Engineering Degree
Engineering Degree
(OP)
I started as a draftsman and worked my way up to managing a group of engineers and designers for multi million dollar projects. I have been in this business for 30 years in the office and in the field. The company I work for is very prestigious and pays me well. This, I am sure, is based upon my experience and proven track record over time.
I had an interview with an equally prestigious company. It was a management position very similar to what I am doing now (and have been for almost 7 years). The position did call for an engineering degree with 8+ years experience. I sent my resume in, which does state that I have credits towards a B.S. degree, but never alludes to anything further in that regard. I was telephoned screened by the engineering manager and asked to come in for a face to face. I flew to their location (at their expense) and was initially interviewed by H.R. who asked me why was I applying for the position without a degree???? This somewhat confounded me as I was screened and appeared to be a good match. My question to you is: What does a degree get you that 30 years of progressive experience and a proven track record of success does not??
I had an interview with an equally prestigious company. It was a management position very similar to what I am doing now (and have been for almost 7 years). The position did call for an engineering degree with 8+ years experience. I sent my resume in, which does state that I have credits towards a B.S. degree, but never alludes to anything further in that regard. I was telephoned screened by the engineering manager and asked to come in for a face to face. I flew to their location (at their expense) and was initially interviewed by H.R. who asked me why was I applying for the position without a degree???? This somewhat confounded me as I was screened and appeared to be a good match. My question to you is: What does a degree get you that 30 years of progressive experience and a proven track record of success does not??





RE: Engineering Degree
1. The nature of the position.
2. The view of the company as to whether the degree (and perhaps the ability to get licensed) is a key ingredient in your ability to not only DO the job, but SELL the job to clients.
For the first item, if the position includes your efforts to do quality review, design calculations, and other more technical things, I think that they may have the sense that only a degree'd engineer could do this...they are looking for some semblance of credentials that prove to them that you can do these things.
For the second one, they may just WANT a degreed engineer in that position for the outside world to see and know that they have degreed engineers doing the work.
In either case, their reasons may be not so great if you are indeed able to do the work, check the work, have the knowledge, etc. which 30 years of experience can probably develop. The only thing I list above that could be a big roadblock would be the licensing - some places may still have licensure by experience (vs. degree) but that is fast going away.
In your case, you probably have to do some inovative selling of yourself to get by this initial roadblock.
RE: Engineering Degree
A degree does not automatically make someone a better candidate for a job. An engineering degree may provide an understanding of concepts that are not learned on a drafting table or while preparing engineering specifications. It is common for engineers to be managed by non engineers.
Perhaps in a manner like an Eagle Scout award, often obtaining a degree simply indicates the completion of an accomplishment. Within our culture and to a greater degree in other cultures, obtaining a degree is simply a measureable requirement.
John
RE: Engineering Degree
I have a friend who is a college professor that teaches a course for non-degreed people who wish to pass the P.E. exam. It is a challenge.
In my experience, "school of hard knocks" engineers are usually woefully short on math skills and understanding of even basic physics and chemistry, statics and dynamics, and materials science. For every "can't learn that in school", there is an equal or greater number of "shoulda learnt that in school"'s.
One thing I have noticed, at least in the mechanical design field, is that mechanical engineers seem to be generally under-employed and/or under-challenged to perform actual engineering tasks.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com
RE: Engineering Degree
If I had to do any math beyond 9th grade algebra I would have to call my son (in grad school). Rarely do we apply serious math.
I have hired non degreed engineers. I reject resume's that reflect a diploma mill degree.
John
RE: Engineering Degree
I think that you misunderstood their question about why you are applying without a degree. I think that the question was posed to see how you would react to it. They wanted to rattle your cage and see what falls out. They also wanted to see if you could explain why you think that you are qualified for the position.
I have had all kinds of strange questions asked to me on just about every job interview that I have had. Think about the movie Star Trek 2, specifically the "Kobiashi Maru" test. Their was no solution to it. It was a test of character.
Good Luck with your job hunting.
RE: Engineering Degree
To explain my position: I am a graduated engineer.
In my career on three continents I came across all kinds of managers. The worst possible case (in my opinion) is an engineer, who had nowhere else to go but management. I found some of those people so occupied doing their subordinates' work that the life around ther was a nightmare. The engineering degree does not mean that anyone is capable to lead people. It takes time and whole bunch of growing up.
I agree with JAE that the company might just WANT an engineer for that position. It is their right and you should not be discouraged by that. On the other hand there may be a legal requirement. But this is not my message to you. I am sure you have been invited to a number of interviews in your career and you know that what is tested there is sometimes more technical but "they" ALWAYS check how you would fit in their organization. Just be yourself in an interview. If you don't fit, believe me, you don't want to be there. Do your best and keep looking.
"leaders have followers, supervisors have subordinates..."
