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revision cloud
10

revision cloud

revision cloud

(OP)
In the SW drawings, I want to show clouds around any revisions that I make. Is there such a thing and what wher is it located?. In autocad there I used "revcloud". The e-drawings also show clouds.

RE: revision cloud

As far as I know SW does not have clouds for the Revision module, it uses only "recognized" standards.
Clouds are normally only used for notes or when "red-lining" a drawing and adding comments.

RE: revision cloud

Heckler (Mechanical)
I not sure adding "clouds" on your print is a good idea from a document control stand point.  Typically drawing changes are listed on the ECN in a 'was/is' format and the ecn number is called out on the print.  That way the loop is closed.  I remember being at a company that did all their design work on the board and they listed all the changes in the rev control box....it got a little sluttered after rev C.  That's my two cents......

Best Regards,

Heckler

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups" John Kenneth Galbraith

RE: revision cloud

Our company places the revision letter in parentheses next to all dims that have changed.  Works for us.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: revision cloud

2
The less "stuff" on the dwg the better. You only need to state what has changes in the rev block and EO. There is not a need to show where the change is. That is what the zone letters/numbers on the sheet edge are for.

RE: revision cloud

I agree with you ctopher.

We don't describe changes in the rev block, that history is entered into our MRP system that handles the ECOs.  Most of our drawings are on A and B sizes, not many zone identifiers there.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: revision cloud

The lack of a rev cloud is unfortunate. It has been used in our industry for decades in certain cases and is taken for granted by AutoCad users. I was able to akwardly emulate in SW using spline tool.

Moving from AutoCad Mechanical to SW,(or other mid range MCAD product), the 2D environment seems the weakest aspect of the transition. Our customers still want .dwg approval drawings, so it boils down to how efficiently we can produce 2D drawings from solids in SW that approach the quality of the 2D drawings we are currently producing in AutoCAD.

RE: revision cloud

But why? Revision Cloud is not an ANSI standard or any standard that I'm aware of. With AutoCAD you can deviate from Standard. That's what screwed up CAD standards from the beginning (AutoCAD). If AutoCAD had used standards like those that are provided by ANSI (as an example), then the question of standards wouldn't be a question at all. Instead, we all would be finding ways to improve the standard instead discussing things that are not really relavent, because it shouldn't exist.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

http://www.scottjbaugh.com
Merry Christmas

RE: revision cloud

CADGemini (Mechanical)
If you really would like to use rev clouds. Why don't you just create a block of a cloud that is suitable to you and then you can reuse that block over and over again. Also you can scale the block to be smaller or bigger and you can position blocks onto selected geometry depending on what you want to put the cloud over.

Look in SW help on creating and using blocks.

A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new. -Albert Einstein

Challenges are what makes life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful.

RE: revision cloud

I agree Scott, good point. A star.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD

RE: revision cloud

Scott, I couldn't agree with you more. The industry standard, ASME Y14.100, titled Engineering Drawing Practices, is the adopted standard for engineering.  I think this is a closed issue.  I wish everyone the best of luck with their "revclouds" but please do not submit this as an enhancement request.

Best Regards,

Heckler

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups" John Kenneth Galbraith

RE: revision cloud

FYI
 
ASME Y14.100 is available for purchase from IHS. For more information, consult with an IHS sales representative by calling 800-854-7179.  

ASME Y14.100: Engineering Drawing Practices
Adopted on Jan. 30, 1998 the Department of Defense, DoD.
Date of Issuance: Nov. 23, 2001

Scope
This Standard establishes the essential requirements and reference documents applicable to the preparation and revision of engineering drawings and associated lists. It is essential that this Standard be used in close conjunction with ASME Y14.24, ASME Y14.34M, and ASME Y14.35M.

References
The following is a list of publications referenced in this Standard. When the following American National Standards referred to in this Standard are superseded by a revision approved by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI), the revision shall apply.

ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers)
ANSI Y14.6, Screw Thread Representation
ANSI Y14.6aM, Screw Thread Representation (Metric Supplement)
ANSI Y14.7.1, Gear Drawing Standards - Part 1: For Spur, Helical, Double Helical, and Rack
ANSI Y14.7.2, Gear and Spline Drawing Standards - Part 2: Bevel and Hypoid Gears
ANSI Y14.13M, Mechanical Spring Representation
ANSI Y32.10, Graphic Symbols for Fluid Power Diagrams

AIIM (Association for Information and Image Management)
ANSI/AIIM MS4, Flowchart Symbols and Their Use in Micrographics

AWS (American Welding Society)
ANSI/AWS A2.4, Standard Symbols for Welding, Brazing, and Nondestructive Examination
ANSI/AWS A3.0, Welding Terms and Definitions, Including Terms for Brazing, Soldering, Thermal Spraying, and Thermal Cutting

IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers)
ANSI/IEEE 91, Graphic Symbols for Logic Functions
ANSI/IEEE 200, Reference Designations for Electrical and Electronic Parts and Equipment
ANSI/IEEE 260.1, Letter Symbols for Units of Measurement (SI Units, Customary Inch-Pound Units, and Certain Other Units)
ANSI/IEEE 260.3, Mathematical Signs and Symbols for Use in Physical Sciences and Technology
ANSI/IEEE 268, Standard Metric Practice
ANSI/IEEE 280, Letter Symbols for Quantities Used in Electrical Science and Electrical Engineering (Same as ANSI Y10.5)
ANSI/IEEE 315a, Supplement to Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
ANSI/IEEE 991, Logic Circuit Diagrams
IEEE 91a, Supplement to Graphic Symbols for Logic Functions
IEEE 315, Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams


IPC (Institute for Interconnecting and Packaging Electronic Circuits)
ANSI/IPC D-350, Printed Board Description in Digital Form
ANSI/IPC T-50F, Terms and Definitions for Interconnecting and Packaging Electronic Circuits
IPC D-325, Documentation Requirements for Printed Boards, Assemblies, and Support Drawings
IPC 2221, Generic Standard on Printing Wiring Board Design

ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers)
ASME B46.1, Surface Texture (Surface Roughness, Waviness, and Lay)
ASME Y14.1, Decimal Inch Drawing Sheet Size and Format
ASME Y14.1M, Metric Drawing Sheet Size and Format
ASME Y14.2M, Line Conventions and Lettering
ASME Y14.3M, Multi- and Sectional-View Drawings
ASME Y14.4M, Pictorial Drawing
ASME Y14.5M, Dimensioning and Tolerancing
ASME Y14.8M, Castings and Forgings
ASME/ANSI Y14.18M, Optical Parts
ASME Y14.24, Types and Applications of Engineering Drawings
ASME Y14.34M, Associated Lists
ASME Y14.35M, Revision of Engineering Drawings and Associated Documents
ASME Y14.36M, Surface Texture Symbols
ASME Y14.38, Abbreviations and Acronyms
ASME Y32.2.6, Graphic Symbols for Heat-Power Apparatus

ASTM (ASTM International)
ASTM E 380, Standard Practice for the Use of the International System of Units (SI)
ASTM F 856, Standard Practice for Symbols - Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC)
ASTM F 1000, Standard Practice for Piping Systems Drawing Symbols

EIA (Electronic Industries Alliance)
EIA 632, Processes for Engineering a System

SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)
SAE AS 1290, Graphic Symbols for Aircraft Hydraulic and Pneumatic Systems

IHS and ASME
IHS has been the leading distributor of ASME standards and codes since 1974. In 1989, IHS and ASME first produced a full-text, electronically searchable, hyperlinked version of the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code on CD-ROM. The 2004 edition is now available.

 

Best Regards,

Heckler

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups" John Kenneth Galbraith

RE: revision cloud

Heckler,

Good information!  You forgot to add ASME Y14.41 DIGITAL PRODUCT DEFINITION DATA PRACTICES.

RE: revision cloud

We are a century old company. Most of the detailing practices are similar to what they were 50 years ago. Little has changed in detailing of pressure vessels and storage tanks except that CAD is used instead of board drafting.

Typically numbered revision triangles are used to indicate revisions. The 3 areas we see rev clouds used is to call attention to items that need clarification on approval drawings (typically an isolated clouded note like "specified customer supplied detail does not comply with OSHA requirements, please advise" in conjunction with a "Verify and Approve" arrow. 2) by the engineering companies or customers to highlight markup changes and 3)in house we use to highlight unusual requirements for the shop in isolated bold note form. Over the past 2 decades I have seen detail drawings from several competitors, they are very similar in approach to detailing. The majority still use AutoCAD and have not moved to 3D MCAD yet.

The real question for me is whether SolidWorks has the flexibility to allow us to detail the way our customers and shop expect to see. Keep in mind that this is a niche industry, typically these are smaller shops, there are not zones around the border, ECN's or geometric tolerances. The vessels can be over 150' in length or 80' in diameter with several levels of structural platforms or internals. Dimensions are fractional.

