Ethics, what advice do you have?
Ethics, what advice do you have?
(OP)
I want to run a hypothetical situation past the professionals on this forum for a “what would you do” answer.
A truss designer of limited experience joins a company and over time, realizes there is a big problem. He designes, permits, and has built houses that have never been reviewed by a real engineer. Not to say the company doesn’t have a real engineer, but this engineer has never actually physically seen any of these drawings. He relies on the individual truss designers, to use their judgment on what works and what does not. Thousands of homes have been built this way, and countless problems have occurred. The company has done an Enron style cover up for so long, they have it down to a science. Now, the designer does not have an engineering degree, and doesn’t know quite how to begin to approach this problem, so he sits on it, trying to figure out what to do. He knows when/if this is made public, he has inadvertently become an accomplice to this and is scared out of his mind. He has a family and needs to support them, but he wants to do what is right, but he doesn’t know what the right thing is. What advice would you give him? Remember, this is all hypothetical.
A truss designer of limited experience joins a company and over time, realizes there is a big problem. He designes, permits, and has built houses that have never been reviewed by a real engineer. Not to say the company doesn’t have a real engineer, but this engineer has never actually physically seen any of these drawings. He relies on the individual truss designers, to use their judgment on what works and what does not. Thousands of homes have been built this way, and countless problems have occurred. The company has done an Enron style cover up for so long, they have it down to a science. Now, the designer does not have an engineering degree, and doesn’t know quite how to begin to approach this problem, so he sits on it, trying to figure out what to do. He knows when/if this is made public, he has inadvertently become an accomplice to this and is scared out of his mind. He has a family and needs to support them, but he wants to do what is right, but he doesn’t know what the right thing is. What advice would you give him? Remember, this is all hypothetical.





RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
It could be posed as a simply a desire to understand the safety factors used in the previous design.
TTFN
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
Two presuppositions here:
First, the assumption that a licensed engineer is required by law, and thus compels and ethical response on the truss designer, is not necessarily correct. For most states in the US, a home is not required to have a licensed engineer designer. So the legal compulsion to "be ethical" here may not apply.
Second, the assumption that the engineer in the company doesn't see the designs, but relies on the truss designers to do their designs correctly, can definitely be construed as an ethical issue. The company is selling a product to the public, and public safety is affected. If the product is flawed, or the process that develops the product is flawed (evidenced by "countless problems"), then it may be a compelling reason for the truss designer to approach the engineer and suggest that the Quality Assurance/Quality Control within the company may be in need of repair.
After this discussion, whether the engineer/company takes appropriate action or not, the truss designer has 2 options,
1. Document the conversation, copy the conversation to the participants and go on with your work, or
2. Document the conversation, copy the conversation to the participants, and resign.
Ethically (in item 1 above) you can only go so far, as a truss designer, in changing the company. It then falls on your own conscience as to whether to continue to participate in their work.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
I guess I was under the impression that if the engineer seals something, he should at least see it, not have the individual designers stamping drawings themselves, while he's retired living in another state.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
If an engineer is required and he's not a "real" you have to turn them in to the state board of engineering.
This is the tough part. You have to have the facts straight. You cannot complain to most boards anomaliously. So the hypothetical designer may never work again.
Somewhere a higher than usual snowload may collapse a roof and kill people, do you want to be a part of that?
Owners and higher ups in a company are usually better protected than the peons. I believe at Enron some of the indians have gone to jail but the chiefs are still wondering around. Lots of "whistle blower" laws out there but they don't seem to be working.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
The roof collapsed one winter with a 36" drift on the leeward side. Hogs still all snug and warm underneath as the cages kept the roof from falling on them.
It ended up that the truss fabricator had "designed" the trusses for 20 psf live load....this barn was located in an area with a ground snow load of 45 psf. When depositioned, the truss designer stated that they "just put into the computer the standard roof live loads that they always did". The farmer had been asked "what kind of truss do you want" and he just replied "just a standard truss to span 80 feet".
The truss cut sheet was not sealed because this was an agricultural building so no code applied legally. But it goes to show that lots of wood trusses are designed with "computer operators" who don't really know what they are doing. And the engineer's supervising them don't really spend a lot of time reviewing / checking the designs.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
Call the board and ask them. You can ask anomaliously in most cases. You just can't file a formal complaint.
If something crooked is going on and you don't bring it to the attention of authorities you are generally culpable. See your attorney.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
If you suspect that an engineer is not providing this supervision, call the engineering board, discuss the details with them. They can give you the best advice as to what course of action is appropriate, legal, ethical, and proper. They can also tell you what "next steps" can be taken and the ramifications of those steps.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
It was during his career of consulting, and he was called concerning a structural failure of top chords in a small suspension bridge, the Steubenville Bridge near Pittsburgh. When he met the designer he found out that the design was by rule of thumb rather than by detail calculations. He made several recommendations to the owner, and the recommended fix was shelved by the original designer. Later, the same failure occurred on the symmetric other side of the bridge. This time Steinman was engaged to fix the bridge.
The sour ending of the story is that the original designer blackballed Steinman when he applied to a professional society of consulting engineers. The book continues:
"...Steinman learned that among certain groups in the profession an engineer is supposed to whitewash and conceal unsafe or incompetent designs made by a fellow engineer. At this he balked, then and always."
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
Further, since this involves public activities, Florida has a "whistle-blower" statute that will protect you and your colleagues from adverse action by your employer. If any of these designs have been submitted to a public agency (which I'm sure they have) this statute will likely apply.
We do not need this type of activity in our profession. We have an ethical and statutory obligation to report such.
Kudos to you and your colleagues for your professional approach. Good luck and keep us informed.
Ron
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
John
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
Lions,
You are to be commended for your courage and integrity. I wish that I had the same strength. I recommend that you copy some of the company documents that support your allegations. My current employer is performing engineering in a state that the design & managerial personnel are not licensed in. I have no involvement in the project but am licensed in the particular state in question. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that they don't ask me to "rubber stamp" the drawings. If they do, I'll tell them to go fly a kite. Luckily, I have enough finances to ride out a long period of unemployment if they retaliate.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
One thing I'm confused about. Does the company think that firing all of the designers is gonna solve the problem? From what I understand it's the company at fault here, not the designers. If this really does lead to your osterization from the field then we've got serious problems in our profession.
I'm hoping you will find the state board responsive. Keep us posted and hang in there.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
Let me also say thanks for being professional and standing up for the right thing, I have been there, and while it may not be plesant, you will sleep better at night ( at least I did )
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
I sounds like you have work colleagues in a similar situation and it sounds like your combined questioning of the 'management' is resulting in a harsh and unfair response from the company.
Collectively you and your colleagues need to approach the relevant authority. You will of course let the authority know that you were ignorant of the seriousness of the situation and that your recent questions were as a direct result of you becoming aware of the situation that you found yourself in.
I would hope that your industry is populated, in the most part, by companies who do have the proper engineering standards and that they would not have any problem employing either you or your colleagues. I wish you good luck.
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
See the article on stature of repose and more at the following site http://www.chamberlainlaw.com
Also go to houstonisa.org to listen to an audio string and follow along with the pdf presentation at the following site:
http:
Regards,
John
RE: Ethics, what advice do you have?
This reminds me of a wood truss collapse that I was called in to investigate a few years ago. A farmer (hog farmer with a Construction Engineering degree from a major university) had decided to construct a large (80' x 350') hog confinement barn. It was all wood framed with insulated/plastic panels. The hogs lived in steel cages inside.
The roof collapsed one winter with a 36" drift on the leeward side. Hogs still all snug and warm underneath as the cages kept the roof from falling on them.
It ended up that the truss fabricator had "designed" the trusses for 20 psf live load....this barn was located in an area with a ground snow load of 45 psf. When depositioned, the truss designer stated that they "just put into the computer the standard roof live loads that they always did". The farmer had been asked "what kind of truss do you want" and he just replied "just a standard truss to span 80 feet".
The truss cut sheet was not sealed because this was an agricultural building so no code applied legally. But it goes to show that lots of wood trusses are designed with "computer operators" who don't really know what they are doing. And the engineer's supervising them don't really spend a lot of time reviewing / checking the designs.
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This is not true about no codes applying. There are ASAE standards that apply to Agricultural buildings. The codes concerning the Snow and Wind loadings for this building would have been under ASAE EP288.5 DEC92. These can be found at www.ASAE.org. I have been confirming snow and wind loads for several buildings in Oklahoma. One catch here in Oklahoma, if the building is under $40,000 and isn't housing people, there is no need for a PE to legally sign off on the agricultural building even though there are Standards that apply and the builder will be libel for.
There are standards for HVAC units for agricultrual buildings, and emergency ventilation as well on a side note. I had a friend who lost 25 $25K dogs at his kennels because his newly installed HVAC locked up last summer in defrost mode and he didn't have any emergency ventilation. Having Licensed engineers doing proper design affects everyone including proffessional dog trainers.