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Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
I recently got a job at a small company in Texas that designs natural gas processing plants.  I'm basically a process engineer, but I can't be called an "engineer" because I'm not a PE yet. My official title is "process associate," but I don't particularly care to use that.  

What are some other alternate titles for process engineers? Is simply putting "process engineering" beneath my name acceptable if it refers to a department. (really, the "Process Engineering Dept." is just me and another guy)

I think the rules change from state to state, but I could be wrong.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

I'm a Texas Aggie ChE graduate with a PE license in Texas, and I know for a fact that a graduate engineer in Texas does not have to be licensed in order to be "called" an engineer.  Have I missed out on something here?

Your company may not want to call you an engineer, but by all other Texas standards and conventions you are, indeed, a graduate Chemical Engineer and recognized as one.  Our great state does not require you to have an engineering license in order to be hired as an engineer - at least not yet.  If it did, my professional engineering fees would automatically jump by a factor of at least 100%!

I believe your company can apply any title to your position that it wants to; I don't believe the Texas State Board of Registered Engineers really gives a hoot what you call yourself - as long as you comply with passing their test(s), following their dictates, and most importantly: paying their outrageous yearly dues.  There are no "special" licensing tests in Texas for Process Engineers.  I know; I'm one.  So, it is my opinion that until registration is mandatory by law for Chemical Engineers you are free to practice as an engineer and be called one in Texas.

I'd be interested in how you have come to your conclusions about taking on an engineering title in Texas when you have graduated from an accredited university with at least a BS in engineering.

 

Art Montemayor
Spring, TX

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
Taken from the Texas Board of Professional Engineers FAQ.

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/enforce_faqs.htm

[quote]What title can I use if I'm a graduate engineer?


Graduates of all public universities recognized by the American Association of Colleges and Universities have the right to disclose any college degrees received and use the title "Graduate Engineer" on stationery, business cards, and personal communications of any character. A graduate engineer who is employed by a registered firm and who is supervised by a licensed professional engineer may use the term "engineer". Refer to the Texas Engineering Practice Act, Section 1001.406.[quote]

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
I am working for a certified firm but my supervisor isn't registered as a professional engineer in the state of Texas.

Also, is there a way to edit these posts?

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

"Process Engineering Specialist"

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

AggieCHEN04:

If your supervisor (who isn't registered in Texas) calls himself an engineer on his calling card, his office sign, his company title, to his clients, etc. etc., then my prior point is made.

Sorry, but there is no way to edit the posts in Eng-Tips after you have posted.  If I have a rather long post, I use my word processor and then cut-'n-paste after spell-checking and proofing.  Also, you can use the "Preview Post" feature button at the bottom of the response box and subsequently edit prior to posting.  But once posted, you've nailed down the coffin.

Gig 'Em.

Art Montemayor
Spring, TX

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
Well it's just something I've heard (from multiple sources) about how TBPE has recently started cracking down on how people use the term engineer.  I went to an engineering ethics seminar at A&M last year and basically heard the same thing.  Technically my boss isn't supposed to either, since he  

This seems pretty consistent with what other engineering firms are doing.  One thing I noticed when interviewing with other design firms is the absence of the word engineer from alot of the younger engineers’ business cards. (unless we are referring to gerund equivalent of "process engineer")

They actually told my boss that he wasn’t supposed to use the term engineer either.  Although actually according to Texas Engineering Practice Act, Section 1001.406 they should be able to call him an engineer since his boss is a PE and the company is certified.

I guess really what it boils down to is that I now have about 300 business with the title “Process Associate” on it while my email sig (which I wrote) says “Process Engineering Dept” in place of my title.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Associate is the correct terminology.

Unless you are licensed, you cannot use the word "engineer" and you cannot "practice" without a license. These words are defined in law and I have listed them below.

I don't understand why engineers think they do not need a license. Would you use a lawyer or a doctor that doesn't have a license?


§ 1001.002. Definitions
In this chapter:
    (1) “Board” means the Texas Board of Professional Engineers.
    (2) “Engineer” means a person licensed to engage in the practice of engineering in this state.

§ 1001.003. Practice of Engineering
(a) In this section:
    (1) “Design coordination” includes the review and coordination of technical submissions prepared by others, including the work of other professionals working with or under the direction of an engineer with professional regard for the ability of each professional involved in a multidisciplinary effort.
    (2) “Engineering survey” includes any survey activity required to support the sound conception, planning, design, construction, maintenance, or operation of an engineered project. The term does not include the surveying of real property or other activity regulated under Chapter 1071.

(b) In this chapter, “practice of engineering” means the performance of or an offer or attempt to perform any public or private service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in applying special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences to that service or creative work.

(c) The practice of engineering includes:
    (1) consultation, investigation, evaluation, analysis, planning, engineering for program management, providing an expert engineering opinion or testimony, engineering for testing or evaluating materials for construction or other engineering use, and mapping;
    (2) design, conceptual design, or conceptual design coordination of engineering works or systems;
    (3) development or optimization of plans and specifications for engineering works or systems;
    (4) planning the use or alteration of land or water or the design or analysis of works or systems for the use or alteration of land or water;
    (5) responsible charge of engineering teaching or the teaching of engineering;
    (6) performing an engineering survey or study;
    (7) engineering for construction, alteration, or repair of real property;
    (8) engineering for preparation of an operating or maintenance manual;
    (9) engineering for review of the construction or installation of engineered works to monitor compliance with drawings or specifications;
    (10) a service, design, analysis, or other work performed for a public or private entity in connection with a utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, system, work, project, or industrial or consumer product or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, hydraulic, pneumatic, geotechnical, or thermal nature; or
    (11) any other professional service necessary for the planning, progress, or completion of an engineering service.



§ 1001.552. Criminal Penalty
(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
    (1) engages in the practice of engineering without being licensed or exempted from the licensing requirement under this chapter;
    (2) violates this chapter;
    (3) presents or attempts to use as the person’s own the license or seal of another; or
    (4) gives false evidence of any kind to the Board or a Board member in obtaining a license.

(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1421, § 1, eff. June 1, 2003.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

AggieCHEN04
Throw out the cards and get new ones that say Process Engineer or as mentioned above Process Engineering Specialist.  You have the right.  What you don't yet have the right to do is at the end of your title to add P.E.
That is all that separates licensed engineers from anyone who wants to call themselves an engineer, with or without a degree.  As a side note I am a chemical engineer and my little brother is also has engineer as a title, however he drives trains.  Crazy but true.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Many companies apply the term "technical professional" to non-registered engineers and designers.  Many people use the phrase "Process Engineering" - sort of department approach without a title.  From my last reading of the November 2004 rules, I think that you can call yourself a "graduate engineer".  This might buy more if you include your EIT number.  The latter is applicable to a resume'.

I would avoid a title such as "Engineering Consultant".  The board definitely cares what you call yourself if the word engineer is included.  This is a larger issue if you sell services to the public.  I would not have become licensed if it were not for the rules changes in 1992.

John

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

I agree with StoneCold's candid and frank truths - all of them.

This thread is not supposed to be about "Professional, registered (& "titled") engineers.  The sacrosanct subject of "ethics" has even been mentioned.  A lot of political and useless "rules" from the Texas State Board of Registration for Professional Engineers has been recited - which does not apply to all graduate engineers - and all this to state what?  The original question was: Can I print the title "Process Engineer" under my name on my calling card and on the door to my office?  I believe StoneCold answered that clearly.  Of course you can.  Who is going to stop you?  Your boss?  The Texas Rangers?  The county sheriff?  The FBI?  The Texas Railroad Commission (since you don't drive locomotives)?   The only answer that clearly applies is: Your boss - the guy who signs your check.  All the Texas State Board does is TAKE your money (& gives nothing back); the TSB is nothing more than a beaurocratic, political cubby hole for placing inept and incompetant political appointees and justifying the collection of TAXES (because that's really what the dues are) from "professional" engineers.   We PE's get absolutely nothing for our dues - not even a chance to pass on the charges to others, which is what Doctors and Lawyers do everyday.  We PE's get stuck with the dues, the liability, and the "control" by the state's political machine.

I don't know what AggieCHEN04 means by "cerified".  I can only guess he alludes to the ISO classification.  But the heart of the thread is that the title an engineer inherits, is given, takes on, or is stuck with has little to do with what he accomplishes.  I really don't give a flying flip what the TSB tells me to call myself - and much less what they assert to be their version of the "correct" title.  

The more that engineers get mired in politics and bureaucracy, the more ridiculous and ineffective they become.  I refuse to compare myself with doctors and lawyers.  We are held to much higher and more serious standards than they are.  The proof of what I state is that Doctors have society pay for burying their deadly mistakes and insurance companies (that their patients pay) for covering the survivors of their mistakes.  Lawyers are even more devious: society pays them to defend everyone (without any liability) and then incarcerates the product of their ineptness or mistakes.  We, as professional engineers, face incarceration and prosecution if we make a mistake in our calculations or if our workers do not follow our instructions.  And we have no insurance coverage for that.

We can call ourselves whatever we want - it's still a free country - and we don't have to be locomotive drivers to be engineers.
 

Art Montemayor
Spring, TX

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Art,
As usual your post is insightful.  In this case it is also inciteful.  Our dinero is applied to the general fund and not engineering.  Renewal time?

John

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Don't know where all of the anti-establishment hostility comes from. For pete's sake, even the lowly beautician or locksmith is required to have a license.

What would you think of a person who put "doctor of medicene" on his card. Who would be willing to pay that person? The license procedures was put in place to protect the public from unscrupulous people.

If one want to avoid the "potential" for future problems, use the word "associate" or "technician".

One other comment, the company where I used to work changed all of the business cards (including pe's) from engineer to associate to avoid problems when working out of state. For instance, you can can't legally go into texas to solicit work when your business card is a PE from another state.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Just use the title used in your signing of the job contract.  I think a Process Engineer Title is suitable enough.  I guess you can also use Process Engineer Associate.  

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

bimr:

I don't believe the subject or the topic of registering for a PE is the point in this thread.  I believe that subject should be discussed in a totally different Forum - such as "How to improve myself.." (if registration can be considered an "improvement").

If you are a PE, as I am, then you can appreciate the arbitrary and different points of view on that subject.  I won't discuss them here, but will only re-iterate my response to the original question: you can legally and democratically call yourself a Process Engineer in Texas - whether the State Registration Board agrees on that is a totally different and irrevalent issue, as long as you don't call yourself a PE or consult as a PE.  I don't believe the Board has the legal authority to have you arrested or incarcerated for calling yourself an engineer; otherwise, all the locomotive drivers from Orange to El Paso would be in jail - as StoneCold inferred.

If engineers want to associate themselves with or call themselves locksmiths or hairdressers, that's their right also.  These Eng-Tips Forums are for ALL ENGINEERS - whether registered, PE, or just graduates.  That has been dictated by the forum management and coincides to what I stated previously.

Art Montemayor
Spring, TX

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Montemayer, The following are excerpts from Texas Law. Suggest you read it carefully or have your lawyer explain it you.

Nobody disagrees as to what you want to call yourself. The point is that it is illegal to practice or hold yourself out to be an engineer if you do not have a license:

"§ 1001.552. Criminal Penalty
(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
    (1) engages in the practice of engineering without being licensed or exempted from the licensing requirement under this chapter;"


Here is the definition of "engineer" in texas law:

"§ 1001.002. Definitions
In this chapter:

    (2) “Engineer” means a person licensed to engage in the practice of engineering in this state.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1421, § 1, eff. June 1, 2003."


The practice of engineering is specifically spelled out as well:

"c) The practice of engineering includes:
    (1) consultation, investigation, evaluation, analysis, planning, engineering for program management, providing an expert engineering opinion or testimony, engineering for testing or evaluating materials for construction or other engineering use, and mapping;
    (2) design, conceptual design, or conceptual design coordination of engineering works or systems;
    (3) development or optimization of plans and specifications for engineering works or systems;
    (4) planning the use or alteration of land or water or the design or analysis of works or systems for the use or alteration of land or water;
    (5) responsible charge of engineering teaching or the teaching of engineering;
    (6) performing an engineering survey or study;
    (7) engineering for construction, alteration, or repair of real property;
    (8) engineering for preparation of an operating or maintenance manual;
    (9) engineering for review of the construction or installation of engineered works to monitor compliance with drawings or specifications;
    (10) a service, design, analysis, or other work performed for a public or private entity in connection with a utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, system, work, project, or industrial or consumer product or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, hydraulic, pneumatic, geotechnical, or thermal nature; or
    (11) any other professional service necessary for the planning, progress, or completion of an engineering service."

In regards to your brother the "train engineer", there is a specific exemption in Texas law:

"§ 1001.055. Mechanical, Electrical, or Other Equipment
(a) A person is exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter if the person is installing, operating, repairing, or servicing a
locomotive or stationary engine, steam boiler, diesel engine, internal combustion engine, refrigeration compressor or system, hoisting
engine, electrical engine, air conditioning equipment or system, or mechanical, electrical, electronic, or communications equipment or
apparatus.
(b) This exemption does not permit a person to:
(1) sign an engineering plan or specification if the person is not an engineer; or
(2) use the term “engineer” or “engineering” in any manner prohibited by this chapter."

AggieCHEN04 is free to call himself a "graduate engineer", not "engineer", "process engineer", or anything other type of "engineer" if he complies with the following section of texas law:

"§ 1001.406. Graduate Engineers
(a) A graduate of a university recognized by the American Association of Colleges and Universities who has a degree from an engineering program accredited by the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) has the right to:
    (1)  disclose any college degree received by the person; and
    (2)  use the term “graduate engineer” on the person’s stationery or business cards or in personal communications of any character.
(b) A graduate engineer who is employed in a firm registered under this chapter and who is working under the direct supervision of a licensed professional engineer may use the term “engineer” on the person’s stationery or business cards or in personal communications of any character.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1421, § 1, eff. June 1, 2003.Amended 78th Leg, SB 277, eff. September 1, 2003."



Otherwise, if an unlicensed person wants to avoid the "potential" for a problem with the licensing board, it is recommended to use the words "associate" or "technician".

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

The original question was "What are some other alternate titles for process engineers?"

The answer is that you can call yourself anything you want to except for "engineer" unless you qualify to be called a "graduate engineer" in accordance with "§ 1001.406. Graduate Engineers.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
Where do you guys work?  I think it's interesting (although not entirely surprising) that the civil/environmental guy is the biggest stickler about the issue.

From my own understanding, it seems that the type of "process engineer" you are makes a big difference as to how closely people follow the letter of the law.  For example:

Internal:  You work as a process engineer in a production facility like Shell, Exxon, Encana, etc.  All of the engineering work is internal.  Well, who the hell cares what you call yourself?  You aren't going out and pedaling engineering services to the general populous.  Technically, (although it's generally not done anymore) somebody could be promoted to an engineering position without any college at all. If this was the type of job that I had, I wouldn't have any reason to start this thread.

Private Consulting:  This is where I am, and it's also where it becomes hazy.  Calling yourself an engineer in this field without being a PE seems to be a bit naughty.  Generally (as I mentioned before) I've notice that young engineers generally don't seem to use the term "engineer" in their titles unless it's followed by PE.  I'm not quite sure why.  I guess it has to do with the politics and the fact that you are offering your services to others makes you more visible.  The cardinal rule is, practice engineering all you want, but don't sign off on any government projects. (which you aren't likely to see anyways)

Public Work:  This is probably the reason that the term "Professional Engineer" exists.  Probably 99% of chemical engineers will only work for private companies doing private projects/work and will never do work for the government or the general public.  But it makes perfect since that if you are doing work for the general public (your bosses in an extremely round-about way) that you would need the governments stamp of approval.  This seems to be especially important for all forms of civil engineering.

Not that any of this is important to me right now, but since we have seemed to have moved from the specific supject to the philosophy of engineering, I thought I'd get my two cents in.

Just a side note to bimr:  I used to work at a company where a guy was promoted directly from welder/maintenance to HSE.  As long as nothing catastrophic happens, it will probably never be a problem.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

AggieCHEN04:

In your original post you stated: "I recently got a job at a small company in Texas that designs natural gas processing plants."  Now your say: "Private Consulting:  This is where I am..".

Now we're all confused.

Art Montemayor
Spring, TX

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)
Basically, I meant consulting type work in the private sector....as opposed to doing work for the government.  

Yes, I appoligize, that was poorly worded.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

One or more of the big E&C firms in Houston eliminated engineering titles on business cards.  During the same time frame the state board was encouraging the use of P.E. on business cards, letters, etc.  Excluding the title intentionally avoids differentiating engineers from designers.  Inclusion of the PE abreviation is a "feel good" thing for some.

My cards have an engineer title and P.E. after my name.  Like many in Texas, I became registered after the state started grand-standing on the engineer title - and using stiff licensing fees to pay the state employees.

John

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

I don't live in Texas, and have a few dumb questions....

Are all piping designers in Texas P.E.s? Why would a piping designer, responsible for the layout of a piping system, not qualify as:

(2) design, conceptual design, or conceptual design coordination of engineering works or systems;

and/or

(7) engineering for construction, alteration, or repair of real property;

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Few piping designers in Texas are P.E.

A piping designer often lays out a piping system.  A piping engineer performs the stress analysis and may be responsible for most of the design, materials, etc.  Although designers make the big bucks including 1.5X overtime, some engineer who spent his time at the university often gets stuck with the responsibility for the designers work.  Few projects are "public" per se thus are not stamped.

A management of change process evaluates the engineering for construction - where the site has problems and engineering responds with modifications or documents the suitability, etc.  Defferent names for the process include request for information, advanced design notice, site query, etc.

I do not follow the comment regarding repair of real property.  You may want to clarify this.

John

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

AggieCHEN04,

You answered your own question. "As long as nothing catastrophic happens, it will probably never be a problem."

I am not intending to be a stickler, I am just letting you know what the law says.

The same thing happens to anyone in business operating without any a required license. Someone will invariably get mad about something or other (girlfriend, divorce, customer etc.) and turns in a complaint to the licensing board.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

(OP)

Quote:

The same thing happens to anyone in business operating without any a required license.

I'm operating without a license as long as I fulfill the role of process engineer and don't have my PE.

Quote:

Someone will invariably get mad about something or other (girlfriend, divorce, customer etc.) and turns in a complaint to the licensing board.

This is something I've been wondering about.  I'm curious as to how common this is.  If the Board does catch you calling yourself an engineer, how severe is the punishment?  Does your company get fined?  I wonder what the legal precedence is?  I would think that the TBPE would be reluctant to go against larger firms and companies.

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)


AggieCHEN04,

This is what the situation is. People who work in the civil field are working with the general public. You are more likely to run into problems with licensing as a result of this. For example, some communities specify that plans have to be stamped by a licensed engineer. Also, in the civil field, you are working with politicians who are always looking to smear someone else. An unlicensed engineer is be an easy target. Can't you just imagine the newspaper headlines?

Conversely, Mr. Montemayor and yourself are working for private entities with smaller numbers of people involved. There is little enforcement of registration unless problems occur, and then enforcement will come down like a hammer.

Here is an example:
http://ethics.tamu.edu/ethics/hyatt/hyatt1.htm

Personally, I think all engineers should be registered. It will raise everyone's salaries if non-engineers are kept out of the engineering field. It is a simple matter of supply and demand. Likewise, companies are happy to hire unqualified people at low salaries. And I doubt it is against the law to hire a cheaper unqualified person.

According to US employment laws, most people are "at will" employees and can be fired for any reason and without cause. In this work environment, it is foolhardly to talk about personal freedoms, crummy state licensing boards, etc. Whatever you can demand for salary, you are worth it.

Some other references:
http://www.tcnj.edu/~rgraham/license.html
http://www.peng.ca/english/students/faqs.html

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

Bimr

Hang in there!  I like the way you think.

On a side note, by the leter of the law...I probably violated my liscensure in ethics just by taking time away from work to read all these pose!

RE: Alternate Titles for a Process Engineer (EIT)

A couple of years back, the EPC company I work for had to go through a big rigamarole to come up with standard titles and all the non-PE's had to get new cards w/o Engineer on them.  People with PE's (as I am now) are Mechanial Engineer, Process Engineer, etc.  Those who work in engineering but do not have PE's are Mechanical Specialists.  I don't think we were fined, but the change was mandated by the state board.

I understand that the state has since relaxed things to allow us to use Engineer as an internal title, but since we've already changed over and had these new titles for several years, so we're sticking with them.

The whole engineering licensing system is geared toward civil engineers doing bridges and buildings for the state or "the public".  Things don't seem to translate very well over into the world of process/electrical/mechanical/civil engineering that is typically done by EPC companies for the various refineries and chemical plants around the Houston shipchannel.  Quite frankly, the industry is somewhat to blame for this already as the engineers that I deal with who work for the client companies are "industry exempt" since they don't offer engineering "to the public" but just for their parent companies.

I'm a stress engineer for my company and I do analysis/design work all the time.  Virtually nothing is ever stamped and the EPC's and Clients seem to prefer it that way.  

Now as far as the original poster's question goes, since you are not a PE, you'll save yourself any grief by calling your self an associate or specialist or something else until you get your PE.  

I think Montemayor is giving you bad advice by encouraging you to call yourself an engineer.  You have an engineering degree, that's all.  Unless he's offering to pay your fine to the state if someone reports you.  We can gripe about what do/don't get from the state for the licensing fees we pay, but the bottom line is that, whether you have a PE or not, if you're working in Texas, the TBPE has jurisdiction and can impose fines on you.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

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