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Wealthy Engineers
8

Wealthy Engineers

Wealthy Engineers

(OP)
I haven't met many rich engineers. Principals at engineering firms are typically well paid, but that is about the extent of it. Why?

Anyone knows a rich engineer and how she/he got there?
The way I see it:
i). Open up own practice;
ii). Rise up through the ranks of an established firm, ending up with the company's shares.
iii). Get an MBA and go work for a venture capitalist firm.
vi). Get a PhD in Applied Physics/Math and go work for a hedge fund.
v). Marry rich.
iv). Patent an idea, and see item i).
iiv). Inherit estate, win money or read Trump's "How To Get Rich" book ok...maybe that wouldn't help you  :)

I am very scared of turning 40 one day and realizing that all I am worth is a meager $75,000. Very scared...

RE: Wealthy Engineers

It ain't about the money.  You need to do something you enjoy, otherwise, it's only voluntary servitude.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I agree with ornerynorsk.  From your list, your best bets are v. and iiv.  As for myself, I'm already married (poor), so the lottery looks like the best bet.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

3
Please define "rich."

Many engineers make over $2M in a lifetime, or more.  And a large number of engineers have net worth in excess of $1M by the time they're 50.

You can certainly be more than comfortable if you practice any modicum of frugality.  The rules are absurdly simple:
> Save before anything else
> Live within your means
> Do not accumulate debt
> Buy a house as soon as practical

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

(OP)
Let me define "rich":
I am of course using term "rich" loosely here. It's commonly accepted that one is truly rich when he/she no longer works for income.

But I am talking about working rich. For the sake of discussion, say over $120,000 annually.
I know, I know it's hardly considered wealthy, but it's in 5% of the highest paid americans.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Ha! I am turning 60 and don't make near that much. You will never get rich as long as you are an employee. If you are just starting out, you are likely to be laid off a number of times, move several times and use up your savings, and eventually stop getting raises while new people are hired at more money. It's just the nature of the business. Beats pushing hamburgers. To work for yourself you need an opportunity, lots of guts, the ability to sell yourself, and the ability to get jobs done soon and at low cost. There is still no guaranty that you will make money though. Those of us who are lacking in all those attributes end up working for someone else.

It is all about living within your means, as IRstuff says, and finding a balance between work and your private life. Money can be low on the list of things that really matter.

Remember: when you get your first million, once you spend the first dollar you are no longer a millionaire.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

It all depends on how much you're willing to put in to get that salary.  

At most aerospace companies, $100K is midrange for senior engineers, managers and program managers:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/
swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=126&statecode=
CA&state=California&metro=Orange+County&city=&geo=
Orange+County%2C+CA&jobtitle=Aerospace+Engineer+V&search=
&narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=
EN01&r=salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=
EN04100068

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/
swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=126&statecode=
CA&state=California&metro=Orange+County&city=&geo=
Orange+County%2C+CA&jobtitle=Engineering+Manager&search=
&narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=
EN01&r=salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=
EN04100037

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

At our company 100,000 per year is fairly normal for a senior engineer, with say 10-15 years experience. I know probably a dozen people either here or at other companies, that are individual contributers, still engineers and not managers, that meet your 120K criteria.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Lest you think I stacked the deck, this one is for senior applications engineers:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/
swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=126&statecode=
CA&state=California&metro=Orange+County&city=&geo=
Orange+County%2C+CA&jobtitle=Applications+Engineer+V&search=
&narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=EN01&r=
salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=EN04100101

I've not done an exhaustive study, but the same job in Houston seems to be comparable in salary:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/
swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=46&statecode=
TX&state=Texas&metro=Dallas&city=&geo=
Dallas%2C+TX&jobtitle=Applications+Engineer+V&search=
&narrowdesc=Engineering&narrowcode=EN01&r=
salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=
EN04100101

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Pavlik,

It has been my experience the people that make alot of money are the ones that....

