Unethical Hiring Practices
Unethical Hiring Practices
(OP)
Is anyone else annoyed by the postings on the big internet career sites? All the jobs are through recruiters and alot of them are just temp contract to direct jobs. It seems that none of the companies want to identify themselves and deal "upfront and honest" with engineering candidates.
Is the future of engineering such that we will all have to choose between being pimped out by technical staffing firms or being jobless? Any thoughts?
Is the future of engineering such that we will all have to choose between being pimped out by technical staffing firms or being jobless? Any thoughts?





RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
As far as other companies go, many larger firms do not seem to deal with posting their jobs on these sites (largely because they are already getting in more resumes than they can handle). This often leaves only contract positions for the companies being advertised (since these positions are through much smaller contract houses).
As far as our future goes, I still think the best course of action is to network and make connections with other professionals (or recruiters), and use these relationships to find/improve your situation. I just don't think the internet has yet found a way to really replace this aspect of job-hunting.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I also have noticed that companies don't want to be known who they are. When I am approached by a recruiter, I ask the area and then I specifically ask them the name of the company. Many tell me they are not allowed to say at this point in the job search, that it isn't important. I usually then ask the name of the town/city and the product they produce. Upon knowing this, I then use the internet, Thomas Register, Standard and Poors, etc... to find out who they are, or at least narrow it down. If the recruite doesn't provide this information, I inform them I am not interested.
I would also like to add that I discovered a while back that a lot of the jobs posted by recruiters are to feed their resume pool. They post these incredible jobs with these incredible salaries so that they can get the attention of a lot of people.
These people send in their resume's and then the recruiter suddenly has this other opportunity that more closely matches your skills. It can be very frustrating to any type of engineer, whether experienced or a new grad.
I have ran into some very shady recruiters, and then have had some excellent experiences with others.
In my eyes, not everything about the internet is good, and at times, job recruiting is one of them.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
My pet peeve is that I will often get called for jobs that having nothing to do with me. The recruiter will confirm their information about me and my field of work (civil engineering / municipal / water resources) and then will quickly change gears and tell me that they are looking for an HVAC Engineer and ask me if I know any. I'm almost to the point of telling them that if they place somebody that I have recommended, I want a percentage of their fee. Seems only fair doesn't it ?
As was suggested earlier, I think networking with other professionals in your field will get you a lot further.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
My only experience with recruiters that got past the first phone call involved a firm who wanted someone to manage a major construction project on their behalf. They offered the opportunity to stay behind after the construction was finished and be the plant engineer. The client was astonished when I pointed out that the skills, abilities and mindset for these two positions was directly opposite and someone who was good and happy at one would not good and happy at the other. I would consider a position as a plant engineer as punishment not an opportunity and would expect that the plant operations types out there would rather be thrown into a vat of boiling oil than into a construction project. (At least the oil is quicker). We cannot all want the same thing out of life, that’s what makes life interesting and keeps the competition for my job to a reasonable level.
As a consultant who manages projects I bring to the project not only my own skills but also an office trailer full of computers and technical equipment plus insurance and other benefits. The client wanted this thrown in for free since I would not be using it anyway. (I normally include this stuff in an all inclusive fee structure.) He also wanted me to work as a salaried employee at about 1/3 my usual rate with no compensation for overtime or the two hour a day commute from my home to the project site.
The recruiter did not over sell the job; he was actually quite a decent type of guy. He had been trying to tell the client the same things that I was saying and has several of us CM types tell the client in hopes of convincing him that this was not the way to go.
I have heard through the grapevine that, clients being clients, he got a junior plant operation type, put him in charge of a multi million expansion and is now wondering why he does not have an plant operating and has a few lawsuits from contractors to fight.
Recruiters do serve some good in the hiring process. They can protect the company from a flood of unwanted résumé’s. I had a job opening (entry level technician) that I advertised through some of the usual channels. I was still receiving résumé’s six months after the position was filled. Sometimes the company does not want to be identified. They may be planning or bidding on some work that they do not want to publicly acknowledges or advertise. They may be planning on moving their operation and do not want to upset their current workforce until they know if they are moving.
Good recruiters can also protect you the employee. Say you work for someone who would take a dim view of your looking elsewhere. A mailbox type of ad may be your current employer. A good recruiter will screen you out of employers you do not wish to receive your resume.
Still in 25 years on the job, I have only once got beyond the first phone call with a recruiter or the big job sites. (Not that I have applied for much through the job sites since they are usually looking for different skills than I offer.)
I do agree that networking is your best way to get jobs. I have been on my own for several years and have never gotten any significant work from cold calls. All work has come from people I have known prior to the job.
Manage and nurture your network contacts. I try to call everyone on my contact list at least twice a year. It makes for only a call or two a day if you spread out the calls. If you find out someone’s birthday put it in your planner and call them. Call them near Christmas and wish them the best for the holidays. I don’t bother with the company cards as its too impersonal, a phone call is better. E-mail them a joke (one that you know that they will appreciate I don’t mind off colour jokes but some of my contacts would be offended by that sort of thing.) (I never send the same joke to everyone on my contact list at the same time. I will sent individuals or small groups known to each other the same joke and then send the same joke to others in separate e-mails.) Call once in a while to say hello. Don’t only call when you want something. Call to offer them something, a job lead, a business opportunity, a promising candidate for a job that they may have, or something. If you are passing through their city even just changing planes, take them out for coffee or lunch, or at least use that as an excuse to call.
The best is if you can do something unique for their kids. I was once working on a major Canadian military base that had an annual international fighter exercise. All the NATO countries sent fighters here for a six-week exercise. One of my contacts had a kid who was aircraft crazy. I got them a pass onto the base and they spent the day about 200 m from the ramp where the aircraft (F-`15, F-16, F-18 Harriers, Migs etc) were being serviced (fuel and weapons, think of a pit pass to a race car track). I also passed on a couple of patches (badges) and zaps (stickers) that I had been given and the kid was in seventh heaven. The Dad and I are now discussing some significant work.
The original question was “Is the future of engineering such that we will all have to choose between being pimped out by technical staffing firms or being jobless? Any thoughts?” There is a third option and that is the solo route. I know that it isn’t for everyone but the rewards are real and the satisfaction levels can be higher. If you don’t want to go solo or even if you do I cannot stress the importance of networking to find the real jobs and most importantly the jobs that you fit and that fit you.
Good Luck
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
You wrote: " I'm almost to the point of telling them that if they place somebody that I have recommended, I want a percentage of their fee. Seems only fair doesn't it ?"
Well, you aren't too far off. This one recruiter told me that they actually pay around $150 for any referral that I give them that they place with the company. I'm not sure if you were serious about your comment. It is probably not the percentage you were looking for, and probably not enough to quit your day job. :)
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
You are confusing your objective of a satisfying engineering career with the objective of getting what you want on a website. The latter is not your goal .. and out of your control, anyhow. Forget it.
Recruiters provide a valuable service .. if you can't market yourself. But that is another story... it has nothing to do with engineering per se, or "pimping!!"!!!! Yuck
An excellent book is "How to Survice and Market Yourself in Management" by Plenninger. Written in the 70's before internet, but still so very very helfpul ...
Good luck...
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I was unemployed for almost 6 months after a lay-off and have only been back at work for about 2 months. I was actively seeking a job using networking, the internet, the newspaper,...I also worked as a substitute teacher part of the time I was unemployed & I hated it...I'm glad there are those with a talent & gift for being a teacher as well as the patience to deal with a class of kids like I was - I'm not one of them...
My biggest annoyance with recruiters is being contacted me in response to my resume in monster / careerbuilder / hotjobs / dice indicating they saw my resume & then proceeding to describe a position which HAD THEY READ MY RESUME, they would know I was not qualified for...
As soon as I had a firm employment offer that I accepted, I inactivated my online resumes...
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I've been layed off twice in the last 4 years. After 3 months, I started looking for contract work, just to maintain an income. I found a direct job thru a job shop.
When I was layed off from that job 3 years later, I again turned to CE Weekly (mostly contractor jobs) and took on a couple of 6 month contract assignments. They were a pain, in that I had to move 1000 miles from home for each. However, the pay was good. I could have gone direct with one (the other company cancelled my contract abruptly - 1.5 hour notice - but went belly up a month ago). I didn't really feel like a prostitute, but that I was happy to help these companies out with my experience.
I found my current (direct) job thru Monster.com, just by luck. I just survived a major cutback, and hope I'm here for a while. It doesn't pay nearly what the contract jobs did, but I can get by.
Jobs are scarce, especially with all the high-tech companies folding. Many companies merge and layoff people, which just makes things worse. However, they often find that they must hire contractors (some ex-employees) to get the work done.
Since the cost of benefits has skyrocketed in recent years, contractors look good to many companies. Both company and contractor gain some tax benefits, too. Other than the physical displacement, I would consider contract work if I wasn't working direct. There is no job security or company loyalty anymore, so why not?
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
The reason being that when I did contact two of the candidates, they informed me that they would be in Australia at a latter date (approx. 8-12 weeks) and could we meet then. As the job was for an immediate start I informed them that this was not possible as I hoped to have the new staff member by then. In addition when talking to their referees I found that the people were either traveling or in Australia wanting to apply for a longer term visa (which required a longer term contract job). Again not necessarily a problem, however the job was a permanent position. The point being that I had many inappropriate applicants that wasted my time and theirs.
The recruitment industry needs to re-assess how it places people and companies together for particular jobs so that they are not wasting time and money.
sc
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I am unemployed for 2 months now. I am also working as a substitute teacher part of the time I am unemployed & I don't hate it, but I would rather be doing something else.
Let me tell you, teachers do not get paid enough for what they have to put up with. And no, I was not just as bad as these urchins are.
But substitute teaching looks better on a resume than collecting UC, so let's leave it at that.
I am relying heavily (not completly) on recruiters because,
beside the company that laid me off, I do not know any engineers or anyone who even knows any engineers. And they laid me off because they thought I was incompetent, so the likelyhood of them refering me to anyone is slim.
Where do engineers hang out? What do they do after work?
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
In workshops, sheds and garages, or in front of their PCs
What do they do after work?
More engineering!
Or we meet up in pubs and talk about engineering and alimony. There may be a link there...
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
Please check out www.FlipDog.com - This is not you average employment site. The difference is that FlipDog uses a web crawler to search for employment listings in businesses. So if company ABC is on the web and has an employment page, you will find those jobs listed. As a matter of fact – you will see a copy of that company’s page. The links will not work but you can normally figure out who they are and find them without ever registering with FlipDog. They also have a toggle that eliminates recruiters from being listed.
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
OH HEY HOW'S IT GOING, I HAVE 3 OR 4 IMMEDIATE OPENINGS THAT NEED SOMEONE OF YOUR CALIBER. SEND ME YOUR UPDATED RESUEME AND REQUIREMENTS. Same sales pitch , give me your info, we can place you in a better job and we can do it right now.
I personally have gone with recruiters for two positions (two different placement companies). Neither have been satisfactory. But then again, I like the slogan "why settle". I am willing to stick it out and find the right position on my own. Most head hunters drop me like a hot rock when I tell them that I am only interested in FULL time PERMANANT positions. I dont want them to waste my time and I dont want to waste their time. I guess that I am one of the 5% group that has had 100% bad experiences from placement firms.
Jay
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
Although I did get one interview from all of those online sites, it was networking that actually landed me in my current job. That is how I've made my last three job changes.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
First question I was asked was 'why didn't you apply when we were advertising for people?' The look on their face when I said I had, and got a letter from them saying I didn't fit their current needs, was worth it. Especially when the second person from their side then walked in and asked me the same question
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
In answer to your question – there are a lot of ways for the web sites to earn money by doing what they do without charging your company or a job seeker. Most of them use Ad sales, Resume Writing, bulk Resume sending, and other special services to generate income. Monster partnered itself with BrainBench (a company that does skill testing & certifications). Dice is partnered with another company that does the same thing. Both companies are constantly making other offers as well. Until recently – every time I entered my Dice account I had to select “No Thanks” to an offer for (I believe) insurance.
The key to all of this is the number of users that they can get onto their site. They do not troll your web site – they use a special program called a Bot - that does nothing except search the web for specific things and returns a link to a page. When new links are found – another program is used to filter the contents of that page into the format that they are using. After that – each and every day your site is checked to see if any new positions have been added.
The problem with all of this is that when you hire somebody and remove the position from your site. – It is not remove it from the Job Sites listings. They want to display as many jobs as they can. When I do a Search for “SolidWorks” in California - the default that Dice uses is 30 days – with Monster it is 60 days. In others - 90 days is not uncommon.
I do not know how much cash they make off of this – but I was surprised when I found the advertising pages that listed prices for one of the “Free” Newsletter that I receive – In a 6 month period - the smallest total was $15,000 and the max was $30,000. I think that is a pretty damn good gross for maintaining a mailing list (they do not create any content of their own).
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I have had a lot of luck in the last 20 years with Job Shops. I am not a salesman and I have never been good at getting past the receptionist or the HR people. With a Job Shop – I bypass those people and deal directly with the manager. I’ve found that the only thing most managers care about is getting the work done. A agree - and THAT is where I excel.
As soon as I know what they want – I turn on and start showing off. The wording might not be very good and I don't mean anything obnoxious – but I listen, ask questions, show them what I can do, and try to help in any way that I can. It pays!!! Most of the positions that I have had started out as temporary contracts.
At the same time, I have ended contracts that I was not suited for. The bad part about this is that - invariable – you sever the relationship with the recruiter at the same time. They never seem to understand that just because a person can do something – that they might not want to do it. I am Electro/Mechanical but I have had recruiters try to stuff me into Civil or Architectural positions – both of which I’ve found that I have no talent for or desire to do.
With the web – I have not had that kind of success. The only position that I have gotten off the web made me more than a little nervous. I was in the process of moving to LA when I submitted my resume to a recruiter in MA for a position in LA – I was in NC at the time. He asked if he could modify it slightly to highlight some of the things that I had done. I said sure – but then I wondered how he could do that – he wasn’t there. I called him from Dallas and he told me the manager wanted to do a phone interview. I asked him to fax me a copy of the resume that he had sent them.
I got the fax and I was amazed at the differences. My last position – where I had worked for 5 years was only 6 months long. The two year position before that was missing and a contract that had lasted 6 months had grown to over 6 years. Worse still – that contract was in Mechanical Aviation but it now showed Electrical Aviation. – I may be good – but I am NOT that good!!! Still - I needed to go to work - NOW. I did the phone interview and I got the job. As it turned out - the Recruiter did know the company and I worked there for 4 months. They were happy with my performance and asked if more money would keep me there – but I kept waiting for the Ax to fall. I bailed out of there as soon as I found another position.
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
Now this in itself is not a crime but imagine if you apply to one agency, thinking you are suitably qualified for the position only not to hear anything. A big morale dent. I think agencies do this for two reasons.
They look through papers and other agency job sites and post the positions as thier own.
They have no knowledge of the parent company but only want to have your cv for thier records.
If they do have the companies name they will flood him with cvs hoping one will be taken on, thus getting them a recruitment fee.
all this is for very little work on thier part, but leaves the employee totally bewildered as to why he recieved no response for a position he applied for.
RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
I've worked as a road warrior, a head-hunter, and built
my own consulting firm, giving me a little persective.
When it comes to love, and work, there are no ethics.
Recruiters twenty years ago were a LOT better than today,
more knowledgeable, better connected, good to work for,
they would carry you from your front door to the job-end,
and have a new job waiting. Not so much anymore. Boo hoo.
It's like your banker or broker or lawyer, you just have
to find someone (two) well-qualified, and work with them.
Companies that may or may not have posted jobs use temps
as Federal and State hiring practice laws have gotten so
egregious, and number of spurious, unqualified candidates
so huge, that it's simply not possible to hire direct(ly).
Add to that the tremendous impact of e-mail spam on a LLC,
and you'll see why everyone remains anonymous these days.
So to answer the original post, yes, that's your options.
Figure your first temp job as a loss-leader and really get
busy. Any decent employer will take you direct afterward,
or at least keep you on the will-call list until they can.
From that perspective then, it would be wiser to CALL the
companies you'd like to work for, and ask what head hunters
are doing recruiting for them, than answer @Monster.com's.
You wouldn't look for a blind date online, would you? ; )
And forget about consulting on your own as a bridge, unless
you have exceptional and rare and in demand talent that
people are already asking you to form your own firm. Not
only will you starve, but you can't put it on your resume,
or you won't get call-backs. Nobody wants a free-thinker,
or a person looking to steal clients, even if you aren't.
Hey, look at it this way, there are EIT's out there asking
to work as unpaid aides, just for the experience. At least
we're not so far down they offer us $100 at the day-labor!
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RE: Unethical Hiring Practices
Teachers are not paid enough for what they have to put up with. You have to have a calling & a talent for it to be happy there - this is true for any career. FWIW, were the salaries reversed for teaching & engineering, I'd still pick engineering.