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Important job applicant skills
5

Important job applicant skills

Important job applicant skills

(OP)
I was recently on a job interview panel listening to job prospects.  I was dismayed at the quality of candidates, (we were looking for a BSME minimum, with emphasis on engine combustion studies).  

I was not especially displeased at their academic performance, however their presentation appearance (not professional looking, ie:  jeans, shirts not tucked in, no ties, no jackets, several not having shaved recently), but overlooking that, their communication skills were abhorrent.  I couldn’t get an answer without the “’know what I mean” or “see what I’m say’n” in almost every sentence.  I frequently work with college graduates and understand their dress styles and lack of funds to buy professional clothing for job interviews.  In what should be the most important step of a college graduates career, appearance is critical.

This job offered premium compensation (starting at $45,000 USD with benefits), moving allowances, spousal job relocation assistance, but we were looking for 3.5 GPA or better candidates.  The client offered $10,000 more for either a MSME or a BSME with an MBA.  Note that this is the starting offer and the client frequently worked up from this point.  I saw one PhD. (28 years old) receive and accept an offer of $72,000, but he was a 4.0 GPA with relative study experience.  He was very professional in both his appearance, presentation, academics, and a former US Army officer (undergraduate while in the US Army).

After the interviews were concluded, we compiled our worksheets and noticed a common thread:  The candidates who presented better verbal and communication skills and first impressions but not as well in their skills areas scored higher than poorly prepared (visual and first impression candidates) who had better GPA’s and relative skills.  Applicants from outside of the US seemed to have more concern on their presentation appearance than US students (I am in the US).  Former military scored better than the general applicant.

When I was teaching full time, we conducted mock job interviews and critiqued our students in all areas.  Towards the end of my program, I began to notice a definite change in personal concern for appearance and applicant apathy.  At one point, I began to wonder if they just don’t care if they get the job.

Care to comment?
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Important job applicant skills

I recently held interviews with over 12 candidates before we found a good match for our company.  One of the candidates was explaining one of the machine designs he had worked on.  I was ready to end the interview when the candidate began to use sound effects.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Important job applicant skills

2
"You can't go wrong wearing your dress blues."

This was a saying when I was in the navy.  It applied specifically to which uniform to wear when one had any doubt.  In a broader sense, it meant that you can't go wrong with your best manners and professional conduct.

Another saying I liked was "Don't play reindeer games unless you're one of the reindeer."  I don't like interviewees who try to be "one of the gang".  You are not one of the gang.  At this rate, you won't be.

Not everyone has a suit.  Everyone has access to a laundromat.  For that matter, sport coats and ties don't cost that much.  All shirts are capable of being tucked in.

I've never seen a woman show up for an interview with an unprofessional appearance.

"Customer satisfaction, while theoretically possible, is neither guaranteed nor statistically likely.--E.L. Kersten
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

RE: Important job applicant skills

madmango:

shame on you...the use of sound effects during an interview is definately thinking outside the box....LOL

I interview a lot, and the quality is there, you just have to ask different questions and toleerate different norms.  Gen X and Gen Next are very much different than Baby Boomer and Tail end Boomers.  I see companies strive to change to make work places acceptable of suffer the wrath of their young employees.  It seems like the new generation will do pretty much what ever they want or they will go elsewhere.  They do follow strong leaders and ignore poor ones.  Dressing is just one of the "problem" areas I encountered.  I got past it by plain talking with them that office casual is one thing and proper business dress is another and both will be tolerated and we will help them understand how to use dress in the work place.  

The short of my rant is, get used to it and change your ways or you will not get the talent that you desire.  The problem may seem to be with the young applicants, but what you described is the norm to them.  I have changed my ways...and still success is fleeting...

Change is a wonderful thing...

BobPE

RE: Important job applicant skills

my rambling ... I was in a college class a few years ago and career counselor came in to talk to us. He asked each of us which field are we going to work in when we graduate. One guy that was in his early twenties said, "I don't know". The counselor said he wants an answer and that he should know by now. The young man said, "All I want is that piece of paper so I can make the big bucks!". I now work with some Engineers that have the same mentality! I wonder ... how do people get past the interview process? Are we desparate for engineers?

RE: Important job applicant skills

Back to the original question.

