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There are plenty of Engineers on the way
14

There are plenty of Engineers on the way

There are plenty of Engineers on the way

(OP)
I pulled this excerpt fron the NSPE web site...I thought it would make for interesting discussion here...


Some Members of Congress are seeking to attach a provision at the last minute to the must-pass bill designed to fund the federal government for the rest of this fiscal year. This provision would exempt up to 20,000 aliens holding a master's or higher degree from the current 65,000 cap on H-1B Visas for non-immigrants in any fiscal year. H-1B visas allow temporary employment by aliens in specialty occupations such as engineering. These programs have been used to displace higher-paid U.S. workers and replace them with lower-paid, often less-qualified, foreign temporary workers. NSPE supports keeping the current cap of 65,000 H-1B visas.

Please call your state's Senators and your Representative immediately and ask them to oppose raising the current cap on H-1B Visas.
Your message is simple:

Keep the cap on H-1B workers at the current level of 65,000 per-year.
This proposal to raise the cap has not been voted on by either the House or Senate this session. This issue is too complex to be added to the budget bill at the last minute without being vetted in congressional hearings.
The H-1B program has been abused in the past and this proposal would cost the jobs of U.S. engineers and scientists.
NSPE supports the use of Professional Engineers who are licensed and trained in our ethical practices. In NSPE's view, these visa programs decrease the use of PEs and allow engineers who are not trained in U.S. ethical practices to perform engineering services, which is detrimental to the public health, safety, and welfare.




Again, I copied the above from NSPE's web site...I am  writing my congressmen...what does everyone else think?

BobPE

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I guess that this is the result of a profession where only a small minority of the workforce is required to be licensed.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

(OP)
EddyC:

H -1B's can get licensed, there is nothing stopping them....

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I contacted my congressmen this morning.  I also, contacted the goverenor and the new governor elect to see if they would also contact the congressmen.

All US engineers should be concerned not only PEs.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way


If ALL engineers (& others who do engineering) were required to be licensed, people could not simply be imported and have engineering duties (& titles) lorded over to them by companies. Everyone would have to graduate from a recognized school, obtain suitable experience and pass the FE & PE exams. The way it is now, with some small legal exceptions, anyone can be an engineer as long as they can find a company that is willing to have them. The companies are free to decide for themselves who is an engineer.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

(OP)
EddyC:

You make good points....It seems from my knowledge of the H-1B program that many of the "engineers" enter industry or the "engineering" fields of the computer industry, where, you are right, anyone can be an "engineer."  Considering this, it does seem to make sense that the PE becomes a tool to have a level playing field for engineers (not quotations) to practice.  We know, through this site, the disdane for PE's by many in the industry.  It comes down to a fine point in my mind, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink...well why shouldn't we enforce standards that determine who can be at the trough??  If we don't it will surely run dry...meaning we will be looking at 2 to 10 dollars an hour to compete...I am all for competation, don't get me wrong, but the service I provide as an engineer, no one else but an engineer can provide...This has inherent value, value that cannot be provided for those wages..

BobPE

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

The problem isn't just in "Industry". Its also in the Consulting side of engineering. Plenty of people are allowed to do engineering as long as they are employed/supervised by a PE. My father is a doctor who was educated overseas before he immigrated to the US. In order to practice as a doctor, he was forced to work under the supervision of a US licensed MD until he could be allowed to take the doctors license exam. He was told up front that he would not be allowed to practice as an MD indefinitely without passing the license exam. His job was contingent on obtaining his license in a finite amount of time. Now take a look at engineering in contrast. I work for a Consulting company. We have numerous individuals who have been doing engineering for most of their adult lives. They are not licensed nor have they even taken or applied to take the PE exam. As you can see, this makes engineering quite different than medicine or law, with respect to licensing.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Copied from the Hindu Times

[quote http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_1116045,0015002000000000.htm]

20,000 more H-1B visas, cap remains
    
S. Rajagopalan
Washington, November 21    
    
Here's some good news for H-1B visa seekers. The US Congress has just cleared a legislative measure throwing up an additional 20,000 of these coveted work visas.

