E85 Fuel
E85 Fuel
(OP)
Can you run the new E-85 100+ octane fuel in older cars? Can you mix with premiun unleaded for more horse power? Would you need to jet up the carb?
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RE: E85 Fuel
The 15% gasoline is included in the blend for a number of reasons, among them making the fuel unappealing to drink, making its flame visible as a safety feature, and enhancing evaporative properties at low temperatures, i.e. for cold starting performance.
RE: E85 Fuel
Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
Emissions of CO2 are down 70-80 % with E85 and fuel consumption are up by 35 %.
Soon SAAB will be on the market with a flexifuel car. Acording to SAAB, max power on E85 = 180 HP and on gas only 150 HP. E85= (RON)104
Benefits for driving flexifuel are less tax and free parking.
RE: E85 Fuel
Fuel consumption increases, but CO2 emissions drop? 70-80%? By burning partially preburned hydrocarbons? I don't think so.
Irritatingly the only emissions info I can find is in Swedish
http://www.fordbilar.com/etanolbilar.htm
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: E85 Fuel
Is CO2 really an issue anyway, environmentally? -- well, that's another debate.
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
Make sure you use an injector that is made of materials suitable for E85.
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
The all-ethanol IC engines have a higher compression ratio than petrol engines, viz. 10.5-12:1 vs 10:1 max., respectively, which somewhat offsets the higher consumption of ethanol for equal power output. Other side benefits include more output power at max. revs and peak torque developed at lower revs.
The carburettors were nickel-plated to withstand ethanol fuel, and the fuel pump, lines and tank are made of a more resistant material. A 1/2-gallon petrol cannister + delivery pump was on tap for temporary connection (automatic) to the carburettor for cold-start on cold days.
As EFI hit the market, some manufacturers released ethanol EFI engines, but am not sure if the relevant components like injector pump, injectors etc. are SS.
Since the last 12 months, a host of manufacturers have released EFI FLEX-FUEL engines that allow the user to alter the petrol/alcohol mix AT WILL, depending on consumer preferences of relative fuel price, availability etc.
Ethanol is cheapest - and dirt cheap - in regions which concentrate on ethanol production.
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
All parts are vehicle specific:
Fuel tank;
Fuel pump;
All fuel lines;
Fuel injectors;
Computer reflash to E-85 specs;
Unique sensors;
EPA emission certification for the package which doesnt exist;
and this is only for E-85 fuel.
Cost? I would expect about $3000 to $5000USD, parts only, another $1,000 labor.
Retrofits will never happen, entirely not feasible.
I was asked about 3 years ago to explore the market for retrofits, I was told it had to be below $1000 USD to even come close to attracting the customers interest. Toss in that the fuel may cost more, obtain about 60% of the milage, and have durability problems with corrosion (no arguments please, it happens), and there is no market.
Franz
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RE: E85 Fuel
Depends upon whose big brother is behind it.
rmw
RE: E85 Fuel
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RE: E85 Fuel
Now, after years of using unleaded, I don't drive down the road worrying about whether my exhaust valves are going to survive or not, although I do still deal with more pinging than I would like to have to. And, I miss the raw power that some of my old leaded gas engines had.
My point was that the paradygm of the industry at the moment the debate was raging was from the point of view of having (needing) the lead, and how it (the thinking) changed when the political climate dictated that the change was going to have to occur.
In todays political and global economic climate, a similar metamorphasis can and just might occur. It certainly did for Brazil as Paulista noted above.
As the old warden said in Cool Hand Luke, " Luke, you just have to get your mind right". Sometimes political and economic realities do that for us whether we want it or not. It looks like ethanol is coming on just like unleaded gas did. Some technical merit, lots of political (including environmental) combined with economic pressure.
rmw
RE: E85 Fuel
Your concerns are all real, I remember very well all the rhetoric in the mid 1970's, but what we got out of all of that mess was a nice running, clean, efficient vehicle. The performance and engine life of todays vehicle is unsurpassed. Just this morning, I was reading about the new '06 Mustang, being the most powerful Ford has ever offered, all that and meeting EPA too.
The issues with valve recession was real and happened plenty, but only for a couple of years. The knock and lower compression problems were solved with EGR and better design cam specs, plus decently designed pistons and combustion chambers.
As for "gootot" questions, retrofitting a modern era non-E85 vehicle for E-85 use is not feasible.
Brazil's autos are fuel specific, manufactured that way. The few years they retrofitted vehicles were dismal failures, even the government picked up the tab on many of them. Early in my career I fielded such a question from an engineer in Brazil, he told me that they had no choice but switch. They spent more on retrofitting vehicles, paying for the change over, engineering additional applications, and working out the fuel storage issues than they have saved using Ethanol.
Now, on the positive side:
Ethanol is a great fuel, E-85 works well. The 15% gasoline helps with cold weather ignition and gives the flame color when burning outside the engine. E-85 has not shown to have any significant valve wear problem, if the engine is run normally, but if the engine is not used regularly, there are some corrosion issues in the intake manifold, or in other areas where aluminum or magnesium, or pot metal is exposed to ethanol.
I drove several of the research vehicles, they perform well with plenty of power, but at the 30% fuel milage penalty.
Not contesting the use of Ethanol or E-85, but the option of making a user acceptable retrofit system has too many negatives to offset the positive attributes. Remember, I am only referring to the post by "gootot", not the original thread.
Franz
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RE: E85 Fuel
I think what you and I are both driving at in response to Steve383's question is that there is a right way and a wrong way to do this, especially if it comes to a point that it has to be done (whether political, economic, or otherwise.)
Similar discussion could be had with the R-12 to R-134 changeover machinations of a few years ago. With the age of some of my vehicles, I am still in the middle of all that. I refuse to convert some of my older vehicles. I hoarded enough of the old stuff to get by for some time.
I was also one that thought Diesel was cool technology and got caught up in the GM 5.7L conversion engine and the earlier Ford 6.9's. Helped contribute to the 'learning curve' of the times regarding that technology. Wouldn't trade my Power Strokes for those old engines ever.
I was one of those that got caught up in the leaded vs unleaded rhetoric, and thought that life was over when lead was taken out of the fuel. Now I wouldn't go back for any reason. Maybe it will be the same with ethanol for some.
Your points are excellent and well taken. If someone thinks that they are going to get from here to there by converting an existing gasoline fueled auto, I think they are going to be in for big problems and big disappointments as you so well point out.
I hope they listen to you. If they don't they will be the ones giving the concept a black eye.
The more I hear about it, (E-85) the more I like it, but I will not be one caught up in trying to convert an existing system.
rmw
RE: E85 Fuel
http:
We may be answering some of the questions above sooner rather than later.
rmw
RE: E85 Fuel
Another way of looking at it is that the Europeans are paying around $7 per gallon, and do seem to buy smaller cars. So, given that it costs about a dollar a gallon to refine and distribute, that says at $300 per barrel things might happen in the states.
Even then, financing the SUV will still cost far more than driving it.
So, who's predicting $200-300 oil without a major intervention of some sort?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: E85 Fuel
In the UK we currently have people jumping onto the CNG bandwagon because it's a lot cheaper than gasoline and diesel to the consumer, through lower tax rates. If we all switched to CNG, I wonder how long our goverment would continue to take a bath?
Likewise ethanol. Convert the whole country to ethanol and we'll suddenly have an ethanol tax to fill the hole left behind. Taxes have to come from somewhere - I just wonder what the excuse will be when the tax goes up?
RE: E85 Fuel
To the best of my knowledge, no other country has undertaken a similar initiative, at least on the same scale as Brazil´s.
In ethanol-producing regions of Brazil, this alternative fuel is available at 40-50 % of the price of petrol. In the big cities, the price reduction is of the order of 30-35 %.
No wonder the car manufacturers in Brazil are now busily turning out FlexFuel versions and these models are outselling the petrol-only models.
Obviously, any country can do it if land, water, labour - and principally, sunshine - abound.
And there are umpteen lessons to be learned from the Brazilian experience, right across the spectrum.
RE: E85 Fuel
There seem to be more and more flexifuel cars around here in Sweden, I'll try to test drive one soon. LPG isn't used much here as a vehicle fuel so isn't taxed as such. I know a few people who fill up at work from their industrial LPG tank and drive for almost nothing. They just have to take out the LPG tank in the boot/trunk one a year for car testing.
cheers, derek
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RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
The idea behind CO2 reduction is based on the natural cycle of CO2. CO2 is first absorbed by the sugar cane (or other crops), then transformed to ethanol (and yes, released back to the atmosphere by the fermentation). The ethanol is burnt in the engines and released as CO2 (and H2O) back to the atmosphere.
So the CO2 balance would be zero.
However, other fuels are employed during the entire process: normally the trucks used to bring sugar cane to the ethanol plant, the trucks used to deliver ethanol to the distribution centers, and to deliver ethanol to the gas station are all Diesel fueled. The use of Diesel oil is what makes the CO2 balance non-zero.
By the way, sugar cane bagasse is also used as fuel in the
ethanol plant to generate steam and power (with a surplus of power as compared to the own consumption of the plant). So, if you compute the decrease of fuel consumption in conventional power plants, you may find even a negative balance of CO2 (I never checked it, however).
