinion.
DrillerNic:
I am aware of other countries attempts to license engineers and I hold this qualification in high esteem no matter the origin. I would argue that we as engineers need to standardize on some licensure process so that those engineers in the common pool that QCE refers to can be understood for their position and those that choose the licensure path can go on to lead them.
Licensure gurantees my job here in the states, say what you will about that. I know it would give other engineers security as well, hence my preaching all the time. Engineers should not be reduced to a commodity to be offshored for cost. If that is an ignorant opinion, well, I don't apologize. I personally think we engineers are the leaders of the world and we need to step up and let others know this.
Go forward and seek licensure no matter what country you are in. If you think licensure is worthless, then please stay away from licensure, we don't need you.
Bob
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
One can dampen the rate of transfer of jobs to overseas by impementing a VAT (value added tax) on all items and services purchased in the USA. In this way, US manufactured goods and services would not be as severely penalized for incorporating in there costs the full tax burden of the US tax system ( thru payroll taxes, etc).
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Second point, I think most people would find it hard to distinguish between qualified / expereinced engineers, what ever the location. I still think quality is the key and that does vary significantly. Steel bought from the UK or US does not machine the same as that made in China. Same spec allegedly. Drills or cutting tools bought from the far east do not compete with those from Sweden Germany. They never have. The same with consumable goods, I have noticed a real difference in the quality of stuff on sale, it really is cr*p and at not so cheap prices in real terms. We need to rethink, rebrand and re-sell
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Strong words there EddyC, have to agree with what your saying.
Keano.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
We just gotta work better and smarter. I had a boss that use to say: "nothing cost as much as cheap engineering"
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
As many of us (US Citizens) are getting our taxes ready for the big day, I had to clarify a question from a very large tax software supplier, which many of us probably use.
Interesting to find out that they outside their customer service to India.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
It would be hard to standardise licensing globally: how do you compare the UK engneering education system with specialisation in school at 16 followed by 3-4 years of sudying only engineering, with the US or European model of later specialisation through school and university? What about the German model that doesn't have professional qualifications, but a different enginering degree (Dr-Ing), gained at specialised universities for those that want it? What could be done (and in many ways is being done now) is saying that a Chartered engineer from the UK or Commonwealth country is equivalent to a PE in the US and a Dr-Ing from Germany and so on.
But this still wouldn't stop jobs going to lower cost centres: a Polish or Indian engineer with a professional qualification is still cheaper than a UK CEng or a US PE, and that has nothing to do with the quality of the Polish or Indian qualification and everything to do with the cost of living in Poland or India....saying otherwise is chauvanism at best and racism at worst. I've received unbelievably shite work from PE Engineers in the US and really awful steel from the US Steel mill in Baytown Tx, but I'm not saying that all US goods are shoddy!
Gloabalisation is a fact, accept it and live with it; both the good points: food available out of season, a wider range of manufactured items for you to buy (some cheaper, some better than home produced stuff, some cheaper and better!) and the bad points: jobs moving to lower cost areas. Your response should be to either move to the lower cost areas yourself, or offer higher quality, value added services where you are, not throwing the rattle out of your pram and arguing for a moat to be made around your country to keep the rest of the world out!
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I am not sure if Bin Laden even compares (even though he was CIA-trained).
Generally, you can't believe what any politician promises. In the recent debates, Kerry claimed to be against out-sourcing, however, he voted for NAFTA, years ago. As i said in another thread, the govmint generally listens to its biggest campaign contributors, and not the American public as a whole (we have too many dissenting opinions).
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I guess what we have to do is sit back and wait for our country to have its foundations ripped apart, wait for the population to realise that cheap is not always best, become a third world country itself and then start all ovcer again.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Is there a way to stop this offshoring without political intervention?
Would political intervention work in this day with organisation like the WTO?
Lately most of the US trade restrictions that have been brought in to protect US jobs have been shot down and the ones that are remaining are starting to cause trade restrictions on the US by ally countries.
EU to slap extra 15% duty on range of US goods
BRUSSELS: The European Union plans to slap an extra 15 percent import duty on a range of US goods over Washington’s failure to apply an international trade ruling against an anti-dumping law, the EU executive said on Thursday.
The duty would hit imports including paper, agricultural, textile and machinery products from May 1, and affect slightly less than $28 million in trade, the European Commission said.
“The Commission took this latest step in the dispute over the Byrd Amendment in light of the continuing failure of the United States to bring its legislation in conformity with its international obligations,” it said in a statement.
The level of EU retaliation would be revised annually to adjust to the level of damage caused to EU companies, it said. While the Commission’s plan needed the formal approval of EU ministers, this was expected to be a formality, officials said, adding there were no plans to meet US officials before the additional duty came into force.
Neither was there a meeting planned between EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson and US Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick — until recently US trade representative — who is scheduled to be in Brussels early next week, they said.
In November, the World Trade Organisation gave approval to the EU, Japan and others to apply an initial $150 million in trade sanctions after Washington failed to conform with a WTO ruling to repeal a subsidy programme for US companies.
Known as the Byrd Amendment, the programme distributes funds raised by anti-dumping duties on imports to the companies that initially requested government anti-dumping protection.
More than $1 billion has been doled out to US ball bearing, steel, seafood, candle and other companies under the Byrd Amendment over the past four years. Canada is expected to announce similar measures against the United States, its top trading partner, later on Thursday.
Mostly textiles: Most of the products to be hit with the EU’s extra duty relate to textiles — trousers and overalls made of synthetic fibres, for example. The only agricultural item is sweetcorn.