But there is one important caveat. The new visas will be reserved for foreign students passing out of American universities with master's or doctorate degrees.

Also, the annual cap will remain at 65,000. The proposed H-1B visas for up to 20,000 eligible foreign students will be treated as an exemption from the cap.

The measure, preceded by months of hectic lobbying by US industry and staunch opposition by labour groups, could benefit several thousand Indians who are either waiting in American campuses or back at home.

Many of them had earlier lost out because the competition was so intense that the slashed annual quota of 65,000 H-1B visas was snapped up on day one of the new American fiscal year on October 1.

The new measure is a part of the $ 388 billion Omnibus Appropriations Bill that was passed by Congress late on Saturday night.

The US's technology industry and immigration groups have been seeking a revision of the H-1B cap ever since it was slashed from 195,000 visas a year to 65,000 from October 2003.

[/quote]


I can not find anything in the US press about this. Is congress ashamed to admit that they will be putting more US engineers and scientists out of work or under employed?  The current is is flawed. adding this provison on to a $388 billion omnibus Bill at the last minute without being vetted in congressional hearings is wrong.



 

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

(OP)
I see your point EddyC, but I would disagree, there are numerous technicians and aids for both lawyers and doctors, all of which contribute to the decisions made by the licensed doctor or lawyer, and many of these people have no desire to be a lawyer or doctor..If any of these people practiced law or midicine, they would be punished under the law.... The same is true for engineering as you pointed out.  I am in consulting too, and we are limited to the amount of work we can do by the number of PE's that we have.  Often times we do multiple projects for one client and we just do not have the PE's to serve as project engineer/manager, and the clients point this out as they are usually quite knowledgable about how they want their project teams constructed.  Now that said, if we could get H-1B PE's, make no mistake, we would...and would offer lower salaries....but that is business and taking advantage of the system put in place means increased margins...Now the salaries of these H-1B engineers would be lower, but the credentials they would have would naturally increase their value and I would expect their salaries will rise as well over a short period of time...

I can't see the same picture for industry...a flood of H-1B "engineers" would hurt the engineers that practice in  indusrty...I can't see the value of this from the engineering prespective, but I guess I can from the accounting point of view....It just seems like a lousy way to run a profession....Without the benchmark of a PE, there would be no mechanism to elevate salaries.

this is a good conversation...I was hoping it would get some play....

BobPE

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

4
Well Rich2001, OK, this is what I want you to do. Write to your congressman and get him to eliminate these HB1s.

I will then offer them jobs in my country, and your companies will hire us to do the job that the HB1s would have done anyway. It will mostly be done by the HB1 guys you didn't want to hire directly.

This is not a joke, we are short of engineers, and at least half our engineering is done for export.

Whilst I wish we had an engineering trades union with teeth, so that only people I like can be engineers, it does not really seem to solve the real, whole world, issues.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Oh, and obviously I meant H-1B not HB1.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

<<< This provision would exempt up to 20,000 aliens holding a master's or higher degree…>>>

My perception is that when these politicians do a study of how many engineers will be needed in the work force they will look at the number of engineers graduating and the engineers with their degrees in the work force.  They are not taking in account the number of non-degree engineers into their study.  From the view of engineers graduating from ABET colleges, this rate is starting to slow down, hence the argument that we are starting to dwindle in the number of degreed engineers in this country (USA).  I feel that this is the reason why the politicians are making provisions to let people in with their master’s degree or higher.  

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Was there a study done and debated in congress? - No! I would not have a problem if a careful and critical review was done in congressional hearings, but it was not.  This provision was added to the must pass Omnibus Bill.  These issue to too complex not to have open congressional hearings!

The current H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to import foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. Without serious safeguards to protect American workers from being replaced and is abused to provide cheap foreign labor.

H-1B workers continue to flood a terrible job market. During 2001 and 2002, 799,100 H-1B visas were issued and renewed despite a 6 percent national unemployment and 8 percent in Silicon Valley, up to 18% in the Ohio Valley. Many highly trained Americans engineers and scientists remain unemployed or underemployeed.

Congress needs to increase domestic worker safeguards, significantly reduce the number of H-1B visas issued, and crackdown on visa violations and fraud.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

We can disagree about the wisdom of these changes, but US citizens should all agree on is that such sweeping changes to immigration law should not be made though a deceiving procedural move designed to avoid public scrutiny.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I agree, and thinking about it 20000 engineers is a very big number, in comparison with the size of the industry as a whole. I think you are right to think that Congress has failed you and other engineers.

None the less, how do your companies cope with having to employ more expensive USAn engineers, when the rest of the world pays its engineers less? This must have an effect on product development costs, and hence the profitability of manufacturing. To give an example, a typical car has about 2000 dollars of product development in it. If your engineers (and so on) cost 20% more, then that is going to be probably 2300 dollars, that is a 300 dollar penalty. The way the car market is that may well represent the total profit to the manufacturer.

So, if you won't accept wages in line with those of the rest of the world, and you won't let cheaper engineers into the country, then the domestic manufacturing industry either offshores its PD work, or packs up, or demands government subsidies.





Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Greg,

If all things were equal, you're right. But here's another take on it:

My current employer has quite a few foreign (non-USA) nationals in his employ. They are indeed willing to work for less pay than USA born & educated engineers. Their productivity, however, is far less than domestic engineers, basically washing out the cost savings of their lower salaries. Many of my colleagues question the wisdom of utilizing these individuals to perform engineering.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

This immigration measure is a  good example of how our system of "market democracy" works.

a) engineers do not have an organization that will accumulate funds to finance a lobbying effort to persuade legislators. ( If you think writing to a congressman will influence their vote, then I have a got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn).

b)industries that do wish to lower their cost of engineers do have effective lobbying organizations, and some individual industries are large enough such that they can affort to lobby independently of other organizations.

c) Most congressman and senators must finance their reelection campaigns using monies from lobbyests- they are dependent on this source of funds. The rationale for aligning their votes to be consistent with the opinions of their financiers doesn't need to be too sophisticated- its the system, dummy.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

EddyC, for every underperforming foreign born engineer I can find you a USA born one.

I have occasionally challenged people to find objective evidence showing a variation in engineering productivity with nationality, no one has managed so far. But if I were to set up an engineering bucket-shop it would have a lot of Russians in it, to reveal my own prejudices. I think Boeing had the same idea.


Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

H1B is a hot item here in India and you can imagine the craze that the cap for the whole year was just exhausted on the first day (1 October). Many of H1Bs are talented professionals and if somebody thinks that these can't get PEs in their course, please get realistic.

And all this is fuelled by a single factor - high salaries in USA. Not just USA, migration to Europe, Canada, Aus.-NZ is along similar trend but for odd reasons I haven't heard them complaining?

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

to all I accept. But there is a means to an end.  You employ cheap labour, that means redundancy to others and buying power gone, here and replaced somewhere else your market is not expanding just changing.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

OK, let's do it one more time.

1) In order to remain internationally competitive companies in the USA need to have either a similar cost structure to those overseas, or government subsidies for exports, or products that are clearly superior to the alternatives.

2) USAn labor at all levels is more highly paid than the rest of us.

3) Product development costs are largely a function of the cost of an engineer, and his productivity.

4) Modern manufacturing techniques, and lack of novelty, make PD costs an increasing proportion of the overall cost of a product.

5) Productivity of PD in terms of design work done per hour is reasonably uniform around the first world - the tools are available to all. The same applies to the manufacturing process, the tools are well known.

6) In order to resolve 1,2,3,4 and 5 you either institute protectionism in some form for USAn domestic manufacturesr, or allow them to alter their cost base. One way of doing this is to reduce the average cost of employing an engineer. One way of doing /that/ is to import an engineer from overseas who will work for lower wages. Another alternative is to offshore the engineering.