(a) Self employ themselves
(b) manufacturer a product or provide a service that no one else wants to!

There are alot of engineers,doctors, and lawyers in my town, but the guys that are making out like bandits are the owners of the sewage removal companies, and the top soil suppliers....go figure...

My advice; find a widget and mass produce the damn thing.

Regards,
TULUM

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Pavlik
There are  more wealthy people with engineering degrees ( or taining ) than there are wealthy engineers.  They don't get rich working for others and  they don't work as engineers.
Just because someone has an engineering degree doesn't mean there an engineer.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I have a friend who is an ME, is 42, does design engineering and not managing, and makes $100k/year+. And he works in industry, so he bears no liability if his designs fail and cause injury or property damage. I think that he has it pretty good.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

You will not get "rich" working for others. If you do, you got lucky. Now by rich, I assume you mean really rich (not merely making 200k). The only way to make this happen is to work for yourself. The ideal way is to design a product that everyone needs (not easy) and manufacture and sell it. I have worked in product mfg and consulting, mfging offers way more possibilities when it comes to profits. This is because your selling a product and not a service. The service industry is limited to the man hours and the time in a day. The number of products you can sell is not limited by the hours in a day and you can make money on it, theorhetically, for the rest of your life.
I like the idea of working for myself, not to get rich, but to be my own boss and have more control over my future.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

If you assume that the only way you can be well-off is by working for yourself, then you're nearly guaranteed a 90% 1st-yr business failure rate and designing yourself into a position where there are no other avenues to achieve your desired goals.  

If you're a half-way decent engineer, there's no guarantee that you'll be any good as a business manager.  

There are lots of people who make less than $50K/yr and end up millionaires.  

How many of you are saving 10% of your gross salary every year?

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

The key to being rich is making your money work for you not the other way around. My best advice is look into real estate.   Also you have to define "RICH". Is rich for you making 200k but spending 180k per year? or is it making 100k / year but having a net worth of 1mil? These are the questions you have to answer and on this path you will find the secrets to wealth.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I think the figure of $120K is a US figure.  This can be a huge sum of money in many other parts of the world where the cost of living is much lower and hence the savings potential is much higher.

The best way to feel rich is to live a simple life, (doesn't mean cheap), a healthy life, a life in which you give more than you take from others, help the needy (there are so many under-privileged) and derive satisfaction out of it.

Probably, I have deviated from the main topic, but couldn't resist writing this.

Some of the worlds' famous millionaires do just that.

As somebody pointed out earlier, livng within your means and saving enough can make you rich (financially).

HVAC68

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Well, let's take pavlik's goals on face value. (I disagree with them, but hey).

He wants to earn 120k, US $, in 2005 COLA

Here's what you do.

1) Don't use a mortgage to buy a house.

2) Live in cheap rented accomodation until you can buy a sensible house without a mortgage

3) Never buy a new car

4) Burn all your credit cards (or pay them off before interest is due)

5) Invest every spare cent

6) never take out a loan unles the interest is a business expense.

7) Only work for reputable firms, have a career plan

(5) is a bit of a trick. Choosing what to invest in is a hard thing to decide. I've done well out of the stockmarket, as a long term investor, but many people lose their shirts, as daytraders.

By following those rules I am ahead of pavlik's target, at the grand old age of 45.

On the other hand, I drive a POS car, and I don't have a nice yacht. And I /really/ want a nice yacht.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Also,
- Marry someone with a similar financial plan or goals, or at least make sure you understand and accept theirs.
- Invest in yourself to increase you earning potential, education, licensure, professional affiliations, etc.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Does "rich" have to be defined in terms of money? At my old age I am taking drum lessons and just bought a nice set. I have also learned to fly. I can't afford to go to Europe, but I can afford to get in the car on the weekend and drive 2 or 3 hours to see some interesting things.