Communications skills and quality are essential in a dynamic environment.  It's one thing to work with Dr. Hawking for 20 yrs and be able to decipher his mumblings into intelligible words.  It's another thing to have to decipher someone's chicken scratches or unintelligible ramblings to determine whether the information is there and is credible.

The bottom line is that a well-groomed presenter, handsome or not, will make you more receptive to the message and a well-presented message is key to transmitting information and persuasive messages.  

As in the case of Casandra Peterson, packaging is a critical part of any enterprise.

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

IRstuff,

Excellent example on that last point!

RE: Important job applicant skills

Oftentimes, the people with the high GPA are riding on that.  They feel that if the company wants their skill strengths, they'll hire them no matter what they look like or how they present themselves.  To me, that speaks of vanity and a possible bad-egg.
I do agree that communications skills are vitally important.  I'd be willing to go easy on an unprofessional appearance if the communications skills match the engineering skills.
At my last job interview, I wore black machine-washable slacks, machine-washable blouse, simple suit jacket, hair in a low french twist, and steel-toed boots, which looked a little odd against the formality of the ensemble.  However, when the interviewer offered a tour of the facility, I reassured him that everything I was wearing was washable and I had no hesitation about touring a dusty, grimy industrial facility, and the safety bump cap fit perfectly over my hairstyle.  That demonstrated thinking ahead and anticipating events.  I got the job :)

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

RE: Important job applicant skills

(OP)
Back to my original post, several applicants slouched in the chair in a "spread eagle" or a "wounded duck" position, one chewed gum, one kept picking his nose, one smelled so bad we had to open the office, the women who applied were dressed nicely and made a good impression.  Ultimately, the firm hired three of the 20 candidates, less than the 5 positions they had open.  Their policy was to rotate the interviewing panel.  I am a consulting professional, not an employee of the firm.
The three that were hired?  The former US Army officer (PhD ME), one MSME, and one BSME/MBA.  The Army gent was dressed impeccably in a well fitted suit, the other two (one a woman) were dressed appropriately.  The others were summarily dismissed.  One applicant actually left the interview to go to the washroom and never returned!  The panel agreed that the appearance led to the impression that the winning applicants cared enough to present themselves appropriately, and were awarded justly.
There should be a required class (post graduate) on interviewing etiquette.
Franz

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RE: Important job applicant skills

Quote (franzh):

There should be a required class (post graduate) on interviewing etiquette.
I think I would prefer that there not be.  Makes it that much easier to compete.

RE: Important job applicant skills

franz:

what would you say were the age distributions of the applicants?  

I hear a lot of people talk about this and it always facinates me.   Me, I wore a suit and tie to each and every interview I ever had.  I can't say that for young people I hire.  But you know what, if I let that bother me, I will not have access to the talent I need.

I adapt and in saying that I know how hard it is for engineers to adapt...I have had resumes in colored pencil...now the obvious idiots rise to the surface rather quickly and exit the process...But that kid with chenos and a half tucked in shirt represents a large portion of the engineering labor pool coming out of college.

I also know hwat generatorgrrl is saying too.   The stars of any group quickly get taken up and they are hard to find....

I guess I don't judge books by their cover...my ratty books have some of the best answers in the world in them....If I need a new shiney book to show off, I will borrow one from the library then return it when I am done with it....

BobPE

RE: Important job applicant skills

I've been through several interviews and at the beginning I went with a suit. Truth is that it didn't did much to me.
And despite being comfortable with it, I don't use it everyday, so it's normal if people could notice some nervous ticks, or lack of comfort.

The last job interviews I was in were for the same job, I went with jeans, shirt, and casual shoes. And I nailed it.
So the clothing isn't that important. Not the same with posture and communication skills... This is the most important thing in a job interview.

Picking your nose or smelling is the worst you can do!!! LOL

RE: Important job applicant skills

(OP)
Looks like I opened Pandora box!
Clothing certainly was not the prime determining factor.  Each of these applicants passed the preliminary phone interview by the HR department, their grades and previous employment records verified, and personal interviews scheduled.  The applicants had approximatly 5 contacts from the client company prior to employment.  (College recruiter, phone interview by HR, records verification, personal interview, second interview, on-site visit to meet with peers, final hiring process).
The ages ranged from 23 for a BSME, to 35 for a late BSME.  The hired applicants were within a year of each other, about 27.
When it came to how the applicants prepared themselves to answer questions, the "naw" fell to "I'm sorry, I dont have that answer".  The applicants would have to meet their clients on a regular basis, make presentations, and interact with international peers.
Just like buying computer parts.  Buy a component in a white box from a discount warehouse or buy one in a shrink wrapped box with all the documentation, pay a little more, and you take your chances.  I've had my share of discount parts and would rather buy premium.
The client would rather not train their employees in how to dress.
I too have seem the rough looking graduates with clockwork minds versus the polished Chino and Van Huesen type with mush between the ears, thats why we have interview panels, to see what we are "buying".
Franz

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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Important job applicant skills

"The way you look, it doesn't matter/ The way you talk, it doesn't matter/ The way you move, it doesn't matter/ It doesn't matter how you cut your hair - its what's inside that counts."
A nice song and a nice message, and that seems to be the mindset behind people showing up for interviews dressed like hobos :B  But lord only knows what's going through the minds of people who show up unbathed and snot-nosed!  Yikes!
I'm with TheTick, don't teach these people what they're doing wrong.  It makes it that much easier for those of us who have the skills AND the marketting ^__^

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

RE: Important job applicant skills

open a pandora's box?????here??????on Eng-Tips....naw....Talking about this stuff is the highlight of my day and I suspect, many others days too......

BobPE

RE: Important job applicant skills

In my fairly short tenure here there was a big thread or two on attire (started about women's interview garb I think), and a thread I started on the English forum about written communication skills--which isn't too far off from oral communication skills.  People definitely have opinions about this.

I'm a pretty informal dresser but make some effort to get it together for formal situations like interviews.  GeneratorGrrl--I love the idea of the steeltoes with the business attire.  I've never had to be in business attire at a plant, so I don't know if I would have thought of that.

Last Friday's USA Today had an article in it about what Kids These Days are wearing to interviews.  Sure made me feel a lot better about my informal tendencies, I'll tell ya.  Flipflops and bedroom slippers at one extreme, club clothes with no knickers at the other!  Then again this is the generation who premiered the notion that visible bra straps and thongs are unremarkable, and the generation coming up behind them thinks that midriffs of any size should be on open or tightly wrapped display.  

It's a whole different idea of body image and presentation than I grew up with.  Maybe it's good that they don't have any hangups.  But maybe hangups are there for a reason.  Either way, though, as someone else pointed out, when you go for an interview, you're looking to join someone else's club.  ('Course, maybe they're filtering as much as the interviewer is, and they only want to join a club where they can wear their bunny slippers.)

The article didn't address their speaking skills.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

It's one thing to say that you don't care what your clothes say about you.  Dressing poorly for an interview sends a different message: "I do not pay attention to the signals I am sending to others."

RE: Important job applicant skills

The thing about BobPE's ratty books is that they are HIS ratty books, and quite possibly, he was the one that made them ratty.  That makes them well-worn and used, which is quite different than coming out of the book bindery looking like that.

The issue is whether you would go into a new book store and buy that book or one with newer covers, particularly given parity on everything else.

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

The younger generation is insensitive to appearance even in situations demanding higher standards. I have seen T shirts and Hawaiian shirts at weddings, several days growth of beard, etc.

My lawyer niece was escorted by one of these clowns, and I asked her about his background, "because you are something special." She seemed surprised. As a society, we seem to be accepting lower standards.

I think the time has come to inform the universities to coach students in the norm of dress required in business. Traditionally they have been informed about academic content required in the professions and business.

At the concert we as a family wear formal. It is surprising how attendees respond. I have seen regular upgrading of dress in one season. People are watching and they take cues from others.

RE: Important job applicant skills

There's still a HUGE difference between business casual and grunge.

I make no apologies for these decisions.  I don't think it's too much to ask to dress up for one day and look the part, particularly since almost all interview prep instructions given out by schools tell you clearly to dress and groon nicely for an interview.

If nothing else, it tells me that he can't follow instructions or thinks he's too smart or too good to follow some simple rules.  That kind of attitude and poor judgement will get you in all sorts of trouble, some minor and smoe more serious.  

A relatively minor lapse in judgement from ONE engineer at Boeing cost the company a multi-billion dollar contract award.  

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

First impressions are of prime importance while interviewing.  Not only are you being judged on technical competence but also personality and the ability to smoothly integrate into the company.  Physical appearance is your first chance to get an interview going right or wrong.  Even before the conversation starts, the interviewer is evaluating the candidate.

If you show up and give a poor impression you are not going to do well regardless of skill.  In a campus or job fair setting, you might actually hurt other chances as interviewers from different firms will talk to each other and compare candidate impressions.

Regards,

RE: Important job applicant skills

atrichoke:

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?



IRstuff:

When I need books, I like the ratty covered ones cause they are cheaper....LOL....But I know what you are trying to say....


BobPE

RE: Important job applicant skills

(OP)
I guess all one has to do is to look at Japan, where etiquette is of prime importance.  One small gesture, one wrong word, and protocol is violated.  Not that I necessarily approve of such strict standards, but in a professional workplace, with two identical employees, one with a professional attire / appearance/ demeanor, and the other with sloppy / unkempt / non-professional appearance, and a client will tend to gravitate to the more professional appearing person.
Occasionally, when my boss and I make a site visit, and I just happen to dress more upscale, I tend to get more “respect” than he, although it is clear who is the superior.
Recently, on two consecutive days, I was told to make a surprise site visit on a day I was moving offices.  I had on grubby clothes, sneakers, and a sweatshirt.  I had to provide identification and was told I needed an escort around the facility.  The next day, I returned with my “regular clothes”.  I was treated with courtesy and was allowed full non-controlled access.
Artichoke is correct, one should not pre-judge by appearance, and that the workplace is indeed more casual (all one has to do is look at photos taken in the 20’s and 30’s with workers showing up for laborer jobs wearing ties and hats, automobile assembly line technicians also with the tie/hat combo).  I rarely wear a tie to work unless I have advance notice of a vital meeting or if I am making a professional presentation.  My favorite work clothes is jeans with a polo-type shirt.
Thanks all for your input.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Important job applicant skills

One should not pre-judge by appearance, but there are limits!  I always made sure that I look decent during interviews or business meetings.  It may not seem this way to all, but if you care about your appearance and the impression that you will leave, you will care about the company that you want to work for.  An extra hour of making sure you look clean and un-wrinkly gives out the impression that you "care" about yourself, which leads to the assumption that you will care about the way you come out during meetings, and what and how you speak and so on.  There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans and steel toed boots, but if those jeans are ripped and the boots look like you came out from a dust storm, whell that speaks for itself.  

I graduated from a COOP program, where we had 4 work terms to do, and therefore at least 4 interviews to go through.  Let me tell you, the first interview, it was so-so for everyone, but by the last one, we all had interview suits.  Somebody mentioned that it should be thought in school, you bet it should be!

Coka

RE: Important job applicant skills

Ratty books usually imply lots of use, so a ratty used book MIGHT be good and useful, or it might simply have been owned by a slob.

Ditto for an applicant.  I've known some extremely intelligent people who were utter slobs and oblivious to the whole concept of personal hygiene (you know what I mean).  One guy at a former company looked and smelled like a car mechanic most of the time, but was a very good designer of high-speed electronic circuits.

However, I'd argue that they were exceptions to the rule.

And, given that most schools will at least given every potential graduate a checklist and possibly a workshop on interviewing, there is no real excuse for looking ratty at an interview.

The only reason, would be someone who has utter contempt for the process or thinks he's so smart that employers should simply hire him; sight unseen and with crappy grades to boot

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

I just did a job interview a couple weeks ago. I wore a Sunday go to meeting suit with a really sharp red tie on a bright white strarched shirt, and black dress shoes. I looked like a preacher! The interview was a panel type with several people asking questions, most of them wearing blue jeans and polo shirts. The job was an industrial position, and I was happy to see that the typical mode of dress in the office was jeans, but I did not regret for one instant wearing my best suit. A resume and a interview are opportunities to advertise yourself, and just like any other advertising you need to make the product as attractive as possible. In the case of job hunting, the product is you!

RE: Important job applicant skills

I have found it useful at times to ask ahead what would be considered appropriate attire for the interview.  I then step it up a notch to be on the safe side.  I had found out (the hard way) previously that one companies view of business casual differs from another (especially on Fridays).  At one interview I had the HR director said "come as you are" but the manager I interviewed with was noticeably uncomfortable and the meeting did not go well.  I had appeared in boat shoes without socks (as what was then "in vogue" at the time during summer months).  The position went to a different candidate.

RE: Important job applicant skills

One interview I went for began with dinner the evening before.  The HR person setting up the interview specifically stated "no tie" for the dinner.  When I arrived with no tie, my dining partners were wearing ties.  I still haven't figured out whether that was a communication gap, some sort of test, or nothing at all.  It puzzles me still.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Whenever you are invited to job releasted dinner, always bring a tie ... either wear it or have it in your pocket.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Confidence is a big factor in any interview.  Now there is a difference in being confident in your skills and ability and being arrogant.  There’s a fine line between the two to be sure.  A third shade of confidence is “perceived BS” on the behalf of the interviewer.

If you are not sure about your own value and skills and what you can provide to a prospective employer, then the employer is not going to feel secure in hiring you.  Granted confidence also comes with work experience, but if you can look the interviewer(s) in the eye, talk to them directly, look comfortable, then your confidence level will look higher.

Also being observant can help greatly.  Before the interview, research the company you are applying for.  Know what their core product or service is.  Know what their customer base is and be prepared to talk about that during the interview.  When you arrive, take a look around at other employees, the condition of office furniture, general tidiness.  All of these things can be indicators of the type of culture the company has, and you should use this information when formulating your responses during the interview.

I interviewed once for a company that made high-output transceivers for the FBI and forestry services.  There were inspirational and safety posters all over the place.  During the interview I was asked if I knew what “SMD” was (this was back in ’90).  Luckily for me I remembered seeing one of their posters that talked about ESD hazards and surface mounted devices.  I put 2 and 2 together and responded with the correct answer.  Observation can be a great tool.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
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RE: Important job applicant skills

strokersix,
perhaps it was a test to see if you would go the extra mile

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

Addendum,

Many companies are interested in people that will put in extra effort, which can be manifested as to whether you are low-side or high-side compliant.

So, if you are given a requirement and you give an extra 10% rather than the minimum, that can be a critical difference to ultimate customer satisfaction and hence influence the company's performance.

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

sms, I hadn't bothered posting to this thread, as I thought the answer was obvious. You got very close, but here's my take.

Interviewing is basically a process whereby the interviewee is selling themselves to the interviewer. This process starts with your resume (CV), and your covering letter and your telephone interview, if you have one. Finally you get to the interview. Probably you have invested 20 hours in this process so far, why on earth would you screw up this selling job by poor physical presentation, with a notional one hour extra of investment? It has got to be the most cost effective way of improving the odds.

Admittedly, since leaving uni, I've never worn a suit, but jacket and tie for interviews, always, even in Sydney in a miasmatic summer.

 

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Important job applicant skills

I'm probably one of the unusual ones at work. I'm the only Chartered Engineer on site, except the station director, and the only one from the electrical discipline (he's a mech). I wear a tie once in a blue moon - usually for a wedding, or for an interview somewhere else - and invariably am in a boiler suit upon arrival at work. The outside of my site coat is so scruffy that it walks beside me. I don't bother having a shave every day.

However:

- I'm supposedly the most technically skilled engineer on site.
- I iron my shirts, and have a clean one each day.
- I shower every day, once to arrive at work clean, and once to wash work off me afterwards.
- I'm courteous and professional on the phone.
- I smarten myself up when dealing with external visitors.


I am tired of the office politics and watching the management wannabees crawling over each other like cockroaches on a pile of dung as they strive to be noticed for their exceptional indifference. I once asked the HR Manager of the day "But why would I want to be anything like you people?" when asked about management aspirations. Asking a colleague promoted way beyond his ability whether he suffered from delusions of adequacy just slipped past my lips last year. I have no time for fools, and am seen as outspoken. Being right and outspoken frustrates them further, as there is little comeback.

I enjoy my job and I am good at it. That is a nice state to be in, and I am content. Now about my pay raise...

----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Important job applicant skills

Perhaps strokersix's tie story was indeed a test to see if he would go the extra mile, but then again if he'd shown up wearing a tie, maybe they would have held it against him for failure to follow directions!  I guess that's where having a tie in a pocket comes in, but a woman who'd made a slacks vs. skirt decision based on similar advice wouldn't really be able to do much about it.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

Well you could always follow the Muslim women and wear both. Then you could ditch whichever was least inappropriate. Might get a bit hot until you decide which way to go.

I'm fascinated by this 'interview by social interrogation' technique. I've been on the receiving end twice, and failed to get through to the next interview stage both times. No skin off my nose, the companies who were looking for /engineers/ got what they wanted.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Important job applicant skills

I interview a fair number of individuals, from technicians to administrative to engineers.  I am not as strict about clothing (though it must be in good taste, clean, and at the least casually presentable...jeans and shorts are inapproriate, even here in the warm climes).  I always like to see something written from the individual (at minimum, the resume and preferably a contact letter).

In my business we put out a lot of paperwork (reports, test results, etc.), and it must be correct.  I look for attention to detail in the written work as they have surely had time to reflect and edit the work.  I'm less harsh on the spoken interview as I understand that some individual might be a bit apprehensive in the interview process, though I also use it as a measure of their capability under pressure.

The bottom line to all of this is that if the individual's personality fits and they are reasonably presentable, I'll look then at their technical skills.  

RE: Important job applicant skills

Well let me flip the coin here.  When I go on interviews I always wear a suit and tie, but for the interviewers (full grown men and women), they seem to be always wearing from causal (khakis and polo shirt) to street (jeans and T shirt).  I always feel over dressed.  Now for these kids (not to defend them), may be they have been on other job interviews and saw how today’s business attire is and just simply thought that “well may be I should dress the same way”.  We are not in the suit and tie days anymore and because of generation X, we started with dress down Fridays and then went to dress down every days.  Sometimes I feel silly being fully dressed and the guy across from me who is interviewing is in T shirt, jeans, and sneakers.  

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Important job applicant skills

I think back on what I was like when young (cocky, dogmatic, and know-it-all) and can see why some of those kids behaved and appeared the way they did.  Of course, the rest of us senior people know those kids were just continuing their education outside of school; they just didn't know it. Nor did they realize the tuition was more expensive than their college education.  

I interviewed quite a few people in the 80's both as a manager and an engineer and have to say that personal appearance wasn't a big part of the equation, although I don't ever remember seeing any slobs.  The two key things addressed in the interviews were a) technical/thinking ability and b) how will this person fit in now and in 5-10 years.  They were good strategies.  Also, a person poor in communication abilities never made the cut (they usually never made it past the phone screen).  

I remember my first job -- I was an engineer, so I felt I had to show up in a coat and tie.  I lasted a few days until I realized that few engineers dressed that way in California (at least in the companies I was familiar with).  In fact, nowdays, seeing someone in a coat and tie virtually always marks them as an outsider.  

RE: Important job applicant skills

Man, things seems to have changed quite a bit in the eight years since I interviewed for my first job.  The only decision I had to make was whether or not to wear my wedding ring to the interview.  Not wearing a suit wasn't even a consideration and I don't remember seeing anyone who wasn't well dressed back then.

FWIW: I did elect to wear my ring.  I decided that a company that would consider me less available becuase I already had a marital commitment wasn't the kind of place I would want to get a job at anyway.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Wow!  You really felt, as late as 1996, that wearing a wedding ring to an interview was a risk?  Scary.  What kind of company/job?

I know very few engineers who aren't married.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

Body language is also very important!
Folding your arms in a defensive manner etc.
It also helps to smile.
People also form an impression in the first few minutes.

The biggest help to me over the years was when I actually interviewed somebody myself. Apart from technical ability, to be honest I would have to say that I went on a general impression. That's human nature I guess.

Speedy

RE: Important job applicant skills

HgTx,

Perhaps I wasn't clear - this was my senior year of college when I was interviewing for my first job as a degreed engineer.  Most of my peers at the time were not married and I doubt most who graduated from college with you were married the time either.

There was, the perception at least, that companies were less likely to hire a married person vs a single person for an entry level job since a married person would want to go home at the end of the day to be with their spouse/family vs. a single person who'd be malleable to working 80 hours a week out of school.

Perhaps it wasn't the case in reality.  However, it was the general perception of the job market when I was graduating.  Probably driven more by those going into IT types of jobs.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: Important job applicant skills

No, you're right, especially if you were a conventional 22-year-old rather than a "nontraditional" student.  Engineers fear what is different, and a married 22-y.o. is different (probably much more mature than his peers, but different nonetheless).  I think it might be a slightly different question if you were, say, graduating at 30 after a change in career--presumably you'd be bringing experience to the table that might make up for their assumptions about your availability.

