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Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE
29

Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

62% unemployment caused by downturn in business
15% caused by offshoring

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

3
From the US BLS:

       THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  MARCH 2005
     
   Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 110,000 in March, and the
unemployment rate declined to 5.2 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of
the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.  Several industries added jobs
over the month, including construction, mining, health care, and wholesale
trade.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

5

Re: March 2005 employment situation:

One data point is never useful.

If you look at the last 7 years, the US is down an est. 3 million manufacturing jobs.  That is considering only manufacturing jobs.

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/jobs/outsourcing_problems.cfm

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I personnelly don't like to see political propaganda used as facts.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

4
Thanks QCE, so the heading for this thread should be

"Offshoring is Minor Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE"

Oh well, that wouldn't be as exciting and alarmist, would it? Your (generalising) wages are too high. You are lazy, process driven, and complacent. Your bosses are right to outsource your jobs.

Mind you, you don't read the other half of the story

"Australian Automotive Engineers in short supply because they find it so easy to get engineering work that was previously done in the USA because they are cheaper and better"

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

(OP)
23%drop in employed USA electrical engineers since 2000 tells me where engineering is going in the next 5 years- it is going overseas!


"NEWS from IEEE-USA
U.S. Technical Employment Falls by  More Than 220,000 Workers from 2000 to 2004
Washington (3 March 2005) - The number of employed U.S. technical workers has fallen by 221,000 in six major computer and engineering job classifications from 2000 to 2004, according to data compiled by the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).

The largest drops occurred among computer programmers, followed by electrical and electronics engineers, then computer scientists and systems analysts.  These declines were offset by substantial employment increases for computer and information systems managers, computer hardware engineers and computer software engineers.

"The drop in computer programmers and rise in managers reflects the trend toward offshoring of programming jobs and the resulting need for professionals to manage outsourced projects," IEEE-USA President Gerard A. Alphonse said.

According to the BLS, computer programmers have taken the biggest hit, with a drop of more than 24 percent -- from 745,000 in 2000 to 564,000 in 2004.  In addition, the number of employed electrical and electronics engineers shrunk by 101,000, from 444,000 in 2000 to 343,000 last year, a decrease of nearly 23 percent.  Computer scientists and systems analysts have experienced similar losses, dropping more than 16 percent, from 835,000 in 2000 to 700,000 in 2004.

However, employed computer and information systems managers have jumped from 228,000 in 2000 to 337,000 last year, a dramatic increase of almost 48 percent.  Computer hardware engineers rose from 83,000 in 2000 to 96,000 in 2004, a nearly 16 percent increase.  Employed computer software engineers have risen by 74,000, from 739,000 in 2000 to 813,000 in 2004, a 10 percent increase.

The table below summarizes the BLS data:

 

Job Classification
  2000
  2004
  Change
  Pct.
  
Computer Hardware Engineers
  83,000
  96,000
  +13,000

 
  +15.7
  
Computer & Info. Systems Managers
  228,000
  337,000
  +109,000

 
  +47.8
  
Computer Programmers
  745,000
  564,000
  -181,000

 
  -24.3
  
Computer Scientists & Systems Analysts
  835,000
  700,000
  -135,000
  -16.2
  
Computer Software Engineers
  739,000
  813,000
  +74,000
  +10.0
  
Electrical & Electronics Engineers
  444,000
  343,000
  -101,000
  -22.7
  
Total
  3,074,000
  2,853,000
  -221,000
  -7.2
  "

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

OK, so the dinosaur industry engineering jobs (including automotive and computers) are moving overseas. Is this not what you'd expect? Do you really think the world will pay exceptionally high wages (say 20% premium typically) for engineers in mature industries who are not innovating? Why would it?

The USA has traditionally been innovative and productive. This has justified your high wages. So stop whining about the jobs that are disappearing, go and invent another whole new industry and watch that grow. That's how your predecessors created the society you live in and see the benefits of.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE



I am a little confused with your condescending tone, Greg, but you are as sharp as usual.   Your posts make me smile.

1. My "high wage" can only be correlated to that of the other wage earners in my country.  It should not be compared to that of the rest of the world.  Costs are not the same across borders, so why should wages be?

2. The corporate "groupthink" in my country justifies moving jobs overseas through claims that they must in order to remain comptetitive. What a load of bull.  I do not pay comparatively lower prices now for my purchases than my parents did 20 years ago.  I never demanded the corporations in my country to give me lower prices at the cost of taking jobs away from my neighbors.

I do not think US corporations are doing any favors to Asian countries by sending jobs to them that only pay US$1.20 per day.  That is only lending a form of indentured servantcy to those nations.  Additionally, those same US corporations are exporting pollution to those countries for lack of proper controls.  At the least, it is encouraging foreign equivalents to ignore industry practice of minimizing pollution for the simple ironic reason of being cheaper than the US facilities observing such regulations.

3. I'll pay higher prices any day if I know that 100% of my purchase goes to stregthen the domestic economy by paying domestic wages, buying domestic material, funding domestic R&D, and observing domestic environmental/safety regulations.  I'm an American first and foremost, not a just a global "consumer".

4. Your idea of a "Just make something else up!" economy is a little hard to achieve when most of your raw ability to "make something" is somewhere else.  Besides, if we do "invent another whole new industry", it'll soon be knocked-off by a foreign trading parter that does nothing to observe intellectual property rights.

I enjoy your posts, but we must agree to disagree here, Mr. Locock.





RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I'm not trying to be condescending (it comes naturally) what I'm annoyed by is 'the sky is falling' nature of this sort of report.

1 "Costs are not the same across borders, so why should wages be? " You sell your services globally. The global customer does not care what your local cost of living is. All we see is "hours of productive engineering per dollar spent". Say you choose to live in an expensive neighborhood. Should you be paid more because of that?