Now, if I were making $100k and working 80 hours a week, I couldn't do any of that, and I would not feel very rich.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Pavlik, you are already on your way by asking "how?" and trying to develop a plan.  I think that too many people just expect they will get a job and then one day be rich. Then 20yrs later they wonder why they can't make ends meet on 2 to 3x the median income.  

Beware that "rich" is a moving target.  Ask someone who makes 20K, 40k, 100k, 1mil what it takes to be comfortable and all way claim they need still need more than they have.

Saving (combined with compounding) is the most important aspect to financial security (doesn't sound as good as rich, does it?).  It is so easy to understand and yet so difficult to do.  It does get easier (perhaps even addictive) once your account is earning dividends greater than what most people are "saving" outright.   

And a few tired cliches that are timeless in their truth:
-The secret to happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have.
-He who dies with the most toys, still dies.
-Noone on his death bed says, "I wish I had spent more time in the office"

www.probasci.com -
Implantable FEA for medical device manufacturers

RE: Wealthy Engineers

rats!! there are still 5E7 people richer than I

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Rich sometimes is a state of mind.

I consider myself rich in:
- ideas for bettering myself and my community;
- potential for helping others not as experienced as me;
- concepts for civil aviation improvements not evident to pilots, passengers, educators, and lawmakers. (I have received a letter of interest from a charitable trust to fund the beginnings of the National Airline Academy, a concept 10 years old and long overdue.)

I have so-called rich ($$$) relatives living and working in NYC, a place I wouldn't chose to live in, even though I was born and raised there. We haven't seen the end of terrorism there yet.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

We all make a pretty good living with what we do but we won't retire wealthy. Over the years, I've always kept up with salary norms but it was always eaten up with the nice home, 2.5 kids, station wagon, dog and a stay at home wife when the kids were growing up.  The last part was worth every penny of the second salary.  Even going out on your own does not guarantee wealth at the end of the day and oft times too much time is spent at work at the neglect of other things.

I always say I'm working on my 2nd million because I gave up on the 1st !

Haggis

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Look, it is not the gross salary, or whether you're self-employed. It comes down to three variables. First, do you have savings and assets that will get you thru latter part of life. Second, have you set up investments that will pay for your lifestyle changes-say you want to take 2 yrs off and travel. For example if you can invent a product, or write books, or own rental commerical properties then you'll have cash flow coming in to finance your travels. And thirdly have you reached enough technical and credential stage, that you can obtain employment within a short period, should you miss the office politics.

So Wealthy means ability to live off of your investments or cash flows during your travels, have assets that are untouched for retiremnet, and have the skills to instantly be hired. So Plan for your lifestyle in your own method.

A Member of
www.civilvillage.com

RE: Wealthy Engineers

It's interesting that so many of you have very negative outlooks on this subject, yet would have no difficulty in convincing yourself that there was a solution had this been an engineering problem.  

As such, it's relatively benign engineering problem, given that you normally have nearly 45 yrs to accomplish the end result and there are no technological show-stoppers.  Almost all of you are earning at least 2x to 3x the median salary.  You're more intelligent than the average person and yet you expect to do no better.

If you're convinced that you'll fail, then the end result is a foregone conclusion.  

Start engineering your futures.  Plan the work and work the plan.

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Rich, to me, is being satisfied. There is a song about this.
I am of the personality that I will never be satisfied until I don't have to answer to a boss everyday (just clients). I dont care about making millions.
All this talk about investing and such to make money is a good idea, if you want to be a rich old cogger. I am of the abnormal on this. I save and invest a little but most of my funds are spent to live life now, not planning on living life when I retire. Sure, maybe latter I will be living from social security check to social security check but when I am 65 years old how many of the fun things I want to do now will I want to do when I am 65?

I wish I had the personality to be content working for someone else the rest of my life but I just have not been able to adjust my personality to be satisfied with this. I envy those that can.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Being rich is not how much you earn, it's how much you have saved.  

My father was an engineer and retired early a multimillionare, working for the same company his entire career and retiring as the engineering manager.  Good investing and common sense allows him and my mother to spend a couple months each winter in FL, travel the world and enjoy their life, as well as spoil the grandkids.  That to me is being rich.

Oh, by the way, we never went without while growing up and had a very comfortable life so their savings plan did not prevent us from enjoying life.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

For an engineer, especially a civil engineer starting out or in early career who wants to work in extra income and avoid the pitfalls of first year start-up attrition he should consider testing the water.  

What I mean and what I have done is get licensed, taken on small engneering jobs and designs, build up a good rep with contractors, architects, developers while I worked full time.

I needed liability insurance or O and E, but you can get a small scale policy for around $2500 and pay that off in two shop drawings.  Which brings me to another thing.  Engineers should bill more and bill frequently.  Do your billings every other week and send out invoices every 30 days.  Then you will know if you are working with a payer or a deadbeat.  You can make say 30K a year for your self plus your salary and this money you can bank for that income you will need down the road if you want to completely strike out on your own.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

A few great books on the topic of becoming rich are:

1)    The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley
2)    The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason
3)    The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey

The first is a study of who the rich are in America and how they got there.  The other two are very inspirational on getting out of debt and living on less than you make.  They have nothing with being an engineer.  Just do something that you are passionate about, stay out of debt and the money will follow.  

RE: Wealthy Engineers

As one more engineer who's made it by age 40, I agree with IRstuff's posts.

1. Read "The Millionaire Next Door".  It's darn near a textbook for achieving financial independence.

2. Research, invest and manage your own money (at least until you can afford to pay for top-notch financial advice.  Our current manager gets a percentage of our net gains, not the gross).  Nobody else cares as much about your money than you do.

3. Don't buy toys you don't need and won't use.  Analyze every purchase to determine: will I get my money's worth from this?  E.g. If you don't go boating very often, don't buy a boat (rent one instead for the occasional vacation).  I love skiing, and thus own my own equipment - but it was a value decision on my part.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

There is an implied assumption that becoming rich is a route to happiness. Look at all the rich and famous and miserable. Listen to some of the lyrics of songwriting millionaires. "I have it all and feel like nothing", a common theme.
Did you ever take high school or college classes on how to be happy. It's a challenge and worth thinking about.
Happiness first, wealth second, and don't marry arm candy -it'll rot your happiness and your wallet.

kch

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Hmm.  Higgler, you just changed the optimization parameters drastically.

However, from experience, money may not buy happiness, but it makes the pursuit of happiness much easier.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Maybe, maybe not...

I think, not speaking from personal experience, that wealth allows you to BUY more things, but there's less satisfaction in them, because, deep down, you know that you really didn't work for it.

Trump mab be a good example of that.  His penthouse on "The Apprentice" is loaded with "stuff," that's there because they're "the best."  It's unclear whether Trump gets any real happiness or real enjoyment out of those things.  And he's certainly diving into the deep end again as far as marriage is concerned.  Having to divine whether someone loves you for you or your money might make me unhappy.

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

And with all his fame and money, Elvis had to pay people to be his friends.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Money is not everything in life, but does having money or being wealthy ever hurt ?  You can do a few things without money, but may be do a lot more with money.

HVAC68

RE: Wealthy Engineers

It's amusing, possibly ironic, that a culture with proverbs such as "too much of a good thing is bad," and "love of money is the root of all evil," would be still so enamored with excessive amounts of money.

Then, again, "Moderation in all things is best, but it's pretty hard to get excited about it." attributed to Mason Cooley: http://www.bartleby.com/66/3/13603.html

I don't think anyone is suggesting a life of pauperism.  The problem is that many people have trouble determining when "enough" becomes "too much."

There have recently been some articles about motherhood on msn.com and how even that relatively pristine pursuit has become incredibly burdensome, what with baby masseuses and Ivy-League pre-school preps.

