×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Engineering w/o school
8

Engineering w/o school

Engineering w/o school

(OP)
Here is the situation that I am in. I worked for the company I am at now about two years ago. I started at the bottom, material handler, and worked my way up to being a "Laser Technician". I was laid off, and called back about a year later. I am now the "Production Engineer" and do all the CAD work and all the programming for the lasers at our company. I have not had any schooling in this area, I went to a welding school.

What's the opinion on getting hired at another company for engineering. Is exerience worth anything without a degree?
-Tim

RE: Engineering w/o school

Depending on the laws in your state, and how the state board of engineers chooses to interpret and enforce them your company may be subjected to fines for have a non-licenced person (let alone a non-degreed one) in an "engineering" position.

You personnaly may be subject to fines if you represent yourself as an engineer on your resume.

RE: Engineering w/o school

You can always try.  In most cases the industrial exemption will apply and will be legal.  Selling yourself to a different company as an engineer will be difficult with such little experience (less than two years).

"Show me a technician claiming to be doing an engineer's job, and I will show you a technician complaining he/she does an engineer's job on a technician's salary."

RE: Engineering w/o school

(OP)
Anyone know about Illinois?

RE: Engineering w/o school

I have several friends who have worked at several companies as engineers but who either never started or completed a degreed course. It is their experience that allows then to perform the work. One of these friends has a whole string of patents, a few published papers, and even has chaired committees within his industry on setting standards - but only did three years of a 4 year degree.

One can have a technical career and can be employed at companies in a technical positions performing engineering work. However - using my firends experiences as an example - moving job-to-job without a degree is difficult, your capabilities are always somewhat suspect, and you may be paid lower.

Note also that in many states there are laws concerning the use of an engineering title outside the boundries of your employer. A person working for a company in many states can perform the work of an engineer for the company and have the title of an engineer but is exempt from these engineering regulations. I'll assume you post is not trying to address these wider issues of a licensed engineer and engineers who work in the Civil, Structural, etc disciplines whose designs can directly affect public safety.

RE: Engineering w/o school

How about going to get your engineering degree?  Although you say you are doing engineering, I suspect that to just be some title a company gave to you that has no value outside of the company.  As MintJulip indicated, these titles can and usually do get people into a lot of trouble.  You can't be an engineer without a minimum of a degree in engineering, but exempt companies can call you whatever they want.  People may argue that, but every degreed engineer would most likely agree and that is afterall what it is all about.

I would not hold myself out as an engineer in Illinois without a PE, that is for sure, they are tough.

Bob

RE: Engineering w/o school

Not to sound snobbish, but what your are doing doesn't really sound like engineering.

RE: Engineering w/o school

It appears common for people who work overseas to be promoted from technician to superviser to commissioning or field engineer.  Your situation sounds similar.

If changing companies, consider showing the promotional progression and indicate that the company title was engineer - in a clear manner without claiming to be an engineer.  Perhaps you can be creative in a manner that permits indicating the promotional increases.  Procede with caution.  Read the board rules for an engineering license in your state.

John

RE: Engineering w/o school

Tick...
What is your definition of "engineering"? Could be a source of controversy. We engineers, for the most part, have no idea of how to work on a car engine, or to keep a railroad engine going. Maybe the English word "engineer" is a corruption of a French word which literally means "ingenious person", i.e. someone very creative.

RE: Engineering w/o school

sr20ser,
  It is not unusual to get the title of engineer if you have skills that the company seeks.  I have held several positions with the title of engineer because that was how the companies could justify hiring me at the rate I was seeking.  I have never refered to myself as an engineer.  I recently requested a demotion from engineer to designer to escape being salaried-exempt.  Now I do the same job, get the same benefits, am guaranteed a set salary, and get paid time and a half for overtime.
In THIS type of situation, it's all semantics.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I don't want to cut down sr20sre's experience, just put it in perspective.

Quote (sr20sre):

What's the opinion on getting hired at another company for engineering. Is exerience worth anything without a degree?
This experience could get you a good job, perhaps even one titled "production engineer".  Is it engineering?  Not really.

Grits ain't grocery...
Eggs ain't poultry...
Drafting is not engineering
Scripting (i.e. "programming" CNC) is not programming
Programming is not engineering
Machining is not engineering
I have worked at all of the above, BTW.

Quote (FalsePrecision):

We engineers, for the most part, have no idea of how to work on a car engine
What engineers are you working with?  Most ME's I know do plenty of shadetree mechanicry.  Maybe I'm getting spoiled by the abundance of talented individuals around me, but my engineering world doesn't sound like yours.

What is an engineer?
<http://civil.engr.siu.edu/intro/definitions.htm>
Yes, I would have written something similar on my own, but then I would have to support it with documentation (another engineering function).


Quote (BobPE):

...I suspect that to just be some title a company gave to you that has no value outside of the company
I'm with BobPE on this one.  Be careful you don't overvalue your market value based on one customer, your current employer.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I've met 2 people over the years who are engineers by experience. Both had the ability to come up with lots of interesting solutions to complicated problems. Both had many (10+) years of experience and seemed naturally gifted. Both had their own businesses. One worked under the industrial exemption while the other did not and had to rely on a PE to review, modify & stamp his work. Both of these folks would be a natural asset to any company.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Tick...
I think you miss the whole point of sr20e's first post.
You certainly missed the point I made. I have a great sense of humor, and I don't feel threatened by sr20e's assertion that he can do engineering-type tasks.
Your reasoning sounds a lot like a put-down.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Oh and by the way...I can do shade-tree mechanics also. But cetainly don't describe myself as an engine expert.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Quote (FalsePecision):

Tick...
I think you miss the whole point of sr20e's first post.
Gee whiz, after I even took the time to requote his question and answer it directly in the first paragraph of my post!

I don't think anyone is doing this person a favor by overstating the value of his experience.  Lots of people can do some engineering tasks.  I can do some first aid, but I am not a doctor.

Nothing wrong with being a great technician.  Probably the most undervalued position in any enterprise.  Someone needs to "make it happen".  One reason I have been successful as an engineer is that the technicians I work with know without a doubt that I have respect for what they do.

I prefer to leave my "School of Hard Knocks" diploma and soapbox in the corner collecting dust.  Suffice it to say that I do know what it is like to work up to engineering from the shop floor.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I still disagree with Tick and also Slugger926 - let me politely point out why:

Suppose a person got a job working in the lab of an eyeglass retailer, such as L***crafters. If that person was titled as "Production Engineer", or "Lens Engineer", it would be perfectly legal and ethical as long as he (she) was not presented to the customer who is buying the eyeglasses as an engineer. Chances are, there would be no contact with the customer anyway. Finally, I would not see this as a "trick" by management to avoid the extra cost of hiring a degreed Optical Engineer.
And this whole scenario would certainly not be an issue with the State Board of licensing for Engineers.

RE: Engineering w/o school

My experience is that especially with private companies that if you are doing what they want and you don't have a degree, they have you.  You can't move on to another job so easy that pays the same, but at the same time you are cheaper than an engineer.  They don't have to give you raises, and they can probably train someone to replace you fairly fast.  The title is to keep you happy with a lower pay.

Check and see if your company has tuition re-imbursement and use that to get a B.S. degree at the minnimum.  (Where is spell check on here?)

Good luck and document all of your experience, it will help you when you do get that degree and move on.  You would be surprised how much warehouse experience, and manufacturing experience has helped me in my job.  I understand what my own warehouse and vendors have to go through to meet my needs.

RE: Engineering w/o school

OK, Tick, what you are saying:
1) The job title will be called "Production Engineering"
2) Supposedly, its a "good job"
3) However, it isn't really engineering

No wonder I am so confussed!

RE: Engineering w/o school



This topic has been discussed in great detail in other threads.

Anyone lacking a PE cannot advertise themselves as an "Engineer".

Companies define "engineering work" in broad strokes, if only to attract a certain type of laborer.

Depending upon skillset, a non-degreed technician can often do the same type tasks as an "Engineer" would, but lacks the legal and ethical credentials to stand alone on his own work.

However, "engineering" has existed long before diplomas and certifications muddled the whole mess up.

The Wright Brothers were bicycle mechanics for goodness sake, and now a whole discipline of "Engineering" revolves around the stuff they "blindly" dabbled in.

A PE friend once explained it to me like this: "Technicians and machinists and mechanics make the world go around, but the Engineers make sure that no one is gonna get hurt along the way."

No disrespect to sr20ser intended.  The Tick is correct.

RE: Engineering w/o school

My experience is that especially with private companies that if you are doing what they want and you don't have a degree, they have you.  You can't move on to another job so easy that pays the same, but at the same time you are cheaper than an engineer.  They don't have to give you raises, and they can probably train someone to replace you fairly fast.  The title is to keep you happy with a lower pay.

Check and see if your company has tuition re-imbursement and use that to get a B.S. degree at the minnimum.  (Where is spell check on here?)

Good luck and document all of your experience, it will help you when you do get that degree and move on.  You would be surprised how much warehouse experience, and manufacturing experience has helped me in my job.  I understand what my own warehouse and vendors have to go through to meet my needs.

RE: Engineering w/o school

2
SR20ser
Several people have encouraged you to go to school or take classes.  I will give you the same advice I have given lots of people in your situation.
If you start somekind of engineering program in four years it will be 2009.  
If you don't start somekind of a program in four years it will be 2009.
In 2009 you'll look back and reflect on what you did. That's the time to reflect, the time to decide is now.

RE: Engineering w/o school

The bottom line is that your company knows what value you bring to the table and may feel justified in calling you "engineer" or "Grand Poobah."  

However, any other company will probably not be so inclined, since they haven't seen your work.

Regardless of the perceived "worth" of a degree, most companies use that as the minimum standard to determine whether they hire you as an engineer.

TTFN

RE: Engineering w/o school

Anyone ever heard of the term "field engineer"? (not an official tittle in my company)

Buyer to me: "I found a rental crane to do that job next week, these are the specs.."

Me: Looks good but I want to see it first, together with HSE,  combine it with the safety inspection.

Buyer on the phone:.. I will send my field engineers to evaluate your equipment..

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

RE: Engineering w/o school

svanels,

It's a pretty common title. Field engineering is often not engineering work. It is usually technician-level work. Installing and starting up equipment, troubleshooting broken equipment, etc. all fall under the realm of field engineering. Sometimes this is called field service engineering or customer support engineering. There is typically no design in this sort of work.

xnuke
"Do you think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Field engineers generally fall into two classes, the one mentioned above as being essentially repair and maintenance engineer AND the other being essentially an applications engineer, e.g., someone who determine the best fit between the available products and the application intended by the customer.

While the latter has some elements of design, it's at a very superficial level.

While I likewise have some hesitation to calling a field engineer a "true" engineer, a field engineer does have elements of being an engineer, e.g.:

>>  The troubleshooting aspect of the work can entail detailed knowledge of engineering principles and application of some modicum of skill on the part of the FE.

>>  The analysis of the situation to determine whether the equipment is being misused or misapplied likewise requires some engineering skill.

>>  The general lack of direct supervision and autonomony is usually considered to be a measure of the distinction from being a technician or even a junior engineer.

This puts the FE somewhere in between a classical technician and the typical engineer.

Some that work both the maintance and applications are sometimes referred to as field application engineers, FAEs.

TTFN

RE: Engineering w/o school

One of the reasons most state boards preclude the use of the term "Engineer" by non-engineers or unlicensed engineers, is that the term "Engineer" implies greater knowledge, greater responsibility, and instills greater confidence when used in the public realm, thus calling one an "Engineer" sounds more distinguished than "technician" or some other term.  Technicians called "Engineers" are easier to "sell" to the public than technicians who are called "technicians", particularly when they carry the title, have no license, have no ethical responsibility, and perform perfunctory tasks of trades or labor, thus are charged at significantly lower rates.

I charge for my time at a rate much higher than a technician.  My clients generally understand why.

The Tick is exactly right.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I still think certain posts above are missing the point. sr20ser is being called an engineer, for the purpose of in-house job description. He is not being advertised to the public (or a client) as an engineer. If the logic of certain posts above is true, then the concept of "railroad engineers" is contrary to your beliefs.

RE: Engineering w/o school

In the context of modern law, a "railrosd engineer" has no legal basis, particularly if that individual is NOT involved with the design and construction of railroad infrastructure.

TTFN

RE: Engineering w/o school


Most state laws say you have to be registered in accordance with their statues to practice engineering ( also defined in their codes).  You have to be registered to use the title "Profession Engineer" , "Registered Engineer" or "PE".  California for one doesn't have a catagory "railroad engineer" so I guess a person could be a "railroad engineer" the same as he/she could be a "building engineer", "operating engineer","facilities engineer", "marine engineer" "stationary engineer", "sanitation engineer" or "domestic engineer".  The last two I believe have been the subject of court cases- I'm not sure of the outcome.  
The word engineer in a job title evolves from a time when that job was more complicated and at the then edge of technology.   Train engineers  in the 19 th century may not have gone to college but the requirements of the job require more than monkey see, monkey do type work.  
Many of these early jobs may have required more knowledge and responsibility than some the engineering jobs today that are held by "real" engineers.

RE: Engineering w/o school

2
IRStuff--your description of what you hesitate to call a "true" engineer sounds like my job.  Guess I better go turn in that engineering license.  

Either that or design isn't the be-all and end-all of engineering...?  Nah, couldn't be.

Hg, P.E.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I know one of my friends started from an operator (high school qualification) and becomes an operation manger.
How is that!
When he started his first assignment as an operator, he spent enough time for him to get used to the operation of the plant, then he decided to leave his work and go to study B.S. in che. eng.
He did go for studying and when he came back to the same plant he had worked before, he was welcomed and hired as a senior engineer. After couple of years, he has prompted to e an operation manger.
This is a real story not something I brought from my mind.

Then, I advise you to join a university (if your budget allows for that) and get the degree to get a better job.
If not possible, try to study as a part time or by correspondences (at least) to get a degree.
Personally, I started my work with B.S. degree in che. eng, at the same time I studied M.S. in che. as a part time, and fortunately I got it after 3.5 years.

Regards

RE: Engineering w/o school

Ron,

Can we PLEASE stop this whole line of crap that PE's are more ethically responsible than non-PE's?  That whole argument is condesending and offensive!  Everyone has an ethical responsibility to perform their job functions to the best of their ability.

I will agree that PE's are more finacially responsible for their designs.  And I will admit, that I can see how this will lead to safer designs (fear of losing everything they own in a lawsuit), but that does NOT make them more ethical.  If you do something only because you are afraid of retribution (i.e. lawsuit), then you aren't making the choice out of some higher moral code.  I always look at ethical / moral behavior as doing the right thing when noone is looking.

Please continue the debate over the value of licensing, but cut out the condensending line of baloney over ethics.  It really takes away from the whole argument!

RE: Engineering w/o school

melone , Ron
Please stop talking away from the subject as we are anticipating better outcomes and solutions not to create barrier from reaching such targets.
back to the subject, I think sr20ser you might look for a part time programme to study further in your field or your interest while you are working to build experience >=5 years at least (normally the engineer needs 3 years to build his background and be capable to be independent)

Regards

RE: Engineering w/o school

melone:

No disrespect intended:

A PE has the ethical prerogative to understand when designs are appropriate and when they are not.  A PE has the ethical responsibility to make sure that designs are sound, and even correct unsound elements regardless of cost or delay.