I am primarily interested in flexibility similar to AutoCAD to produce a document format that has worked successfully for decades. If we have to export to AutoCAD to "finish" our drawings then SolidWorks would be of little value. Creating models and assemblies is fun, but the end product in our environment is still 2d. I plan to try a couple of actual projects during the holidays to see if SW 2d has improved enough for our needs. Typically we have used SW for special projects only and focused on modeling in the past 5 years  and exported to AutoCAD for any detailing. We are just now seriously investigating whether SW, (or Alibre, Inventor or SolidEdge) could someday replace the need for AutoCAD.

I am finding other detailing tasks much more difficult to accomplish in SW than AutoCAD, lack of rev clouds is just a minor disappointment.

RE: revision cloud

jlcochran ... What "detailing tasks" are you needing?

The cloud can easily be produced as per jksolids post above.

BTW .. SW2005 drawing environment is supposed to be much improved, but I have not actually used it, so cannot verify.

RE: revision cloud

I see a battle of engineering dwg vs structural detailing.
It's true SW does not have the detailing ability so useful to the structural detailers use to autocad. It is also true SW does a fantastic job of causing adherence to established dwg standards.

Some time spent wringing the "art" you want out of SW will be required. But it can be done. The other option is to adapt your dwg process to what SW does most efficiently.

RE: revision cloud

Falcon4 - their is no battle between engineering drawings and structural detailing going on here.  The battle is between industry adopted drawing specifications/standards and the company that has being doing things a certain way for so long that it must be "right"!...but I guess one could call that "ART"

Best Regards,

Heckler

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups" John Kenneth Galbraith

RE: revision cloud

In my experience, (since the board and a Vemco) the only symbols I have seen used to high-light revision changes have been triangles with the rev letter inside. I always disliked having to do it, but for several companies that I worked for (commercial not Military)used this as thier standard.

RE: revision cloud

That's the point. Companies make their own standards up as they go along instead of using the proper standard. I worked for a company like this once. They had an unskilled person working for them and they trusted that person. They lead them astray and when I got there after they left. The company switched to SW and actual true standards were introduced. Well I got the task of getting them converted over to actual ANSI standards. It wasn't easy and it wasn't complete even after I left.

The point is, if companies want to use software like SW, then using the true ANSI standard is standard. If users want to customize if to fit theirs they can, but it will be more cumbersome for them. IMO SW should not change this, because why should SW change their software to match the unorganized standards of AutoCAD? AutoCAD is the one that screwed the Standards up (Mostly) in the first place, because of that freedom AutoCAD provides. SW doesn't have that freedom, however you can make custom things, But they are not true stnadards, and SW should and hopefully will not change this. Staying true with ANSI standards, is better to get your point across after your users understand them.

They had to learn once they might as well learn it over again the right way.

It's like when I was thinking of trying to quite smoking. "There is never a good time to quit, you just have to quit."

FYI - I did quit and have been free for 3.5 years. So your users will learn over and they may not like it, but they will switch.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

www.3dvisinotech.com
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
FAQ559-716 - SW Fora Users

RE: revision cloud

Scott,

There is a problem in your signature with your 3dvisiontech link. Vision is misspelled.

RE: revision cloud

Scott,
I have to agree with your statement regarding Autocad and the use of ANSI standards. However the one justification that I can offer regarding the use of triangles/revisions is that the companies that I worked for had all of their machined and sheet metal parts fabricated out of house. Since the vendors never saw a copy of the ECO it made it easier for them to see the changes from revision to revision.


RE: revision cloud

I think a lot of places do, do that. Do you remove the old triangles before putting the new ones on? If you didn't the drawing would be so full of triangles what would be the point?

A way around this would be to have a cover sheet with a decent Rev. table the lists the change. Plus if you have seen the SW Sheet format's you might have noticed the quadrants on the drawing, (like 1A)... like a map. You can list the quadrant with a detailed description of the change on the cover sheet. Then I think most people would see it.