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: Engineering Degree
Like I implied, most mechanical engineering positions aren't really engineering at all, based on the demands placed on the engineers and the definition of engineering.
RE: Engineering Degree
In my opinion, having the degree will give you more credibility than a person that does not have one. I hate using the doctor analogy, but it seems to show how “you” would pick a professional over another.
I think it was 20/20 who did a report on doctors that did breast augmentation. The study was on how far women would go to get this service. 20/20 shadowed two doctors one in the USA and one in Mexico; the one in the USA achieved his medical degree and the one in Mexico did not. Both practice for like 15 years, but the one in the USA is much more expensive than the one in Mexico. To make a long story short, the women who can afford the USA doctor were very satisfied with the work the doctor did, even though it cost more. But, for the women who could not afford the American doctor went to Mexico and had a nightmarish experience because the pseudo doctor was not knowledgeable to medical college level, his knowledge was only from his experience over the 15 years of experimenting. So the moral of the investigation is don’t go to doctors that don’t have the proper credentials.
So the analogy is that for companies to hire engineers, a degree shows that this person was trained properly for the field that they are practicing in. For the non degree people, they have been really been experimenting over the years.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: Engineering Degree
However, in some cases, that's actually a benefit, since the manager won't get drawn into design issues and can maintain the big picture.
I've seen GM's and EngVP's start rambling on about design issues and attempting to solve the problem during a meeting. Talk about a waste of time.
TTFN
RE: Engineering Degree
As for your prospective employer's query, it seems alomost nonsensical. Obviously, somebody somehere saw enough potenetial to make it worth their expense to bring you out. If you made no secret about your lack of degree, it shouldn't even be a question. If you deliberately obscured this fact, shame on you for trying and shame on them for not noticing.
RE: Engineering Degree
I work in a specific discipline. As with many engineering groups mine is a matrix organization. For my daily work I report to a lead in my discipline. However a department manager hires and fires in my discipline. I will draw a box for my manager with a dotted line to another person who also reports to my manager.
The row with my manager includes about six discipline managers who all report to a design engineering manager. There is also a dotted line with an administrator for support who reports to the design engineering manager.
So far you can expect the hierarchy to be engineers. In some organizations there may be a separate drafting/design/CAD box. This box likely reports to the engineering manager but is not necessarily managed by an engineer.
The next level up includes design engineering as one box among many. The other boxes may include safety, QA/QC, accounting, business development, environmental, office services, safety, technical library, information technology, construction, procurement or assorted other service groups other than engineering. These boxes may report to an operations manager. This may be an engineer. However, it is as likely to be from finance, legal or construction.
Legal reports to the next higher level in the organization. By now it is not likely that they are engineers. But in the hierarchy, ultimately and indirectly I report to each person above me on the organizational chart.
John
RE: Engineering Degree
John Woodward
RE: Engineering Degree
Society puts value on degrees. Because of this, they look for degrees as primary evidence that you know what your doing (or should know what your doing).
Any education program can be done in the privacy of ones home provided you have the drive to plug your way through many books and work out many problems. College just makes you more disciplined to learn the material, thats all. It is nothing you can not learn on your own, with time and with the right materials.
RE: Engineering Degree
However bad many engineers are at management, there are still many engineers who do rise up through years of "technical" experience and eventually do become very good managers.
For every poor engineer who serves as a manager, I could probably point out a poor manager who is not an engineer and tries to manage other engineers. Mediocraty is everywhere but many times the cream does rise to the top.
RE: Engineering Degree
I appreciate the insight. I truly suspect the question was posed due to H.R.'s ignorance of my resume as they were never involved in the screening process and also the next time the question was posed to me (the 5th interview of the day with another engineering manager of a similar division), it was to get a reaction. When I posed the question about 30 years of experience versus a degree, he got defensive and stated I am not here to debate it, but just wanted to know what I told H.R. So, perhaps the point is moot, as my response put him on his heels a little and either he crossed me off the list or he liked the fact that I was willing to challenge the "norm". I will let you know.
As for those who feel that no degree is an indication of academic porwess and ultimately a base to ensure "technical understanding", I say that is a load of B.S. as I am sure you can all point to the academic within your ranks that couldn't engineer thier way out of a paper bag!!!!
RE: Engineering Degree
I think Degree is nothing but the evaluation of person.In 1 or 2 hours interview of job they can't find all credibility to do job.so thats why they acknowledge the degree as a measure of doing the job.
However, there are many graduates who don't get job without experience.AS experience does matter lot than a degree.
Shil
RE: Engineering Degree
There are those who have "experience" who can't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag.
Consider the criticality of hiring someone to do a job as being comparable to getting married. Would you marry someone after a single 8-hr interview?
TTFN
RE: Engineering Degree
This is not the comment of a professional who has 30 years of management experience. Is this the best argument that you have to make a decision between two people that has the same type of experience but one has a degree? Instead of lashing out, can you give me a reason why a person “with out” a degree with 30 years of experience is better over a person that “has” a degree (and maybe a MBA to boot) and has the “same” 30 years of experience?
Please don’t take this comment the wrong way, but as a professional rebuttal to your comment.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: Engineering Degree
RE: Engineering Degree
RE: Engineering Degree
Regarding the statement <<As for those who feel that no degree is an indication of academic porwess and ultimately a base to ensure "technical understanding", I say that is a load of B.S. as I am sure you can all point to the academic within your ranks that couldn't engineer thier way out of a paper bag!!!!>> This is a ridiculous statement. The professors in academic circles, if given the opportunity, could indeed engineer themselves out of most situations. Most consultants and engineering experts that you see or hear about in the news media come from academic institutions!!
I personally have no problem with any individual that has years of engineering experience, and wish the well as engineering associates or some other management title commensurate with pay (based on relevant experience). In my opinion, they are not qualified to be called Engineers.
My rationale is that the engineering degree implies a minimum level of educational competency. For those that believe engineering experience will compensate for the lack of a formal engineering education are fooling themselves. Sorry for the brutally honest opinion of the situation but that is life. You are never too old to go back and try for an engineering degree!
RE: Engineering Degree
I believe in hiring someone with more experience than a degree, but a degree bumps the pay.
RE: Engineering Degree
A practical nurse managing a staff of graduate MD's.
Silly, isn't it?
My worst esperience in the field was working in automotive with an engineering group top heavy in QC types with no solid engineering backgrounds. Some of the discussions were pitiful. I could write a book.
RE: Engineering Degree
In my career, I have had the privelege of working with or for many different types of managers, some were engineers and others weren't (by a longshot). What I take from that experience:
1. Engineers don't always make the best managers in certain situations, though they may have the knowledge that the job requires.
2. Non-engineers don't always make the best managers in knowledge-based or technology-related positions, though they may have the experience.
3. No matter the experience, no matter the degree, there is always an opportunity for the right person at the right time and the wrong person at the wrong time.
Now, before anyone gets too hot under the collar, let me state that those statements are in general, and from my experience. There are always exceptions to the rule (or to the example).
One of the best supervisors I ever had was not an engineer, though he managed an engineering group. In fact, he was not even a degreed individual. He had worked hard and learned all he did from the "school of hard knocks". When I worked for him, the state we were working in would not allow his company to use an "engineer" designation in his title. And one of my peers, a masters degree engineer, let him know quite often how his lack of an engineering degree made him inferior. However, in my opinion, 14 years later even, he was one of the best engineers I ever worked with. (Tale of the tape: today that manager is a Senior Manager in his company, the engineer is still an engineer with no hope of advancement.)
However, on the converse side of that, I've also worked with people who profess to be engineers and have that shingle on the wall proclaiming their expertise. But, their skills, their mindset, their activity, and their practical working knowledge is such they don't deserve the title nor the degree. (One in particular I think about had a pHD, which in his case meant "piled higher and deeper". Tale of the tape: he has been released from 5 jobs in 10 years due to his inabilities.)
Lastly, I think we all know of these situations where the personnel don't really fit the job. Or, where the job doesn't mesh with the people involved. Getting back to Theasy's question, my answer is this:
'Degrees and experience are intimately related. Experience teaches you how to best utilize your skills and affect and interact with those around you in a positive manner. A degree shows you have the commitment to enhance your experience and provides a modicum of professionality to your position. Experience gives you the ability to apply the knowledge a degree program will give you, even if it is simply finding information, solving a problem, or proving someone right. A degree will confer a sense of respect, responsibility, and credibility to your experience.'
In short, I agree with Metengr, experience plus a degree is the best combination (coupled with proven success). And, he is again right, you are never too old to go back to school. Harsh reality is a harsh world.
One more thing before I go (I know I'm long-winded). BEFORE I got my degree, I worked as an engineering aide/technician/intern and was told I did good work, but finish the degree. AFTER I got my degree, I had better job offers than my classmates because of my experience. BEFORE I got my PE licence, there were networks of peers and professionals that would not give me a second look. AFTER I got my PE licence, those networks and people opened up. BEFORE I gained my experience, I was always the grunt. AFTER I gained my experience, I still strive to gain more, though a REPUTATION now precedes me. PERCEPTION my friends is a most important ally in our continued endeavors.
My 2-cents...
~NiM
RE: Engineering Degree
"the person who has the most experience in day to day running of the ward manages the activities of the ward and relies on their technical staff to perform the technical function in the ward"
9 times out of 10 I'd rather be looked after by a nurse with 20 years of experience than a freshly qualified doctor.
Cheers
Greg Locock