2 "I do not pay comparatively lower prices now for my purchases than my parents did 20 years ago" yes you do. Adjusted for inflation (or average wages) you probably pay less for just about everything than they did, with the admitted exceptions of land, housing, medical care and shares. The latter I can explain easily, the first two are due primarily to increased demand, and medical care is an ongoing disaster, primarily driven by some surprisingly socialist practices in the land of the free. Grin.

3 "I'll pay higher prices any day if I know that 100% of my purchase goes to stregthen the domestic economy "
That's fine. All your countrymen buying stuff at walMart are rather working against you though.  This is not, however, how the purchasing department of successful big companies work, in any country. Historically those countries with the least barriers to overseas trade have been the most robust economies (although it would be easy to find counterexamples). Protecting inefficient domestic industries is a way of storing up trouble. I agree that in times of transition it may be better to offer some short term relief to a struggling industry, but you'd better make sure that the quid pro quo is that the necessary restructuring takes place.

4 "if we do "invent another whole new industry", it'll soon be knocked-off by a foreign trading parter that does nothing to observe intellectual property rights" Well hang on, why should you get premium wages if you aren't innovating and you aren't doing things that other people can't? The alternative is to wait until somebody else innovates and then you knock it off.

If this generation of Americans is content to sit back and just do the same as everybody else, worldwide, then it is hardly surprising that their pay will fall to the same level as everybody elses. How can it be otherwise?

I think one reason we disagree is that the auto industry is already so far down the track of off shoring that I just accept that as normality, and learn to live with it. In the three cubicles next to mine we have one German, one American and one real Aussie. We recruit worldwide, and work, worldwide, using a worldwide set of suppliers, designing products that will be manufactured anywhere in the world for a worldwide set of customers. It sure beats making buggy whips for the local town.

/rant off/

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

First of all thank you Greg.

<rant mode on>
The following is a reality check for all of you that are worried that your job will be off shored and you will find yourself unemployed:

1) If you are worried about that, you are probably in an industry or job category where that is very likely to happen. Stop worrying, and do something about it. Find a job in another industry, find a job in another field, go back to school and get trained in something else. Do something to add value to your skill set, quit worrying and whining about it and do something.

2) We can argue all day long about the morality of off shoring, but it is a fact of life, and is not going away. Market forces are such that certain activities will move to places where it is cheaper to do those activities. It happened to the steel industry; it happened to the call center industry, it is happening to the auto industry and it is and will continue to happen to the chemical industry. The genie has been let out of the global economy bottle. Face it and deal with it.

3) Just because your industry segment or your geographical area is losing jobs, don’t assume that is the case across engineering or across the US. There are segments of engineering where jobs are being added, and there are segments of engineering where jobs are going away. That will always be the case.

4) A nice high paying job in engineering is not a civil right, and no matter how many organizations you form, it is very unlikely to ever be a civil right. If engineering is not making you a decent living, please go find something else to do.  In addition, an engineering job in your preferred geographical location is not a civil right. If you are not willing to relocate for an engineering job, you have no right to complain in my opinion. If relocating is not an option, acquire skills that will get you gainful employment in your preferred geographical area. I hear Doctors and Lawyers are in demand everywhere….

5) I find it interesting that there seems to be two opposing views on the future. Many business writers and analysts are spending a lot of ink in trade journals and other publications on their concern about the upcoming exit of engineers from industry as the boomers begin to retire, and then there are all you guys worrying about all the engineering jobs in the US being moved to India. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but one way or another, the supply and demand curves will set the price for engineers. If that price doesn’t meet your needs, go into something else. That will only help those of us who stay in engineering.

Sorry, but IMHO blaming all your problems on evil industrialists just does not cut it. We are responsible for our own destiny. Unlike the good old days, no one owes you an engineering job at any wage, 5 dollars or 50 dollars an hour. If you really want to improve the value of engineers on the market, vote with your feet and go into something else.

I know, I know, I am extremely insensitive, and don’t understand what it is like, if I had been in your shoes etc, etc….. I really need to stop reading this forum…
<rant mode off>

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

As I have read through some of this thread, I am envisioning lemmings (jobs) going into the sea.  Only in this case they are going overseas.  Led by a few, the "offshoring is a must to remain competitive" mantra is (in my jaded eye) turning into a flood.  If you work here in the US it is a major cause for concern.  If you work outside the US it is a potential gold mine.  The expressed opinions reflect this polarity.

Some of the "recommendations" include abandoning the industry you are in.  If you are a potential recipient of those abandoned jobs, you would push for that all your worth!  From the US side, it is frustrating to an engineer who wants to work to improve the efficiency/competitiveness of their industry (and preserve jobs) to have their efforts thwarted by the short term view of CEO's; in turn, responding to the instant gratification demands of shareholders.  What would be (and is) truly bothersome is the potential abandonment of strategically important industries.

For US engineers, work to shrug off any defeatist attitude that offshoring may bring less you fall victim to the Pygmalion effect.  Prove that you are or are among the best in the world and help keep your industries alive.  The better the effectiveness of you efforts, the less attractive offshoring will become.  Show this.

Regards,

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

2
The news gets more interesting.

In precisely the same areas which show increased unemployment, some hi-tech industries ( as in the blue screen of death) are crying that we need to increase the number of H1B visas, to bring in more foreign engineers and programmers!

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Agree with Greg. "No one owes you an engineering job at any wage" - couldn't agree more.

But then again, no need to be overly pessimistic. Distribution of engineering jobs across the oceans is not rope-pulling. Engineering tends to attract and create more engineering. As wealth spreads, job contents change, productivity increases, people get richer, supply creates demand creates supply...