A PE gains this prerogative through demonstrated training and experience. When you see "PE" by someone's name, you know that they have been exposed to, subjected to, and practiced in a highly complex level of training in sciences and maths.  They don't give out "PE" stamps around for the heck of it, it really designates a level of competency.

This is not to say that on the basis of individual ability that "technicians" are subordinate to "engineers", but it does mean that in the eyes of our legal system that the "engineer" is qualified where the "technician" is not.

I agree with what Ron is saying.


RE: Engineering w/o school

melone:

Crap is a little odd of a word to use.  I would argue that PE's are more ethically (not morally) responsible since a PE can loose their license if the code of ethics governing the issuance of a license is violated.  This is not to say a non-PE is any more or less ethical or that a Pe is more or less ethical, but there is no obligation for the non-PE to comply with the ethics governing PE's based on punishment.

I think this is a big deal and a major reason why we PE's all preach licensure.  It also plays a big part in the original conversation, as we are trying to educate sr20ser rather than just bark back opinions.

Bob

RE: Engineering w/o school

(OP)
Wow, i think I may have twisted some panties. I know that I am not an engineer, nor do I claim to be. I know my limitations with the work I can do. I am a damn good machinist, and a better welder. All I was asking was the chances of going to another company for some engineering type job. Engineering I am sorry to say is not a narrow field. Engineering is to me, as most, is a broad range of tasks. Some consider playing with Legos' engineering.

I was not stating that I am an engineer. I know that what I have is a comapny title and probably will not carry much weight anywhere else, all I wanted to know was "Do companies look at experience, or do they look for degrees".
-Tim

RE: Engineering w/o school

(OP)
Wow, i think I may have twisted some panties. I know that I am not an engineer, nor do I claim to be. I know my limitations with the work I can do. I am a damn good machinist, and a better welder. All I was asking was the chances of going to another company for some engineering type job. Engineering I am sorry to say is not a narrow field. Engineering is to me, as most, is a broad range of tasks. Some consider playing with Legos' engineering.

I was not stating that I am an engineer. I know that what I have is a comapny title and probably will not carry much weight anywhere else, all I wanted to know was "Do companies look at experience, or do they look for degrees".
-Tim

BTW, yes I do plan on getting a higher education as the details are being worked out between me and the boss.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Rhodie...
Gosh, I always thought that an engineering stamp was in every 20th box of crackerjacks!

<sorry, I couldn't resist>

RE: Engineering w/o school



sr20ser:

The answer to your question: It depends on the company.

For what it's worth, I'd rather have your skills as a machinist and welder than a PE stamp any day.

-Rhodie
EIT, but a horrible welder.  :(

RE: Engineering w/o school

sr20ser, dump the sexist comments, there is no room here for any of that.

We go off on tangents all the time, if what we say doesn't apply, just ignore it.

bob

RE: Engineering w/o school

Back to the tangent...

Quote:

Engineering I am sorry to say is not a narrow field. Engineering is to me, as most, is a broad range of tasks.

Not to engineers it isn't, and that's the audience you're addressing here.  There are quite a few threads about how not holding to a strict definition of "engineer" (licensure a separate question) cheapens the entire profession.  Using "engineer" with a straight face  to refer to anything that involves either physical tinkering or dishing out advice is insulting to those of us who did go through all the education and training.

It's very rare to see "doctor" used for someone who doesn't hold a doctorate in something; even though nurses and physician assistants perform similar tasks, no one calls them "doctor" except in error.  The distinction between "paralegal" and "lawyer" is well-established.  And yet when engineers want the same kind of recognition of their profession, we're getting our panties in a bunch, making a big deal of nothing, whatever.