So, don't worry with the CO2 bubbles and enjoy a cold beer!
regards
fvincent
RE: E85 Fuel
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
Here in the US, Ethanol primarily comes from corn, but sugar cane and beets can also be used. I have a difficult time thinking that the corn production can be scaled up to replace a simple 10% of the total US petroleum usage by Ethanol. Someone with more brains than me needs to do some agriculture calculations and cross with the US petroleum production.
Franz
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RE: E85 Fuel
how will that change as demand for petroleum escalates and supplies dwindle. I don't know, but I do wonder.
When petrol and diesel hits 20 or 30 bucks a gallon, usage will drop and currently expensive alternatives will seem cheap and will also be priced according to supply and demand until the demand drops back to balance reasonable supply capacity. One thing for sure, there is potential to increase renewable supplies, but no potential to produce more oil. There is a potential to find new reserves, and to exploit previously uneconomical reserves, but I think, that to will decline in the reasonably distant, but foreseeable future.
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
As our newspapers have ben currently reporting, Brazil is all to happy with your E85 program, as it may herald the day when we may eventually supply the US with ethanol, as we now do China, Russia and India !
Could it just be that vesyed interests are not too happy over any such future development eating into their revenues and wresting away some of their political clout ?
It does make sense when you say that to address a mere 10 % substitution of current petrol consumption with ethanol would be a formidable task for the US. But again, your oil consumption per capita is huge, at least twice that of Western Europe, as is also your per capita contribution in heating of mother-earth (Kyoto etc.).
We had a tough time prior to entering your beef market, but we eventually did, despite strict sanitary regulations etc. China and Russia are already on our beef-export list.
And we are currently runner-up to the world´s largest producer (??)of soya beans.
We are blessed with vast resources of water, land and year-round sunshine. It could definitely be our Mecca in the forseeable future. In fact, there are American farmers investing in soya production in our ever-expanding agricultural frontiers.
RE: E85 Fuel
I forgot to add the oil use to produce and transport fertilizers, oil to transport workers, oil and coal to produce steel to erect the ethanol plant and so on...
Clean fuel is never aboslutely clean...
patprimmer,
As to the use of ethanol in tractors and trucks, it is technically possible, but diesel engines are still the best choice, I guess, for such purpose (heavy duty applications)
Paulista,
US production of ethanol is almost the same of Brazil. Lots of cars run already on ethanol, too. The advantage of Brazil is the lower production cost due to the higher avarage insolation along the year and to the use of sugar cane instead of corn as raw material.
regards
fvincent
RE: E85 Fuel
That a small percentage of ethanol has been added to petrol for sometime now in the Midwest States is old hat.
But E85 fuel is a new development and a promising idea.
If the whole thing can be boiled down to more (or less) insolation between producwer countries I do not know.
What is said routinely is that our levels of insolation plus other factors make us hard to beat in soya production, enabling multiple harvests of crops while the US has only one.
One by-product of our cane-sugar-derived ethanol is a copious supply of effluent (vinhoto, at 7:1 ratio) which was previously discharged into streams and rivers, creating an environmental problem of devastating proportions, but which has in the last few years been redirected for production of fertiliser.
The leftover crushed cane-sugar (bagaço) is combustible and enables the ethanol producer to be self-sufficient in energy, plus pump something into the electrical grid if the tariff makes it worthwhile. Bagaço may also be hydrolysed in kilns, thereby breaking down the fibres and making it suitable for animal feed (principally ruminants).
RE: E85 Fuel
Actually I am quite aware of all that... I am paulista, too!
regards
fvincent
RE: E85 Fuel
There is neither engineering nor economic justification for using it, but if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy - as if you were actually doing something useful - then by all means go ahead and put it in your tank!
RE: E85 Fuel
During my time at university, the more astute eng students were aware that unlike physicists, mathematicians etc., most engineers have a tunnel vision of the world and life.
Either black or white......with us , or against us !
RE: E85 Fuel
Someone else can figure out what acreage would support 10% of the US switching to E85.
cheers, derek
Rob, I like you idea of pretending that politics doesn't exist-- a bit like the tooth fairy, and santa, and Saddam (oops, sorry that last one was real.)
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RE: E85 Fuel
Then again if anyone else has read Lomberg's against-the-flow book "The skeptical environmentalist", they'd already know that the middle east could power the world through massive photovoltaic cell deployment.
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
Franz
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RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
I cleaned the tank and treated it and the lines with phosphoric acid type rust converter. After a thorough clean out and a very large fuel filter being fitted the car ran fine on straight 100 octane avgas.
If your Toyota is not showing problems, it might have some protective coating on the tank and lines. How long these will protect for is anyones guess.
How are you correcting your A:F ratio at full throttle when the computer is open loop.
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
Fit bigger injectors. The computer won't know they are bigger.
