SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
(OP)
A leading UK politician recently stated in a national newspaper that industry and academia needed to encourage more women into the engineering profession to address the skills shortage.
If indeed there were a skills shortage for engineering posts in the UK then encouraging women into the profession would address the issue. However, about 15 years ago stood many impressive buildings around the UK teaming with engineers. Now they have been demolished and replaced with retail outlets. The ones that are still standing are selling off land and down sizing.
The engineering industry in the UK is shrinking, engineering companies that have been trading for over a hundred years are closing down. British engineering companies are being sold to large multinational companies who often only wish to get their hands on the brand name before discarding the manufacturing base.
Markets are driven by supply and demand. Demand for engineers is so low that pay is very poor in comparison to most other professions.
Just where do politicians get the idea from that there is a shortage of engineers?
If indeed there were a skills shortage for engineering posts in the UK then encouraging women into the profession would address the issue. However, about 15 years ago stood many impressive buildings around the UK teaming with engineers. Now they have been demolished and replaced with retail outlets. The ones that are still standing are selling off land and down sizing.
The engineering industry in the UK is shrinking, engineering companies that have been trading for over a hundred years are closing down. British engineering companies are being sold to large multinational companies who often only wish to get their hands on the brand name before discarding the manufacturing base.
Markets are driven by supply and demand. Demand for engineers is so low that pay is very poor in comparison to most other professions.
Just where do politicians get the idea from that there is a shortage of engineers?





RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
These think tanks are often funded or associated with "interest groups" or industries that recognize that their long term economic growth is inextricably associated with growth in the population, low labor costs, an age distribution balanced at 30 years of age, and consumers taht are in the max consumption category( ie young families buying entry level houses with 2.2 children). Since the trend in western countries , without immigration, is toward an aging population with fewer children, that trend is targeted to be broken by intense lobbying efforts to either allow mor immigration or to turn a blind eye on all laws that were passed to limit same.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Regards,
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
The concept that there aren't enough engineers has nothing to do with reality, nor has it any relevance to what might be for the benefit of the coutry as a whole, and has everything to do with their own political agenda.
These are the same politicians who allowed our manufacturing industry to die and did nothing to save it. Don't expect any help from the self-serving bastards.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
And where will all these engineering graduates go? Well, at least if you have a degree, you can get a better job doing something. The Fine Arts programs at colleges have been graduating students for years that will be employed at many different jobs - except Fine Arts.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
That said, I visited a Robert Gordon's university recently and on a MSc Engineering course aimed at the oil & gas industry, over half the students were from abroard- either they're finding the UK students, or no graduate wants to work in the Oil industry any more (dirty, human rights abusers who kill dolphins.....)
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
If the institutions were doing the job we pay them to do they would be restricting access to the engineering professions, and enforcing standards. Instead they schmooze with politicians and industry leaders, and have a very nice lifestyle in London. How many working engineers are there in London? So why do we need our technical library there? I am so close to resigning from the IMechE at times it is not funny.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Many of these mature engineers are working as self-employed consultants, after learning and mastering their profession in the great engineering institutions of yesteryear. These skills are not being passed down. Those who lead our profession have yet to see the obvious outcome: that when all the consultants have retired, there are no replacements of equivalent expertise to fill the void.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Hg
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
As for engineers becoming self employed consultants, that's partly due to poor careers planning in many employers- one you've got to a certain level in engineering, (say lead engineer) in my experince the only way to continue up the ladder (and keep getting more money) is to move into managment- either project management or line management. This doesn't appeal to a lot of people, so they move onto agency work to get the fat paypackets and remain doing technical work...my company has recently recognised this and is developing a specialist engineer career path where you can eventually become the global guru on a particular aspect of petroleum engineering, if you want to keep getting promotions and still remain in a technical field. Clearly part of the guru job description is running advanced training courses, writing manuals etc to pass on knowledge.
Also, in my field, the work pattern is moving away from large integrated oil companies to smaller oil companies, who will buy in their expertise from specialised engineering consultancies, and it is in the interest of these consultancies to make sure that the expertise of their senior staff is passed on the their junior staff, so that they can survive.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
I think the mean pay of Chartered Engineers indicates that there is over supply rather than a shortage. If one were to categorise different jobs based on salary only then Chartered Engineers would not be regarded as being in a professional occupation. If the Government wants to raise the quality of engineers in the UK it needs to introduce legislation to differentiate Chartered Engineers from jobs such as washing machine service engineers. Encouraging more people into the shrinking engineering industries will only drive down salaries and discourage the talented.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
It would be impossible for a government to legislate in favour of CEngs, rather it should be that employers make that differentiation (with the appropriate rewards) together with the Instituitions making the CEng something more meaningful and worthy, in a par with a doctorate perhaps, rather than given out for in recognition of low academic achievement with a certain number of years in work, as is often the case.
corus
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
I disagree that this would be impossible. Right now anyone with or without qualifications or experience can call themselves an engineer. For the general public and I think many politicians there is no obvious difference between a welder and a CEng. If the government wants the UK to be world class in engineering then it needs to raise the profile of the profession. One way of doing this would be to introduce legislation in favour of CEngs so that to improve the quality of output, tax incentives could be offered. There would then be a financial incentive for companies who are committed to employing CEng’s in order to produce world-class products for export. At the moment most large companies are at the mercy of shareholders who probably don’t know the difference between a welder and a CEng. Encouraging more people into engineering in the current state of the economy will only lower pay, discourage talented people from entering engineering and reduce quality/productivity.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
In answer to you earlier question about how skills should be passed down, the way it used to be done was by employing a staff large enough to be able to carry the experienced guys nearing the end of their career and younger engineers who were experienced enough to learn without needing to be led step by step who could learn from their elders.