Interesting.  50 years ago women were expected to quit their jobs when they got married--not only because they had husbands to provide for them and thus the jobs should go to others, but because it was assumed they'd make their families their priority over work.  How lovely to see that this bad attitude on the part of employers is now equal-opportunity.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

Impressions Matter!

There are some companies where impression does not matter, some hiring managers, and perhaps even some industries. But in general, we hire who we feel will be the best "fit" in our company, and that includes interfacing with customers. I expect my employees (engineers) to be able to talk and write, and also to make a good initial impression, both on me, and on my customers.  Those who are very capable technically, but don't make a good first impression, may not get a second chance if they ever meet the customer.  

What is the appropriate attire does vary place to place,  and I like our "casual Friday's" as much as the next guy.  But if I'm conducting an interview, I wear a coat and tie, and expect the applicant to be similarly dressed.  I will mention or explain typical attire during the interview, especially if it's on a Friday and the applicant see's what most others are wearing.

Now let's turn it around - if I were interviewing for a position in what I hope is a solid and growing company and the interviewer wore a tee shirt, the company and this person would be less regarded by your's truely, and most likely I would find employment at another compamy.

RE: Important job applicant skills

I'm a newcomer to this website, and would like to offer my input.  I'm currently 20 years old, a biomedical engineering student, and trying to learn as much about the industry, specific companies, the hiring process, and how I should market myself in order to earn an engineering job and then earn an MBA.  It's overwhelming at times, but this topic seems to be a no-brainer.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the common trend is that applicants from my generation are dressing so poorly.  Whenever I am going to a formal event, I always spend extra time preparing and wear my suit. I only have one suit but it fits perfectly and looks sharp.  My friends do the same thing, as do other students that I see walking around campus headed to interviews or formal functions.  This may be because of the character of the school (Northwestern U) but it still astonishes me that applicants wouldn't dress their best to get hired.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Would like to throw in my 2-cents and pose a question...

First off my generation is not ALL degenerates, some of us do know how to shave, shower, and dress appropriately, I like to think myself included.  I don't even own a pair of slippers let alone think of showing up to an interview in a pair.

Second, I recently left the military and was told I needed to grow out my hair for the 'corporate culture' because short haircuts were not deemed professional and was curious what other professional engineers thought on the issue.

On a side note I did wear a suit and tie to a plant and was invited back for a second interview with the instructions to wear worksite clothing ie boots, jeans, t-shirt, and was offered the job the next day, so dress to impress THEN dress like the rest.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Extreme styling, of any kind, is a non-conformist condition, which makes management uncomfortable.  While our company stresses acceptance of diversity, I'm not sure they would go for someone who shows up in black leather and chains and body piercings.

Otherwise, short hair has connotations of military, e.g., rigidity.  Therefore, it may or may not be the message you want to convey.  It's really a question of how much you want to fit in, if at all.

TTFN

RE: Important job applicant skills

Buzz cuts seem to be pretty popular around here, including among management.  I've seen a number of men go from ear-length to 1/4" stubble once their hair started to thin.  Then again, this is Texas, and government work at that.  What's considered too short might depend on how many military bases are in the area and how hot the weather gets.  Where y'at?

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

EOIT:

What generation are you from???  I am just curious.

If it were not for short hair, I would have no hair!!!!  Seriously, I have a buzz, vanity is not a big issue.  I have had engineers with hair down their backs (men).  Again, I have no problem and expect no problems from others.

Getting a job can be a differnet story and as IRstuff suggests, being a non-conformist applicant is a sea of comformists...well, you get the picture....

If you feel strongly about it, and choose not to conform for some reason to get the job, discuss the issues with the person interviewing you.  Inform then that this is who you are and you are willing to either conform or not depending on the companies needs..(when you find a job using that approach, let me know so I can go there to work too!!!)

In general, the older managers will see non-comfority different than youngers ones.  I personally do not let trivial things like that get in the way of a good product.  Now, I may limit the non-conformists advancement with public business, but I will also tell them that I am doing that and why...I have had meetings with top clients with Jr. staff with nose and lip rings...But I feel comfortable as a leader and feel I can make things like that work....When it comes right down to it, I respect the talent of a person and work to make the non-conformity we all have in us work to the betterment of the project.