Regards
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RE: E85 Fuel
So far I'm at a zero cost ethanol conversion, rather than fitting bigger injectors I'm wondering if there is another less costly solution (like manually adjusting the mass flow meter to trick the computer into thinking less fuel is going to the cylinders). Were you answering "yes" to the question about potentially damaging my engine by running lean on startup? If i'm not running a load (i.e. I warm up at idle and don't drive till the engine is operating in closed loop), will lean running on startup hurt my engine over the long run? Thanks for the clarification.
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
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RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
Enjoy,
rmw
http://w
RE: E85 Fuel
What 'typical' flurocarbon materials are you referring to? I haven't seen data to indicate that the swelling is that much in any materials I know of that are used in fuel systems. Could you expound further? Do you have any references to studies done on this? And what was the reasoning behind the chromium alloys? Was this to prevent possible electrolytic corrosion due to water in the fuel? What era of VW was this?
thanks,
This is a general reply:
Btw, I did a smog test on my ole' 1990 supra on E98, came out with alot of unburnt hydrocarbons on startup when cold (combination of missing and poor vaporization of fuel i suspect). It passed all tests on the so-called 'fast pass' meaning in the 1st 15 seconds at 15mph (50% load) and 25mph (25% load) it passed all the emissions tests (for NOx, CO, and Hydrocarbons, 02 and C02 were also measured). CO was imperceptible (0.00%), and NOx were middle of the passing range (416ppm), HCs were close to allowed max (100ppm). I was told this is typical in the first 15seconds of the test, and that since it was clean enough to pass in the first 15 seconds it must be quite clean overall, because if given more time at each state these numbers would almost certainly decrease. Apparently the way the equipment is set up if it doesn't pass at 15 seconds it checks again at 45 and 75seconds and at each successive time you should see cleaner results.
RE: E85 Fuel
Another simple way to recalibrate a EFI car on e85 is boost the fuel pressure. 10% seems to do it. (45psi to 50psi on a 95 saturn). This does make the fuel pump work harder, but has not seemed to cause any problems so far for us. Also, I have had no problems on a 89 camaro (TBI 5.0l) and 93 Honda Civic running at 50%-60% ethanol other than running rough for a few seconds in the winter (in Minnesota). Using 100% E85 has given a check engine light when running full throttle, and then it runs rough (running open loop) until the ignition is turned off and on, and the Camaro has had at least 30% ethanol for around 6 years now (I originally mixed e85 with regular unleaded for octane boosting, at that time it cost the same. No problems, in fact the injectors work better now than when I bought the car. (they used to get stuck when the car sat for over 3-4 days. 180,000 miles so far, original fuel pump, lines, fuel tank, and injectors.)
As far as I have been able to tell, you can put in 20% ethanol without rejetting a carb, 20-30% tends to run a bit lean, above that you should rejet it. One of these days I'm going to test exact amounts of extra fuel flow needed, since I have not been able to find out how much is needed for ethanol. (Methanol is around 100% more fuel, back 25 years ago when I used that for racing)
Our fuel milage is no worse than 5% worse if I'm not driving. (car is faster, and I tend to rev it up more w/ we run e85 in it; I should go back to regular gas for a few tankfuls on the wife's Saturn and see how much worse my milage is than hers to get more data points for comparison)
and I do not work for (or have investments that I know of) in anything related to Ethanol production or related industries, I just hate being dependant on OPEC. SMR
RE: E85 Fuel
RE: E85 Fuel
I've been running E85 in a 2002 Subaru WRX for almost 2 years now with no problems of any kind. I started out at moderate levels and discovered the stock ECU would run out of fuel trim authority at about 33% E85 in the tank and throw a CEL for "too lean". In spite of the CEL the car ran great (actually better performance than with 100 octane unleaded race gas )
I swapped in over sized injectors ( went from 420 cc/min to 550 cc/min ) and could run 100% E85 with no CEL's or problems of any kind due to the E85. For cold start improvement in very cold weather (< 20 deg F) I simply added 2 gallons of extra gasoline to the tank.
I just did a tally and so far I have run in excess of 500 gallons of E85 through the car, I am at 52,000 miles (about 9,000+ on the E85 blends, and have seen no fuel system compatibility issues at all.
Stock fuel lines are mild steel ( magnetic test ) injectors are OEM 550 cc/min STi injectors for the Japanese 2.0 L Sti's, fuel pump is a Walbro 255 L/hr after market high flow pump, and I recently bumped the static fuel pressure from 43psi to 50 psi to give me a bit more headroom, using the old DSM hotrodder trick of crushing the OEM fuel pressure regulator top to increase the static pressure.
Turbocharged engines LOVE this fuel and I get about 92% of my gasoline fuel milage on the E85.
Full write up on the experiment is at:
http:
Larry