Five areas of stationery are also targeted, while in the machinery sector the products listed are crane lorries, along with spectacle frames and mountings.
The WTO gave Canada and the other co-complainants the authority to retaliate. The other countries involved include Mexico, Japan, India and Brazil.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
makeup, you are very fortunate. My father was an engineer, and we moved 5 times before I left home (and they moved twice more afterwards before he retired). I have moved 7 times so far, each time I changed jobs.
So, while it is jolly nice to live in one place all your life, I do not think that the rest of the world has that luxury.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
This article is about China getting more of the Australian automotive work-
http:/
So where will engineering be in 5 years-- looks like it will be mostly in China. Who will tell all the engineering students that they are studying to be migrant workers?
Ron
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
This is the way it always has been. The only way that countries with higher than average wages can survive is by doing something better than the rest of the world. Since, demonstrably, product engineering can largely be done anywhere in the world, there is no necessity to have your product engineering co-located with your manufacturing plants. So, so long as product design engineers can out-engineer the competition, cost effectively, they will have a job.
Obviously some engineers are required on-site, and quite why China is not chock-a-block with unemployed American engineers improving their factories and products is beyond me. The market is there.
Incidentally I suspect there is a lot more to the Ion collapse than that story says, I have never, ever, considered buying shares in them, their acquisition strategy seemed insane, and their public statements seemed to be long on spin.(That's the polite version).
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Your comment about the American PE being a "joke" is very odd.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
A couple of years ago was in drilling in the Ukraine (one of the 8 times I've moved in the last 6 years) and the quality of geoscientists there was outstanding- every single mudlogger had a PhD! Someone will soon take a deep breath and bring an Eastern European Oil Service Company onto an installation in the North Sea and then the likes of Halliburotn, Schlumberger etc will have to reduce their prices or leave....Cheaper doesn't always mean worse! Now I notice that Schlumberger have opened up a seismic and petrophysiscs centre of excellence in Moscow- and petrophysiscs & log analysis is one of those things that can be done anywhere where there's an internet link...so start learning Russian if you're in that part of the upstream O&G business!
But on a broader note, while the US was exporting jobs and so on to the rest of the world (most of the early North Sea boom was engineered in the States for example) no-one was compalining in the US- UK based engineeers educated themselves, changed from industrial engineers to offshore engineers and undercut the guys from Houston...and then started doing stuff in the US... it's what happens, it's called progress in a global world. Having benefitted from open trade and exporting goods and services to teh rest of the world for over 100 years, to then deny these benefits to other countries is selfish- even though the self interest is understandable!
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
GreLocock
In the day of your parents, the man was probably the main bread winner and the wife stayed at home. Today both adults tend to work and a change in location affects 2 people not one and if you both have an interest in career development then the problems start. No engineering position offers the benefits or stability that would allow my wife to even consider giving up her career to start somewhere else. These moves for me just dont add up and following the job is not an option and the stakes need to be raised significantly if this is to change. Totally opposite to current trends. My answer has been to re-invent myself, change career, not what I want but its not that bad.
The problem for me is that I no longer have a viable outlet for the skills that I have spent 25 years getting, some are relevant but the BENG degree, why did I do that?. Why didn't I do an MBA? and this will affect a lot of people. The benefits working in or for engineerng do not make moving a viable option. It will take to long to redeem the capital outlay involved with relocation and the risks involved are totally in my lap. All in all not worth it and not worth the worry just a bit disappointing because I am an engineer at heart.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
The true irony of the situation:
If GM offshores all it's suppliers and puts those people out of jobs, then there are just that many fewer people that afford all those new, over-appreciated cars and trucks.
End result = GM financial woes continue. (Do you really think China is going to purchase GM when they have their choice of 15 or so National brands to select from?...)
I have no good advice for you, other than keep trying.
Maybe look to bio-engineering to blend a field fairly exclusive to the US with your love of engineering.
Good luck, keep after it, and don't get too down in the dumps from what you read on here. The sun still shines!
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
My mother made an excellent career out of nursing, didn't start until we had grown up, she was 36. She is just retiring and went from student nurse to cancer specialist earning £40K+. She is planning to write a book and training material in her retirement. What do you have to do to earn £40K in IT these days. She has had continuity and support throughout. Try one for a few years and if you dont like it change to the other.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Consider structural engrg (building and/or residential). There some of the work is being offshored, but so far, it has not been much of a threat to job security.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
I'm sure we will hear from many that disagree with your position.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Would [a] degree in computer engineering help me to obtain employment?
My answer to her question is no.
Try these links for more information on this subject:
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http://www.todaysengineer.org/Apr04/outlook.asp
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RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
Engineering is a specialised faculty and cannot be displaced so easily,like a banking(account details etc) or customer care activity.
US engineers only need to refocus their synergies and strengths(available in plenty),
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
One field that is opening up to mechanical engineers ( providing you are 25-35 yrs old) is in the electric power generation field. That industry has become aware that they have zero professionals in that age group, and realize that in 10 years all current profesionals will retire en masse on the same date. To offset that "wave", most electric utilities are offering early reirement for anyone over 50 yrs old and looking to hire the 25-25 age group to fill in the gap.
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
It's the same story for the electrical engineers in the heavy electrical industries - generation, transmission, petrochem, etc. How the wheel has turned: the engineers of my generation suffered badly when the UK electricity industry was privatised. At that time there were more engineers than jobs, so pay was indifferent and openings were rare. Now we're an increasingly valuable commodity. Bring it on!!
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE