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MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience
3

MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

(OP)
I have read and heard the expression, “over qualified,” as a viable reason for having problems finding employment.  Is this an excuse for poor career management?   When someone becomes highly educated outside the normal work force (AKA academia), why do they presume that the education will be an asset for finding a job?  Is this the sales pitch that is given at universities?  

I believe that higher education is a great thing for personal achievement; however it is not a guarantee for easy money.  There are many government jobs that base pay scale on education and experience.  For the rest of the workforce, I would expect that experience, quality of work, and productivity are more important than a MS or PhD.  

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

It is very simple - if you want employment at a regular consulting (other than research/scentific) firm, don't expect a MS or PHD to be a bargaining chip.
I know I could make more money driving a garbage truck, but being an engineer is my calling. My MS degree may not have been useful salary-wise, but it sure gave a good technical foundation in the real world.
Some employers value the higher degree, but most don't.

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Over-qualification in the abstract sense is simply a mismatch between supply and demand.

TTFN

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

IR, very wise statement. I wanted to add the statement that in hi-tech industries such as aerospace and electronics, biomedical engrg, etc, the higher degrees are valuable. I was speaking from just my experience, in structural design for the building industry.

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

(OP)
So when someone complains that they are over-qualified and, as a result, cannot find suitable work, should this be considered poor career management by them?   If so, does this poor career management reflect something about the person who complains using the term over-qualified when describing himself/herself?

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Not necessarily poor career management.  I agree with FalseP: "most don't".

This discussion has been presented before in several forms.  My personal rant is that when employers will take a graduate of a 2-year Engrg Technology program or even the so-called "non-degreed engineers" and call them "Engineer" in order to fill a slot the cheapest way possible, then the value of my graduate studies turns worthless.  Except that it helps me in the technical aspects of my job, but it has dubious worth as far as wage-earning power over a regular BS degree.

My regular experience in this poor economy was that I was in a Catch-22:  overqualified because of Master's, they were interested in having Master's-level asset for a BS-level job, but if I agreed to accept a lower salary they were suspicious that I would quit ASAP for higher pay....so it wasn't offered.

TygerDawg

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Not necessarily "poor career management," but most certainly, "poor job search management," and possibly some laziness or possibly some undue ego.

TTFN

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Overqualification, if it really exists, doesn't just mean that the degree doesn't give you an adantage, though.  It means that having the degree is an active detriment.

It does happen sometimes.  Usually, though, the overeducated applicant also lacks some of the practical experience that the less-educated candidates have, so it's difficult to isolate overqualification as a true cause of unemployment.

Hg

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

While I have M.S. in Che. eng. that took 3.5 years part-time, and about 4 years practical experience in plants and projects, I feel that my practical experience is more valuable than the degree especially when the field does not need high educated employees.
Therefore, if u want to balance on a dep. u will look first of degrees and then into the experience. The more educated employees in any dep., the much better from qaulity as well as the high level of understanding and building relationships.

Now I am thinking of the PhD degree while I am working currently in a big project.
What to do? I don't know just to keep working in the project to build strong experience background and the PhD can be earned later!

Regards

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Having experience, good quality of work, high prodcutivity etc. only shows what you can do now. The advantage of a higher qualification is that it shows that you can learn and therefore shows that you have the ability to do more and different things in the future. It's not uncommon for an employer to take on someone who has a high qualification in a different subject for what he is being employed as, simply because that employer knows that that person can quickly learn the job and also bring something new to the company. The problem in most cases is that when you are applying for a job in your own discipline then a highly qualified person will be rejectd as he'll be clever than his boss, and nobody wants that, now do they?

corus

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Can I understand from you corus that I gave up from my thinking in getting PhD due to the frustration might be a result from the boss?

Regards

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

CRG, you would benefit from reading my comments as well as the responses of others in Thread731-105240.

Maui

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Logic suggets that more education provides better income.  This is not always true.  Also, sometimes the expectations or other aspects do not match the additional education.

I know a few engineers who became lawyers then came back to engineering.  They work and are paid as engineers.  However, they are more valuable, likely paid at a higher rate than another engineer.

Consider the other extreme.  You and your high-school pal both finish high school.  One spends about five-years to get a BSEE.  The other becomes an apprenece craftsman.

After the five-years required to get the BSEE one paid out for room, board, tuition books, etc. to get to the point to start work as an engineer. After the five-years the apprentice craftsman is a journeyman making top rate.   Starting pay for the engineer may be close to the income of the craftsman but likely double the rate in another 10 years.  The expectation for getting the engineering degree is likely for a good income.  However, it will take a while to earn more than the craftsman did.

John

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

brainstorming,
There is a certain psychology at play in the workplace which is essentially animalistic in nature. The gaining of a higher qualification might pose a threat to your boss's position in the hierarchy as the Alpha male/female and so they might discourage you. You could try submissive grooming to pacify them, but I wouldn't encourage that unless you worked in a hairdressers.

corus

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Though there are a lot of ways to figuratively roll over and show one's neck and belly.  

There was another thread that I can't find now, about someone who was having trouble at work because he was better educated than everyone else there and they all thought he was arrogant.  Might be relevant here, even though in that case he already had the job.

Hg

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

My son fought several battles in interviews with comments that he was overqualified for the position he was applying.  My two cents worth is that if the comment comes across that he is overqualified, either he did not stress his capabilities enough, the interviewer was looking for a reason to disqualify him, or something was lacking in the communication.
The adage that some lower paying firms will not hire an upper level educated person is that they may find a better paying job and leave is just bunk.  I would gladly hire a PhD for a lower position simply that they bring a level of expertise to the group not available with either a non college graduate or a field trained person.  Let the applicant decide if they want to apply for a lower paying position, not the interviewer.
Lastly, if a subordinate performs well, that makes the rest of the department look good, me included.
Franz

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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

(OP)
franzh, I have to agree with you.  I believe that when someone pulls out the excuse that they are/were overqualified, it means that there is something else at play.  The problem can usually be found directly between their ears.  The threads I have read where this has been discussed seem to have a self-pity tone by those claiming the problem.  I have never heard the phrase overqualified from someone with ambition, confidence, enthusiasm, and a willingness to work.

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience


Then, what to do with a problem of being overqualified and facing a boss has threat from such qualification.

Really this is a massive and certainly horrible situation.
You might find out ways or solution for this problem.!!!

Regards


 

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

CRG,
Unfortunately I have personally been told by a manager that my qualifications for a position I was applying for were more than required. Even when I offered to alter my CV to remove such unnecessary degrees, they still refused to consider me. Clearly the glint of intelligence cannot be hidden.
It is far from the truth to suggest that it is self pity that has invented this problem. Depending on which position you are applying for, and how desperate you are for work, it is best to have several CVs, each with different levels of qualifications you have obtained.   

corus

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Time to disagree, or at least provide alternative opinions.

Every business is in the business to....MAKE MONEY.   Your business makes money by minimizing expenses and maximizing revenue.   These are simple facts of life, and if a business doesn’t manage this way, it will not survive.

Some have said above that they would gladly hire a PhD for a lower position as they would be bringing in an added level of expertise.  Unfortunately, if that person is still categorized at the “lower position”, the company must (a) pay him at a low level, or (b) pay him more than the revenue the company expects to receive.  Even if the PhD agrees to employment at a relatively low wage, as a hiring manager I must consider the possibility that this employee will not be happy in this position (I assume the person got his/her PhD for a reason....), and I will lose them before I “get my money’s worth”.  The term “over qualified” is very applicable in this case.  

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience


The following posts are mine from thread Thread731-105240

"The PhD can prove useful in industrial research jobs and tenure-track academic positions. If your goal is to obtain an industrial engineering position, then the PhD will close more doors for you than it will open. You will hear the phrase, "You're overqualified" more often than not. The pay that you recieve will not be substantially greater than the pay earned by someone with an MS degree in the same discipline. And you may unknowingly inspire a sense of jealousy in your less secure co-workers who do not have an advanced degree. If your goal is simply to work in an industrial engineering position that does not involve research, then obtaining the PhD will serve no useful purpose, and will likely make your job search and work life much more difficult. The MS degree will benefit you much more."

"... what I find that surprises many people about having that degree (a PhD) in your arsenal is that employers are reluctant to hire you unless they absolutely need someone with your particular skill set. There are several downsides that a potential employer sees in hiring a PhD when they could just as easily hire a BS or MS candidate. For example, they are afraid that you will become bored and seek employment elsewhere as soon as a better job comes along. Then they will have to go through the hiring process all over again. Why should they put themselves through that when they can simply pay someone who is not overqualified less money to do the same job? And the lesser qualified candidate will probably be less likely to jump ship as quickly. There is a general perception that PhDs are over-educated individuals who lack practical hands-on experience and common skill sets. This perception is, at least in my particular case and those of my fellow PhDs, untrue.

Other factors also come into play when they do in fact need to hire a PhD. Affirmative action criteria must be applied at all levels in a company, and that includes research positions that are usually filled by PhDs. I myself have been denied the opportunity to interview at more than one company/academic institution because I am not a minority. I know this is a fact because a friend of mine at one major production company told me precisely that when he explained to me why I would not be interviewed for the job that he originally encouraged me to apply for. The odd part is that many of the foreign-born students who win fellowships to come here to study for their PhD (which you and I pay for with our tax dollars) are typically hired much more quickly by US companies than US citizens provided they have the paperwork to remain here. It's a good deal for them, and can leave a bad taste in the mouth of Americans like myself. Most people who have not been through this may find it difficult to comprehend. Our own system discourages Americans from earning a PhD. If you look at any engineering PhD program in the US, the vast majority of the students in that program are probably not Americans. It should not be this way, but I see no motivation for this to change anytime in the near future."

I stand behind these statements.

Maui

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

I think it is true that getting a higher degree makes your thinking more critical...


APH

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

CRG,
Corus did not say that a doing a PhD makes you more intelligent. If you have a PhD you are probably more intelligent in the first place. It is not a cause and effect issue.

General comments:

PhD graduates need to understand that, to an employer, their factual specialist knowlege is not likely to be that important. They need to be able to get across to the employer that it is their transferable skills which give them the edge.

A PhD graduate is (by definition) a scientist. They will (generally) have excellent critical and analytical skills. They will be good problem solvers. They know how to learn. They should have (after writing and defending a thesis and other scientific papers) excellent verbal and oral communication skills. During a PhD a good student will have effectively managed a 3 year research programme, usually on a very tight budget. They will probably be highly proficient in a number of specialist (eg FE, CAD, programming languages) and general (eg Word, Powerpoint, Access) software packages.

Likewise, employers have to learn what a PhD graduate can do for them. A "professional researcher" does not equal "someone who only does theory and knows nothing of the real world". This is quite often simply untrue.

Of course, some PhD graduates are more suited to jobs than others. I sure everone recognises the guy/gal whos idea of being extrovert is staring at someone else's shoes rather than their own, or the person who can talk to their peers but can't get their message across to the tech in the workshop, but to tar every one with the same brush is just plain ignorant.

Fortunately, there are engineering employers out there who do understand. It is interesting that many of them are those that began as university start-ups. Big multi-national financial corps are snapping up science and engineering PhDs as fast as the universities can turn them out because they have regognised the analytical and transferable skills. It's even starting to happen in some big engineering firms too.

Finally, I must add this caveat. My comments come from my experience of the European PhD system. US PhDs are a completely different kettle of fish.

M    

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Could you elaborate on your very tantalizing last statement?

William

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Only to say that I have no knowledge of US Doctoral degrees and I don't really know anyone who has been through the US PhD system so some of my comments may not apply. In the UK there are generally little or no lecture programmes during doctoral studies. They are pretty much 100% research. As I understand it this is not the case in the majority of US grad schools. Whether this is a good or bad thing for a prospective employer  of a PhD graduate is not something I am qualified to comment on.

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Mike,

All the stuff you mentioned above applies to PhD's across Canada and yes it is definitely a misconception that PhD's lack exposure to practical problems.  The Engineering PhD program here comprises of 75% research and 15% course work which is good in terms of aligning theory to practicals.

The PhD students in our Advanced Control department for instance are engaged in the design, manufacture and control of some complicated robotic systems so they do have the practical experience in all aspects of that field. At the end of their studies, most become experts in SolidEdge, MATLAB/Simulink, C/C++ and VB just to name a few.
The PhD's in the Process Control department accrue other skills which I am sure correlate to those required for some departments at Suncor, AspenTech, ControSoft etc. I also know that in Germany, a PhD is also highly regarded.  The top automakers such a BMW hire mostly Doctorates to design their engines, engine controls etc.   

Having said that, if an Advanced Control PhD graduate finds themselves applying for a plant engineering position in the process control industries, one that does not require an advanced education, they may be overqualified.  Such position s typically prefer years of experience rather than years of education which makes sense.  

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Hi everyone,

A fabulous thread - thanks, CRG, for starting it, and thanks to all who posted.  This topic is very "close to home" for me.  I have a B.S. and Ph.D. in aerospace engineering, pursuing the latter because I honestly believed that a more advanced degree would improve my chances at getting a good engineering job.  After the five Ph.D. program years (in exactly the same environment as MikeyP describes) and three years as a research scientist, I am 100% certain I do not want to be pigeonholed into a research or university career... but am not sure I can break back into my first passion, engineering, because of my Ph.D.  And I'd have a hard time hiding the degree on my resume (similar to corus's advice) - eight years of stuff is a big red flag.

I really feel that "overqualification" is wrong as a barrier to employment.  Each person knows best what their job abilities and desires are, and if he or she is looking for a job that is stereotypically "below their qualifications", he or she has a damn good reason for doing so.  (Why would anyone voluntarily seek a job "below them"?)
In my case, it's that I can't stand research and feel I would wither if I stayed in it.  Am I, as a trained researcher, overqualified to be an engineer?  I don't think so.  If anything, I feel I'm underqualified, as I don't have official engineering experience (my research's required a damn lot of engineering, but I know no one will recognize it as such).  And I, for one, would not expect any special perks from my Ph.D., because I know I'd actually need to catch up with my engineering colleagues.

It would be nice if employers would consider giving the people they deem "overqualified" an interview, to give them the chance to explain their motivation for seeking the position.  Alas, that doesn't seem to happen too often.

Good luck to anyone in a similar situation,
--Michael

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

I do know a number of PhD's working as engineers.  They do the same stuff as everyone else, but every once in a while, something nifty comes up that they're particularly well qualified to handle.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: MS, PhD: Overqualified or Not Enough Experience

Interesting thread.
Reminds me of the time while at Ford I told my manager I'd received my  MSME.
His response was, "Well I certainly hope you didn't think it would get you a raise!"

I began to understand why he'd been run out of Passenger Car by a revolt of his employees.

Now that I'm working in what is primarily a research and development position,  my management is glad to point to my educational achievements.

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