OK, I think that is reasonably objective and logical chain of facts and consequences. Please, correct it where it is wrong.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Brilliant, you are spot on at stating the obvious.  But what about relationships, are you telling me that they will be the same.  What about service?  I was reading an interesting point the other day, its not the initial point of overseas contact but in fact their supply chain that becomes dodgy. I'm holding my reservation at the moment because I think this whole thing will fail on some really simple technicality. like people, or economics.  Lets face it while economics drives it, it can also kill it.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Chartered Structural Engineer
£28-34000
Poole UK

Who in their right mind will go for this.  Will an overseas engineer cater for the UK building regs?

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

" Will an overseas engineer cater for the UK building regs?
".

I don't see why not. We design cars for local markets all around the world. We have a homologation department who spend their lives making sure that we are legal in each state and territory.

Now, whether anyone who is qualified would want to work for $US 61k is a good point. That is a UK problem and is one of the reasons I live and work in Australia.

"But what about relationships, are you telling me that they will be the same." Coordinating work across different time zones is a slight pain, but with some flexibility in working hours it is achievable.

You are right about supply chains. Obviously JIT goes out the window when you have six weeks stock trailing across the Pacific in containers. That's six weeks of defective supply that will need rectifying, and you'll have to air freight replacement parts in. Of course by then the initial buyer will be working on something else, he'll already have his slap on the back for succesfully outsourcing that contract.

Oh, sometimes I find it helps to state the obvious, it reveals assumptions that may not be valid!

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I didn't mean for my comment to sound obtuse, your views are excellent.  I except the fact that large scale production has a definate advantage in out-sourcing.  But there is a huge market that cannot be serviced from overseas. The " I need it now" brigade and the "can you just" group will always have a place close to the requirement.  

When I was training as a manager years ago, we had an economic specialist who predicted that the UK would become a third world state in the future due to the prosperity of the then 3rd world states.  I think your views are shared across the UK with the work problem and moving to OZ.  We have a major exodus of skills to your neck of the woods as we speak. Now whether you have the capacity is yet to be seen or will you find yourselves in the same boat because of the bloody pom.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Today's news indicates congress is considering the Microsoft proposal to eliminate all limits on H1B visas for foreign students with Masters degrees. Apparently the "hitech" industries need new engineers with graduate degrees, and there is a paucity of US born engineers with graduate degrees in EE and Computer science.

The US colleges offer foreign students a visa as an inducement to enter US colleges, which forms the backbone of the college - based research industry ( or racket, depending on your mindset). These research projects are largely finded by grants from the gov't , and partially by large industrial grants.

These foreign students either replace or displace US college graduates that are not entering the same graduate curricula- most US college grads have large loans that they need to pay off ASAP, and thus cannot afford the luxury of a grad school delay.  Basically, the foreign colleges are used as a "farm team" to source grad students to US colleges, and these graduates from US grad schools are the ones that the H1B visa system is supposedly targeting. Many ofthe foregin educated students graduated from schools that were finaced by the state, ie socialist economies to some extent.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

davefitz and EddyC,

I would prefer not to enter into the muddy waters of who-funds-what debate. Nor into the capitalist-socialist divide which is for namesake in the present world scenario and the difference is blurring anyway as I see it (most evidently in Eng-Tips posts, in threads like this).

You are right in stating that industry is primarily pushing the motion that will allow increased intake of foreigners into USA. This indicates industries' willingness  to employ more from outside, maybe because of higher expectations of locals or low efficiency or low educational standards.

So much for the un-productivity of foreigners...

Bye.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Actually, there is a commonality between the engineers complaint against more H1B visas and the current complaint by US schrimp farmers against imported schrimp ( anti-dumping surcharges).  IN the case where the foreign students are from a society which pays for their students' college education  ( as opposed to the US practice of students financing their own eduction via loans), the use of H1B visas for students from such countries could be viewed as "dumping" in the sense that their "costs of production" are artificially low and unfairly competing against US students.

Of course, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that US engineeers would organize a legal case to defend their "property right" and oppose such "dumping".  

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I plan to backup to a technician job. I give up
25% of my pay but get the same health insurance.
I don't worry about scheduals and politics.
I clock in and clock out and get overtime!!
Let the ambitous immigrants take these engineering
jobs.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I think the far greater problem for US engineers and the whole  middle class in general is the rampant outsourcing  of these jobs to societies that pay a fraction of the salaries and benefits.