You wear slippers and stink....well...that is not non-conformity...lol

BobPE

RE: Important job applicant skills

I woulda thunk that a more conservative older generation who dislikes nonconformity would really go for a military look.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

(OP)
For those that are concerned, no where do I imply that this generation is degenerate.  In the recent interviews, ALL of the applicants were under 35

I often felt that my generation had an exclusive right to that title, at least, that's what my father told me!

Was it Plato that once stated that the "Youth of today will be the ruin of us all!"  Hmm, that echoed through my fathers house more than once!

Whatever generation I am in, certainly not the "X", "Y", or "Z", but one of the "Baby Boomers".

Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Important job applicant skills

What came between Baby Boomers & GenX?  The generation labels seem to be getting more frequent.  In MY day, we didn't all have to have our own generation label!

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

The issue of hair length (for males, at least) comes and goes.

When I left college, more than a few years ago.....ALL had long hair except those in the military.  At the same time, a career in the military at that time was not looked at fondly by most of society as Vietnam was winding down.  

Years later things began to change, and military service finally again became something to be proud of.

Today,  I find it hard to believe that some would recommend NOT having short hair so as to NOT be perceived as related to the military.  Of course,  I'm now retired military, and still work indirectly for DOD, so I readily admit that my situation can't be construed as typical everywhere else.   Also,  my receeding hairline has absolutely NOTHING to do with this view :)

RE: Important job applicant skills

When picking your wardrobe for the interview, ask youself if you would be denied the job if you dressed too well?!?!

If you don't know anything about dressing well, like I did in college, go to a men's clothing store and they'll set you up.  Tell them it's for a job interview and any good salesmen should be smart enough to set you up with something affordable.  If not, go on to the next store.
My experience doing so got me one suit that works in a variety of situations where dressing up is necessary.

Steven Fahey, CET
"Simplicate, and add more lightness" - Bill Stout

RE: Important job applicant skills

BobPE: Don't really know what generation I am suppossed to be from, it seems like every graduating class has a new one but I was born in the early 80's if that helps.  

Well I decided to try to go about half way and grew my hair out about an inich longer than normal, went to a men's clothing store, like SparWeb said, and they set me up with the suit, shirts, and ties, went on a bunch of interviews and landed a good job in Texas about halfway between Dallas and Houston.  No military bases around and non of the people I work with have ever been in but they seem receptive so that is a plus.

Would like to say that over dressing is never a problem unless you were told otherwise.  Steel toe means steel toe and buisness casual is up to anyones interpretation

Happy new year all.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Born in the early 80s?  And you've finished your military service *and* a college degree?  Efficient!

No military bases around?  Fort Hood can't be but a couple hours away--"down the road" in Texas terms!  Go ahead and go back to the dog clippers unless you've decided you like having hair.

In civil engineering circles, cowboy boots seem to be acceptable professional wear around here.  I ain't going there, though.

Hg

RE: Important job applicant skills

Yeah thought about the shorter hair again, boy it is annoying having to actually have hair, sorry to all of you without any...

But cowboy boots are 'in' here as well.  Kinda different and I have thought about getting a good pair to wear around but we will see.  I have heard they even have acceptable steel toed ones for industrial settings

On another note for personal apperance shaving is a good thing and beards are okay, but inbetween looks unkept and somewhat sloppy.  Coming from military with a shave always rule I didn't really notice it till I got out and now can't believe that people will go into work without having shaved for 2-3 days and then shave and let it go...

Is this just me or is it the new norm.  Of course they always do it for planned buisness meetings, but what happens for ones called out of the blue.

RE: Important job applicant skills

Yeah, the steel-toed cowboy boots are real, and you can get a hardhat shaped like a cowboy hat to match, though I haven't seen one of those on anyone I take seriously.  I'm guessing a steel-toed cowboy boot isn't a bad idea on a ranch either, and that's the demand that drove the product, rather than the industrial types who just won't give up their pointy boots.  (Though those guys are pretty hard-core; one of my inspectors used to bend up the sides of his full-brim hard hat to look more like a cowboy hat because they wouldn't let him wear a cowboy hardhat.)

I haven't noticed a lot of beard shadow even in this jeans-friendly environment.  But then I might just not have noticed.

Hg

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