I don't think Americans and Eureopean engineers will ever all be unemployeed while the Chinese and Indians have all the fun (and money). The boat may rock during the next few years or decennia, and some people may want to move overseas to go where the jobs are, but I don't think doom scenarios are realistic. "First world" engineering will never disappear.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

3
Taking some previous advice on board. I left engineering about 2 years ago, then I went through the initial panic of trying to get back in.  I took a job (not in engineering) just to make ends meet (at the time)and its turned out to be a breath of fresh air.  It gives me excellent work life balance and slightly better pay.  My advice.  Dont be so keen to keep a loss leader, if someone wants to do it for nothing let them.  Find something else, its out there and being engineers you can adapt.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

However much one might wish that outsourcing woes would go away will not happen, Business managers love 1$/hour wages,to bolster the bottom lines. Greg has been very sharp (as usual) but are very relevant. I would be happy to receive any member at Bangalore and take them around showing the progress as well as destructions happening. It is not a happy affair.The government does not earn any revenue by way of taxes or duties ,but these industries demand a huge share of government spending for their benefit. This has caused disgruntling among locals. Career plans are made to suit the businesses and not for self improvement.

I once again extend an invitation to anyone willing to come and have a first hand experience.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Also getting a diverce engineering degree will help you change from one industry that has busted to one that is booming.  Changing industries also makes things interesting.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I think it's interesting that the people posting to this topic have (Electrical), (Mechanical), (Industrial), (Automotive) posted with their names!

It doesn't seem that the Civil, Environmental, and Structural engineers are threatened by off-shore sourcing issues. I wonder how long it will be before businesses and government find a way to get these services elsewhere.

After all, I've seen plenty of products from outside the US stamped FCC, UL, and even copied products listing the copied patent numbers, copied Copyright marks, and with warranty cards listing the copied companies warranty return center address and phone number. On the Civil engineering side, claiming that a highway plan or structural drawing had a properly licensed engineer examine and stamp it when it came from outside the US cannot be too far off. And then finding and prosecuting the guilty party in China or India when things go wrong can prove difficult.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Note that a lot of Americain companies do business overseas.  Most of the engineering firms I know are involved with engineering work in China and India.  How come noone is talking about this work.  Are Americains not stealing Chinese and Indian jobs?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I think I've said this on other threads that dealt with the same subject.  
People have been stealing technology ever since the first person started chipping rock.  The people who first smelted copper had the process stolen, same with iron, textile production, silk making and on and on to A-Bombs and H-Bombs. With the process go the jobs.
The only sure bet is to invest in a society that specializes in creating  and inovating.
 A great education system is one part of that.  
I don't think it can be done in a society that doesn't take care of people.  You just have to have a society that operates on Maslows 5 th hiearchy.  
Did you ever notice that on the Star Treck series there arn't any poor or starving people?  Notice that they don't gillotine people for stealing bread anymore?  Think Victor Hugo had anything to do with that?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE


Jobless in Germany? Look for the local Brothel.


http://sify.com/news/pioneer/fullstory.php?id=%2013713634


This is an interesting news item .Prostitution in considered as an industry in Germany .Another way of life and another set of social values far different from ours(Indian).

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

5

COMCOKID - Civil and structural engineering have been STRONGLY and NEGATIVELY affected by outsourcing. The effect is both direct (current work being sent overseas) and indirect (the industries that moved their production facilities overseas no longer need U.S. engineers). Salaries are falling and GOOD job opportunities are limited. There are plenty of jobs if you are willing to work cheap enough.

I agree that there is no need for panic. However, I don't think that any intelligent engineer believes that the engineering profession is moving in the right direction. Jobs are disappearing, wages are going down and the trend downward is likely to continue. As a profession, engineering is doing poorly. We are in a downward spiral and general optimism is unfounded.

I cannot recommend engineering as a career for a capable young person. When a high school asks me about engineering as a career, I tell them that I enjoy the work but not the direction of engineering as a profession. I tell them to consider the current trend and project where they will be in 30 years. The likely conclusion is either grossly underpaid, unemployed or in another profession.

Most of the optimism for engineering in the U.S. is a belief that there will be a "Next Best Thing" and that the "Next Best Thing" will be in the U.S. Neither is guaranteed to happen and both happening is very unlikely. These individuals may be currently in a comfortable situation and their situation may stay comfortable for the duration of their career. However, I see little optimism for the future of the engineering profession in the U.S.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Re: arunmrao's "Jobless in Germany" post.

I followed the link and read the article.  How sad that I had to read about this tragedy on an Indian website.  In reading the article, I sensed almost a subtle tone of glee coming from the author just beneath the literal content.

How dare he (she?) cast aspersions on German morality when India has had a caste system for God knows how long.  Oh well, perhaps the people mentioned in the article simply lost their jobs to outsourcing, in which case I wouldn't expect a whole lot of sympathy from the author.

Historically, Germany has produced some of the finest engineers the world has known, and I dare say more than India.  Every one of MY books on mechanics, structural analysis, and mechanics of materials is filled with historical references to German names - not Indian.

Lest anyone think I am an insulted German, I am not.  I am an American engineer, and I feel more than a bit of solidarity with Germans and other workers of the western world that are losing jobs to dollar-an-hour countries.

God bless the Germans, and Godspeed them and the rest of the western world from this outsourcing mess.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

LIstress,
The world has shrunk due to technology. So it cannot be helped that you had to read on an Indian  website. Many publishing houses and agencies are waiting o be admitted.

There is no sense of glee in reporting the news item,but fills me with dejection. I have many German friends and interact for business with German companies.

As regards to caste system,our constitution does not support it. Though it may be prevalent in stray pockets. In todays modern society it does not exist.

India was a colonial country for nearly 4 centuries. At the cost of our resources western world progressed. A fact that cannot be denied.

Regarding outsourcing to dollar an hour countries introspection will have to be done within for the many reasons and answers.

