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salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!
2

salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
i interviewed with an aerospace engineering company a couple of weeks ago, at the time they asked for my salary info and i didn't give it out. the HR recruiter said it would be ok because they based the offers on your ability and work experience. during the interview with the program manager it was evident that they were going to make me an offer. last week the HR told me they were going to make me an offer but were still working on the numbers.
i got a voice mail from the HR recruiter today asking for my most recent salary info. can someone please let me know what a proper response should be?

everyone i talk recommended that i dont' accept anything less than 75K - 85K, and i'm currently way below that. i have two more interviews with different companies this week.

thanks!

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

2
Tell him you'll send him yours if he'll send you his.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

If you are not in dire straights to find a new job, there is no harm is asking for the $75-85k range.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

You can ask for your desired rate, but that is not the same as your most recent salary info.  Don't get caught up in a lie.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

I wasn't advocating lying, sorry if that came across that way.  You can give them your salary (don't forget overtime if that applies) and still request a higher salary.  Just remember that a 20% increase is considered good.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
i think i'll jsut tell him that he told me my salary history was not required and i dont' feel comfortable giving that information out.  what if i don't accept the offer?  then i'd have given out private info...

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

It is obvious that they want to know your existing salary so they can increase it just enough to make it worth the switch. You are quite within your right to (politely) point out that, as a matter of principle, the salary you are currently receiving should have no bearing on what they should be willing to offer you and then let them know what you are prepared to accept. You could also let them know that other companies are not asking (note present, not past, tense) for that information (assuming the're not), which lets them know that other companies are interested in you.

You have a job which pays the bills (presumably) & therefor should not be have to accept the first thing that comes along.

& all the best.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
thanks all for the advices... i just got back with the HR person and here is what happened...

reminded him that we had discussed this issue before and he told me the info would not be required. told him it's personal info and i dont' feel comfortable giving it out.

after a moment of silence he then reminds me they are requiring previous paystub *ONCE* you start working at the company (it's a major aerospace company).  

i asked if that was a new policy and reiterated me being uncomfortable about disclosing it.  i then asked him what is the budget alloted for this position.  he said he could not answer that but gave me a range and told me the approximate numer they are thinking about offering me.  the number was approx 60K...

i then reminded him that accoridng to my supervisor i'm supposed to get a promotion that would take my salary above 60K, and that cost of living around his company is wayyy higher than my current location.

finally he asked me what's my expectation and i said based on my research i found the range to be 75-80K and he said he would go back and discuss it and get back to me.

60K is just low-balling me...

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

You handled that well, I think. Of course, you telling him 75-80 really means 75 to him!

I always find it worth setting what I would actually settle for before they start talking numbers, otherwise it is too easy to get caught up in the excitement of a new job without thinking it through.



Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
well, i really enjoyed my interview with managers.  it was enjoyable becaue i felt they were being straightforward and honest with me.  there was one guy who i enjoyed talking to but we mutualy agreed that he had no suitable positions for me.  bottom line is i felt i like i would enjoy working for/with these people... but after this HR negotiation round 1 i'm havign 2nd thoughts...  the fact that he told me they require new employees to submit old paystub tells me he's not being honest with me...  there goes the trust factor already..

i've got two more interviews friday and i hope they turn out better than this one...  it's too bad because i was looking forwad to working for this first company

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Don't be too overhelmed by the interviewers. The fellow I thought as a Gentleman during my interview proved to be the worst boss, subsequently.

If you agree for a lower salary because the company is good or the boss is good and etc. you will start bothering from the day one, when you know somebody equal to you draws a better salary.

It is a common practice in India asking for salary details(with total break up) and we do give those details. We don't have any problems so far. Is this problem subjective?

Regards,

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

No, I agree with the original poster. They should make you an offer relative to the pay of others in the same organisation, not relative to what you are currently paid.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

You should get based on what the organisation offers to similar candidates already working there.  If they offer less, then you will never be satisfied.  If they offer more, then it will "rock the boat" and the existing employees may not be satisifed.

Sometimes, one may feel that he/she's worth more than what an employer can offer.  Then he/she does't take the offer.

I agree with quark - It's very common in some parts of the world to ask what your salary is - may not be acceptable in many other parts of the world, and may even be treated as infringement of privacy.  

HVAC68

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

In a perfect world, a department manager and the HR types should try to fit your experience in consideration with people already on board - along with the availability of people and their need.

Do not stretch your income on an application.  They can find this information out.  One can and should be fired for lying on an application.