Skilled techs probably feel the same way when secretaries get referred to as "administrative technicians".

Hg

RE: Engineering w/o school

sr20ser,
My direct answer (opinion) to your initial question would be this; I wouldn't expect to have any other company take your experience as seriously as if you had the appropriate degree and licensure to go along with it.  There could be exceptions to that though.  If you know someone at another company well, they might be able to get you into a similar type of job as you're performing now, I suppose.  Otherwise, it will be tough.  You seem to be a bright person based on your achievements.  You should think about pursuing a degree and licensure.  I think you'll find it's well worth it.

HgTX,
Good points!  I like the way our company assigns job titles.  If you're a licensed engineer, you have the word "engineer" with a PE after your name.  If you're a recent graduate on the track to becoming a licensed engineer, you also get the word "engineer" with EIT after your name.  Field personnel are called "civil engineering technicians," or “environmental engineering technicians.”  Incidentally, I hear both are sufficient to impress members of the opposite sex.  They seem happy with it, they get to have the word "engineering" as an adjective, and it is certainly more accurate than calling them field engineers.  We've got some degreed personnel that are not engineers, but rather are referred to as "scientists."  That's ok, but it gets me wondering what constitutes a "scientist" and whether or not they actually are one.  I've got a buddy who's a machinist and both he and his employer actually refer to his title as a "machinist" which is also accurate.  I agree that using the title "engineer" for everyone who feels like it does, sadly, cheapen the title.  There's no reason it shouldn't be on par with titles of "doctor" and "lawyer" as you said.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Now, something comes to mind..
"Don't throw your pearls to swine"

RE: Engineering w/o school

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I propose the following:

engine, n.:  a device or machine designed to accomplish a particular pupose.  E.g., the term "engines of war" is used for catapults, etc., from Roman times.

engineer, n.:  one whose function is to design devices, machines, or systems for a particular purpose, according to principles learned through experience with heavy or mathematical reference to theory.

technician, n.:  one whose function is to operate specialized equipment, according to principles learned largely through experience and training with cursory or non-mathematical reference to theory.

professional engineer, n.:  one who by perseverence through specified rites of passage has demonstrated the ability to execute care in making calculations related to engineering.  The purpose of the EIT and PE exams is to show that these calculations can be made correctly under pressure and time constraints.

The military makes a distinction between officer and enlisted that is similar to that between engineer and technician.  It is primarily the distinction between a generalist with a broad education and a specialist with a specialized education.  Each has a part to play in getting things done.

Unfortunately, the ethical and contractual aspects of engineering, not to mention the business side, are entirely ignored by the undergraduate curricula.  You have to learn those on the job, but it seems that many expect someone to become an expert in them immediately on passing that PE exam.

Will-I-Am

RE: Engineering w/o school

And I forgot to include that much of what engineers do has had much of the fundamental engineering done already.  E.g., "engineering" a system out of the Square D catalog, but how many millions of man-hours have gone into making the catalog in the first place, or into getting the UL labels on the stuff you buy from it.

Is this enginnering?  Regardless, it is what most engineers do, electricals, anyway--piecing together systems out of pre-engineered components.

Will-I-Am

RE: Engineering w/o school


weh3:

Then what you are saying is that all a Chef does is throw together pre-gourmet components to make 5 star entrees.

RE: Engineering w/o school

A cook, perhaps.  A chef can certainly cook, but a chef is primarily a manager, and I am not speaking of management.

A chef who is chef to a king may spend spend his time making up new dishes, as it were in R&D, but a restaurant, a revenue-generating enterprise, has to live off pre-engineered dishes.  The phrases "cookbook design" and "reinventing the wheel" come to mind--thank you for the analogy.

Will-I-Am

RE: Engineering w/o school

weh3:

I would modify your defination of professional engineer:

A person that can legally dispense engineering adivce to any member of the public.   

It is not a rite of passage, it does not guarantee that anyone will make error free calculations, and has nothing to do with performing under pressure or time constraints.