If this continues, the US will be a welfare state with only two classes- the poor and the rich; the latter representing corporate America will flourish even though their per capita worldwide profit will shrink, the total profits worldwide will be equal or greater than present. Corporate greed has no bounds.

I think that in view of this, Americans should buy only American made products and boycott any company that outsources our jobs, now while we still have some clout.

Moreover, it seems to me that our engineering societies including the IEEE and ASME, for example do not do enough to promote our best interests and maybe corporate America has some hand in their feeble response.

Finally, when you talk about the cost impact of "high priced
" engineers on the total cost of a product, it is minscule compared with even advertising costs. A superior engineering team could easily blow away the cheaper competition and has historically been the hallmark of a free  robust, and creative society.And what about the long term security of the US. If you discourage some of the great minds from pursuing scientific endeavors because you outsourced their wouldbe jobs, then where will the 21st century breakthroughs come from to find solutions to starwars, space and environmental type projects to protect us . From India,China Russia, UK?  
Wake up America, it may already be too late!

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Well then, if you agree with your last paragraph, all we are waiting for is the superior engineering team to get its act together and blow away the competition.

As I have demonstrated from REAL figures, the cost of developing a car is typically equal to the manufacturer's profit on that vehicle. It is not an insignificant cost, it is about the same as the direct labor content for example.

I hope you have sold all your shares in businesses that have outsourced their engineering or manufacturing (or, I suppose anything else) and you have made sure that your pension fund has done the same? Otherwise you are benfiting from outsourcing.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

If you took the time to READ the second paragraph. you would see that I said corporate America profits would be "equal or greater "
And, by the way where do you get the data to back up your claim of cost of development.
Finally, if that's the case why aren't the Chinese and Russians competing in the world auto market? It seems their costs should be fractonally lower.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

if you cant look after your own who can you look after.  

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

The Chinese are coming in the auto market. Three years before they are self sufficent, five years before all the other cheap exporters face stiff competition in most markets, ten years before they dominate. The Russians are behind the eight ball in too many ways to catch up.

Typical engineering cost of a new program : 0.5 billion to 6 billion dollars (check the trade press for confirmation)

Typical sales figures for a model : 50000-500000 per year

Typical life of a model: 4-8 years

In my part of the industry the lower end of all those ranges applies. Profit per vehicle is published in many places, more or less accurately.

I did read your second para, so, are you benefiting from offshoring  - ie do you directly or indirectly invest in companies that offshore? If you are it seems a bit hypocritical to complain about it.

I do not regard off-shoring as evil. I see it as a transfer of activity to those areas best able to provide it.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  It's not the only factor but a big one.  If the employers insurer's on both sides of the water did their jobs rather than just taking the money they would require PE status.  

In order to be insured an MD requires qualifications that consist of theoretical exams and certified job experience.   A driver needs a driving licence to be insured (in theory at least).  An engineer needs none or only a woolly statement that is easily circumvented to be insured by his employer.

Look at the risk. Even the worst or unluckiest MDs or drivers in the land might kill a couple of people in a lifetime.  An engineer has the potential to kill hundreds in a single error.
 
I know I am old and cynical but something does not add up. I always thought insurance was to cover risk or have I missed something.



RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

3
flamby:

Canada is awash in engineering immigrants.  Just visit www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm if you are confused about this issue- you'll see that Canada experienced a 12-fold increase in engineering immigration in a decade where our economy and jobforce grew by only 20%.  Rates have stabilized near 2001-2002 levels, generating a massive cumulative over-supply.  Thousands of these poor folks come here expecting a high paying engineering job and end up working in factories or driving taxis.  Montreal, Vancouver and particularly Toronto, are hardest hit because the vast majority of recent immigrants choose to settle in these major population centres.  54% of the "skilled immigrant" class of economic immigrants choose to settle in a city with only 17% of Canada's jobs.

