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Given someone else's work...

Given someone else's work...

Given someone else's work...

(OP)
I was given another engineer's work cause he wasn't getting it  done. This is in addition to my own work. He wasn't fired and now doesn't have much responsibility. He sits there and reads the paper while I work. He's been around a lot longer than myself, is one title above myself, and probably makes $20,000 more than me a year. I'm by far the youngest in the department and I get results.

Should I ask for a larger (8% or greater) raise?

Should I request to be promoted to the same title?

Am I being taken advantage of?

RE: Given someone else's work...

Yes, yes and yes.

Quite what the outcome would be I am not sure.

On the other hand - do you have time to do all that you are asked in a normal week? ie without working unpaid overtime?

Why not ask him to give you a hand on some of this stuff?

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Given someone else's work...

(OP)
My work is so open-ended that most of it never really gets "done". I work on what I can and the rest of it waits for another day.

I don't work many extra hours because I'm not paid for it. If I was, I would.

He does help out but that's not the point.

RE: Given someone else's work...

Suggest that you apply some pressure, tempered with patience. Management may we "waiting" to see if the employee will get bored and voluntarily move on. If this happens (in a reasonable length of time) but you still don't get the pay & promotion, you will have the answer.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: Given someone else's work...

(OP)
The employee has been there for 20+ years and isn't going anywhere voluntarily.

I would like a promotion but then I'd have the same title as others in the department that could be my dad and I don't think it would go over too well.

RE: Given someone else's work...

I wouldn't be too sure about that - at 26 I was at the highest technical non-supervisory grade in the organisation. I still am at 45!

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Given someone else's work...

I have a slightly different view point.  Do you enjoy your work ?  That includes the work which you got in addition to your 20+ year experienced colleague.  If yes, enjoy working.  

I have never ever asked for a raise throughout my 14 + years of working life.  I felt I was always recognised for my work and paid accordingly, except on a couple of occasions when it probably got delayed for whatever reasons.  Once I felt I was being taken for a ride, and my superiors were just using me and not worried about my growth, I quit that company.

The above may or may not apply in your case.

HVAC68

RE: Given someone else's work...

a human resources fable...

As told to me by my friend, a corporate HR type...

Quote:

A man is driving a wagon pulled by two horses through the desert.  One horse works hard, the other horse barely pulls hard enough to not be an added burden.

When there is trouble, like going uphill or being stuck in a rut, the driver whips the hard-working horse.  This is because he knows whipping the lazy horse will do no good.

It all ends on the day they are crossing a swollen river.  The lazy horse stops for a nap, the beaten horse finally has had enough and quits, and they all find eternal rest.

The kicker is that your colleague knows exactly what he's doing!  The boss likely knows and tolerates it for whatever lame dysfunctional reason.

Quote (TheTick):

Tick's law of business anthropology #1:
Bull$η!+ continues only because someone allows it to.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: Given someone else's work...

Negotiate!

Be aware that when you take on extra work, if it means that

Quote:

My work is so open-ended that most of it never really gets "done". I work on what I can and the rest of it waits for another day.
it could mean that you are not performing to the best of your ability in any area.
There is a danger here that the engineer who sits and reads his paper can show that what he does do, gets done. You are only able to show lots of incomplete work despite working all the time.

There are only so many hours in the day. You may need to negotiate what work is to be done.
When given a new task, get it clearly defined and ask for your work to be prioritised and make good estimates of time involved.
Also, don't consider it "extra work" but new work.
There is a difference. If you are given new work with other work still in progress, you need to make it clear that you can only do so much and cannot complete other tasks.
Ask your boss what his priorities are and what work you should drop. You need him to be aware of the impact of adding new work to your workload.

You need to make your time management problems your boss's so that he fully understands what happens and why.
The alternative is that without understanding why you don't finish anything, they will think you are a poor worker, not a good one.

Don' try to do too much and don't let anyone try to make you do too much. Don't be obstructive, just share the problem of time management with your boss. After all, he has to be responsible for timely completion of tasks. He may not recognise this as a resource problem and he may end up thinking you are the one who is not capable of doing the work.

You know, there is a message here, and you have outlined it clearly, the guy who reads a paper is less stressed, completes his work and gets paid more and is more senior. YOU may be the one who is subsidising his life style! and taking the risks.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Given someone else's work...

You mention that you only would put in extra hours if paid for it.  That's not a professional approach.  As engineers, we must consider that we are professionals and will put in the extra effort.  Otherwise, you're just an hourly employee doing something that will eventually become a commodity service.

Put in the extra effort...show you're worth the extra bucks.  If they don't come through, go elsewhere, but don't whine about conditions if you're not willing to put in the effort to progress yourself.

RE: Given someone else's work...

(OP)
I do not work a flat 40 every week. I average 42-45 hours per week.

RE: Given someone else's work...


1. Look at the work that is given. is it something that you think will increase your skill and mechanical skill..hence..make your resume good. If yes, then just do it as best you can.
2. Look at it as a chance to impress your boss.
3. When you are the youngest one around, it is very tough environment.

Tell your boss to prioritize your task. This is very important. keep him updated everyweek. and remember, when you are ready to do those 3 things you mentioned, is your "bargaining power" high enough. If itsn't it will be a boomerang for you.

I did this for 3 years, getting bullied around, do all the leg work, and all that. It was mentally tough, but I manage to suck it up an I ended up learning so many things. When the layoff season comes around, I was one of the 3 MEs who survived out of 16...U know why, because I was cheaper and more productive than those guys.

I think the key is to keep your boss(es) updated on what you are doing.

Cheers.
APH

RE: Given someone else's work...

He couldn't get the job done so they handed it to you.
He is reading the paper with no responsibilities.
He wasn't fired.

YET!!!
It normally takes a while for a department manager and HR to "build a file" on someone prior to firing.  Reading the paper while you do work that he couldn't handle are two points that go into that file.

Do your job and let the system work through the deal.

John

RE: Given someone else's work...

That assumes the system works.

Hg

RE: Given someone else's work...

jsummerfield
He could have those legendary pictures of someone with a goat.  
A good reason never to drink at company picnic.

RE: Given someone else's work...

As I see it, you are being suckered. Tell your manager this is not right. Its okay to help if the guy is swamped, but why should you do his work so he can kick back. I would tell the guy to do his own work. If this goes on long enough, no matter what happens, you will be resentful and cynical. I say this company and you are not a good match and it is time to move on.

RE: Given someone else's work...

Nodiggity....If you are only averaging 42-45 hours a week, I wouldn't consider that you have been overly burdened by anything.  That's not much.  If you had stated that you couldn't get all of your work done in 65 or 70 hours of effort because of the extra load, and no one seemed to care, I'd be right there with you.  A 2-5 hour increase in your work week as a salaried professional is minimal.  I would question why you aren't doing more than that on a routine basis.

Your attitude of "I don't work many extra hours because I'm not paid for it. If I was, I would", is exactly why you aren't paid for it. Management are sometimes not the idiots you consider them to be.  They probably see more than you realize and now is the time for you to "step up to the plate" if you want to be recognized.

RE: Given someone else's work...

I'd be more carefull to spend more than 45 hours/week. I did in my early years and it didn't benefit me. 40-50 hours is OK, not more than that.

1. You can be taken adavantage by willing working long hours. Your boss will fill you with more work, thinking that you are OK to work long hours.

2. In my experience, 8-9 hours/day is enough to make my eyes really sore at the end of the day. detail attention is reduced, you can make more mistake that way. Your brain is exhausted after that.

3. If you are tired after work, you can't do anything else outside work, unless you have no life outside work.


If your boss gave you someone's els work ,while others are chilling, then I'm pretty sure that he can't manage his engineer, and he will continue to shuffle work to you as long as he can.

RE: Given someone else's work...

APH
I think the goal should be 40 Hrs average.  Your paid for your knowledge not your time.  You want to get paid by the hour become a teamster or an electrican.  
50 hrs some weeks 32 hrs sometime in the summer.  Even on those 32 hr weeks don't most of us still think about work?  Do you ever solve problems somewhere besides your desk or your cube?

RE: Given someone else's work...

Except that somehow those 32-hour weeks aren't nearly as acceptable to management as the 50-hour weeks.

In the "you can't win" department--you can work long hours to show how dedicated you are, and then they might say that you must not be managing your time well if you need to stay so late.

Hg

RE: Given someone else's work...

Dear All:
We are speaking about working hours, if 40 is too much, if 50 is Ok. We are engineers. We care about outputs, productivity. I can give you my example:
I was used to work around 11-12h/day.  Then, last year I enrolled in a MBA in a post-labour schedule, and I was "forced" to reduce my working time. Now I work an average of 9.5 hours/day. A 20% decrease on the working time.
Did my work suffered with it?
I cannot say that it didn't, specially in the first times while I was organizing myself to the new schedule. After that, I don't think that it is so noticeable the impact. In fact, I even think that I've improved my productivity, since I think that I can make maybe 95% of the work that I did previously:
-I delegate much more;
-I don't count on "Well, in the end of the day when everybody's gone I will finish this";
-I organize my work better.

So working hours doesn't mean anything. What means is what comes out of those hours. Of course that is not the point of view of most of the bosses. For them, you could even bring your bed and stay in the office.
What I don't understand is the concept of "open-ended" work. Is there no deadlines? Are they constantly overrun?
Idf yes, then your work is not open ended. You are making it open-ended. That's different.

Sorry for the long post.

PR


 

RE: Given someone else's work...

BJC,

Sure, I thought about work from the day I wake up to the day I'm about to go to bed. I agree with all of you about what comes out of those hours. What I'm saying is that, at some point, you have to be able to say NO to your boss. I have experienced that I work 60 hours/week for almost 4 months for most days of the week, and it got me bad. And it happened like that because I can't say no to my boss, worrying what he's thinking about me, so he kept shufflying work to me while he gots the credit. Now, it it my boss fault, NO, it's mine because I can't convince him that this situation will not benefit both me and company in the long term. Even when I was sick at home one time, he called me to give direction to others on how to solve the problem. After 4 years, I quit and find a new job.

This is only my 2 cent.

APH

RE: Given someone else's work...

Expectation breeds more expectation.  If you start regularly putting in 50 hours a week, your boss will get used to it and begin to expect you to put in 50 hours or more a week.  If you decide to work a standard 40 or 45, then your are not meeting expectations.  If you are expected to put in over time on a regular basis, then you should be justly compensated for it (either a corresponding salary adjustment or over time pay).  Occasionally putting in a few extra hours to finish a project is part of the job; but if it becomes a continuous expectation or becomes the norm, then corresponding compensation should come along with the extra hours.

Engineers are professionals; however, that does not mean that we should be expected to donate our valuable time on a consistent basis.  

Thane

RE: Given someone else's work...

(OP)
You know what? I have a life outside of my work. I enjoy spending time with my friends and family. I also enjoy my free time and hobbies. It blows me away that people will spend 60 hours a week at work on a consistant basis. The United States is the most overworked industrialized nation on the planet. German workers get a mandatory minimum 5 weeks of vacation. I get 2.

RE: Given someone else's work...

And yet we still have a reputation for being lazy.  I can understand the "Ugly American" stereotype, but I don't get the laziness one.

Hg

RE: Given someone else's work...

True...true..

APH

RE: Given someone else's work...

1.  Work smarter - doesn't necessarily mean work hard.

2.  Enjoy your work.  You won't feel the hours passing by.  It's great to do what you enjoy and yet get paid for it.  

3.  If you are not enjoying your work - change your job or find ways and means of making your work enjoyable.  



HVAC68

RE: Given someone else's work...

Having been in this situation my whole life, going back to being a Machinist, there is one important thing for the younger guys to remember:

If you are learning, keep learning and it will pay off at this job or the next.  Perhaps as you learn to your tasks completed better your boss will realize that he does not need to keep the other guy around, that still leaves you where you are at.  My point is if they fire the other guy you may still gain nothing except even more work.  

If you are gaining knowledge you will be rewarded eventually.  As I stated earlier, I began my career as a Machinist, actually just running a saw cutting stock for the lathes.  17 years later I have worked my through CNC Programming, Production Management, R&D Management, Project management, Product Design...   Here I am today working in Engineering (without a college degree) I have hands on experience with all aspects of manufacturing (welding, programming, laser machining, quality control, design,  analysis...) and I am not the highest paid person in my department.  I get up every day and go to work with a smile, do the best I can do, learn as much as I can learn and come home feeling pretty good about myself.  17 years ago I was running a cut off saw in a third rate rats nest of a machine shop making $5.00 an hour, but by taking on everything thrown my way, showing a will to learn, making the effort to learn and achieve, in return I have been rewarded with a good career that many machinists could only dream of.  I have had the fortunate opportunity to work some large companies on some very large projects, and I love it.  Life is long, look at the big picture, appreciate where your life could be heading.

RE: Given someone else's work...

aamoroso...good advice.  

I gather from the posts that many of you work 40 hours per week for a salary in a clearly defined position where you perhaps do not get opportunities to show individuality, initiative and self-motivation, or at least it appears to be unrecognized when you do.  To remedy that requires communication with your supervisors/mentors.

The engineering profession is clearly divided into two factions of practice...licensed practice and non-licensed practice.  For those who have engineering degrees but choose to practice in a non-licensed capacity, be aware that this aspect of the profession is heading toward hourly pay scales, non-professional status, and in some cases unionization.  All are sad days for the engineering profession.

How would you feel if you physician said "OK, it's 5:00.  Time to go home.  We'll finish this heart transplant in the morning."?  No, engineering is not often "life and death", but it has an importance in society that is often forgotten by the public and even by those of us in the profession.  We provide important functions for the betterment of life and the public.  We are charged (as licensed professionals) with the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public at large in our practice of engineering.  That charge is a significant responsibility, for which we should be proud and for which we should be appropriately compensated.  If we continue to act like hourly employees on a loading dock, we'll be treated accordingly.  

Keep the standards high and meet them.  It is the only way our profession survives.  

RE: Given someone else's work...

Oh really Ron.

" For those who have engineering degrees but choose to practice in a non-licensed capacity, be aware that this aspect of the profession is heading toward hourly pay scales, non-professional status, and in some cases unionization.  All are sad days for the engineering profession."

Have you any objective evidence that this trend is the case, across the profession as a whole? Increasing unionisation seems a tad unlikely given the general trend (not that it is a bad thing, and don't kid yourself that a professional association is anything other than a union, the best union I know of is the AMA).

By the way I am non licensed and 25% of my job IS life and death, for those of you who persist in buying SUVs and won't wear seatbelts.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Given someone else's work...

My experience says; stop looking at exterior justifications for where you are now. You alone have the ability to drive your career. Sure, hard knocks come and some can be bruising, but you decide your path and timing. Take a day off and look around the country, the economy, industry. Is your career path secure?, what will it provide on a national average?, what doors will it open so choice is available down the road?. Envision what it is you want to be when you grow up, feel it. Where do you need to be in five years, forget the hassles of today. It's so easy to manage anothers expectations, because larger in the end, you can tell them to take a hike, but where does that leave you. Your needs are the hardest to manage, and require the most skill and consideration. Forget the dog, he's not your concern.

RE: Given someone else's work...

My 2 cent's worth:
If you feel you are being victimized, look for another job...be careful to not do anything to sully your reputation where you are working now. I had a worse experience in a field office; just myself and my manager. My manager did very little real work, mostly surfed porn on the internet. He embezzled, cheated on his expense account, etc....when I proved this to management, they gave him a slap on the wrist. He was forced to pay back only a small amount of the money he had embezzled. Typical office politics. Rather than let this eat me alive with bad emotions, I felt a lot better to quit, with one week's notice.

RE: Given someone else's work...

Ron,

The license exempt engineers that you claim are "nonprofessional" send us rolling down the road in cars, get us flying around in airplanes, design the ordnance that defends our nation & world and put men on the moon. I am continually amazed at the innovative products that are continuously being created by license exempt engineers in industry. I've worked in both industry and consulting. The licensed engineers that I've met in consulting are no more "professional" than the license exempt engineers that I've met in industry.

nodiggity,

I'd give them a year or two and see if they properly reward you for your efforts. If they do, stay where you are. If they don't, then find another employer who does reward good work.

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