John

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
well i have no intention of lying about my income.  what i told the recruiter was correct (i've been told i will get a promotion soon and that will take my current salary higher than his inital offer).  i just didn't appreciate the recruiter's tactic.  do they get an incentive for low-balling candidates?  i gotta think they get bonus for saving the dept. cost.  

aerospace is a funny industry, when the engineers are in high demand the companes will throw out money at everyone trying to get bodies into the company and when the projects are done they say bye to them.  

i've been told by one of the managers during the interview that they are in the process of ramping up their workforce, and they have a lot of positions to fill, so i guess we'll just see what happens.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Major aerospace companies have certain guidelines they now have to follow. Some guidlines are directed from government and some from military. When they have big contracts from either agency, their guidlines trickle down thru the company to the employees. So, the hiring process is difficult, especially with salary, because certain $$ are alloted per dept/employee from programs. It is very confusing and IMO sucks. As you know, it can take at least a month to go thru the hiring process at big aerospace companies.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP0.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

I have NEVER been asked to provide a past paystub when starting a new job.  I'm not sure that it is even legal.

Continue to point out that what you make now is not their concern.  It may have been a bit of a misteak to have given them the 75K figure, but since they have invited you back for a second round after hearing that number it means that they do not consider it unreasonable.  Try to avoid any further discussion until after an offer is made, this gives you an upper hand.

Arm yourself with salary information from the industry, and cost of living in the new area.

Since it appears that you will be moving you should also negotiate moving expenses into the deal.

Know your real bottom line, and be prepared to say "no thanks" if they won't go there.

Get EVERYTHING in writing.  If they are unwilling to do so then you need to write it down in a letter to them.  "I am writing to confirm our discussions of ....."

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

You can try www.salary.com to get an idea of what the min/med/max salary would be for your job classification.

TTFN

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
i've browsed thru salary.com but the average they have does not match the numbers i am getting from other people, so i am very hesistant to go by their numbers.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

If they ask me for my salary info I usually politely tell them I prefer that they make an offer first before discussing my current salary.  Sometimes it can make for an uncomfortable moment in the interview, and maybe some effort on their part to coax it out of me, but I try to stand firm and I've never felt it made a negative impact (worked on last two jobs).

If an interviewer asks me how much I expect to make for the job I usually say something like "I'm sure you will come up with a suitable figure based on my experience and the job requirements."  Like above, they may prod some more, so I might ask them if they're prepared to make me an offer.  I say it in a light way (if you know what I mean) not to seem cold or too businesslike.  Since they're usually not at the offer point (they always seem to ask this early on) they usually just move on to the next question.

The thing is you have to make the hiring manager want you first.  If you talk money too early they may eliminate you based on their bottom line, or they may be encouraged to lowball you.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

If they ask what your salary is , or other details of your current postion, I would be completely honest. Obviously, if you were satisfied in your current postion, you would not be looking. Employers generally know what the going salary range is for a particular job. However, I would always politely refuse to dicuss or negotiate salary with anyone except the person who would decide salary. If you are negotiating through an intermediary, you are at a considerably weaker postion and will not fare as well as you would one on one.If the discussion turned to salary, I would ask if they would be making the salary descion. If not i explained that I did not want to dicuss salary with any one not deciding salary. Generally, I would then meet the Sr. VP or President. Sometimes I got a good offer, sometimes I didn't, but I always made an impression.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
well, it seems like nowadays every company is demanding your salary history...  the first company i negotiated with came back with a really weak offer, which I will turn down.  the HR just seem so shady...  he made me an offer without specify my actual title or job duties.  his voice was kind of shaky and he sounded kind of scare (my impression).

2nd company's interview went really well, the manager wants to hire me as a manager based on my resume and expereince and disclosed to me the salary range for an entry level executive.  talked to their HR afterwards, HR tried to hint that i didn't have the experience to be a manager without being at the interview (i was told beforehand i'm being interviewed for the manager position).  HR then wanted to negotiate but i let them know i already know the salary range so HR wasn't very happy.  Manager told me there would be relocation cost, tuition reimbursement, etc.  HR told me they are not usually available and would have to figure into the overall compensation package.  

later on that day i was told by HR the manager wants to make me an offer (big surprise).  the catch is they want to bring me in as an engineer first and decide later on if they want to promote to manager.  sounds like ol' bait and switch to me...  i think HR got upset becuz they lost negotiation leverage and this would be a way to get their leverage back...

i've just about had enough of dealing with HR... salary negotiation wouldn't be this diffcult and dishonest if HR wasn't involved....  as a younger engineer, i am thinking why stay in the industry if this is what i have to look forward to?  both of these companies are major aerospace corporations.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

(OP)
i still like my job and the aerospace projects that are out there, i've just lost faith in the system.  i'm tired of constantly having to fight the system for what's right...

i'm only 30 years and i should not feel this way about my profession..  any older engineers feel the sameway?  i have a very low tolerance for BS and i don't think that will get me far in the industry in this day and age.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Well, the HR guy is probably doing what he is paid for !!!  Get guys at dirt cheap salaries.  

