Difficult situation need advice
Difficult situation need advice
(OP)
I am an engineer in an equipment repair shop. I work with older men who as they put it 'they have dirt in their toolboxes older than me'. I have only been in an engineering position for a year. I have endured harrassment for the year. The job was worth while because the ops manager, who was the engineer previously, and I had a great working relationship and he had much to teach me. He has been promoted to a different facility. I am currently trying to be the shop engineer and cover his prior duties.
A key part of my job is to make decisions based on information I receive from the guys on the floor. The problem is that they lie. So as a new engineer I can never be sure that I am making the right choices. I have to cross-examine them to be sure the information I am receiving is what they have actually done. This is a long standing situation. My prior boss had the same problem but his experience was his guide. I feel that I am not qualified for the job as it is and having to conduct the third degree is not helping. Since I am doing two jobs I don't have time to perform through interrogations.
I am considering leaving but the thought of quitting is hard for me to handle. I do not see a solution in my current situation. Please advise
A key part of my job is to make decisions based on information I receive from the guys on the floor. The problem is that they lie. So as a new engineer I can never be sure that I am making the right choices. I have to cross-examine them to be sure the information I am receiving is what they have actually done. This is a long standing situation. My prior boss had the same problem but his experience was his guide. I feel that I am not qualified for the job as it is and having to conduct the third degree is not helping. Since I am doing two jobs I don't have time to perform through interrogations.
I am considering leaving but the thought of quitting is hard for me to handle. I do not see a solution in my current situation. Please advise





RE: Difficult situation need advice
We used to see this in the workshops all the time, make no bones about it, both harrassment and lying are unacceptable behaviour. It sounds like both have been tolerated for a while, which makes getting rid of them much harder.
If you have strong character you may be able to handle this by yourself, but, that's a big ask. This is what your management and HR department is for. Don't whine, document your case and give it to them to sort out.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
One of the engineers dilemmas, how to work with management and the guys on the floor at the same time in peace and harmony?
What worked for me, was for the guys on the floor to come to know firsthand that I care. I care about them, their safety, my safety, their family, my family, the equipment, it’s maintenance, the work processes, the control systems, the work rules, the union contract, and management. How’d I do that? Hard work! The first day in my process unit I put on a pair of coveralls and tagged along with the operators. I found out what bothered them or kept them from doing more or a better job. There’s a good chance this problem will be on the to-do list management gave you anyway. When that item broke or happened, I asked them to show me what they do. The next time, when the job got to the critical point I asked them to let me turn the wrenches. And, this was in a plant with a very strong union. It can be done, as long you are genuinely trying to solve a problem and following the rules. Oh yeah, you have to know the rules and ask them how can you go about helping them solve the problem without getting a grievance against you. A lot of this boils down to good old one-on-one open communication with the HR person, the guy on the floor, the shop steward, and the union president. I made it a point to meet all of them, get to know them, and talk with them about what I planned. That way, there’s no surprises, and you’ll be amazed at the help everyone gives you.
This works with most people, but not all. My experience is over 80% of people are basically good, 1-2% are just pure evil, and the rest are in the “lunatic fringe” and they will follow whoever they are around. So, if you have to work with one of the 1-2%? I treated them the same way, until they stepped over the line, then I told them in very plain language that was not acceptable. The second time it happened, I repeated the message to them and went to their boss and my boss. Each time, escalate it further. And this was mentioned by GregLocock and is very important, after every event document what happened and get guidance (your boss and HR) on what to do with the documentation. Be careful when you do this, but don’t back down, or this person will think they own you. My experience is when you make this kind of person follow the rules, just about everybody in the whole damn shop will cheer you on, because they have to pull this clowns weight day after day.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Good luck.
Brian
www.mcabeeconstruction.com
Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Hg
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I have several industrial clients and I have several women engineers engaged with those clients and I mentored them all the same way and they have has many of the same struggles with the floor and operations staff as you describe. All my engineers went from really bad first impressions to greatly defended assets to my clients.
I would hope that it is not because you are a woman, if that is the case, then engage them directly with your throughts and demand from them a level playing field with regard to their respect as a place for you all to start from.