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

My favorite boss of all time taught me, "Life is too short to be unhappy".

From day one, I invested 10% of gross pay for retirement and enjoyed the rest.  I'm not going to be rich, but I'll have >$1MM by mid-50's.  I'm happy now and will be when I retire!

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I'm a rich poor man...as I know quite a few monetarily wealthy miserable people.

Enjoy the life you have with what you have and don't forget to live it instead of spending all your time always trying obtain something else.

Brian
www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

IRstuff,

The corrrect translation of the koine greek you quote is "money is A root of all evil"...not THE...which makes a big difference...

:)

Brian
www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

waskillywabbit,
I'm not so familiar with the Greek, but the translation I have certainly states "the love of money is...", and not just "money is...", which is where a big difference lies.  IRStuff was correct in this aspect at least.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I should have copied the entire quote...what I meant was

"the love of money is A root of all evil" not "the love of money is THE root of all evil"

You get the idea...

Much of our English translations leave much to be desired when compared to the original Greek texts.

I hate not being able to edit these posts.  

Brian
www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

I know one wealthy engineer, he got that way by working 16 hour days, seven days a week, then hiring others to work for him and do the same.

What a life, though!  Maybe $10 million in the bank but spends every waking hour writing specs and drawing systems....

Not for me.  I make a really nice chunk of money but by the time I pay all my ex-wives I have take-home pay that's about equivalent to the folks who stuff the tacos and burritos.  I know it's possible to have a happy and peaceful existence with little money and material things...

Ahhh....  

Old Dave

RE: Wealthy Engineers

1 Timothy 6:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

   10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20timothy%206:10;&version=48;

A few other versions have the same translation.  Obviously, there are other interpretations of that passage, but they're watered down, in my opinion.

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

If you want to get rich, don't be an engineer..:).

APH

RE: Wealthy Engineers

"10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,"

NRSV
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=1+Timothy+6:6-19&vnum=yes&version=nrsv

NIV
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1Timothy+6:6-19

Greek
I'd post it for you to but then you'd just have to take my word for it...but the article "the" is clearly not there before the word "root" thus the correct article is "a"...one little article, lots of difference.

While I realize that the KJV/NKJV are beloved translations, they are quite often flawed in translation of the original Greek text, as this is but ONE of the instances...being able to read/translate both Hebrew and Greek has its advantages for something I guess.

Now what was this post about again?


Brian
www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Pavlik, based upon your original post I suspect that you consider your income to be a measure of your professional success. Is that correct? If it is, then that is a poor metric for measuring success, in my opinion. There are many professionals that earn a higher average salary than most engineers can ever hope to make during their lifetimes. A good example of this might be a Wall Street stock analyst, or a well known movie actor. I wouldn't consider such a person to be any more of a success than an engineer simply because they make much more money. Some of these people can excel in their chosen professions, but be miserable failures as human beings. You state that you are afraid of turning 40 one day to find that you are only worth $75,000 to an employer. Well, that is the reality for MANY engineers out there today. I personally know engineers who are close to retirement age who have never made that kind of money. I myself have never made that salary, and I am over 40.

Success is self-defined. This is true regardless of what anyone else tells you to the contrary. It is NOT an absolute. It is for you to decide, based upon what you believe constitutes a successful career goal, on whether or not you have attained it.

Maui

RE: Wealthy Engineers

The lack of a indefinite article in Greek seems to be a continual source of controversy in translation and requires interpretation of the context and intent of the writer.

TTFN

RE: Wealthy Engineers

Maui-

I agree. I don't know any engineers that make that kind of money. In this part of the country I have seen jobs advertised for 55k and I know of some that pay far less than that. The first thing head hunters want to know is how much you are getting and what year you graduated high school. That tells you that employers are looking to pay as little as they can.

Maybe in California you can get a lot more money, but what do you pay for a house- at least 250k? Mine is worth 120k and is 20 minutes from work.

Making lots of money may come with a price.

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