aluminum spindles
aluminum spindles
(OP)
i know applications such as honda use cast steel or iron spindles but does anyone make aluminum spindles and how feasible is it for a race application?
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RE: aluminum spindles
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
www.mpdracing.com/spring_hubs.php-8k
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
www.mpdracing.com/ and look under sprint products.
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
Norm
RE: aluminum spindles
On lightweight racecars, the aluminum or titanium spindles with a Mg hub should be a good way of reducng unsprung weight---albeit, a really high dollar item. I still think its a rather costly alternative to steel in most classes.
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
A spindle is subject to bending stress, fatique, and it should not deflect too much. Aluminum is at a disadvantage in all of these. There is no definite fatique strength like there is with steel, and it has 1/3 the stiffness.
Weight should not be that big a factor if we are talking only about the spindle. The bulk of the weight is in the housing, control arms, and brake parts.
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
jlwoodward. Um, I don't think you realise how much weight we are talking about. A tall spindle on a full size car or truck will weigh upwards of 12 kg, so a 30% weight saving (times 4) starts to look very attractive.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
If a spindle also has a driveshaft then we call it a knuckle.
A hub (these days) is the actual bit that holds the wheel bearings, typically bought in as an assembly.
eg Gen 2 or Gen 3 or Gen 4 parts in http:/
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Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
That cleared up few things in my mind re terminology.
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eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
I don't see much point in being alarmist about the fatigue properties of aluminium, real engineers have been successfully using it in high cycle fatigue environments for a long time. If you can get away from welds I can see no reason not to use it, if designed properly.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
Carbon fiber? I just read an article in a science magazine about the tails comming off a certain aircraft, that are made of carbon fiber. So maybe it isn't as great as all think it is. Better stick with good ole chrome moly for that application.
RE: aluminum spindles
Motorsports is a contest measured in hundredths of seconds or less. A 15% reduction in weight? Well I would think that IS significant. Most professional teams, especially F-1, would positively KILL, and invest millions, for a 1% advantage!
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
Is carbon fiber becoming the answer to most strength/wieght issues?
I hope you guys will continue to respond to this thread.
RE: aluminum spindles
Not for mass production (cost), and not for small budgets (too hard to design and make). I think a spindle would be one of the worst things to make from CF, as it combines high loads, restricted packaging, and a lot of hardpoints in a small area. It can be done, obviously. Having gone to all that trouble you've saved maybe another 2 kg ie 0.5 kg per corner) on a short spindle car. There are much better weight saving opportunities on most cars.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles
HAVING SAID THAT, I do agree with Greg, specifically for the following reasons:-
It has VERY LOW ELONGATION AT BREAK, hence the design is extremely critical of even distribution of stress.
Packaging restrictions can force stress concentration areas into the design.
The resin that binds the fibres is degraded by heat, the extent of the degradation depends on the particular resin.
The properties are VERY DEPENDANT ON FIBRE ORIENTATION.
Properties quoted for a single fibre cannot be extrapolated into a composite structure, as the load is never shared equally with all the fibres in the cross section of the composite. Also the resin matrix plays a part in the properties of the composite.
Often data sheets quote the properties of a single fibre, not the properties of a composite.
Even data sheets quoting data for composites use data from a perfectly oriented sample, made under ideal conditions and with a test piece designed to optimise the properties. This is rarely if ever achieved in the real world, and many designs and processes fall far short of data sheet properties.
My recommendations.
Use good steel, remove as much excess from the design as possible, then use it to your hearts content.
Use aluminium, save some weight, but check it regularly for cracks.
If you have an F1 level of budget, experiment with carbon fibre prototypes, but expect breakages until, when and if you sort it out. Do extensive testing where neither life nor limb are threatened by a failure.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: aluminum spindles
Greg, based on Norm Peterson's post above...I looked at the photo and article...not practical IMO but then there are plenty of impractical solutions to auto design problems that sell rather well on the open market. Racing tends to weed out those solutions in short order. Alternative material for critical components must, above all, work safely---cost is often secondary. In amature racing I see mostly steel, forgings or fabrications. This is not to say that amatures do not use Al or Ti spindles, just that I have not personally seen them in common use.
Composites are great. Carbon fibre body parts for my race cars would be wonderfull for much needed weight savings (I have grown rather large in my old age)---NOT on my racing budget, anyway.
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
K. Raikkonen was leading when he flat spotted a tire that caused a severe vibration in the right front suspension. The vibration resulted in a a very dramatic failure of the CF suspension. If you were watching closely the initiation of the failure was vividly demonstrated by a flash as one of the upper suspension arms failed.
I have seen this particular failure mode several times early on during the development of CF especially in high speed flywheels as they disintegrated with explosive force.
RE: aluminum spindles
I also noted that my estimate of cost for a F-1 season was a bit low...$400,000,000 and UP seems to be the current fugure!!! Sheesh :-(
I watched the Indy and the Nurburg race and I found the F-1 still rather boring (a parade punctuated by brief "events") from a television point of view but the coverage was totally superior to the ABC (Absolutely Boring Coverage) broadcast of Indy. I have been to both types of open wheeled racing and, in person (I "worked" Long Beach GP T-1 drivers right at the last F-1 race there in the 80's), F-1 racing is rather more exciting. I also find NASCAR oval stuff totally boring, but the road racing is super!
I am NOT much of a spectator in motor sports.
Rod
RE: aluminum spindles
GM is using them in late-model midsize fwd cars...(USA, anyhow)
Of course, being fwd, there is no 'carrot' to support the bearings, and the loads are applied to the heart of the piece.
I found out when doing a brake job on my '03 Buick Regal. Used a file on a parting line, just to meke sure it wasn't just a shiny coating. -Nope- it's Al!
cheers
Jay
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: aluminum spindles
RE: aluminum spindles
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: aluminum spindles