This would help aleveate the need for Triangles.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

www.3dvisiontech.com
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
FAQ559-716 - SW Fora Users

RE: revision cloud

Yes we did remove old triangles. And when the ECO was written it did reference the Zone on the drawing in which the change appeared. I now work in a medical company that must maintain Design History Records. I have yet to do an ECO, just finishing the design for a Hyper-Spectral Cancer Imaging System. Here is what this place does, prototype and pre-production released drawings carry letter revisions. When the product is released and FDA approved the drawings switch to numbers for rev control. This is the first time I have ever encountered that. I can't wait to see what other surprizes are in store regarding ECO's

RE: revision cloud

Been gone a week, happy new year everyone.
I suggest stop using the clouds and go by the standards. Everyone reading the dwgs will get use to it.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD

RE: revision cloud

I know this thread is a bit old... but...

We found a cloud in Microsoft Word - of all places. It's an AUTO SHAPE. I insert it into a Word doc - reformat it & remove the fill color. Then COPY/PASTE it into my SolidWorks drawing. Then I can re-size it as I need & it plots pretty too. I compromize & only cloud my dimension text & general large areas. It's an acceptable work-around for us.

Hope it works for you too.

RE: revision cloud

A long read, but it fits for the way this thread is going...

Death of a Draftsman                           
By Leon Surprenant  
(Watch for this article in your June 2000 issue of ProE the Magazine and August issue of Solid Solutions.)

    "drafts­man (drafts'men) n., pl. 1 a person who draws plans of structures or machinery." ....  "3 an artist skillful in drawing."  Websters New World Dictionary.  Third College Edition.

    I can remember slowly drawing my pencil across the sheet of paper.   Twisting the point to keep it sharp and applying just the right amount of pressure to achieve that perfect line weight.  Taking the time to plan my document, long before any lead touched the paper.  Putting as much thought and care into how the document would be laid out as I would in the actual drawing of the document.  That sense of personal pride when I completed the job.  Unique, distinctive, identifiably my own.

   Studying the mechanics of drafting, I also learned to visualize the 2D as 3D, and vise-versa.  Using, but not relying, on the tools of the trade to create that complete and technically accurate drawing to communicate engineering data.  After 4 years in a vocational high school, then two at a technical college,  I continued to draw professionally for the next 5 years using a pencil and a drawing board.

    Then it happened, something that would forever revolutionized how professionals in my field would do their work.  The CAD workstation enters the scene.  Computer Aided Design and Drafting suddenly allowed the Draftsman to make unlimited modifications to a document without any degradation in the quality of the drawing.  Changes were easier and faster to make.  Geometry, notes, symbols, and just about anything could be easily copied from one drawing to another.  Eliminating many of the redundant tasks that Draftsmen use to have to perform, when drawing with a pencil.  The CAD Workstation was truly a powerful tool.

    As with everything, software and hardware would evolve over the years.  Designing and drafting in 2D would lead to 3D.  Then 3D designing would be replaced with designing in solids.  Soon, dumb 2D geometry would become parametric in nature.  This allowed views on a drawing to be created with the simple click of a button.  The tool was learning to do more and more.  And as a direct result, more and more CAD users were beginning to become dependent on the tool.   The roll of the Draftsperson was being redefined.  And there would be no stopping it.   No turning back.

    Today's graduates grew up as part of generation X.  Computer savvy and software proficient, they spend endless hours on their computers.  Learning the latest software and tickling the plastic keyboard with such speed, all you can see is blur when you watch their hands as they type.  They know the software inside and out.

    But the software is only a tool.  As with a pencil, the resulting documentation is only as good as the craftsman wielding it.  The tool is only a means to an end.  It, itself is not the goal.  The documentation is what we ultimately strive to achieve.  Today's graduates are whiz kids on the computer, but do they know how to create, read and understand technical drawings?  Some are very good, but as a whole, I'm not so sure.

    Spending very little, if any time using a pencil, these new "computer only" Draftsman don't seem to completely understand view generation.   Nor do they seem to take the appropriate amount of time to plan their documents. Instead, more emphasis is put on getting something drawn quickly, then right.   Because we can now change  drawings without leaving eraser marks or tears, it seems to of become OK to be sloppy about how drawings are put together.  Today's graduates aren't being trained to be Draftsmen.  Instead, a more accurate title would seem to be, CAD Operators.  Operators who, without the tool to do much of the drawing for them, would be lost.

    My fear is if your not able to create the drawing on your own, then how can you be expected to produce a drawing, that others can interpret and understand, with a computer?  The answer is, you can't.

    Now before you start thinking I'm anti-CAD, let me say for the record I'm not.  To the contrary, my opinion is quite the opposite.   I feel extremely privileged to have been in the business during the time that I have.   I have been lucky enough to have been trained in the discipline of drawing with pencil.    To have done so for over 10 years.  And then to experience the introduction and evolution of the CAD system, while still young enough to embrace and run with it.  I have experienced and prospered in both worlds.

   Today's CAD system are powerful and easy to use.   The Draftsman can do so much more, more quickly then ever before.  It is truly a very exciting time.  I look back at where I started and where we are today, and I can't help myself but to dream of the future.  Holographic projections and real time modification during CDR.  It is indeed an incredible and exhilarating experience being a part of the engineering community today.

    But what about that Draftsman of days gone by?  That technical professional, who could craft the abstract into the concrete with little more then a piece of paper and some graphite.  What will become of him?  Who really knows?  Maybe he will evolve.  Retaining those essential skill necessary to create a complete and accurate engineering package, while putting down the pencil and picking up the mouse.  Or, maybe he will just disappear and be replaced by CAD Operators who impress management with tools that look cool, but who couldn't make a drawing to save their lives.  Or maybe something in between.

    These days, I may be sporting the title of Mechanical Designer and wielding parametric solids model designs, but I'm in no way like the graduates of today.  If I'm ever approached and referenced to as a "CAD Operator", I know exactly how I'd respond.  With pride, standing up straight, I'll look them in the eyes and say, "I'm sorry, but your mistaken.  I'm no CAD Operator,      -   I am a Draftsman."

February 26, 2000

RE: revision cloud

very interesting. I will pass on.
thanks

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP1.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

RE: revision cloud

Very interesting thread.  I guess I don't understand why some of you think that a standard is an absolute.  Standards are meant to be guidelines or a foundation to build your industries standards upon. Not an absolute!! The fact is that there is no one standard that can address all the industries that use it.  And companies that do try to be so stringent need to take an enema and wake up. Loosen up fellas, there is no need to flame someone for asking a question.  Help them if you can.  But don't flame them for trying to improve their companies position.  And as far as SolidWorks goes, well it has alot of work to do in their drawing package.  AutoCad had it right.  The program allows us the freedom to modify standards to best suit our needs.  What has given AutoCad a bad name in that regard is when some knucklehead don't know what he's doing.  The basic standards are taught while in school, at least at the school I attended.

As far as standards go, I believe that by using a particular standard as a foundation and building upon it or modifing that standard to fit you industry is a completely acceptable practice.  

The Cad managers job is to increase productivity in the drafting dept.  Do your companies really care what drafting standards are being met?  Probably not, their only concern is to be as efficient as possible and everyone doing it the same way and taking our designs and putting them on paper so that our production workers understand what it is and how to build the design.  If that means modifing a standard then so be it. Get your heads out of the sand fellas.  Think outside the box.  Take your enema and relax. See the big picture and help your companies be profitable.

Just my 2 cents.

RE: revision cloud

Describe efficient. You can be just as efficient whether you follow the standards or not. We decided 10 years ago to follow the standards as close as possible. Our company has since grown and more profitable because of less errors. Managers don't care about the stds, just getting the work done. I train everyone here once a month on staying consistant with SolidWorks AND drafting standards. We have become very efficient. If I did not do this, everyone would be efficient in there own way, not the company in a whole.
Getting the project done and out the door as quick as possible, on time, is not efficient. Are you involved in or see the products returned and see what the problems were with the product?
IMO, what has been given ACAD a bad name is not stay up with new technologies. It started off cheap, was illegally copied throughout companies, then became std CAD because everyone knew it and was using it.
Being just a fastcad operator doesn't tell me you are efficient and make a company profitable... you are just a fast cad operator.
just my .02.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP1.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

RE: revision cloud

Chris,

You made some valid points in your statement.  All I was trying to do was point out that following a particular std. wasn't and shouldn't be an absolute.  And for someone to ask a simple question that was outside of a std. shouldn't be flammed for doing so.

To answer your question "Describe efficient" Efficient-The acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort. Exhibiting a high ratio of output to input.

If you would of completely read my statement you would of seen that I am not against std's.  The important thing here was to have your designer/drafters doing it the same way everytime weather it's an ANSI std or your own std. this will make your design dept. more "Efficient".

To answer your other question. I am involved in and see the product returns. In fact I am involved with almost every aspect of our product that you can imagine. Design, production, C/O's, Q.C., shipping, customer service, construction, scheduling etc....

RE: revision cloud

thanks for clarifying.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP1.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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