Please do not assume that the posting was done with any sense of glee,but it saddens me . if the germann government recognises it as another industry,there is little left to wonder.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I checked out that story a while back. It was a UK tabloid beat-up, not official German policy.

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

for a deconstruction.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Well I guess I am one of those un-intelligent engineers. Maybe dannym can further enlighten me. I disagree with him/her so I am obviously too stupid to fully understand the problem. I don’t believe that engineering is in a downward spiral, I am generally optimistic, and I don’t concur with dannym’s conclusions, so I guess I need remedial education.  Amazing that while I am such a unintelligent person I have managed straight A’s in my Masters degree program, I hold a PE license, and I have had a successful 20 year career in engineering.

Dannym, just in case you are not clear on the sarcasm, I consider your post insulting, and I am very tempted to flag it. Now, if you are going to make those kinds of statements, you need to support it with some unbiased data that is representative of engineering in general, and of the United States in total, or you should retract much of what you said. Ron at least provides some data on electrical and computer engineering, though I don't agree that his data can be extrapolated to all engineering, and I don't share his conclusions even regarding electrical/computer engineering. Dannym I would also caution you against setting yourself up as the judge of what is and is not intelligent.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I am somewhere between dannym and sms in my opinions. I worked as a QA/QC engineer for 3 years, for a company that outsourced structural engineering (as opposed to an international joint venture such as GregLocock describes).
First of all, I agree about the negative influence of outsourcing, but I am not so negative about engineering as a whole. It is certainly true the employers in the USA have been able to keep salaries down, but this has been going on for a long time because there are many foreign engineers that come to the USA and are wiling to work for low salaries.
Unlike danyym, I would not discourage anyone from an engineering career. If engineering "clicks" for a person, then it is his/hers challenge to make it a good career despite all setbacks. That is why I actively strove to get out of the "outsourcing" company, any finally succeeded.
As far as engineering as a profession, it may not be glorious in the minds of the public, but at least I feel good that my job is not to rip off the general public, as so many other professions demand.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

sms - No offense was intended. If you took insult at my comments, I am sorry.

Congratulations on your educational and career success. I also had a 4.0 for my Master's Degree and I am a P.E. in 8 states. I have bee employed as an civil, computer, mechanical or electrical engineer for 32 years and have never been laid off. (I am not bragging. I just want you to understand that I am not some disgruntled failure.)

I was voicing my opinion about the direction of careers in engineering. The trend is not favorable. Other career paths are outpacing us in terms of status and pay. The career opportunities at the present time are much, much more limited than they were when I began my career.

There are many articles to support my opinion. The link to one of these is attached. There ia a plethora of articles that support my point of view.

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/05/wo_florman051904.asp?p=0

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

dannym - thanks for commenting on my post.

Being an electrical engineer (analog/rf design) I have seen the effect of outsourcing on my peers and friends. Maybe not always directly (they haven't had their job sent overseas) but frequently indirectly (fewer job opportunities).

The Civil, Structural, or Environmental engineering types do not seem to post comments on the issues of outsourcing, and was wondering just how much they were being affected. Are the strong PE requirements of their industry and discpline providing some level of protection?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Comcokid:

You hit the nail on the head.  The PE does have an insulating effect on outsourcing.  In fact, the PE works to many an engineers favor in that many overseas requirements for municipal and government work reference the PE, making for greater opportunity for American engineers.

I have no short or long term fear of losing my job to foreign competition and in fact, there is a great demand for PE's in the consulting world right now.

Bob

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Also some of us are tied to the construction end rather than the design end.  If the construction site is in the US, that's not very outsourceable.  

For bridges, even the fabrication is kept pretty local--Buy America restrictions mean that the girders and even the steel reinforcing cages need to be made here, for most major highway projects.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

"If the construction site is in the US, that's not very outsourceable."

Interesting how I'm a Canadaian that can work on any jobsite in the US.  We also have many Americans working on Canadian jobsites.  Isn't that outsourcing?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Actually now that I think about it, almost all the engineers on the large scale construction project that I'm trying to get work on at the moment are from Sweden.  This is a construction site just outside my home town here in Canada.

No work for me.  Work for many Swedish engineers.  Interesting how some people think that local construction sites are unoutsourcable.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

We had a new wind farm built a mile offshore in the UK, all we managed to supply was the accommodation module, eveything else came from europe.  All jobs can now be completed using the global workforce.  You are not safe, ask the accountant.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

makeup, sounds like I have it good here in the USA, I will keep counting my lucky stars...

Bob

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Dannyhm

Quote:

I was voicing my opinion about the direction of careers in engineering. The trend is not favorable. Other career paths are outpacing us in terms of status and pay. The career opportunities at the present time are much, much more limited than they were when I began my career.

My wife brought home an interesting chart from her history class the other day.  I was yearly salaries from 1940's and engineergs were the highest paid at $5K/yr.

Engineers
Dentist
Vets

Today list 2005 would be something like this:

Lawyers
Chiropracters
Dentist

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

(OP)
Thank you Dannym for that great article and thank you all for your good comments.
Like most of you, I have enjoyed a wonderful engineering career and look forward to many more years. But like many, I find it easy to be so rapt up in your work, to forget the external influences that can affect your future.  
Over the years there have been "shortage shouters", industry propaganda and university academics with their own agenda that worked against the "working engineer". But lately this has, it seems, become an avalanche of bad news for an engineering career in the USA  - H1-b and immigration issues , whole industries moving manufacturing out of the country, manufacturing in general decline,  "Buy American" being out of vogue, and now a wave of Off-shoring.

The political and economic influence of engineers is not heard because we are so splintered into diverse technical specialities that we rarely speak to each other across those boundaries and never speak as one voice to industry and government.