I would also add that pretty much everything true engineers do has had no fundumental engineering done, that is why they are doing it in the first place.  Picking stuff out of a catalog is not engineering, knowing why you are picking stuff out of a catalog most likely is unless it is maintenance.


Bob

RE: Engineering w/o school

In additional to knowing why to pick a part, it's also knowing how to put the parts together to efficiently solve a technical problem.

Why are Widlar and Wilson associated with their respective current mirrors?  After all, they simply mixed existing transistors and resistors into absurdly simple circuits.  The total transistor and resistor component counts on either circuit barely exceeds 10.  Yet, nearly 4 decades after they completed their designs, students and engineers are still studying those circuits.

Jobs and Wozniak, Hewlett and Packard all picked components out of catalogs and created entire industries.

TTFN

RE: Engineering w/o school

The professional engineer has indeed endured certain rites of passage--proofs to his peers that he can function in the required capacity.  No one said anything about error-free calculations, only a reasonable standard of care.

I maintain that the main concern of the engineer is economics and not technology.  Technology is important, but it is secondary to economics.  The three elements of a project--scope, schedule, budget--are all economic considerations that the engineer must make decisions about.  Engineering something out of a catalog is no different.  No engineering project ever got shot down only because it was technically not do-able, but projects die everyday for lack of funding.

I also belive that most engineers desire the technology to be foremost, which accounts for the typical engineer's continual frustration with management (a la Dilbert).  Management understands the primacy of economics.  Someone wrote in a related forum that at some point you have to shoot the engineer and start production.  Hey, I are one, so I understand.

Someone who is continually going back to first principles, and who lacks one or more of the above listed constraints, especially scope, is a scientist, not an engineer.  However, even a scientist will begin by studying the relevant literature to find out what has gone before.

I suppose that I am distinguishing between engineering for revenue generation and engineering for invention or R&D.  I am a consultant whose clients don't want brilliant innovations; they want tried-and-true technologies for a given scope, schedule, and budget.  There are engineers developing those technologies, but even they rely on previous engineering to put a system together, standing on the backs of giants, as it were.

Cordially,
William

RE: Engineering w/o school

You are wasting your time.

If you want to be an engineer, you have to invest the necessary resources to be able to obtain a license to work legally.

If you do not obtain the proper license, you will be a sweat shop worker hired by a firm that is going to pay you substandard wages for illegally working without a license.

Ask yourself the question, will your insurance provider allow you to go to an unlicensed medical professional to save money? Is it acceptable to go to court with an unlicensed lawyer? Is it legal to give haircuts in your state without a license? Even mortgage brokers are now required to have a licensed in this state. Name a line of work where you can work without qualifications.

If you have read this far and want to read more, further discussion is in this posting.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=116661&amp;page=1

RE: Engineering w/o school

bimr,
I don't understand why you against calling someone with an engineering degree an "engineer".  It's one thing not having the degree, but another entirely to look down an someone with a degree as not being able to competently practice engineering.  The world is a big place, and doesn't solely revolve around those who are licensed.
I understand the importance of licensure, but is it necessary when developing a new software program?  Or figuring out how to get a better tv picture?
There are many fields in which a degreed engineer can work without being licensed and still be considered a real engineer.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Quote:

I don't understand why you against calling someone with an engineering degree an "engineer".

Gee, could it be because he is licensed?

Heheh.

RE: Engineering w/o school

Quote:

Is it acceptable to go to court with an unlicensed lawyer?

Of course, it is.  There is ABSOLUTELY no law that says that you need a lawyer to represent you.  Many famous cases, including Milosevic's are based on self-representation.


Our CEO makes decisions affecting billions of dollars of transactions and thousands of employees, but he's not licensed as a CEO

TTFN

RE: Engineering w/o school

Quote:

If you do not obtain the proper license, you will be a sweat shop worker hired by a firm that is going to pay you substandard wages for illegally working without a license.

