Use of Seals on drawings
Use of Seals on drawings
(OP)
I applied for a NY seal and was given temporary permission to practice but no seal. During this short 3 month span I did some design work for my employer. After this work was completed a letter from the NY board revoked my seal until I had more documentation of my experience. I came to find out several of my referances did not follow the instructions and were thus tossed out. My employer now wants me to seal the drawings with a MI seal and send them to NY. The owner is o.k. with this. Does this violate any laws, ethics, or other professional creed? Does this violate NY law? Thanks






RE: Use of Seals on drawings
In fact, they may see it as a non-licensed person practicing engineering in NY without a license. Could create some problems for you. The fact that they gave you a temporary permit/license should help in that you didn't do anything unethical.
I would call the NY engineering board for some advice as to how to proceed. Sounds like you CAN get comity ...just need the proper references to push it through the process.
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
It sounds like your question comes down to: If I'm not currently licensed, can I now seal work that I did when I was formerly licensed? As a general rule, I would expect the answer is no- because you shouldn't post-date the seal to some past perior OR be sealing stuff currently with no license.
I, too, would suggest contacting the state engineering board. See, for example, if you can immediately get a renewal of the temporary license?
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
Thanks,
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
Of course it does violate the laws of NY. You are not licensed in NY. You may get the project approved by whomever, but you are committing a felony by practicing engineering without a license. There are no exemptions for federal projects. In most other states, this is only a misdemeanor crime.
The person accepting your MI PE license does not have the authority to permit you to practice engineering in NY. That is up to the State of NY and is a separate matter. Sure your project has been approved, but you are breaking the law. It's the same as speeding down the street when no cop is present. However, unlike the speeder, you are leaving evidence - your MI PE license.
If someone gets mad at you for whatever, they can report you to the State of NY. You should follow up and get the NY P.E.
Here are relevant passages of NY laws:
"Any use of the title "Professional Engineer" or provision of professional engineering services within New York State requires licensure, except in certain "exempt" settings. These settings are detailed in Section 7208 of the Education Law."
"§7202. Practice of engineering and use of title "professional engineer". Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title "professional engineer"."
http://www.op.nysed.gov/article145.htm#7208
1. In New York State, who can practice professional engineering?
Section 7202 of the New York State Education Law states that, "Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title 'professional engineer'...." A "person licensed" is an individual that has qualified by education, experience and examination and has been issued a New York State professional engineering license by the State Education Department.
"11. What are the consequences of someone engaging in unlicensed or unauthorized practice?
The laws of the State are clear in regard to unauthorized practice. Section 6512.1 of the Education Law makes it a class E felony for anyone not authorized to practice who practices or offers to practice or holds himself out as being able to practice professional engineering. Section 6509 defines professional misconduct as, among other things, permitting, aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to perform activities requiring a license; and, section 6512.2 makes it a class E felony for anyone, including a public official, to knowingly aid or abet three or more unlicensed persons practice a profession requiring a license."
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
Perhaps speak to a lawyer before doing anything more. NY state will probably say they have jurisdiction and the feds probably don't care. You will probably end up in court if you seal with MI seal. I wish it was more cut and dry.
To my knowledge, Canada also has this same black hole with regards to engineering done on Federal projects and Industry Canada related works. Federal employees have exemption though.
VOD
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
Another issue that is unfortunately also very vague is what you ought to do to correct problems like that. Suppose I design a NY building, with no NY seal, and the building is built before the problem is uncovered. How is the situation to be rectified? Typically, the engineering rules just don't address the situation at all. You can't get the engineering seal there if you've already been practicing without a license. A currently registered NY PE can't step in and seal everything because it wasn't done under his/her supervision (although in reality, some form of this option would be persued).
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
I would call NY board and check with them. A phone call may save you lots of unnecessary troubles.
Regards,
Lutfi
www.cdeco.com
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
I don't understand why NY wouldn't give you a certificate of authorization. In NY, engineering firms can no longer incorporate but this has been in effect, I would guess, for at least 30 years. To be an incorporated engineering firm, a company would need to buy a grandfathered license. However, the corporate license isn't a substitute for an individual PE. Otherwise, a firm registers as LLC or LLP. I know of firms in which some of the officers/partners are not PE's.
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
FYI, it has been about 70 years that incs are no longer allowed to be formed in NY for engineering. Also, for an LLC (PLLC) formed in NY, all members must be licensed.
RE: Use of Seals on drawings
The following is from a letter I received from the State Education Department of the State of New York.
"The law requires that this Certificate of Authorization may only be issued to business entities that are already authorized pursuant to other laws of the State to provide professional engineering services. These business entities are: (1), Domestic or foreign professional services corporations formed pursuant to articles 15 and 15-A of the State Business Corporation Law; (2), Domestic and foreign professional service limited liability companies formed pursuant to the State Limited Liability Company law; (3), partnerships, limited liability partnerships, ans new York registered foreign limited liability partnerships formed pursuant to the State partnership Law. (4) joint enterprises specified in subdivision four of section seventy-two hundred nine of the State Education Law; and, (5) general business corporations authorized to provide professional engineering services pursuant to subdivision six of section seventy-two hundred nine of the State Education Law.
Any other type of business entity is not authorized to provide professional engineering services and may not obtain a certificate of authorization."
I've spoken to the NY Division of Professional Licensing Services. They told (and wrote) me that my corporation was not eligible for a certificate of authorization. My S-Corp has three owners, one of whom is not a professional engineer and one of who is a registered NYS engineer. Please tell me more about the firms you know that have certificates but all officers/partners are not P.E.'s.