The question I ask is this: How can we use the internet and other communication tools (that we engineers created)to unite our common interests in advancing engineering as a premier career choice.
 

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

QCE:  back-and-forth between US & Canada, which have more or less the same pay scale, isn't anywhere near the same thing as the one-way flow of jobs from more expensive to less expensive labor markets.

A version of outsourcing that doesn't need borders to do its damage is companies laying off their employees and replacing them with "contractors"--often those very same employees, minus the benefits and the job security.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I still ask the question:

Why is it okay for North American engineers to work all over the world but it is not okay for foriegn engineers to work in North America?

We can't go back to a closed border system so what is the solution?

North American governments and business are in a lot of cases responsible for trying to open up markets so they can do business there.

Now that the markets are open you can't close your own door.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Interesting thread and everyone's views regarding this issue of outsourcing.  I think it's a naive view if anyone thinks they are immune to this.  

There are a few ways to reduce this.  First, work for less and compete at their level.  Second, make all your purchases from domestic manufacturers.  

Both are easier said than done.  For me, I enjoy my current quality of life.  Also, any purchase (large) is also based on the quality of the product.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Again if everyone bought domestically there would be no world trade.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I still don't think the outsourcing that people have been complaining about has been about people in various so-called "first-world" countries working in each other's countries.  It's unreasonable to expect to be immune from any sort of competition.  Someone from Sweden is more or less as much a threat to my livelihood as someone from another state in the US or from another company in my very town, and vice versa.  It's the "vice versa" that makes it not as big a deal.

That's different from largescale moving of operations to countries where costs are significantly less than in my country.  If the manufacturing, the detailing of drawings,  the design, etc. can all be done at significantly less (apparent) cost in country X than in country Y, people in country Y are going to lose their jobs.

I'm not necessarily saying that kind of fuction exportation shouldn't happen; I'm just pointing out why it's a source of complaint when other cross-border work isn't.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

QCE:

The concept and rules of the PE is what prevents it for the most part.  The PE is something we American engineers created, and it is something all engineers around the world should follow in my opinion.

I am all for a global engineering community, but lets at least agree that we have to agree on the defination of "Engineer."  The PE is a process that allows that and the process excludes a whole bunch of engineers from practicing here in the States because of how engineer is defined.

Bob

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE


1. The current form of "Global Trade" is not equal. Considering only the US's largest trading partner; China's policy of a pegged currency, import tariffs, and price dumping all contribute to a heavily stacked deck against the US.

2. My concern about the current situation does not revolve around the preservation of my job. It is survival of the fittest, and if I am not fit I do not deserve a job.

My concern lies in the issues of the continuation of sovereignty for my country: If the US middle class evaporates into a lower class, if the dependency of my national security lies in the manufacturing ability of a potential enemy or ally of an enemy, and if the economy of my country continues to depend on a continuous influx of foreign investment when the dollar remains globally weak, then my attitude of the future is certainly pessimistic.
After all, would you invest in something offering an average 2% ROI (US GDP growth rate 2003), or something offering an average 8.5% ROI (Chinese GDP growth rate 2003)?
Remember: only 3 economic sources create wealth, Agriculture, Mining, and Manufacturing.  All the other garbage in a service economy just shuffles dollars around.  

3. It is a much larger problem than just "Will I lose my job!?!" Everyone deserves a fair shake at things, but the form that "Globalization" has taken in the US leaves far more negatives than positives.

* http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm601.cfm
* http://www.china-un.ch/eng/ljzg/shjjtj/t85857.htm

 

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Bob: Are you saying that the quality of the US Engineers is higher then other countries?

The PE in the US is a joke.  Most people doing engineering don't even have one.

This is were all the engineers that don't have degrees write in and say that the PE in the US is a bad idea, etc, etc.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

HgTX:

So basically your saying competion is good unless the US loses jobs.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Read For Comprehension.

I didn't say anything was good or bad.  This thread is ABOUT whether "offshoring" creates job loss.  I'm talking about *net* engineering job loss, not you take my job in the US and I go take someone's job in Sweden, and the Swede takes what your job would have been in Canada had you not already taken mine...

I quite explicitly said I was not discussing whether the pattern of job exportation from the US is a bad thing.  There are plenty of other threads about that.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

BobPE: are you aware of Ahrtered Engineer in the the UK and the commonwealth? Or professional engineering qualifications (Dottor Ingineur) in other countries in Europe?  For heaven's sake, most PE exmas in the US seem to be multiple choise- on another board here there's a question form the PE Civil engineering exam, where without any knowledge of the civil engineering, you can reduce the answers to a 50-50 guess......does that kind of thing really gaurantee US PEs are educated to a higher standerd than Engineers from other countries?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

QCE:

I think engineers with an American education set the bar, and I am proud to say that.  It is a good bar for others to reach for.
As for the PE being a joke, this just shows your ignorance, sorry for being so frank.  It is sad to see in my opinion.

DrillerNic:

I am aware of other countries attempts to license engineers and I hold this qualification in high esteem no matter the origin.  I would argue that we as engineers need to standardize on some licensure process so that those engineers in the common pool that QCE refers to can be understood for their position and those that choose the licensure path can go on to lead them.

Licensure gurantees my job here in the states, say what you will about that.  I know it would give other engineers security as well, hence my preaching all the time.  Engineers should not be reduced to a commodity to be offshored for cost.  If that is an ignorant opinion, well, I don't apologize.  I personally think we engineers are the leaders of the world and we need to step up and let others know this.

Go forward and seek licensure no matter what country you are in.  If you think licensure is worthless, then please stay away from licensure, we don't need you.

Bob

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Well, it doesn't really matter what we think of ourselves, or of other countries' engineers. The decision to outsource is a purely economic decision made by business managers, following the  implied requirements of our economic system. Outsourcing is now technically feasible due to improvements in communications and uniformity in standards and computor programs.