Let us know how you make out....
BobPE
RE: Difficult situation need advice
You might stir the pot by calling someone in higer management and asking their advise about an attorney. If they ask why, tell them.
If these people were comming into your house and stealing things would you be pissed? would you call the law? If they were out in the parking lot breaking the windows of your car would you stand for that? They are in fact stealing from you livelyhood, your ability to earn money and grow professionally. If you have kids are you going to tell them 20 years from now " I can't send you to college because some men stole your money 20 years ago".
So do your job, take notes, if the company can make it better sue the bastards?
RE: Difficult situation need advice
If your crew is like the ones that my wife (ChE) and I were handed when we were young and fresh out of school, the only times of peace will be when THEY need YOUR cooperation. That is, unless you can bow your neck and somehow get their confidence.
I've seen some really good responses above. Good advice all around, I don't have anything better to add. My eventual success came from 1) picking the worst of the bad apples and documenting him on out the door, and 2) being as fair as I could possibly be, even inviting them all over for a cookout (good eggs and bad).
I just wanted to pitch in my support and let you know that it can work out.
Best to ya,
Old Dave
RE: Difficult situation need advice
What kind of harrassment are we talking?
I like this part of BJC's post: "If your thinking of leaving anyway, get very aggressive. Demand what you need to do your job. You ain't there to be loved."
If they lie to you, confront them about it. Tell them they're wasting your time with bullshit--and do use that word. Tell them not to do it again. If you think it would do any good, explain what would have gone wrong had you used their bad info.
They're going after areas of perceived weakness--youth, femininity, inexperience. Time to get tough.
But at the same time, there's a balancing act between establishing authority and the positive effect of being one of the guys. Joke with them if you can, and let them joke with you. If they manage to offend you on a social level, never let them see it.
Do you have a personal network of female engineers? Sometimes it's helpful to be able to vent about this stuff in an environment where you don't have to be so anonymous & careful with details. Check to see if your local SWE chapter has an email list or gatherings, though they do seem to be more student-oriented.
Hg
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I can handle the harassment. I can do what needs to be done to get the job done. I have spent all night at customer sites working along side the guys to get problems resolved and then to return to the shop to stay into the wee hours to get other critical work out the door. I have worked on night shift putting in seals because we were short people. I have tried to get inside their heads to understand them.
I cannot deal with the lying because it interferes with work. I do not have the experience to decifer what they are saying. Now they get upset when they realize that I know they are lying and I am trying to ferret out the truth. They are offended that I suspect that they are not the gods of the industry they see themselves.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Hg
RE: Difficult situation need advice
At first it sounded like you were getting a hard time for being a girl in charge of dudes. Lying however suggests they're just pricks. Don't take it from them. It looks like you have a lot of good advice so you don't need a small novel from me lol. Stand up for yourself. When they see that you can command and deserve the respect you are wanting you just might get it. Other times you just have to beat on ego's with your brain-fist until they crumble. There may be just one or two making the problem. It's not "cool" to do the right thing so one arse can lead many lemmings, over a cliff if need be. Lol, though gods of the industry they aren't, don't forget that they probably still know a lot more about their job than you do. Good luck with that
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I had the pleasure of working with one of the staunches unions in the country. My strength was my knowledge and experience of the industry. I managed the trades, production, and kept management hopping.
In clear concise language, I issued my expectations, respected those that demonstrated ability, and hunted down those that weren't interested in performance. I can't see it any other way.
If you don't have the backbone, both of knowledge and of character, remove yourself from the arena. You will be demoralized and stripped of dignity.
There's one possibility. Do you have a floor manager/supervisor who you have seen, or know for sure, has taken an employee in for reprimand, has called in the shop stewarts and local reps to be witness to the 'reprimand'? If you don't have someone like that on board to back you up, I suggest you sign up for non floor activity.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I think the best approach to the perceived lying is tell the person you suspect, "Show me what you are talking about". Keep digging into the facts until it's obvious to him and you what the truth is.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I really sympathize with you because its bad enough being a flunky on equal footing with the pricks; its so much worse if you've been placed over them prematurely and without any support :( Old dogs just don't want to learn from new tricks, is how they see it
Good advice here, so I won't chime on, except to add that you document all the incidents of lying and what truths you uncovered. Glad to hear they pulled this crap on your old boss as well (as UcfSC says, that proves they're just pricks in general) and glad you've got your spade. The only reason this is a problem is because you're green: You sound like you've got the makings of an excellent manager and if you had the experience you need, you could clean the place up without anyone thinking "oh she's just got her panties in a wad." That said, as difficult as it is for you, this is a trial by fire that will serve you well in the long run. I wouldn't worry much about earning these guys' respect - if they were pulling this crap on your old boss, then chances are they don't respect anybody. You'll get respect from other people and from yourself.
Keep copies of your documents where they can't be found or destroyed. My documenting diary is at home; I scribble notes during the day so I won't forget the events and stuff 'em in my pocket, then write 'em out in my journal at home. When/if you do decide to leave this job, you can present your documentation at your exit interview, as your reasons for leaving. Let them deal with the can of worms and go find yourself a less stressful job. Make no mistake, emotional stress is as toll-taking as physical stress. You have your health to take care of and your career to think of. If the best experience opportunities of this job have dried up and all that's left is stress, then it is indeed time to move on and more power to you.
Let us know how it goes :) I think all of us, male or female, have run into at least one of these sorts of guys when we were greenhorns, so we can all sympathize with it. The challenge will be remembering it when we're 55 and not doing the same thing to our new young greenhorns ^_~
-- GeneratorGrrl
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I didn't get anywhere and this problem went as high as the MD (small company) who said he wasn't even going to try as he knew they wouldn't listen to him!
In the end we just waited for the "obstruction" to retire.
"Man management" is a must have skill that you need to acquire. You may wonder why you need it since these people ought to do what they are supposed to do without all the manipulation, but that's life.
Of course, having acquired the skills you won't find it 100% effective; you will always find that some people can be managed and some can't, no matter what.
Sometimes you do just have to wait for them to retire (or get hit by a bus) as they are often just too savvy to be dismissed by any legitimate procedure (especially in a region with strict employment laws).
A useful "nuisance index" is to see how many bosses they've had over the years, some of them have been shuffled around a bit and Company restructures (e.g. changes in management responsibilities) are a good time to change the reporting structure without changing the job descriptions for these types. Many a boss has made the problem people someone else's responsibility.
One ploy used by a company I worked at was to offer one of these problem people a new job, seemingly much better and at a much increased salary.
Of course, they instituted a trial period and effectively got around the employment law so they could drop the axe before the trial period was up.
This was a great wheeze by management (not normally known for lateral thinking) and it would have been better if they hadn't gotten their timing messed up and ended up with a wrongfull dismissal case, but the idea was right, it just needed management/HR to improve their attention span.
These problems can occur at all levels in the company; with the more senior types the accepted way to get rid of them is to promote them out of there! (how do you think so many lame brains got such senior positions?).
Hell of a way to run a business, but there you are.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Guys like these paint themselves a loophole: Because they have strict set-in-stone ideas of how people should behave, you can use that and they can fall into their own traps. I can't just ask our old-dogs to do things (much less tell them!), or they'll get in a snit for the rest of the day. But if I make them feel like it was their idea and they're helping a lil' lady out, it all goes smoothly. Drives me up the wall, but when its boiler-teardown day or we're installing a retro-fit, I *need* their cooperation. But I really prefer working with the one younger guy, whom I can just ask straight and he'll do the tasks without his nads getting offended
Something that helps in old-dog management is not to get too strung out by their quirks. Things like cussing and pin-up girls and off-colour jokes. Fortunately, I grew up with a stepfather whose every second word was "f---in'", so that just rolls off my back (people know I'm agitated when *I* start talking like that! ^_~ ) and the pin-up girls in their lockers are their business and usually just swimsuit girls. I handle the naughty jokes by slinging a few back (usually better and funnier than theirs :-B ) I always ask myself "Is it a small detail?" (probably, that's why they're overcompensating... ooooops sorry that was a naughty joke ^.~ ) Anyhow, to me, habitual cussing in conversation and swimsuit girls are small details; calling me names while reaming me out, and trying to touch me up are large details - big difference. I don't sweat the small details and I sledgehammer the large details. If its a medium detail getting larger, out comes the diary and when its large enough, off we go to HR. I like my job and I really don't have many problems here, so it behooved me to learn how to pull the old-dogs' strings in order to get along. Not that I won't rejoice when they retire! ^_^
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Some of the staff were lying or maybe just not telling the whole truth, so I implemented a written report form for defects. They soon realised that their lies/errors/ misrepresentation of facts were being recorded in writing along with their signatures.
We don't use it anymore, but now we don't need it.
Good luck.
If it doesn't get better leave. Nothing worse than dreading going to work.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
geekmaiden,
I have some long-term advice for you (something that really helped me.) You will have to deal with bullying, juvenile behaviour throughout your career, but it will definitely lessen the older and more experienced you are. Technical experience is only part of the game. Learning to be effective in interpersonal relationships is the other, something apparently your 'guys on the floor' lack in a big way.
Handle the problem as much as you can without going to a higher authority, such as asking the liers to show you.
Convince yourself to the very core of your being that you deserve respect.
Expecting respect and dealing with the situation head-on will earn respect. If not from the perpetrators, then from those around them.
In your spare time, I have some suggested reading. OK, I know this is going to sound a little woo-woo, new agey and all, but you will have to trust me.
The books are about personality types, similar to the Briggs-Meyers concept.
The costs listed are from half.com, a good source for cheap books.
The Enneagram:Understanding Yourself and Others in Life by Helen Palmer, $1
The Enneagram in Love and Work by David Daniels and Helen Palmer, $4
The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson, $13.48
Keep us posted and remind me to tell you about the construction superintendant that felt the need to urinate in from of me (at one time on my shoes while I was taling to him) every time I walked onto the site. Gotta run right now.......................
PS: I was a volunteer test candidate at the Enneagram Institute in Palo
Alto and was extensively interviewed by 10 students from all over the world. The decision was unanimous, I'm a counterphobic six.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
A search under "personality types" reveals a range of different typing methods, some of which are more valuable than others. It may help to know what type you are but what you need is some tools to analyse what types others are (you will having difficulty in getting them to submit to such tests) and, more importantly, how to react your type with theirs and achieve the results you want.
Many sites have free trials. I suggest that if this interests you that you try a few of these just to get a balance, who can tell which is more right than another? but I guess I'd be surprised if they contradicted each other. More important, you need tools to help you manage others.
Psychometrics used to be the in-thing for employers, but the last one I was actually asked to take was decades ago. Most employers today seem more interested in finding employees who will work hard for little reward and could care less about personality types.
It may be worth while talking to HR about taking some courses to help you with man management skills.
There are a lot of things they never teach you at college that you discover you need in order to do the job properly. If they post you abroad, you could expect language traing, a new software suite? sure, some product training. Salesmen get sent on sales courses and buyers on buying courses.
Managers get sent on all sorts of courses all the time. Time management is a popular course because companies can see the value of it.
But some companies don't see people as assets, one of the few that can actually increase in value with experience and in whom it is valuable to invest in added training, so investigate your companies attitude to training, they may feel you should "muddle through", "do the best you can" i.e. spout a few platitudes and mark you down as insecure.
I guess much depends on the HR peoples preferences.
Remember, the image you create depends as much on the perceiver as it does on the perceived so softly softly.
PS if you are the worrying type, you might not want to succeed too easily, especially if an experienced boss had these problems before and didn't solve them. It depends on what sort of company you work for. So don't just analyse the obvious problem types; if your boss is secure, he will be comfortable with you solving these problems and even (especially) obtaining training to be able to do so.
Maybe I'm overly cautious here, but more decisions are made on emotions than logic or reason. Don't win the battle and lose the war.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I wouldn't. I took a bunch of the online tests and came up with all different answers.
However, it's not a bad idea to take a look at *all* the "care and feeding of Type XYZ" advice--it's all tools, regardless of whether or not you believe what they say about which tools should apply to who(m).
Hg
RE: Difficult situation need advice
"Handle the problem as much as you can without going to a higher authority, such as asking the liers to show you."
Glad you agree. Just last night I used this on my 11 year old son right before bedtime. It kinda went like this:
Me:Do you have your retainer in your mouth?
Son:Yes.
Me:Show me.
Son(with no retainer):I left it at school.
Me:At this stage, you need to keep your retainer in at all times, except when you eat. Did you brush your teeth?
Son:Yes.
Me:Show me your tooth brush.
Son(with a dry toothbrush):Uh, I forgot.
Me:Please floss and brush now. I want to see if you do it correctly.
Yes, I stood there and watched him. He also lost some privileges for the next two days. I plan to check again tonight.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Sounds like casseopia amd jmw are working on a solution to change your outlook, like it's your fault. Good ideal-if you can't change the world, change yourself (the problem must be with you). IF they were giving that advice to may daughter I'de be all over them like white on rice. We've all got problems and can analyze ourselves for endlessly. I don't think the problem is you, do you?
jwm's ideal for a proceedural base paper system is good. You can use it to analayze job the problems associated with them and improve work practices. If lying is a problem that cost the shop time and money you will be able to show it.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I had the flu when I wrote the post. When I get a fever I become a candy@ss.
My other problem is that I am not emotional. I am too logical. To me there is acceptable behavior and there is unacceptable behavior. What I consider unacceptable behavior is lying. I regret that I can’t trust all of them. I have shown them in past that I understand when they make mistakes and I have worked with them to come up with solutions. My past behavior has shown them there is no need to lie. The guys who have come to me with mistakes have been pleasantly surprised with my responses. I don’t care about blame I only care about solutions and not having that problem again. I do have a few guys that are problems and they have been everyone else’s problems for at least 10 years. I am going to take ownership of them and try to solve it the best way I can. If I make the wrong decision New Guy can fire me. Either way it will be an interesting learning experience.
For books on Personality disorders the book by Beck et al. are great. They are doing research on the subject. They have written Cognitive therapy for Personality Disorders. I have to get there Behavioral therapy for personality disorders.
If you want a light read on the subject “Toxic Coworkers: How to deal with Dysfunctional People on the Job” by Alan Cavaiola
RE: Difficult situation need advice
-- GeneratorGrrl
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
RE: Difficult situation need advice
You say that like it's a bad thing...
Hg
RE: Difficult situation need advice
An extravert engineer looks at your shoes when he/she is talking to you.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
I feel the need to clear some stuff up
geekmaiden:
There is a difference between being emotional and having emotions.
Emotion is NOT within your control, your reaction to it is.
In your second post you say "my behavior has shown them there is no need to lie." You are still equating the shop boys lying with YOUR behavior. My take on this is that you are still looking at the situation through the lens of self-blame. And yes I AM suggesting a change in perspective. Stop blaming yourself for the actions of others.
Is is possible that the shop boys lie out of another motivation, job preservation for one. Is it possible that the lying is so ingrained that they don't even recognize it as lying? A change in perspective may change your interpretation of the actions of the obstructionist and his minions.
I originally intended to suggest a way to engage your obstructionist. Maybe he feels passed over or ignored. Perhaps a meeting (private or group) with the stated goal of asking for 'help develop a way to submit more accurate reports', or 'how do we become the best shop in the company... industry...world.' Or a more direct approach would be to relate your observations about the inaccurate information to the obstructionist in private. Say that you value his thoughts, experience, etc. and ask how he would suggest the two of you work out the differences.
I would suggest that most people will not react cooperatively when aggressively challenged or spoken to in a parental tone. Start with the goal of working out a cooperative solution. If that does not work, increase the level. Document your strategies and the results.
The Enneagram is only one path to self-observation. There are many paths. It is not for analyzing personality disorders. For that I would have suggested Dialectical Behavior Therapy. The Enneagram was developed for normal to high achievers. I would guess that you fall into the high achiever category.
jmw,
You said it best "don't win the battle and lose the war" Put's it in a nutshell. BTW, which website are you talking about? The only one I referenced was half.com. And I never limit myself.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Excellent request. We need data!
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: Difficult situation need advice
You have a great attitude. I wish you would come and work here. Good luck. There is some excellent advice above.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Difficult situation need advice
It should be made clear to every employee your (company's) expectations on performance. If an employee is injuring the 'activity of carrying on business', then you have cause for discipline. Care should be taken however to determine if the obstruction is intentional or of weakness. Some will argue it's the same but the later could be diagnosed as psychotic. The suggestion of taking to task these obstructions is right on. Show me, tell me how, where's the proof. In all cases however you are challenging the qualifications that they(the obstructor) should have in respect to their posting (because anything else is irrelevant and a distraction initiated by yourself).
Care needs to be exercised to the relevancy of the activity. Disrespect is in many cases, the default, and may have developed that way from years of poor floor management (you of course are silent to this possiblity). Teaching people dignity by way of example will garner respect, it just depends on how deep the pool is. Disciplining someone who has been taught disrespect won't be worth the troubles.
Once again though, today is the best time to begin a program of awareness, that the company's policies are serious and that the employees are here for a purpose and that those that do not contribute as required to the 'purpose', will have correct actions invoked. The future of their relationship with the company will then be determined by their responses to this action.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
One case of lying came when the were removing a threaded piece and it got stuck. They came to me for advice. I asked them if there was a piece of pin that maybe holding it up.
Guys "No we removed the entire pin"
Me "You started backing the piece off and then it jammed?"
G "Yes"
M "You removed both pins?"
G "Yes, here are the pins."
M "Where is the piece that is missing on the bottom?"
G "It fell on the floor. I saw it drop. Do you want me to find it for you?"
M “No.” Like and idiot I trusted him. I feel like latexman with his son. They are supposed to be skilled professionals.
We got the piece off and there was the piece of the pin stuck in it. Temporary new guy was walking around the shop the first day. As I walk up to TNG and the guy that assured me there was no pin left, he announces we left a pin in there.
Another case of lying came when one of the guys had to pin a piece that required to be torqued to a shaft.
Guy “I am going to drill a countersink into the shaft because the original hole didn’t line up”
Me “We need to drill more than a countersink. First we need to know where the original hole was. Did you mark it?”
G “I don’t know where it is.”
M “You torqued it to 1000ft lbs and the holes didn’t line up?”
G “Yes, do you want me to untorque it to mark the hole?”
I had to put him on hold to answer a phone call.
Come to find out they had not torqued it to 1000ft-lbs. The foreman let them use other means to tighten. So I had to have them back it off and retorque it. The only way I found out about it was when we were trying to torque a different piece and needed a socket reducer. When we couldn’t find it, the question came up of how did they torque the other one. I have learned more about my foreman these past couple of weeks. If he gets wound up about something or someone his judgment is affected. If he gets frustrated or thinks something is taking too long his judgment is affected.
This facility has had more managers than others. There has been sins of management in the past. But there are individuals out here that are not allowed in the other shops. The managers refuse to let them work on their jobs.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
....and comes as no surprise.
It sounds as if you have done some talking around on this and presumably have found out who has tried to do what before and why it failed. Did you find out why no one has taken more serious measures before to get control of this department?
On the plus side, what it does mean is that if you fail to get these guys sorted out, you are doing no worse than anyone else has done and, in a fair world, no one will hold it against you if times get tough.
It might mean that you will want to get support if you ultimately decide to play hardball and should have no trouble getting it.
I would try and get some alignment i.e. get HR and your boss conversant with the problem and with the fact you want to do something about it. Get advice, ideas and most importantly, their support of you in whatever you try to do.
Plan for contingencies e.g. a walk-out, sabotage etc. Expect casulaties in a worst case scenario and be sure that you agree with HR who will go, if they must, in plenty of time for them to do some succession planning.
You might find that when you study on it some more you will find one or two key instigators or influences for whom there is no solution but firing and that this may have a salutory effect on the others.
By the way, I assume you have worked out who are the reliable workers as they must form the core of the department when the dust settles.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Difficult situation need advice
In bottoms-up bidding we ask a bunch of engineers how much time and material is required to perform their tasks. Some will bid high, others will bid low. Over time, you'll figure who does what and adjust accordingly.
Similarly, now that you've built up some experience, hopefully, you'll know who you can trust to tell you the straight truth and who the habitual liars are; and act accordingly.
There's a medical TV show where the main character insists that "all patients lie."
While some patients do not overtly intend to lie, the end result is the same:
D: "Why didn't you tell that you had a heart condition?"
P: "I don't, I'm taking medication for it."
TTFN
RE: Difficult situation need advice
About the torque issue. Depending on the shop procedures and the qualifications of the technicians, I would question whether anyone lied. Here are some life experiences with this:
I worked in the oil field as an engineer. If I asked one of the field hands to torque a 1500# flange, I would not have expected him to grab a hand sledge and hammer wrench. Then put the wrench on the bolts and beat the wrench with the sledge hammer until he though it was tight. This is not what comes to my mind when I say torque; however, it was commonplace for the environment. It took a few months of working in the field side by side with these guys to learn how they worked and the vocabulary they used to describe it.
I managed an automotive repair shop in the 1970s and if I asked a mechanic if he had torqued the lug nuts on a car, he would have said yes meaning he used an air wrench and rattled them tight or he leaned heavily on a lug wrench. Things have changed where using torque wrenches on lug nuts should be mandatory.
If I was required to torque a critical bolt set and could not fit a torque wrench on some of the bolts, I might torque the ones I could reach with a torque wrench and use an end wrench on the other bolts carefully comparing the hand torqued bolts with those tightened with a calibrated torque wrench. If I were asked if I torqued the bolts, I would say yes.
Unless there if formal training and/or written procedures in the shop showing the approved methods of tightening the shaft in question there was no lie. In addition you stated that the mechanic used an approved method (at least approved method by the foreman) of tightening the bolt. Geekmaiden, it sounds like you need to stop calling these guys liars and stop interrogating them as if they were liars. Perhaps, you should spend some time to learn the shop procedures so you can effectively perform you job. If torque was a critical issue with the fastener, I would have asked were the threads lubricated, were they dry, what torque method was used, could someone had inadvertently used the wrong toque multiplier, etc. What you should have learned is that you shop needs some formal procedures and appropriate training for the hands.
About the broken pin. Geekmaiden, you made a mistake about the pin: G "It fell on the floor. I saw it drop. Do you want me to find it for you?" You should have said yes. A fragment could have hit the floor with the rest still being stuck in the shaft. I know that this is difficult for a new engineer; however, blaming the workers at bottom of the barrel will not bring you success. Learn to work with the hands you have if you want to succeed. You may need to fire one or two of the floor hands to get the attention of the others. I believe it is wrong to blame your problems on those with the least education and training. Become a leader and put together a training program. You may not be able to turn these pig ears into a silk purse; however, you might turn them into a handsome leather bag.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
It didn't have a happy ending. They were more afraid of the shop super than they were of me. I'm long gone. So is the shop, but that's another story.
If you can't get a guy fired for saying "I saw it drop.", when it clearly didn't, you'll never get the crew's respect, and the company will never get that operation under control.
Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
RE: Difficult situation need advice
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Actually there are procedures that are written for every job. The job that required the torque showed the required torque and the torque if the converter was used. They sign off when they complete work.
I am not blaming the workers. I am more lamenting the fact that some lack integrity. Integrity is irrelevant to one’s education level. If integrity were tied to education then the majority of politicians would not be able to pass kindergarten.
We do have some reliable workers that I would take a bullet for them. They work hard and they are part of solutions. They are just good people.
RE: Difficult situation need advice
Right now they are playing you because they know its just your word against theirs. But with documentation backing you up, it will change their ways. Now this may force you to witness the trouble shooting to keep them from tossing evidence. Ask to see ALL the damaged "pins" or parts. If they are going to act like kids, then treat them like kids by having them show you how or what they did to get to the current problem. If they throw a fit or start getting defensive, that probably means they are not telling the truth and afraid of being found out.