If you are confident about yourself, don't get disheartened with what an HR guy negotiates with you.  I am not taking away anything from the HR guy - he's probably just doing his job.

Stick to your guns, if you know you are worth that and if you also know that they need you badly.

HVAC68

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Present salary is part of the equation for making an offer. One lousy company I worked for automatically offered less; most offer more. Give them the present salary.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Sure present salary is part of the equation, but make them offer first without knowing your salary and you are in a better negotiating position.  Most companies will offer more, but it may not be near what they were willing to offer or would've offered strictly based on experience and market demand had they not known your current salary and actually done the research they are paid to do.

There's no reason they can't make an offer without knowing your salary, but if it becomes a big sticking point and you really like the job, then you may want to give it to them and see what happens.  You should have an idea of what you want going into the interview and if they meet your requirements, then good, if not then you can start negotiating.  

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

1-Don't give them your actual salary. It concerns to you only, it doesn't concern to them;
2-Let them propose first. They now how much they are willing to pay for your work;
3-If that goes below your range, then give them your range, but as said in previous threads, if you say 75K-85K, most probably they will propose to you 75 or 76;
4-If all the package is worthy, make a counter proposal in the following terms: you accept their proposal during the probation period (3/6 months) and then you get an extra raise of around 10%. This will tell you how much they want you. If they want you ,they will accept.
5-And wait. If you are not desperate for the job, wait. They will go to you.

PR

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

If they have your SSN to facilitate background checks, they may have your salary information already at hand.

Regards,

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

I suppose the government or some government contractors may need the SSN for background security checks, but I've told every potential employer that has asked me for my SSN that I'll give it to them if they hire me and when I'm filling out my employment paperwork.

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

PauloRibeiro, (4) won't work. You can have as many bits of paper signed by anybody in the company. Once you walk in the door you have lost your bargaining power.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

From a hiring manager's perespective;  knowing a candidate's current salary will benefit ME in negotiations if I decide to make an offer.  I do not, however, ask for this info.  My company does require a salary request from the candidate when we conduct an interview, but again, this benefits ME, not the candidate.

Bear in mind that salary negotiations are somewhat like playing poker,  and when you provide more info the new company,  tyou benefit THEM, and may hurt yourself.  
The company knows what the typical range is for the position you're seeking.  They will not overpay you;  but when you give up your current salary info, there is a chance they will underpay you!

Last:  I disagree with Greg in his previous response to Paulo;  getting a written offer of a salary increase in 6-months would be very worthwhile.  If the company were to renige later, that should tell you something about your new company......

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

I don't think that there should be a problem telling a prospective employer what you are making or made previously.  No matter what offer they come back with, you can still reject the offer and requrest an increase if you think you're worth it.  

I went for an interview several weeks ago after loosing my job.  One of the questions the HR person asked me was what the salary range was that I was looking for.  I was hesitant to answer for fear of placing myself outside of the range they would offer.  So I simply told them what I was making on my last job.  They came back with an offer that bettered my last salary and I'm very happy.  

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

The best quote i've ever heard. And its true...

"You don't get what you deserve.  You get what you negotiate."

RE: salary negotiation advice needed ASAP!!!

Recruitment is the best time to sort out your salary package.
Once you are in the company you will struggle to get a fair increase.

With some companies, the longer you are with them the further behind the industry benchmark you drop.

Of course, you are weakest when you have no job or when you are starting out, but if you have a job, it is your strength. It is the difference between a buyers and a sellers market.

Incidentally, if they hire you on at an engineer level and expect to prove you before they promote you, you need to think very carefully. This is not a good start. They want you to risk a secure job against a speculation that they may promote you. What if they decide not to? In all probability you will do the job you interviewed for without the salary and without the authority to do it well. Around about the end of the trial period you are surplus as HR will have found another recruit.

Once you have the job, then you are at their mercy until you hav been there long enough that if you leave they have the cost of finding a replacement and the probability that the entry level salary will be higher than they are paying you.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

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