One can dampen the rate of transfer of jobs to overseas by impementing a VAT (value added tax) on all items and services purchased in the USA. In this way, US manufactured goods and services would not be as severely penalized for incorporating in there costs  the full tax burden of the US tax system ( thru payroll taxes, etc).

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I think that a form of license is a great idea, then may be we could control the current inappropriate use of the term engineer and start building some credibility.  We do have Institutes here in the UK but not every industry sets membership as a norm, Oil and Gas being one.  I am not saying that you are not an engineer if you don't go for membership , what I would like to say is that you can not use the title unless you are. It would be even better if they were standardise and globally recognised.  

Second point, I think most people would find it hard to distinguish between qualified / expereinced engineers, what ever the location.  I still think quality is the key and that does vary significantly.  Steel bought from the UK or US does not machine the same as that made in China.  Same spec allegedly.  Drills or cutting tools bought from the far east do not compete with those from Sweden Germany.  They never have.  The same with consumable goods, I have noticed a real difference in the quality of stuff on sale, it really is cr*p and at not so cheap prices in real terms.  We need to rethink, rebrand and re-sell

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

2
My parents came to the USA to have the good life. I intend to vote for political candidates that promise to preserve that good life for me and my decendents. I'm all for the rest of the folks in the world to have fruitful lives, but not at the expense of my job. Does anyone on this forum honestly wish to be out of a job due to offshoring? Are some of you folks that altruistic? Or are you brainwashed? Does anyone honestly think that the folks in the business world know the difference between a good engineer and a bad one? Engineering procured on the basis of low first cost will be shoddy engineering, subject to catastrophic failure. Our business leaders are offshoring jobs so that they can show a quick profit and get themselves a big raise, while leaving behind a mess for those that follow. Osma Bin Laden or Offshoring, whats the difference?

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE



Strong words there EddyC, have to agree with what your saying.


Keano.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

EddyC
 We just gotta work better and smarter.  I had a boss that use to say: "nothing cost as much as cheap engineering"

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I just ran into something that I thought would be very appropriate to add in this thread.

As many of us (US Citizens) are getting our taxes ready for the big day, I had to clarify a question from a very large tax software supplier, which many of us probably use.

Interesting to find out that they outside their customer service to India.  

 

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

In the UK, restricting the term 'Engineer' to professionally qualified engineers (as is the norm in some other European countries) is a lost battle.  In the Oil & Gas Industry, insisting on Chartered status for all engineers would be a problem as there isn't really an engineering institute focused on the Oil & Gas industry in the same way as the SPE is: believe me, I've looked!

It would be hard to standardise licensing globally: how do you compare the UK engneering education system with specialisation in school at 16 followed by 3-4 years of sudying only engineering, with the US or European model of later specialisation through school and university?  What about the German model that doesn't have professional qualifications, but a different enginering degree (Dr-Ing), gained at specialised universities for those that want it? What could be done (and in many ways is being done now) is saying that a Chartered engineer from the UK or Commonwealth country is equivalent to a PE in the US and a Dr-Ing from Germany and so on.

But this still wouldn't stop jobs going to lower cost centres: a Polish or Indian engineer with a professional qualification is still cheaper than a UK CEng or a US PE, and that has nothing to do with the quality of the Polish or Indian qualification and everything to do with the cost of living in Poland or India....saying otherwise is chauvanism at best and racism at worst.  I've received unbelievably shite work from PE Engineers in the US and really awful steel from the US Steel mill in Baytown Tx, but I'm not saying that all US goods are shoddy!

Gloabalisation is a fact, accept it and live with it; both the good points: food available out of season, a wider range of manufactured items for you to buy (some cheaper, some better than home produced stuff, some cheaper and better!) and the bad points: jobs moving to lower cost areas.  Your response should be to either move to the lower cost areas yourself, or offer higher quality, value added services where you are, not throwing the rattle out of your pram and arguing for a moat to be made around your country to keep the rest of the world out!

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Eddy C,
I am not sure if Bin Laden even compares (even though he was CIA-trained).
Generally, you can't believe what any politician promises. In the recent debates, Kerry claimed to be against out-sourcing, however, he voted for NAFTA, years ago. As i said in another thread, the govmint generally listens to its biggest campaign contributors, and not the American public as a whole (we have too many dissenting opinions).

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Globalisation might be here to stay but it threatens most of us as well.  Thats the point.  Anything that involves human input can be challenged.  Can we all re-invent ourselves in time?  Just how many jobs are there out there that will allow us to do that and support us once we've done it? Its not throwing the rattle from the pram, this is really effecting people.  Just upping sticks and following the job is not an option for most and this too can really challenge the foundations of family life.  Look at the performance of the O&G industry.  I do agree with adding value and accepting change but we all need some kind of stability at some point.  And we are losing that.  Rapid change gives no time to think, plan or embed.  Is it more the case that we should let engineering go, as we did with cave painting, roof thatching and should we add looking after each other to this list?

I guess what we have to do is sit back and wait for our country to have its foundations ripped apart, wait for the population to realise that cheap is not always best, become a third world country itself and then start all ovcer again.
 

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

The whole reason that engineers try to restrict who does engineering is to ensure that there is some level of minimum quality. Quality of engineering work (and public safety) cannot be assured if engineers in the USA are unemployed and willing to do substandard (read cheaper) work in order to survive. Offshoring will end up with engineering being done by anyone (engineer or not) at any price. This work will end up being turned over to a stateside PE for review and approval. The PE will essentially be "rubber stamping" the work since he/she is struggling to survive and can offer services only at the lowest possible price. Engineering work will go to "the lowest bidder" rather than "the lowest RESPONSIBLE bidder". When the results of "engineering by the lowest bidder" makes itself know, the effect will be no different than a terrorist attack.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

EddyC,

Is there a way to stop this offshoring without political intervention?

Would political intervention work in this day with organisation like the WTO?

Lately most of the US trade restrictions that have been brought in to protect US jobs have been shot down and the ones that are remaining are starting to cause trade restrictions on the US by ally countries.

EU to slap extra 15% duty on range of US goods

BRUSSELS: The European Union plans to slap an extra 15 percent import duty on a range of US goods over Washington’s failure to apply an international trade ruling against an anti-dumping law, the EU executive said on Thursday.

The duty would hit imports including paper, agricultural, textile and machinery products from May 1, and affect slightly less than $28 million in trade, the European Commission said.

“The Commission took this latest step in the dispute over the Byrd Amendment in light of the continuing failure of the United States to bring its legislation in conformity with its international obligations,” it said in a statement.

The level of EU retaliation would be revised annually to adjust to the level of damage caused to EU companies, it said. While the Commission’s plan needed the formal approval of EU ministers, this was expected to be a formality, officials said, adding there were no plans to meet US officials before the additional duty came into force.

Neither was there a meeting planned between EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson and US Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick — until recently US trade representative — who is scheduled to be in Brussels early next week, they said.

In November, the World Trade Organisation gave approval to the EU, Japan and others to apply an initial $150 million in trade sanctions after Washington failed to conform with a WTO ruling to repeal a subsidy programme for US companies.

Known as the Byrd Amendment, the programme distributes funds raised by anti-dumping duties on imports to the companies that initially requested government anti-dumping protection.

More than $1 billion has been doled out to US ball bearing, steel, seafood, candle and other companies under the Byrd Amendment over the past four years. Canada is expected to announce similar measures against the United States, its top trading partner, later on Thursday.

Mostly textiles: Most of the products to be hit with the EU’s extra duty relate to textiles — trousers and overalls made of synthetic fibres, for example. The only agricultural item is sweetcorn.

Five areas of stationery are also targeted, while in the machinery sector the products listed are crane lorries, along with spectacle frames and mountings.

The WTO gave Canada and the other co-complainants the authority to retaliate. The other countries involved include Mexico, Japan, India and Brazil.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

"Just upping sticks and following the job is not an option for most"

makeup, you are very fortunate. My father was an engineer, and we moved 5 times before I left home (and they moved twice more afterwards before he retired). I have moved 7 times so far, each time I changed jobs.

So, while it is jolly nice to live in one place all your life, I do not think that the rest of the world has that luxury.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

(OP)
GregLocock:
This article is about China getting more of the Australian automotive work-
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ion_collapse_puts/index.htm

So where will engineering be in 5 years-- looks like it will be mostly in China.  Who will tell all the engineering students that they are studying to be migrant workers?

Ron

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I think you are right, dinosaur manufacturing industries, such as shipbuilding, automotive, and personal computers, will tend to move to those countries that have the right sort of infrastructure (modern) and the right sort of wages (low) and the right sort of workforce (motivated).

This is the way it always has been. The only way that countries with higher than average wages can survive is by doing something better than the rest of the world. Since, demonstrably, product engineering can largely be done anywhere in the world, there is no necessity to have your product engineering co-located with your manufacturing plants. So, so long as product design engineers can out-engineer the competition, cost effectively, they will have a job.

Obviously some engineers are required on-site, and quite why China is not chock-a-block with unemployed American engineers improving their factories and products is beyond me. The market is there.

Incidentally I suspect there is a lot more to the Ion collapse than that story says, I have never, ever, considered buying shares in them, their acquisition strategy seemed insane, and their public statements seemed to be long on spin.(That's the polite version).



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

QCE, (speaking in my field, structural design of buildings)the reasons that American engineers do the engineering design of major projects in foreign countries is frequently because the Architect is American, or the American Engineers have the best basic "know-how" to get the job done. And, it is not just American Engineers. You can rely on French, German, British, etc. also. Experience counts.
Your comment about the American PE being a "joke" is very odd.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

EddyC- suely it's quite easy to put a quality assurance section into an offshoring contract?  Something like "all work will be done done PE's or equivalent"?

A couple of years ago was in drilling in the Ukraine (one of the 8 times I've moved in the last 6 years) and the quality of geoscientists there was outstanding- every single mudlogger had a PhD!  Someone will soon take a deep breath and bring an Eastern European Oil Service Company onto an installation in the North Sea and then the likes of Halliburotn, Schlumberger etc will have to reduce their prices or leave....Cheaper doesn't always mean worse! Now I notice that Schlumberger have opened up a seismic and petrophysiscs centre of excellence in Moscow- and petrophysiscs & log analysis is one of those things that can be done anywhere where there's an internet link...so start learning Russian if you're in that part of the upstream O&G business!

But on a broader note, while the US was exporting jobs and so on to the rest of the world (most of the early North Sea boom was engineered in the States for example) no-one was compalining in the US- UK based engineeers educated themselves, changed from industrial engineers to offshore engineers and undercut the guys from Houston...and then started doing stuff in the US...  it's what happens, it's called progress in a global world.  Having benefitted from open trade and exporting goods and services to teh rest of the world for over 100 years, to then deny these benefits to other countries is selfish- even though the self interest is understandable!

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I love this site you get some great points of view, long may it continue.

GreLocock

In the day of your parents, the man was probably the main bread winner and the wife stayed at home.  Today both adults tend to work and a change in location affects 2 people not one and if you both have an interest in career development then the problems start.  No engineering position offers the benefits or stability that would allow my wife to even consider giving up her career to start somewhere else.  These moves for me just dont add up and following the job is not an option and the stakes need to be raised significantly if this is to change.  Totally opposite to current trends.  My answer has been to re-invent myself, change career, not what I want but its not that bad.  