Well, this certainly isn't true of Electrical Engineers IMHO. Out of all the EE's I know, only a few bother to get their PE and that is only because they are the primary qualifiers for a business. You must have a PE in order to use the term "Engineering" in the company name. Other than that....shrug.

RE: Engineering w/o school

is there a CEO license IRstuff?  I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing.

The lawyer analogy is kinda week I would agree.  A person cannot engineer for themselves without being licensed, so I guess that shows a loophole in the licensure of lawyers.

An engineer without a license only really exists in the exempt world and that is ok.  The drawback is, anyone in the exempt world, engineering degree or not, can be called or call themselves an engineer.  I think that is the point that is always trying to be made and that is why I am for the restricted use of "engineer."

I always ask for licensed people when I use a service that requires a license.  I just can't imagine going to a doctor that has no license....or even a car dealer or real estate broker for that matter.

Bob

RE: Engineering w/o school

Quote:


If you do not obtain the proper license, you will be a sweat shop worker hired by a firm that is going to pay you substandard wages for illegally working without a license.

You need also a license to cut someones hair?

And still complaining about bussiness going off-shore?

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

RE: Engineering w/o school

I think you are geeting confussed about certification vs. licensure. You may need a "license" to cut hair, but it is really "certification" ( I wouldn't want to get my hair cut my some one unqualified, but it probably won't kill me). On the other hand, you certainly need a business license to open a barber shop.

RE: Engineering w/o school

The issue of lawyers being licensed is simple: if you hire a non-lawyer person (perhaps a legal technician), that is not allowed. That would cause a drastic drop in lawyer revenues. If you represent yourself, that is allowed because 1) It won't be a danger to the public 2) The opposing lawyer will rip you to shreds, much to the amusement of the Judge.

RE: Engineering w/o school

BobPE...thanks for clarifying my point way back there somewhere.

Melone....That was not a "holier than thou" diatribe on my part.  BobPE explained it better than I.  We see examples routinely of those who practice certain professions without a license.  Interestingly enough, the licensing laws usually only address those who are licensed, though some statutes have enough teeth to bite the unlicensed.  The difference is that if a licensed person screws up, he can be held criminally and civilly liable....if an unlicensed person designs something and screws it up, he can often only be chased in civil action.  That threat alone usually gets you a better design from the licensed individual.  As for ethics, I have not seen a code of ethics for the unlicensed engineers, but I have seen and have even read the two that apply to my practice.  Interestingly enough, our code of ethics is woven into some of the licensing statutes such that if you violate the code of ethics, you violate the law.....sorry, but that is not equity with the "ethics" of unlicensed practice and I hope it never is.

Don't misunderstand me....I do not believe that a code of ethics guarantees ethical practice.  I do believe that the combination of a clear code of ethics and statutory requirements serves to protect the public better than not having such.

RE: Engineering w/o school

I'm all with ewh on this one.. There are few metallurgical PE's. I definately see the value in the PE system and would consider it except that I will likely never work with or under one. I also agree that the 6.5years I spent busting my A** to get my ABET accredited BS and MS should be recognized by the title of Metallurgical Engineer. There are lots of people in industry who dont have ABET engineering degrees that get to be called engineers. (And I'm not reffering to the janitor, secretary, or Millwrights... its when engineer is used as a run of the mill title to refer to a Technician that bugs me.)

My degree required that I study a whole lot more than just metallurgy. I also had to take two controls classes, a DSP class, several me/em classes, 15different classes dealing with thermodynamics (ok those really do apply to metallurgy), econ, Lit/English, several seminars on public presentation, and four phys ed classes. I use the information from my education in any way possible to do my job.

Yes the over use of the title Engineer reduces its value. This in no way applies to those who get to put PE after their name, that is the next level above us lazy run of the mill educated but not licenced engineers.

Nick
I love materials science!

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources