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Is it worth it to get a PE license?
27

Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
Really… how worth is it to get licensed? All it says is you can take a test very, very quickly (at least in California). Is it really the mark of a professional? I do professional level work already, but don't really get any credit for it. I see my bosses just tearing their hair out on a daily basis regarding project troubles. But since they have the stamp, they have responsible charge. I ask myself: "Why should I want a PE if that's what happens? Is the extra pay and 'prestige' worth it?" I have to say an unequivocal no. How does a "P.E." after your name dictate to anyone what level of dedication you have? I have heard the terms such as advanced leadership and management skills, higher dedication, integrity, and creativity connected with getting a license. Personally, I think that is a load because I am more dedicated and infinitely more creative than most so-called professionals in my division. But, since I didn't pass a test that is more a measure of problem solving speed than that of problem solving skill, I am not allowed the label "P.E." You can keep it. You can keep your project problems, I will just estimate your project to within 3% of the lowest bid, write up your special provisions and provide plans that are clear and consistent with all the other documents. Why would any boss want to lose an employee who can do that for the "noble" cause of getting a P.E. license? So I can get a job higher up in the company and get bleeding ulcers and migraine headaches from dealing with the project problems? Or go to another company and get problems there?
For those of you who are doubters, I have taken the CA PE exam four times, but still have not passed the seismic portion because I am just not fast enough. I did practice exams, and finished with an average time of 3 hours with 70 percent correct. You're allowed 2 hours for the exam. Therefore, you see the dilemma. I can do the work, but not quickly. When the test becomes more of a test of skill than of speed, I might try again. But until then, I have given up on it. Besides if I were to take it again and pass, I would do what I could to not let anyone know that I passed it. They might expect more out of me than the 110 percent than I already give in my job.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

5
The question of whether its worth it or not is YOURS to answer - not sure why you are asking this forum in the manner you did.... sounds like you already either

a) have your mind made up that you prefer the background of design projects and don't wish to take on more responsibility (or can't), or

b)  you are simply using this forum to dump out some frustrations....

not sure that's much help but I'm also not sure what you are really asking.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

...but also - I'd say that for me - getting a PE and an SE was worth it in that it ALLOWS me to advance IF I WANT TO....in other words - it gave me choice in my career options.

I've never looked at it as specifically anointing me as some super designer - that has to come from my work effort and integrity.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Perhaps you should consider a career change.  One of the reasons for having timed exams is to test one's ability to work under pressure.  This is necessary for the statutory mandate of licensed engineers to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
Ron, last time I checked.. I wasn't required to design an entire project in 2.4 minutes. (time for each question on the seismic exam)  I can handle the stress just fine.  Being asked to solve fifty problems in two hours just to get a bigger paycheck is just not gonna happen.

I am just wondering if having a PE is really with the $500 or so dollars you have to spend each time the PE rolls around. (if you don't happen to live near a large city where its offered) or if its worth the headaches of being one of the higher-ups and getting a bigger paycheck.

I really love my job. I love doing what I do. What I don't like being pushed into something I have expressed no interest in, and being told I'm basically worthless for not wanting to be one of the higher-ups. People who go into supervisory positions and upper management, aside from getting the larger paycheck, become a chairbound paperpushers who lose the freedom of designing. What some don't realize is that the grunts like myself do the actual work. The PE's just review it, comment, sign it and get the credit, just because they can.  I got into engineering so I can do the design, and not be one of the people who just ordering other people around.

I can advance in my position just fine. There are plenty of places who want good designers.  Not every place wants superviors.  If they don't like the fact that I don't have a PE, I don't work there.  

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

What is the trend today? When I graduated in 1975, taking the test was an option but few of my classmates took it. The opinion then was that you only needed it for civil engineering or if you wanted to be a consultant. In most of the places I have worked at it would not make any difference. Promotions and pay raises were due to other reasons, not the PE or advanced degrees.

However, I have heard that some colleges require students to take it before graduating. Times have changed I guess.

John Woodward

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Hey Jaydn:

Welcome to the real world.  From your posts, it is obvious that you don't understand the basics of how it works.  Those managers that you ridicule are responsible for bringing work into your firm and thus providing you with work.  Their ability to attact and retain clients not only keeps themselves employed but you and your colleauges as well.

Believe it or not, one frequently does have to "design" on a project in a few minutes when dealing with a demanding client.

BTW, bleeding ulcers are not caused by stress, but by a bacteria.  The Nobel Prize was awarded to the discoverer.


       

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jay165...that's right.  Those who strive to obtain licensing are rewarded with more responsibility and more opportunity, as it should be.  I'm proud of the fact that I'm licensed and it was NEVER a question in my mind from the time I chose engineering as a career.

Other professions are more harsh than engineering in lack of career advancement.  For example, most accounting firms will tell you up front that you will become a CPA within or certain time frame or you'll find some other place to work.  The same is true of attorneys, doctors, and other licensed professionals.

The more licensed individuals that work in a firm, the more opportunity that firm has to attract new work and clients to keep the "designers" busy as jay165 said.  Without that group of licensed engineers, you wouldn't have anything to "design" if you're in a firm that offers services to the public.  

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

It is not my intention to start converting anybody to my point of view. I am an engineer. I am a registered professional engineer.
Why?
Because I had a choice and exercised it. Did the registration change me? NO!

I am still the same me. Dedicated to my job as I always was. I take a pride in what I do and I love to seal my work, giving it final touch with my seal. I am not expecting other people to respect me more because of my professional status. I want them to know that I am for all those thigs that engineering stands for.
Ethics, Tenacity, Diligence, Knowledge and Common Sense.

If it does not appeal to any of you... "honestly, dear, I don't give a damn".

I wish you all luck and satisfaction no matter if you have that little stamp or not.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137,
You've answered your own question. "Besides if I were to take it again and pass, I would do what I could to not let anyone know that I passed it. They might expect more out of me than the 110 percent than I already give in my job." is an absolutely ridiculous statement. It is clear that you're not posing a legitimate question to this forum and just venting for your inability to pass the exam.

The best boss I ever had took it 6 times.  He had the same problem with time as you, but he never, never belittled the profession, the license, others who had passed, or the process to obtain the license.  Why? Because people who do that are not professionals, regardless of whether they have a license or not.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I, on the other hand, belittle the exam because I got the highest score in the state and I just ain't that smart.  Something is clearly wrong.

Plenty wrong with the PE licensing system.  Doesn't make the system worthless though.

Having been through the process, I don't feel that the path the system made me take was any kind of demonstration of my capacity to do the kind of work I actually do.  So I'm disillusioned--I almost think it should be totally resume- and portfolio-based, bag the exam completely.  It's harder to standardize, but it would be more meaningful.  (Though jay165 has a point about being able to design under pressure.)

All that said, I still think the license is a valuable thing, and not just because I'm required to have one to get anywhere.  That extra liability is, in a way, a good thing.  We NEED to approach all our decisions as if they could come back on our heads--perhaps literally, like the old story of the designer needing to stand under the structure while it's load-tested.

On a more practical note, jadyn137, have you taken prep courses?  I know if I ever decide to get a Structural Engineering licence, there's no way I could pass just trying to prepare on my own.  I would need to sign up for a several-month course, at least.  Also, if you have that much trouble taking the tests, have you ever been tested for a learning disability?  You might be able to get a time dispensation.  (Note to everyone else--this is not the place for PC or anti-PC rants about the concept about a learning disability.)

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Get the PE.  Don't worry about additional responsibilities.  Where does that crap come from anyway?  Take the FE (EIT) and P&P review classes.

Take the FE exam while in school.  Although few instructors recommended and few other students were interested, my older son took the fundamentals exam this year.

You never know when you may need the PE to land a job or lead a project.

John

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

It amazes me that people don't take the FE exam in school--especially in civil engineering, where a PE later on is almost mandatory.  I guess it really varies from school to school.  In my department, we all took it.  It wasn't a requirement for graduation, but we almost thought of it as such.

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

HgTX....same here.  It was a badge of honor to have passed it before graduation.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

The PE license system may have flaws, but you could look at it as proof of having the minimum skills required for a good engineer.  You can still have PE's that are not great engineers.  

Just like everyone with a medical license is not necessarily a good doctor.  Being good at a profession is more than just technical accuracy.  

But technical accuracy and understanding is the "bare minimum" before considering someone to be a licensed professional.  

If a PE license is not important, then why not go to a "doctor" that is not licensed?  Would you hire an "attorney" that could not pass the bar?  No, because that is the bare minimum qualification that you would expect from one of those professionals before retaining them.  Why should clients accept any less from engineers?

For the record, I'm not a PE yet, just putting in my time.  Passed the FE, and I've got one more year before taking the PE.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

The folks on this forum bring out a lot of good points. I wouldn't utilize the services of a doctor or lawyer who wasn't licensed. However, as an individual, I will probably never need to utilize the services of an engineer on my personal behalf. This is one of the main differences between engineering and the other professions. The "public" doesn't really utilize engineers. Its businesses and corporations who do. In addition, I have a PE but I sometimes regret it, as I have an employer who on occassion asks me to stamp substandard drawings.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Hey EddyC:

I guess when the "public" crosses a bridge over a river or rides in a elevator, that doesn't count as "use".

As for your other comment about stamping substandard drawings: not only is it a violation of any states' laws regarding PE ethics, it is morally wrong as well.

Do all of us in the profession a favor: FIND ANOTHER LINE OF WORK!        

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jay165,

I think you misunderstood my post. Two Points:

a) I said that my employer on occasion asks me to stamp substandard drawings. I don't comply with his request and I hate the fact that I am even put in such a situation. I feel that no one should be put in such a situation.

b) I am a member of the public. I didn't procure the services of the engineer who designed any of the bridges that I drive over. The individual(s) who did procure these services are free to choose the lowest bidder of the engineering services and have no liability whatsoever from the results. Its someone else who pays the price if the bridge fails. When I procure the services of a doctor or lawyer, its for me, not someone else. I therefore have a vested interest in choosing the best provider and not just the cheapest.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

EddyC:

Awarding engineering services to the lowest bidder on any federal (and to my knowledge) any state public works project is illegal.  It's called the Brooks Act.

Look it up.    

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

One of the other points that I was trying to make was the difference between engineering and law & medicine. In engineering the "service procuring agent"(developer, contractor, owner, etc.) and the "end user"(tenant, worker, public, etc.) are normally separate entities. In medicine and law they are usually the same entity. This can have a dramatic effect upon the low cost vs. quality selection.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Is it worth it?  It depends if it will get you more money, or a desired promotion, or something else desirable.  I'm not registered, never tried, probably never will.  I don't need it and being registered won't get me anything, so why waste my time.  If something happens that changes that fact - that being registered will provide me a benefit, then I may do it.

But the question of "is it worth it?" can only be answered by you for your specific case.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

2
Those in doubt about the value of the PE, read DB Steinman's piece "Bridges Over Broad Waters." This was written in coop. with Watson, publ by Erdmanns, Grand Rapids, MI. I have re-read this several times.

Steinman organized engineering as a profession and helped institute the PE. He battled with architects over the professional status of engineers. If you left it up to architects, engineers would be relegated to the ranks of the trades.

Proud to be a graduate ME and PE.
(I have a signed letter from DB Steinman after receiving a scholarship from the DB Steinman Fund for eng students, since paid back.)

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

plasgears,

I tried looking on Amazon for the book you mentioned, "Bridges Over Broad Waters". They don't list it. Do you happen to know where I could find a copy? It sounds like an interesting read.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

EddyC,
I tried Amazon also, and found it out of print. The last time I read the book it came from the library. Try your local library. They often procure from distant locations for your benefit.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Correction:

Highways Over Broad Waters
by William Ratigan
Erdmanns,Grand Rapids, MI

It's a biography of David Steinman tracing his bridge building experiences and challenges over the years. He organized the engineering curric. at City College of NY after earning his CE at Columbia. He later was instrumental in developing the PE exam in the US.

One of the most interesting sub-stories is the growing animosity between him and Othmar Ammann, a co-worker under the tutelage of Lindenthal, the designer of the Hell Gate Arch bridge in NY.

Steinman's impassioned suggestions about how to stabilize dancing suspension bridges went unheeded. The rest is history. Ammann's Whitestone bridge in NYC was similar to the Tacoma, and it danced in the wind. So did the George Washington bridge and others. This was the era of building bridges without stiffening trusses. Aerodynamic interaction (Karman vortices) with the plate girders caused the instability. Steinman stopped building new bridges until he formulated the mathematical theory of designing bridges to survive wind intereaction. The Whitestone bridge was later reinforced with stays and add-on stiffening trusses.

I recently crossed the Whitestone and was surprised to see no stiffening trusses. They were recently removed and replaced with aerodynamic fairings similar to the European model. The original roadway structure and pavement will be replaced with light weight structure and paving.

Another good read that thoroughly covers the subject is:

Engineers of Dreams
by Henry Petroski, CE, Duke Univ.
Knopf, 1995

Higly recommended for all engineers. You will want to have your own copy; I have re-read it many times.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
I think rather than upset my bosses again, who were very upset with me that I didn't even take the exam(guaranteed failure) this past time. Im just going to study for it, take and pass it, so I can get him and other PE's in the office to be quiet and not belittle or riducule me for not wishing to advance my career further.  I would have to hope that there is more to being a PE other than you get to sign off and take credit for the hardwork of subordinates. I found that there is no way to block them from finding out if I passed the exam, so there is no way I can get around that.  Oh well.. I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.   Of course... I could always "forget" to send in my refile application or not include the check....

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Oh, ferchrissake.  It's not that bad, and you're way too old to sound so sulky.  Go back and reread this thread.

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

3
jadyn137:

there is a lot more to the PE, sounds like you may not be surrounded by the brightest candles in the box at your place of employement...

The PE is about you, not about others.  If you do not get your PE then the subordinates at work couldn't do anything and would no longer have a job.  And you don't take credit for the work, you take responsibility, there is a big difference.  If you can't get assistance in understanding the responsibility, it may be a good time to reach for help outside your place of employement to help you understand what your responsibilities will be.

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
You ever think that maybe I don't think Im ready for that kind of responsibility?  Ever think that someone might not even want that kind of responsibility heaped on them, no matter how much of an increase in pay or prestige it is?  I'm not really a risk taker, and it seems lately that no matter if I follow the specifications to the letter, its always rejected by the higher ups as wrong, but if the PE does the same exact thing as I do, its somehow fully correct.  How would I be able to trust my judgement later as a P.E. when everything I seem to do, no matter what is wrong?  Everyone beginning to see why I don't want the P.E. but will most likely take the test and study like hell just to pass it and make the bosses shut the heck up

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

2
Well, that's pretty easy. Take an example of yours that was rejected, and compare it with a similar example by the PE that was accepted. Discuss the differences you find with the PE.

Remember, it is possible to choose the right solution via the wrong reasoning, and you may be (unfairly) required to state assumptions that are taken as read in the case of the PE.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137,

I think that you should absolutely get your PE if you are able to. There will always be employers & clients who will ask you to use your PE stamp in inappropriate ways. There are also employers & clients who won't. Gravitate your career to the employers that hold to the higher standard. The fact that you give this issue so much thought says that you are ready for the PE. The PE responsibility issue is to be taken quite seriously.

Let me tell you a little story:

I had a job interview some years ago. The interviewee presented & discussed one of his ongoing projects. The project was a rapidly moving structure/machine that stood over 50 people. Failure could kill in this situation. I had never been asked to work on anything that had this level of potential danger and I stated so. I also stated that I didn't think that this would be the right job for me due to the life safety issue. The interviewee talked me into taking the job offer. Several weeks later, he told me that he knew that I was the right candidate for the job because I took the life safety issue very seriously. The other candidates has been ho-hum about this. I think that you are in the same boat.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137,

Just a correction:

I meant to say "interviewer" rather than "interviewee".

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137--

Where you work, are there checkers on every design or just on the EITs?

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

PE helps during quality review:

Many years ago, before QS6000, I had frequent interaction with Cadillac Engineering regarding special vehicles both stretched and armored. During an annual quality review, I presented basic calcs re wt and balance, crash bar suitability, etc. The reviewer, a senior individual with Cadillac, asked whether I had the PE, and I answered "Yes."

He said that as a PE I had the privilege of presenting results without critical review by Cadillac. He liked my wt and balance calcs, similar to airplane methods, and asked for a courtesy copy. I suspect he wanted to incorporate the method in the manual of suggested construction methods for this special line of vehicles.

There may have been changes since then.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Getting a PE is like getting an Engineering Degree or any other higher education degree.  You have to really want to get it in order for it to be "worth it".  It should be something that you do for yourself, not others.

If you do not want to get a PE, then it is not worth the additional effort.  

If you do want to become a PE for yourself, then it will be well worth the effort.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I had to take FE exam to graduate. Never regret it and I'm planning to take PE exam next spring.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

May I ask where you went to school?

I think I like the idea, at least for some fields.  Civil engineering, for one.

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

We often ask hiring candidates if they have or will take te EIT.  Not because it matters much to my company/field, but because it tells us something about the candidate.  

For those who have not taken it, or havn't taken it yet, I advise them to give it serious consideration, and I explain why:  it "MAY" help THEM in the future;  it MAY matter to THEM in the future;  and last - it's easier to get it "now" than "later".

Good reasons or advice?  You judge.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I also took the FE exam just before I graduated but it was not a requirement. The Department strongly recommended it, held a class to prep for it, and met with engs that were doubtful and tried to help them understnad why it was important. I know that the main reason most people took it was because having passed the FE exam doesn't close doors for you and getting your PE doesn't seem like they would close any either. By keeping all possible avenues open in the future you have a back-up plan for future situations.

But definately do it for yourself and your future, not for anyone/thing else

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Hello All,

I'd like to drop a related question:

Is a PE *required* to practice engineering legally?
I'm aware this is hard to answer since engineering is such a broad term.

I'm a mechanical, and most of what I do is unrelated to safety of the public.  Neither building nor vehicle related.  If the public does get near anything I do, CE, UL or the like would have stamped it first.

I'm considering becoming a consultant, mechanical and machine design sorts of  things.  Does one legally need a PE in this situation?

Also, though it wasn't discussed explicitly in this thread (yet), it seems to me that the PE license was created to protect the public, and as such it is primarily relevant to those involved in the design of buildings.

Would a guy who designs wrist watches, camcorders, or dishwashers be someone who should have (or legally needs) a PE license?  

Happy New Year!

-R

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

If you are working for a industrial company, you are usually covered by the industrial exemption.  

However, if you offer your services to the public, you will need to get a PE license.

from Californias PE laws

Quote:

6702.2. Mechanical engineer defined
“Mechanical engineer” as used in this chapter means a professional engineer in the branch of mechanical engineering and refers to one who practices or offers to practice mechanical engineering in any of its phases.

Quote:

6730. Evidence of qualifications; registration
In order to safeguard life, health, property and public welfare, any person, either in a public or private capacity, except as in this chapter specifically excepted, who practices, or offers to practice, civil engineering, electrical engineering or mechanical engineering, in any of its branches in this state, including any person employed by the State of California, or any city, county, or city and county, who practices engineering, shall submit evidence that he is qualified to practice, and shall be registered accordingly as a civil engineer, electrical engineer or mechanical engineer by the board.

Quote:

6734.2. Practice of mechanical engineering
Any person practices mechanical engineering when he professes to be a mechanical engineer or is in responsible charge of mechanical engineering work.

TTFN

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Raffaello,

The PE provides additional evidence of your competence as an analytical engineer. That's what separates you from others who claim to be engineers. I took a 4 month prep course, which I found stimulating. Everybody has their shortcuts. I actually enjoyed taking the EIT/Professional exams.

After the exam I didn't hesitate to put numbers on my designs as proof of practicality. Instead of changing designs I was refining designs that worked. In addition, others in the know, like employers and clients, found the PE license to be a mark of competence.

Go for it!

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Raffaello:

The short answer is that you need the PE to offer engineering services to the public.  The public can mean anyone from industry, to government, to your neighbor.

The industry exemption allows engineers, or anyone else for that matter, to prectice engineering ONLY for the company that they are employed for.  You cannont practice outside of the company.  A good example I like to use is.  On Monsay you worked for industry engineering machines to build widgets.  Tuesday you lost your job.  Wednesday you get a call from the company and they want you back as a consultant to help them with engineering duties from your old job.....You cannot perform those duties legally without the PE even though it was your old job.


Go for the PE!!!  I would disagree with plasgears, the PE is not a measure of competence, I have met many a PE that was incompetent.  It is an indication that you met some predefined minimum standard to be recognized as an engineer.  Now, not everyone can meet this minimum standard, and that seperates engineers from professional engineers...It doesn't make a person engineer better, but it does make a person a better engineer....In my opinion, an engineer without the PE is incomplete.  Witht he PE you can provide engineering to anyone.  Under the industry/government exemption, your practice is so limited.

Hope this helped....

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Just a slight delta wrt BobPE's comments.  

In California, consultants working for an industrial company are also covered by the industrial exemption:

Quote:

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

TTFN

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

6747b essentially covers "Job Shoppers".

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Raffaello:

If you want to go off on your own and design products, there is nothing stopping you.  You can call yourself a mechanical designer, list what your skills are, and perform all those skills.  The only thing is that you can't call yourself an "engineer", offer "engineering" expertise, or have the word "engineering" in your company name.  If you substitute "engineer" with the words "mechanical designer" then you are all set.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Raffaello...until you screw up and get sued!  Then you'll be brought to task as to why you are practicing engineering without a license.  Just because you don't call yourself an engineer, doesn't protect you from engineering licensing laws.  That's just one aspect of the typical law.

Lawyers are not as stupid as we'd like to think....if there's a hint that you're practicing engineering to the public, then an appropriately qualified and licensed individual will likely review something you've done and proceed to nail you to the wall.

Get the license.  It is only an initial evidence of your capability, which doesn't hurt.  If you can't pass the test, you don't need to be practicing.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

DonMC:  Designers cannot engineer anything (except in ca. as IRStuff pointed out) and I would think that would be a big problem since most everything anyone would do at the design level includes engineering of some sort.  So I do not see how that gets anyone around the laws.  A lot of firms don't use engineering in their names, and it doesn't stop them from suffering the consequences if they practice engineering.  It can be a very costly mistake, professionally, business wise, and personally and it is just bad advice to post an opinion like that here...

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I do not know any Professional Engineer that has ever regretted obtain the PE license.  Conversely, I do know many "engineers" that regret not obtaining the license.

I was fortunate, early in my education I co-op-ed and learned the value of obtaining the PE license. Hence, from my sophomore year I had a goal of obtaining my license. Passed the EIT exam my senior year and took my first PE exam as soon as I was allowed, sequential I have taken a second exam in a different discipline. I am currently licensed or registered in nine states and two counties in two different disciplines.  

The license is a gateway to more opportunities.  Obtaining the PE license is an arduous task but one that is well worth it.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

If you read carefully on the paragraph about "practice of mechanical engineering," it does not matter what you call yourself, if you are "in responsible charge of mechanical engineering work," and not covered by the industrial exemption, you must be a licensed engineer.

Calling yourself "designer" will simply add to your woes when you are caught.

TTFN

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I just got my scores back today. Due to choices I made, I ended up taking the FE and PE bakc-to-back. I studied for six months and prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ a lot!

I passed them both.

I am the happiest man on earth right now and will continue to be so for the rest of my life.

My wife is really happy, too; especially since she won't be ignored for half a year ever again!

Was it worth it? ABSOLUTELY!

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

CONGRATULATIONS DaveViking!!!!!!!!!  Isn't it a great feeling...like the world has been lifted off your shoulders!!!

My advice....don't ever get off your soap box...go out and preach to all those engineers that listen and share your experience...It is my opinion that licensure, all around the world, is the only thing that is going to save our profession.....

good luck!!!

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Congrats DaveViking! Awesome achievement.

Speaking of licensing, in the opinion of the masses of educated people who frequent eng-tips.com, does a P.E. license negate, partially or completely, mediocre grades? I just got my license, after having graduated almost 11 years ago.

I don't plan on leaving my company at this time (but I don't see myself retiring from here either), and was curious.

Any opinions welcome.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

ByronT,
It will certainly help but I think at 11 years your experience will speak much more about you than anything else.  

Way to go DaveViking, from other posts you've submitted it seems you're a few years out of school, just getting the FE is awesome but doing both is quite an achievment.  Ask for a raise!

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Actually, as an aside to my license question above, considering how some of the P.E. exams are broken down in the afternoon section, would it be a good idea to specify in your resume' or cover letter what area you specialized in when you sat for the exam? As in, "I'm a professional engineer in electrical engineering with emphasis in Power systems" or "mechanical engineering with emphasis in Thermal / Fluid systems" etc. The reason I ask is my current and most extensive experience has been much closer to machine design, but I took the thermal / fluids afternoon portion of the exam, as that is the area that really interests me, and where I'd like to get back to at some point in the future.

Again, thanks for your input.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

ByronT:

Just PE is fine on your resume.  Some people do limit themselves by declaring what field they feel their PE represents.  But, the PE allows you to practice in other areas.  This may not seem relevant right now, but as you move through your career, it will make more sense.  You do not want to piegon hole yourself to an artifical limitation you derived.  Just my opinion....

Take care....


BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

2
I recently read through this thread and must disagree with some of the legal issues people KEEP bringing up. First off, if you work as an engineer for a company that does not perform services for the public, it is COMMON practice to HAVE engineer in your name. Legal or not, I do not know. I have met Hewlett Packard, Hughes, Boeing, and many, many other companies where their engineers have engineers in their titles WITHOUT a PE. So forget this idea of no engineer in your title if you fall under the industrial exemption, it just does not happen this way. It dont matter because if it is against some state laws, it is not enforced and it should not be. That is why they call it an industrial exemption. In any case, I simply can not buy off on the fact that the companies I mentioned above and did not mention are doing illegal acts. It just does not make sense. Generally, the people that claim this are lacking in understanding of the big picture of engineering. No offense, but these are generally the civil or structural people whose careers almost demand a PE since most work is for the public. This argument is simply WRONG so when you here this claim, ignore it because it just does not happen that way.   

Also, the government does generally take the LOWEST bid on projects. This is not illegal as someone pointed out. This is a trend that is making its way through the federal government (I work for them).

Since the OP is a Civil Engineer, I would suggest getting the PE license as there are not that many options to work under an industrial exemption as is the case with electricals. You will be stuck working for a PE at some consulting firm.

Most of my career was spent under an industrial exemption. I currently work where a PE license may help advance my career. As such, I have started studying for the PE. However, I may never take it since I miss circuit design and creating something from nothing, I may be looking for work along these lines again soon. The work to be had by electricals from consulting firms (mostly power, building, lighting, etc) is just plain boring to ME (what I have been doing).

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

buzzp:  Civil, structural,electrical, mechanical etc....it's all engineering no matter how you look at it.  A lot of companies break the laws, as you have pointed out.  Make no mistake, holding yourself out as an engineer without the PE is wrong, except to the company that gave you the title.  And I think your advice of breaking the law because you deem it worthless is well....foolish.

The problem with the industry exemption that we were talking about involves when those "engineers" feel they can offer services outside the industry they are working for...illegal with the exception of Ca.  That is some pretty important info to a lot of people on this site...It would be a shame for someone to read this site and get in trouble becuase of poor advice.

Good luck studying for your PE, let us know when you get it....

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

" holding yourself out as an engineer without the PE is wrong, except to the company that gave you the title"

This is my point. I do engineering work for my employer and I have engineer in my title. There is nothing wrong with this because my services are not available to the public.

"And I think your advice of breaking the law because you deem it worthless is well....foolish."

I guess if the very reputable electronic manufacturers are 'foolish' as you say, then I guess I don't have any qualms about belonging to the foolish club with Boeing, Hewlett Packard, SquareD, Siemens, shall I go on?

"The problem with the industry exemption that we were talking about involves when those "engineers" feel they can offer services outside the industry they are working for...illegal with the exception of Ca.  That is some pretty important info to a lot of people on this site...It would be a shame for someone to read this site and get in trouble becuase of poor advice."

Never said you could offer services to the public without a PE. Please quote me on this if I did say it somewhere (I know I didn't).

I am sure your good at what you do Bob. However, I think your knowledge of the industrial exemption as it relates to engineering is very weak.

The info you base your opinion on is written as it relates to consulting and not engineering. I would encourage you to call your state government and tell them you work for ABC company designing products for the company and you have engineer in your title, ask them if this is illegal.  
You will be surprised at the answer.

As far as bad advice, I think yours and a few others advice that 'engineer' can only be used in titles when you have your PE is BAD ADVICE. Not only BAD but simply WRONG.
 


RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

BobPE & buzzp,

BobPE is indeed correct that a person cannot hold themselves out to the public as an engineer, unless they are a PE, depending upon the particular state law. That being said, most "design persons" are employees and therefore never need to be PEs. Essentially these "design persons" are doing engineering, although they cannot legally identify themselves an engineers to the public. They are, however, allowed to use the engineering title within the confines of their employer's facility. buzzp is also correct that the most illustrious companies, producing the most leading edge engineered products are exempt from utilizing PEs. buzzp is also correct that non-PEs routinely identify themselves as engineers to members of the public. The states generally ignore this as long as it applies to industry employed "design persons". This is indeed a conundrum. I have had the occasion during the course of my employment to meet individuals who identified themselves as engineers. I later found out that they had little design experience and were in reality construction people. Why did they therefore call themselves engineers? In order to persuade property owners to unknowingly give permission for them to engage in nefarious acts. How do I oppose this type of behavior? Easy. I tell the property owner to look up the person in question on the state profession roster. If they are a PE, they will be on the roster. This roster is the only realistic way that a member of the public can identify who is an engineer. The vast majority of "design persons" that I have met are people of integrity. But there will always be a small group of troublemakers who have no reservations about causing problems for others. This is why engineer licensing laws were created. Sad to say that there are so many loopholes from them.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I would weigh in that EddyC is correct.  I don't see a lot of industry engineers trying to offer their services out to the public, though.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Two points are recently being discussed:

1.  Grades on a resume:  Grades are very important to have on a resume, IF you are a new or pending graduate seeking your first position as an engineer.  Once you have that first couple of years experience under your belt (and documented on your resume), there's no need to provide a GPA.  Experience and capabilities is what's important;  but when you have no experience, grades become the factor often used to compare candidate A to candidate B to determine who to interview.

2.  Use of "engineer".  It's a FACT that the term "Engineer" means many things to different people.  An "Engineer" could be used to describe ANY of the following:
a - Steam plan operator
b - Trash Collector ("Sanitation Engineer"
c - Train operator (perhaps the original "engineer"
d - Technicians preparing drawings
e - Degreed engineers working on a project
f - Registerered Engineer who takes the responsibility for the engineering calculations being presented to the customer.

The above are ALL common usages for the term "Engineer",  and saying that you are an "engineer" for any of the above is not only common usage, it's "politically correct".  

The legal issues are involved only when you present yourself as one responsible for engineering design (with many exceptions, such as some government work), and/or apply a seal.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

JAE:

One thing I would add is that the states do no policing, that is left to the engineers in the profession, and if anything is weak, I think this part is the worst offender.  I have, and more importantly will, turn in those "engineers" that hold themselves out as engineers from industry, government, or other areas of practice.  Their work takes the form of engineering reports to public agencies (any public agency from consume product safety to OSHA), presentation to public agencies, court testominy, etc.  This is all engineering and subjects the practioner to judgement under the engineering laws.

I would agree with you buzzp, my knowledge of the industry exemption is weak...and I would say the your knowledge of it is as well...there is no formal standard for the exemption and the rules seem to be made up along the way and to meet needs of the present moment, not the long term interests of the profession.  A system like that does not interest me, only its impact to the engineering profession and the puiblic.  

I do not doubt the experience and skill on exempt engineers, that is not my rant, my feeling is the PE does not make you engineer better, it makes you a better engineer.  

The law is the law, and getting cought is a terrible thing to have happen to ones career.  We have to be very careful on advocating illegal practice as the consequences are far reaching and mostly unknown to us posters here.  I don't think that is fair to build consensus here in a semi-public arena against established laws.

Buzzp:  I am an engineer, not a consultant...and I think you are thinking the same way as you want to be an engneer and not an industry exempt.  Where we work should have nothing to do with who we are as engineers. Taking control of our profession would make our profession stronger in the long run, and it is my opinion that this is a nobel goal.

I am not a title person and using engineer titles in the confines of business is fine...But when those titles and the associated practice of engineering make it out of the confines of the business, then these engineers enter a world that I take very seriously.

I obsiously have a differing opinion that you buzzp, and that is OK.  I think the only way people can become informed is understand our opinions then search for the facts themselves.

take care...

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Here's a good one for you folks:

A set of drawings were brought over to me about a year ago by my employer. He wanted me to PE stamp them. They were a design for power plant steam piping. The project was led by a PE manager who was not licensed in the state where the power plant facility was located. He delegated (and I mean delegated) the design to an individual who was not licensed in any state. This individual did the design "by eye" and "by feel". He did absolutely no stress analysis calculations. He did not even try to read the ASME B31.1 Code. My review of the design revealed that it did not meet code. When I explained this to the designer, he stated that the client was aware of the shortcomings of the design and consented to them. I had to explain to this "engineer" that state law requires us to conform to code regardless of what a client consents to. He said that he did not know the law (and probably didn't care). I refused to stamp the drawings and told the other PE in our office who was licensed in that particular state that he shouldn't either.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

BobPE - Good post - and I would add that in the US - each state has different degrees of emphasis on the Engineer label - some are very strict and some are not.  

I agree that the profession of engineering is weakened by the fact that there are so many "kinds" of individuals out there laying claim to the title and there are many places where the use of the term is not enforced or non-existent.

We are also fragmented into various societies, ASCE, NSPE, CASE, PCI, AASHTO, ACI, AISC etc. with their own agendas.  It would be great if we all unified somehow, but I doubt that will happen in the near future.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

My comments are from real life experiences. I don't know if it is illegal for me to use engineer in my title (my guess is not). I do know it is illegal for me to offer services to the public or to pass myself off as a registered engineer to the public.
Bob, I don't want to be a consultant (licensed engineer). I prefer industrial exempt work (more interesting to me). I said I am in a position where the PE would help advance my career a little quicker than without it. However, where I am at there is pretty much a cap on engineers wages, with or without the PE. With the PE, I can reach this cap one year earliar than I can without it. Not real beneficial but it helps.
I am not opposed to the PE at all. I think it is necessary for those engineers offering services to the public. I do not think it is necessary for all engineers to be registered simply because it serves no purpose in the industrial exempt world. Being an electrical, there are many, many, many opportunities to be creative, challenged, and on the verge of some technological break through (ok maybe not that many on the verge of some breakthrough). But you see these new products and new technologies do not generally come from a PE (some do of course), they generally come from some person that holds a BS or MS. I guess these people would not be classified as engineers by some peoples perception of engineer. But there is a need for these types of engineers as there is for engineers capable of designing an electrical system for a building or designing a substation.
Okay, I am rambling on and will shut up and will, once again, agree to disagree with Bob, although I think we are really saying the same thing concerning engineers and the public - they must be licensed. However, I believe our disagreement is regarding me handing out business cards to other engineers, salesman, with the word engineer on it. I don't know if it is illegal (as I said, I doubt it) but it is widely accepted as standard practice. If it is a law on the books in some states, does not mean it is enforced nor should it be. Heck, some states have some very ridiculous laws on the books (sure everyone has heard of some classic examples although I can not remember any right now). See http://www.stupidlaws.com/
http://www.dumblaws.com/
Visit these sites and you will see many examples of dumb laws that no prosecuting attorney in their right mind would ever try to bring to court.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

So, to summarize for raffeallo's original question:

"I'm considering becoming a consultant, mechanical and machine design sorts of  things.  Does one legally need a PE in this situation?"

If you're offering to design widgets for Boeing or Caterpillar, probably not, but if you're offering to design a pump system for a local municipality, definitely.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

ghghghgh:

If you are offering engineering to Boeing or Cat or for any other entity public or private, and you do not work for them, chances are it is illegal as governed by your state.

buzzp:  I know where you are coming from.  I worked for indusrty, and I am aware of that side of our practice.  I understand their points of view, but I look towards the common good of all engineers in my opinions, consultants included.

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Here's another situation that I ran into regarding licensing:

I have had to testify on behalf of clients in front of city planning boards, in order for them to grant zoning variances. My fellow team member (from another company) also had to testify. He is a degreed engineer, but not a PE. I warned him that in the particular state where we were testifying it was illegal for him to present himself as an engineer since he is not a PE. I also noticed that his business card said "engineer". I told him that he could be fined by the state for using the engineer title. He told me that this did not apply to him since he was an EE. I explained to him that the PE exemption was only for manufacturing companies and that it only applied within the confines of the company, not out in public. This was news to him. The latest seasonal flyer from the state in question indicates that an unlicensed individual was fined $1500 for calling himself an engineer.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

You can perform services for Boeing or whoever without a PE as long as your performing these services as part of your regular non-public business, in other words B2B. You could design a brake system, component, or any other part you wanted, without a PE under the shelter of a normal business (not consultants). I have designed things for SquareD, without a PE, and it is legal.

The way I look at it is this: If your designing a product (a product being something to be sold to a company or a product to be sold to consumers - not a service) then no PE is required. This is why they have UL, CSA, and CE marks - public safety.

I have no disagreement with EddyC on his latest illustration of when an exempt can not be an 'engineer'. However, I would caution that there are several states that would allow a non PE to testify in court, depending on the circumstances.

Ok, now I am going to go enjoy my weekend and leave this discussion alone forever (maybe :))

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
Well,

Here it is.  I asked this question a while ago.  I received a lot of answers.  A few encouraging, most incredulous or downright hostile.  I thank you all for the helpful words, no matter the delivery.

However, contrary to my first instinct, I have decided to go ahead and try to get that PE license.  A friend of mine gave me a good talking to about it, about how it will only benefit me to get it.  I couldn't get him to understand, and still can't how I don't want the responsibilities that go with the title.  I know that my boss will expect more of me just because I have a license. He did that to all the other engineers who passed the test.  Gave them more responsibilities.  I just don't want them, but I still want to work at what I do.   I know there is no way to prevent him from finding out if I passed the test, I wish there was.  I just don't want to be labeled as selfish because I did something to improve my career by taking somebody else's spot who deserved that license more than I did by taking it for myself.  Im not taking it for myself, I'm taking that damn test and passing so I can be left alone about taking it, and Im going to hate every minute of it that they heap fake praise on me for passing it.  I'm just going to refuse any project lead assignments that are given me.  They will be sent right back to someone who wont screw it up by solving the problem in a way that isn't the most popular, but still gets the problem solved.









RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137:  I think you are still missing the point, the PE is about you.  I have several friends that did not inform their employer they are PE's.  Again, it is something to make them a better engineer and has as little or as much to do with your current employer as YOU want it to.

buzzp:  I know I am probably not your favorite poster here, but I want to comment on your last response.

If you engineered something for another company that affected one of their products then they produced that product, that is illegal practice.  If you worked on a product for your company and then your company sold that product to a company for their use, not illegal.

I will grant you the engineering laws get confusing to a lot of industry exempts and PE's for that matter and that is a good thing about this site, we can discuss the issues that impact our practice.

take care....

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

You take care too BobPE, I have learned to love ya , ok not really but honestly, take care.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I have been reading this thread with interest & decided to put my "2 cents in".

I once read on a respected engineering website (I think NSPE.) that the PE license was worth about an extra $15K per year.
If you are in civil/structural I believe the benefit is much greater - almost required.  Mechanical engineers I think benefit but not to the extent of civil/structurals.
The other disciplines I am really not sure that there is any benefit at all. The "$15K benefit" is probably averaged across all disciplines with the civil/structurals having a greater reward for being licensed.  If you are an ethical person & practice as an independent consultant/engineer then you should get licensed regardless of your discipline.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

In Civil it's not so much a benefit to be licensed as a serious detriment not to be.  I didn't get a big raise when I got the license.  On the other hand, if I didn't get it, I'd have been stuck in "assistant" position with no possibility of a raise for the remainder of my career--and very limited options to change jobs because they'd all be looking at me very funny if I'd never gotten the license.

Hg

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)

Bob, to quote you:
"I think you are still missing the point, the PE is about you."  When I read that, I think of how selfish I am for doing something solely for myself.  The only benefit I get from getting a PE is getting my boss and coworkers off my back about getting it.
I have already made the decision to refuse any assignment that would place me in a lead role (boss didn't like that very much), only because I would probably end up messing it up like I did the first time I took something on as a lead. I just messed it up royally, or so I thought.  Turns out now that we are going to do about 95% of what I recommended a year ago. Still doesn't make me want to be a leader though. I'm soured on the entire idea of being a leader if thats what it means to be one. I'm still going to try to get it though, if only to stop the endless prodding about not taking it. I will see what refusing assignments as a lead gets me, I think its going to go higher up the chain.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137,
I have been lurking on this thread since the start, holding by pecking fingers.  I think I now understand where you are coming from.  I have tried the "lead" thing too, and don't care for it much.  I don't like training or keeping people busy, and I have a real tough time delegating work out or others.  I also don't like being responsable for the quality of work others put out.
I do not mind taking on hard tasks, and asking for help.  
Some of us do well as leaders, some as team members.  
I waited 21 years to get my PE, I wish I got it sooner, for 2 reasons.  First, I believe is was tougher because I had been out of school so long, and there was a lot of re-learning I had to do.  Second, doors have opened up for me.   Not leadership doors, but more interesting techninal tasks.  Shoot, we have PHDs with no staff, they just work their problems, and help others with their problems.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137:

Do you have any solid mentors that can help you to understand your role as an engineer in society?  A PE is not about being a leader, it is about being an engineer.  The public needs your services and will place demands on you because of your chosen career path.  If you are not prepared for this, then maybe the PE is not the correct path for you, although I would strongly doubt this from  your resolve in responding here in the forums.

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Monkey,

When we start in engineering, we analyze, we draw and sketch, we make interesting break-throughs, we estimate costs and foster projects along to completion. Then comes the time when we are mature enough and the boss puts smart young engineers under our wing. That's when synergy happens.

Many years ago a young MME joined my group with a specialty in fracture mechanics. I put his talents to work in computer based mission crack growth of welded structures and life analysis based on actual mission cycles.

The technology he adapted to my hardware caught the attention of the Dayton USAF authorities, and they came to me to learn more. I worked with them, and they adapted this technology to wing structures. So, my work with a talented young engineer helped me, it helped him, it helped my company, and it helped the customer.

What more can you ask for in the business of engineering?

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

jadyn137,

My current employer went through a bad period recently where he had to lay off a bunch of engineers. I am pretty sure that my being a PE helped prevent myself getting axed. Lets take a look at some of the advantages of being a PE:

a) The studying process that you will need to do in order to pass the PE exam will make you a better engineer.

b) Being a PE will mean that you will get exposed to the rules, regulations and ethics that govern the profession.

c) Being a PE will allow you to refer any member of the public to the state roster of engineers, thereby PROVING that you are indeed an engineer.

d) You will be able to start a consulting engineering company, should you so desire.

There are other reasons, but these should suffice. You have touched on the fact that PEs will be asked by some employers and clients to approve work that is not within code. Along with the advantages of being a PE come the responsibilities. You can't have one without the other. Its like the rest of life itself. Get your PE as fast as you can. Don't let it wait until you are older like other people do. Its much harder later. Demonstrate to the profession and to yourself that you are a Professional. Get it ASAP.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

If it is much harder to get your PE, once you have real world experience, then what do that say about test?  I thought the point of being a PE proves that you meet the minimum requirements for calling yourself an engineer.  If the test is harder once you have proven yourself in the REAL world, then it sounds like a pretty silly test to me.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

melone:

You are right, the test is hard.  Silly, well to those that can't pass it, maybe it is...

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Perhaps you missed the point......

If the test becomes more difficult to pass, if you wait until your are PROVEN, seasoned engineer, then it sounds like a pretty stupid test!

Taking useless tests does not make you a better engineer!

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?


melone,

Studying for the PE killed a whole summer of weekends for me. But it paid off because I passed the exam. The studying process also made me learn new things and relearn old ones. The PE essentially certifies that the person learned a minimum amount of knowledge. We certify airplanes and welders and a whole bunch of other things. Why not engineers? Or are we merely supposed to take the word of learning institutions (in reality businesses) that their graduates are properly trained? How about the folks from 3rd world educational institutions? Folks from the 3rd world can easily bribe someone to make up a phony transcript or degree. The reason the PE exists is that colleges, businesses and employers cannot always be counted on to do the right thing. Every engineered product serves society in one form or another. Society therefore has the right to demand that the people who do engineering be properly trained. This is why society created the PE. Too bad that there are loopholes to it.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

melone:

What usless tests are you refering too?  I would agree usless tests make nobody a better anything...

Getting a PE requires one to take a test, and say what you want about that...Having a PE does not make you engineer better, but it most certainly does make one a better engineer.

I guess my thought on the longer one waits is say an engineer engineers paper bags for 20 years, and is very good at it, then decides to get the PE.  The process will be harder for this individual becuase most of the material on the exam will have little or nothing to do with paper bag engineering.  No matter how proven the engineers real world esperience is, there will be subject matter the engineer may not have used for years and they will have to come up to speed.  Now if you are saying that this real world experience trumps what other skills an engineer may not have been using, then I disagree with you opinion that this is a stupid test.  An engineer with a PE is required to perform engineering, of all kinds, that they have demonstrated competency in.  If I had that 20 year paper bag engineer (non-PE) vrs. a 10 year engineer with a PE to design a project, I would put the PE on as lead.

I know we have spoken on this topic in the past and I respect your right to an opinion, but your use of stupid, useless, and silly...well seems like your slipping away from the positive value of the forums here...

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I am sorry you feel that way.  It was never my intention to track towards negativity.  I fail to reconginze how passing one test can make you a better engineer.  Graduating from an accredited university should be all of the proof that you need.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Well...yes and no. If I take the test, passed it, use it often, and keep updating my analytical skill, then I am (in one sense) a better engineer. On the other hand, if I take the test, passed it, rarely used it, and don't update my analytical skills, then I'm no better engineer.

You are right "passing" the test doesn't make you a better engineer, but the "process of passing it" will. I'm taking a PE because I would like to refresh my memory for the knowledge that I had learned at school. I don't need it for my job, but for my own amusement, I'll do it, and maybe...just maybe, once I have PE licence, I could have more number crunching job that I love more than chasing parts and leg work!..

APH

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

melone,

When you say that graduating from an accredited university is all that is needed to prove competency, you are saying that private enterprise decides who is competent. The states have decided that engineering competence is their area of responsibility. The licensing process also allows people to get licensed from a variety of educational and experiential backgrounds, provided that they can meet the qualifications. Lets also remember that licensing laws were put in place in the 1930s in the USA. We're talking about a process that's almost 70 years old. In reality, after all this time, everybody should be trying to get licensed. The sad fact is that licensing is poorly promoted. People find out about its value too late in life. But the folks who are visiting this forum have become aware of its virtues. They should now be proactive and pursue licensure.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

An engineer with a PE can engineer for anyone, and engineer without a PE is very restricted as who they can practice engineering for.

The worst thing an engineer could say, in my opinion, is "No, I can't help you because I have no PE."  Having a PE therfore would make for a better engineer.

Good luck APH, let us know how you make out...It is well worth the effort.

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

melone - I'd like to add my two cents to your comment about tests not making someone a better engineer.

I agree with you that the test doesn't do a whole lot for the person other than what is gained by all the preparation for the test...that does count for something doesn't it?

But...

The test does allow a community to verify a person's competence to practice engineering and this is a good thing.  It does tend to weed out those who aren't yet prepared.

Also - and here's my main point:

Graduating from an accredited university is NOT ENOUGH to make someone ready to be a stand-alone engineer.  In the US there is the requirement of 4 years experience under a licensed engineer.  This is where the former student takes out his box of tools (tools gained in school) and begins to learn how to use them in practice to solve problems and turn ideas into reality.

So while you are correct that a test isn't an end-all for making a good engineer, your assertion that schooling is enough is totally off base.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I have worked as an Adjunct Associate Professor in Engineering at Syracuse University for the past consecutive eight years. I also work full time as a Senior Metallurgist for a specialty steel manufacturer. In this capacity I am able to observe and to some extent influence what skills the students have the opportunity to acquire during their tenure at the University. I also realize what skill sets many of them lack that will be needed in order to function effectively in industry. It was stated above that

Quote (Melone):

I fail to reconginze how passing one test can make you a better engineer.  Graduating from an accredited university should be all of the proof that you need.

In my opinion, it would be a mistake to allow the universities to establish the criteria necessary for determining who is qualified to be a Professional Engineer. In fact, I believe that you would find most of the professors in these universities are not registered Professional Engineers themselves, since relatively few of them have ever held a job outside of an academic setting. They certainly don't teach an engineer eveything that he needs to know to function effectively in industry. I'm sure that most of us have heard stories about mechanical engineers with their BS degrees who didn't know how to use a set of micrometers properly. The PE is used to determine if someone has the engineering knowledge and working experience to make the proper judgement in a real world setting where safety is of paramount importance. Studying for this very difficult exam may expose the engineer to concepts that they did not encounter during their education, and will also allow him or her to brush up on topics that may not have been used much since college. This type of review may be what Bob was referring to in terms of making someone a better engineer. Graduating from an accredited engineering program does not guarantee the competence of the engineer. His ability to perform the necessary work safely and effectively should be evaluated independently of the university from which his degree was awarded. The PE exam provides us with the means to perform this type of evaluation.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I must be crazy.  I soaked up the information I was taught in school because I may need it for my future career.  I learned about physics, electrical principle, mechanical principles, etc., and found the entire process to be beneficial for my future.  Perhaps I was under the mistaken impression that people actually remembered what they were taught in school.

I will admit, that the apprenticeship portion of the PE process is a good idea.  However, having seen how easy it is for an engineer to get a passing mark from a superior, I still have reservations as to its effectiveness.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I don't think anyone was saying that unis should decide what the appropriate qualification is. The key phrase is that it should be an "accredited degree course". That degree course should only be accredited if it includes the correct academic and technical content, and reaches a high enough standard. That accreditation (in the USA and Canada) should be given by the PE state association, and in an ideal world only courses that were so accredited could be called engineering degrees. Note that it is not the institution that gains accreditation, it is the degree itself. An unwise selection of papers inside a given faculty could still result in a non-accredited degree.

I'm in two minds about the value of a further, quasi academic, test. It seems to me that it only has real value if it is taken at the end of the 4 year EBIT, when refreshing the basics would be of value in the light of real world experience. I haven't seen a test paper, so I don't know if it works like that. I certainly don't see that it has much value if taken concurrently with, or soon after, the original degree.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

School is good   (Animal House - Knowledge is Good)....

But for many practicing engineers (at least in Structural, Civil, Private practice mech and elec) when you come out of school you realized just how little you really know.

Academia teaches you a lot...but my own experience, even after an MS degree, was that I still had a long way to go.  I have worked with many new graduates on my own staff over the years and I see this same effect repeated....on-the-job learning is vastly more involved than learning the equations on the chalkboard.

Practically everything said in this post has been broad-brush generalizations but I would stand firm on the value of experience after school as more of a determinant in the quality of the engineer than the schooling.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?


Greg,

The accreditation process in the USA is separate from the government. In Canada, accreditation is indeed by the government. This is why in the USA the PE exam is technically-based while in Canada the PEng exam is ethics-based.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

melone:

What do you mean by your statement: "I will admit, that the apprenticeship portion of the PE process is a good idea.  However, having seen how easy it is for an engineer to get a passing mark from a superior, I still have reservations as to its effectiveness."

Who is the superior you refer to?  Would this be the PE exam grader? A boss? Or someone else that governs engineering?  I am just curious and I am not trying to be a jerk...

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

$500 dollars each time the PE rolls around??  You pay your up front fee to take the test, and then a renewal fee.  I don't know about where you are, but for 2 yrs., my renewal fee was $40, and to take the test was $50.  Pretty cheap I'd say...

Mike

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

(OP)
Mike, what year was that and where the @%Q$#!! are you?  $50 sounds like a load of high grade manure to me.

For California?

California Test Fee:  $275
Hotel :  $135 to stay in a good part of Sacramento, because I don't like being shot.

Gas:  $50
Food:  $40

Total Cost  $500

But, since I have already submitted my fee for taking the exam, and can't take it back.  I guess I just better take it.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Sounds like a visa commercial...LOL

Exam:  275

A night away from the family:  135

enough fuel to cover getting lost finding the hole in the wall exam site:  50

Passing the PE:  Priceless...

LOL

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

My employer picks up the exam fee, as long as you pass. He also pays the license renewal fees, which is a good deal for me as I am licensed in 10 states.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Bob, Bob, Bob, good joke on that one! Very creative.
I think Melone brings up some valid points (test does not proove anything graduating does not, however, the real world experience is a good idea) but you already know that.
So, lets change the qualifications to get a PE to graduating from an accredited college AND four years of real world experiences. Then if we change the test format to only reflect problems encountered with real engineering work (and not repeat the basics that college taught you)then I would be a fan of the whole PE process. That or drop the test altogether (No I have not ever took the PE test even once).

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

It seems there is a fairly partisan split on this issue, those with the PE in favor of it, those without it, opposing the process.   Logical, of course.

So to get back to jadyn137's original question, I'd like to here a different perspective.  Is there anyone who has their PE that truly regrets getting it or purposely let it lapse? Does anyone deliberately hide the fact that they are licensed to their employer or prospective employer(s)?
In my limited experience I know of no one that would answer affirmatively to those questions (at least not openly), but was just wondering........

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I recently took the PE exam, in PA, for the first time and passed.  However, I have to agree with buzzp in that my personal experience is that the test is a load of you know what.  Approximately 75% of the encountered problems were not relevant to the real world situations.  I took this test as a professional challenge, call it a personal accomplishment.  My company officially does not recognize the PE – and yet they promote how many PE’s are on staff, funny how that works huh?  I have worked side-by-side with many an engineer and to tell you the truth, many NON-PE’s are just as or more qualified then the PE’s.  Our industry, in general, and specifically many of our peers do not give you credence unless you are a registered engineer.  I had one co-worker (a PE) go so far as to quote to me that “I was not an engineer until I passed the PE exam, legally speaking.”  So in his eyes the lawyers dictate who is and who is not an engineer.  It is my personal belief that the State run Agencies are interested in only one thing, please PAY your annual fee promptly.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

ghghghgh - I have never regretted getting my PE or SE.

buzzp -

Quote (buzzp):

So, lets change the qualifications to get a PE to graduating from an accredited college AND four years of real world experiences. Then if we change the test format to only reflect problems encountered with real engineering work (and not repeat the basics that college taught you)then I would be a fan of the whole PE process.

That is exactly the process used in the US -

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Congratulations on passing the PE 1HVACEngineer!!!!

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

BobPE – Thank you for the acknowledgement.  As I stated it was a professional goal I had set for myself.  I was very happy to have accomplished it.

ghghghgh – I have no regrets about getting my PE.

1HVACEngineer, P.E.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

JAE,
From what I have heard from others the majority of the test is review from college. I am saying make it all real world, ie have them do a design (all but the prototype) or something along those lines. Give them a real problem. This would make much more sense and at the same time will also prove their knowledge in the basics (have to know by default).
Maybe what I have heard is totally off base but there seems to be a consensus on the test being, for the most part, generic(college course stuff).

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

The PE is meant to be a minimum competency certification. Without it, evaluating one's competence becomes more problematic. The PE is meant to be the gateway to the profession. Its the starting point, not the finishing point. Its a uniform method of determining the minimum competence of design persons. The universities and employers are not up to the task of determining competence. That is why the government does it. The PE is also about more than just technical competence. Its also about knowing the law as it applies to engineering and it makes you subject to state regulation. I have met several engineers in the past who were technically competent, but didn't know the law. They thought that conformance to code was optional. They weren't PEs.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Here is a great document that outlines a lot of the history and concepts behind the PE license - probably more for the US - check out Section 3 particularly.

NCEES

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

2
jadyn137
I have read most of the 137 replys and find the answer to your question very simple.  
If you have to ask the question, the answer is no.
Some people are  chiefs, some are indians and lots are in between. You only need two feathers at most.
If you can igonre the good advise you got here you wasted a lot of time and money going to school.  A two year AA degree in cad would have served you  well.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

My advice is:  If you can pass the exam, go for the PE.

Like everyone stated in many posts above, PE is an indication of minimum competency level to work in areas where public safety is significant.  There are very knowledgeable PEs as there are ones who are marginal.  There are many knowledgeable non-licensed engineers who make me wonder why they do not attempt to obtain their PE.

Remember that obtaining the PE is not reaching the finish line.  It is just the beginning...

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

"PE is an indication of minimum competency level to work in areas where public safety is significant. "

Gosh, glad to hear that PEs can work out the rollover characteristics of SUVs. Or isn't that a public safety issue?

Please don't exaggerate. PEs have their areas of competence. So do other engineers.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Greg -
there's a lot of us engineers who are PE's that deal mostly in the consulting realm with buildings and bridges, etc.  

For automotive and other industrials there is still the issue of public safety, but it is handled under product safety guidelines....you are engineering a product, not providing engineering services directly to the public.  The PE laws are there for those who do provide engineering services directly to the public.

I don't for a minute assume that non-PE's who work in automotive or other similar arenas are less competent just because they don't have a license.  But I would say that this whole thread is about whether a PE license is something worth getting or not.  It really depends on the type of engineering you do as to whether you should strive to get it or not.

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

Better to have a PE and not have to use it than to not have one and find out that you really need it.

Regards,

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

"PE is an indication of minimum competency level to work in areas where public safety is significant. "

There seems to be a bit of confusion with this idea.  The PE is required to provide engineering services to the public, including engineering that deals with safety.

Greg:

PE's work out rollover calcs all the time, mostly for lawyers and insurance companies, how do you think these concerns came about for the automotive industry to begin putting rollover characteristics to the top of the list of their design concerns?  The PE's area of competence is engineering, that is the beauty of the PE and I think it is very worthy for any engineer to obtain.

BobPE

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

A reduction of SUV rollovers is on the heads of the a lot of the people who use them.  Unfortunately, there are a vast number of stupid people who suddenly become invincible when driving an SUV.

Travelling in the fast lane at posted speed or even higher in snow + suddenly travelling sideways + hitting dry patch + high centre of gravity = rollover.  PE or non PE is'nt going to change the laws of physics. You are beating your head against a wall in trying to design a vehicle which is idiot proof.

A bit off topic, but I don't think whyun was insinuating that the inherent problems in SUVs (when misused) or any vehicle for that matter could be rectified with a PE at the helm.

While it is plain in which areas a PE is mandatory, and rightly so, the question of whether it is worth it to get one when not required is strictly an individual choice. Even if it is just for the self satisfaction of having PE after ones name, to that individual, it is worth it.

I agree with jaydn137, if you have to ask the the question, the answer is no. However, in choosing not to get a PE, I woud'nt say a diploma in cad would serve you as well as a BSc. or a BE.

Haggis

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

"You are beating your head against a wall in trying to design a vehicle which is idiot proof." Sorry not true. By applying engineering to the problem of rollovers it has been possible to significantly reduce the incidence of single vehicle rollovers in SUVs. Off the top of my head I think the insurance companies are saying something like a 60% reduction.

The first, easiest, way is to make sure that the centre of gravity is not too high. This involves mass management during the early stages of the program, and frankly ain't going anywhere unless you are starting with a cleanish sheet of paper. It directly affects ground clearance, which is a major reason for buying the vehicle for many buyers.

Then you make sure that there are no negative interactions between the steering behaviour of the driver and the yaw/rolling behaviour of the car. That's the tricky bit.

Finally, you add an electronic rollover mitigation system, which typically linearises the steering behaviour of the car (to make the driver's job easier) and makes sure the car can't trip itself up.

Now, this is all a fine lot of tomfoolery to solve a problem that basically comes from people trying to drive trucks (and SUVs) as if they were cars. Nonetheless, it does work.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?


First of all, I'll apologise to jadyn137 for getting off topic again in his thread but I must reply to GregLocock's last post.

By saying "You are beating your head against a wall in trying to design a vehicle which is idiot proof." , I in no way intended this to mean you are wasting your time. Absolutely not. Engineering advances in vehicle safety, and the inovations that have been forthcoming in assisting drivers in precarious circumstances, are to be commended for the reduction of accidents which much too often involve fatalities.

However, it seems to be the nature of the beast in some cases to alter their driving habits in a negative way because of these safety features.

Recently, I was treated to a ride in a coworker's new Corvette who then proceeded to demonstrate, at highway speed, how he could yank the steering wheel violently and the car would correct this abnormal manouvre by using the computerised control of both traction and ABS to automatically apply any of the four brakes to help correct the situation. Luckily it worked this time but the design of these features were not for the promotion of idiotic behaviour. Had it failed to correct the situation, I'm afraid I would'nt be around to tell the tale of how it came about in the first place.

Unfortunately, when an accident does result, the fingers are pointed at the manufacturers, the engineers, and then the ambulance chasers go after the wrong people and sometimes even the Ralph Nader's of this world come out of the woodwork. All to belittle the efforts of some good engineers and earn an unethical dollar. Sorry, I started out clarifing my comment to GregLocock and ended up having my rant for today.

Maybe there should be a "Ranting in Engineering Forum"....

Haggis




RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

I hope you gave your co-worker an earful. I'm looking forward to lawsuits arising from people who deliberately try and roll their SUVs when they are just 'testing' the system!





Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Is it worth it to get a PE license?

To back up a couple of topics, the PE exam questions used to have a lot more to do with the kind of engineering problems one might solve as an engineer.  There were a bunch of questions to choose from, one picked a subset that reflected one's knowledge, and the test was hand-graded.

Now most of the exams have moved to a machine-gradable multiple-choice format where nothing of depth can really be asked.  I believe it has lost value.

I'm glad I went through it because the the review of all the other subfields I'd forgotten for the morning portion was good for me.  If I ever take the Structual I or II exam, I'll have to go through a LOT of studying, and that will be good for me too.

But for me the most important part of the licensing process was the 12-page summary of experience I had to write up.  It was a real struggle for me because the system is geared toward designers and I'm not a designer.  I hated every minute of it.  But looking back on it, it was valuable.  I'm told other states don't have this, that a simple 1-page resume will do.  In Texas the extensive experience summary is left over from the days when there was no exam and licensure was based entirely on the experience.

Hg

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