I have no problem with immigration at current levels.  Canada's a great place to live and may be worth taking a lousy job to have the opportunity to raise a family here.  Canada's a remarkably accepting place for immigrants in general, and the engineering profession has been doing a surprisingly good job of integrating the elligible members of this recent wave of "skilled workers".  The only problem I have is with people speaking to potential immigrants or potential engineering graduates without the actual information about the supply and demand situation in our profession- so many idiot simply assume there's a general shortage of engineers here, without even bothering to look up the stats or to find out the outcomes of the most recent wave of immigrants.  Even worse, I hate the liars who deliberately spread this false hope of a general shortage of "skilled workers", luring prospective immigrants here to certain disappointment and regret- often in an effort to line their own pockets by keeping engineering salaries low and working conditions poor.

As to competing against engineers in India and China and other developing countries, I'm totally OK with that too, within the limits of the protection of public safety from defective engineering.  Competition from the developing world is inevitable- protectionism is rendered nearly impossible by means of the Internet, even if you wanted to try it.  But these engineers would probably fare better in their own countries given the current oversupply situation, given the comparative advantage of paying living expenses in their home country versus here.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Fortunately, though, the number of foreigners coming to the US for graduate school is starting to fall.

Paul

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

Though my name may appear to be foreign sounding, I am a US citizen, born in the USA, and working towards becoming a professional engineer (PE). I will be obtaining my PE within another 18 months. I am also former military.

The main problem that I see with engineering here in the USA is a combination of things.

First within the USA alone there are too few new engineers being graduated to fill the open opportunities. This will hurt us if not addressed.

Also, many people in the USA do not view engineering and manufacturing as a glamourous job, and would rather have a job that is more of a desk job. Engineering is not viewed as a cushy desk job. Many of those with technical degrees view working in manufacturing as beneath them.

I have also talked with many people and they tell me that engineering is a good profession, yet they think the training and education is too difficult for them. They are not used to all of the analysis and math required.

The average layperson does not really understand what an engineer does, yet they know that an engineers are professionals with good careers and jobs.

These factors create a shortage of engineers in the USA. Whenever there is a demand, there will be some way of supplying the demand. Right now, the supply is with the foreign trained engineers. Until we address misconceptions in Western society, more and more engineers will be foreigners, as it is these foreign countries that are graduating the greatest number of engineers.

Rahul Laxman Iyer

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

moltenmetal,
Good post.
Regards.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

2
I just joined the list after having stumbled upon it accidentally.  I'm interested in the outsourcing debate.  

There's a very outspoken critic named Norm Matloff, of the UC Davis Computer Science Department (might be the chairman, I forget).  I love this guy.  You can subscribe to his newsletter if you like and get regular commentary on the issue.  I would have posted his email address, but I don't know if it is allowed by the list.

According to him,  the real motivation behind h1b/l1 visas and outsourcing is the what many of us already knew: cheap labor!  

As for calling one's congressman, that's probably a waste of time.  Politicians are beholden to corporate interests and corporations want cheap labor.  Who are the politicians going to listen to, the American worker who just lost his job, or the American businessman who funded his campaign?  I don't care how many pundits or politicians get up and tell me how good outsourcing is for America - when well paying, knowledge-based technical jobs are lost in large numbers, it's BAD for the country.  Spare me the arguments - I've heard them all (lower prices, making way for the magical jobs of the future, blah, blah, blah).  

I understand the need for international trade of goods and services, so please don't think I'm advocating complete protectionism.  What I am saying is that the country needs to look after its own some more, before we reach the day when we've farmed everything out the the lowest bidder worldwide and can no longer grow our own industrial/technological base.

RE: There are plenty of Engineers on the way

I know this is right.  Cheap labour is the driver here to in the UK. I visit SME'S regularly and of those that employ migrants all without exception do one of two things:

1) Cry wolf, we couldn't find the skills locally.  Really meaning we couldnt find anyone locally prepared to work for the package on offer.

2) Give free board and loggings and pay no overtime and just above the minimum wage.

In all of these cases the boss and business are doing very well.  The number of times I hear the boss say, its about paying my staff as little as possible and paying myself as much as possible.  It really is depressing, in just under a year I have not met 1 company that truely breaks this mould.  There is no entrepreneurial leadership here what so ever.

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