The problem for me is that I no longer have a viable outlet for the skills that I have spent 25 years getting, some are relevant but the BENG degree, why did I do that?. Why didn't I do an MBA?  and this will affect a lot of people.  The benefits working in or for engineerng do not make moving a viable option.  It will take to long to redeem the capital outlay involved with relocation and the risks involved are totally in my lap.  All in all not worth it and not worth the worry just a bit disappointing because I am an engineer at heart.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

What proof do any of us in the USA have that the offshored engineering work is being done by real engineers? Since the folks in other countries are not subject to US regulations, who's to say who ends up doing the engineering? This is precisely the reason that PE licensing exists in the USA. Does India or China or wherever have a similar credential? Is it equivalent to what we have in the USA? After all, you can't do certification testing on buildings & infrastructure, like you do on an airplane in order to validate your design. The engineering quality control is on the input side in regards to building design via proper credentials (the PE). Does anyone honestly think that business folks have any idea what real engineering (or real work) is all about? Offshoring is just the business religion of the day.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I am just now, considering a Bachelor of Science and perhaps a masters degree in Computer engineering.  I have a degree in Mechanical engineering, but since manufacturing is leaving this country,  I am not sure I want to spend any more time or money in up dating skills, or searching for a job, in this field.   I have looked for a job for two years with no results.  I live in Michigan  where automotive is the key sector, and currently in a down turn.  Also GM instructed it's suppliers to off shore their factories (an article in the Detroit paper), to save them money.  In short the future  in manufacturing does not look good.  Would this second degree in computer engineering help me to obtain employment?  I want to move away from manufacturing.  I would appreciate  any opinions.  My second option is nursing (an RN ).  I am at a cross road now, trying to make  a choice.  I understand the love of techincal professions etc.  but  I also need to make a living.  Engineering will always be my first  choice. Any opinion you could offer a newby would be appreciated. Since you are all in the engineering profession, I trust your word against anything a counselor at school would tell me.  

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

ginger092892:

The true irony of the situation:

If GM offshores all it's suppliers and puts those people out of jobs, then there are just that many fewer people that afford all those new, over-appreciated cars and trucks.
End result = GM financial woes continue.  (Do you really think China is going to purchase GM when they have their choice of 15 or so National brands to select from?...)

I have no good advice for you, other than keep trying.
Maybe look to bio-engineering to blend a field fairly exclusive to the US with your love of engineering.
Good luck, keep after it, and don't get too down in the dumps from what you read on here.  The sun still shines!


 
 

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I stepped out and now earn more money, work less hours, have more holiday, get better training, have an excellent work-life balance, can work from home, organise my own diary, get a pension, regular pay rises and excellent bonuses, expenses plus paid.  The only thing I miss is the pressure and fun that the Oil and Gas industry gave me, as for the rest there is far better to be had.

My mother made an excellent career out of nursing, didn't start until we had grown up, she was 36.  She is just retiring and went from student nurse to cancer specialist earning £40K+.  She is planning to write a book and training material in her retirement.  What do you have to do to earn £40K in IT these days.  She has had continuity and support throughout.  Try one for a few years and if you dont like it change to the other.   

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I think Computer Engineering would be a very risky step. Remember, offshoring started in the IT field.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Ginger:
Consider structural engrg (building and/or residential). There some of the work is being offshored, but so far, it has not been much of a threat to job security.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Please enlighten me on why people here all of a sudden think the US PE system is so great.

I'm sure we will hear from many that disagree with your position.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Outsourcing jobs is an unpleasant task ,but is essential for the business. This is a fact and also is the order of the day. It started with OSHA regulations(For foundry industry) and then IT now the tentacles have spread all over. US  industry buys castings at ridiculously low prices from India and China. The benefits of this purchase naturally goes to US industry. Also I am told that people are no longer interested in such industries. In Uk about 10 years ago young boys were reluctant to work in foundries as their girl friends refused to date. This was a social problem. No one complained when such assignments started coming to other countries. Castings are needed in all places but thhere is a reluctance to manufacture. Such dichotomies may exist in other fields too. Please do not think it is lucrative to sell to US, domestic market is more attractive,thanks to China which buys scrap from US at 300$/ton and sells castings at 950$/ton. Amazing!!.

Engineering is a specialised faculty and cannot be displaced so easily,like a banking(account details etc) or customer care activity.

US engineers only need to refocus their synergies and strengths(available in plenty),

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

ginger092892:

One field that is opening up to mechanical engineers ( providing you are 25-35 yrs old) is in the electric power generation field. That industry has become aware that they have zero professionals in that age group, and realize that in 10 years all current profesionals will retire en masse on the same date. To offset that "wave", most electric utilities are offering early reirement for anyone over 50 yrs old and looking to hire the 25-25 age group to fill in the gap.

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

Ginger092892: the asme thing that Davefitz is alluding to is happening in the upstream O&G industry: the average age of engineers is climbing ("young" these days is below 38) and the Oil Cos and Oil Service Cos are biggining to panic...in a few years (maybe even starting now), it will be a sellers market for engineering and geoscience professionals!

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

davefitz,

It's the same story for the electrical engineers in the heavy electrical industries - generation, transmission, petrochem, etc. How the wheel has turned: the engineers of my generation suffered badly when the UK electricity industry was privatised. At that time there were more engineers than jobs, so pay was indifferent and openings were rare. Now we're an increasingly valuable commodity. Bring it on!!

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE

I am not so sure that the petrochem will be a sellers market re: engineering. Based on the curent rapid increase in China developement of oilfields in south america as well as China seas, the china petrochem industry will soon be able to market its engineering abilities as turnkey EPC contractors to wesern developers. That will basically outsource the petrochem EPC to China, and skip the "renaissance" of western engineeering.

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