Today's employers largely aren't interested in the long-term future of the industry, only in saving costs today. This is acheieved by reducing staff to the bare minimum, or by farming out the work to contractors. The policy saves costs in the short term, but creates a long term skills gap that will be very hard to fill. The problem is compounded by the number of non-engineers who are being placed into positions of influence, but who are ignorant of the problems that their policy is creating.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
As for engineers pay; I think that depends upon the branch or engineering you work in. I'm a Petroleum Engineer in the Upstream Oil & Gas industry. I'm staff on about £80,000 plus performance bonuses and rig bonuses and country allowances if I'm sent to a toilet of a country. So on my pay, I'm clearly as professional as a consultant surgeon or accountant!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
In the automotive industry you can also earn that kind of salary if you are on the board of Directors or you are a self- employed consultant. I’ve never heard of an engineer on staff earn nearly as much as that. I think I’m in the wrong industry!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
epoisses, Australian definitions of an expert:
1) Anyone from overseas
2) Any consultant
3) Ex as in has-been, spurt as in drip under pressure.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
The Drilling Superintendent on my current project is contract on about £620 a day and the Drilling Supervisor is also contract on about £580/day. I know one contract drilling enigineer who's on a grand a day, but that's the exception, and it is a residential position in western Siberia......
The average age in the upstream business is about 49 and there's a real crunch coming: too many redundancies every time the oil price drops below $15/bbl, graduates not wanting to enter what is seen as a politically incorrect, 'old economy' industry that's apparently only got a few more years to go before the oil runs out, so I guess rates can only go up, over the next 10-15 years.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
You are correct to a large degree. O&G is almost a closed club, even those of us who work in utility-level power engineering, and on a plant fuelled by natural gas at that.
Even though myself and many colleagues have directly transferrable skills from similar hazardous industries, it is not easy to get the first O&G position.
I would happily enter the field, and to hell with the tree-huggers and anyone else who thinks I'm joining a "what is seen as a politically incorrect, 'old economy' industry that's apparently only got a few more years to go".
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
However, I certainly had problems getting in, and a stack of rejection letters (I don't really hold grudges...): after retraining I lost one job as I was both a "graduate trainee" and a chartered engineer, which didn't compute and HR didn't know what to pay me....I offered to keep quiet about the CEng and only be a gratuate trainee, but they gave the job to a 22 year old you didn't give HR any problems.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
By type of employer, the five groups of M.E.s with the highest median incomes are:
Consultants (independent) - $105,000
Petroleum/Coal/Natural Gas (extraction & refining) - $101,250 Computers & Allied Products - $94,550 Drugs & Medicine - $94,500 Utilities-Electric - $94,000
The five groups of M.E.s with the lowest median incomes by type of employer are:
Government-State - $62,000
Heating/Air Conditioning/Refrigeration Products - $63,300
Wood and Wood Products - $63,810
Transportation Services - $64,750
Merchandising - $64,907
Median income in the many remaining types of employer studied ranged from $93,100 down to $65,000.
By primary job function, the group of M.E.s who are highest-paid are in General or Corporate Management ($123,500), followed by those in:
Consulting - $94,750
Basic R&D - $86,400
Education - $86,000
Systems Design - $85,000
The lowest median income by primary job function is that earned by those in Production/Processing/Manufacturing Engineering ($74,000), preceded by those in:
Operations & Maintenance - $84,423
Testing/Reliability Assurance/Quality Control/Standards -$75,000 Product Design - $75,000 Equipment Design - $79,400
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
BobPE
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
never has been
isn't now
won't ever be
shortage of willingness to pay for the skills --- LOADS!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
The practical goal of pursuing diversity for the simple sake of diversity ultimately leads to intolerance of conformity, when the ideal goal should be a meritocracy that is simply blind to gender or race. We made a big mistake in the US with some of our SBA initiatives, like giving discriminatory favor to woman- and minority-owned businesses. At best this creates a landscape where the businesses are being run by the same old boys, smart enough to find a token person with the correct skin color or gender to sit in the front office. At worst, high bidders with inferior abilities are winning contracts over qualified, lower bidders.
Would it make sense to lay off most of the old white guys simply to force cultural diversity? I'm afraid it does as far as too many of these politicians are concerned.
BTW, thanks sms for the informative survey results... I'm currently in Alaska and there's plenty going on up here in certain markets, and the weather's not THAT bad as long as you mostly stay off the northern slope.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Paul.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
As to the professional organizations screaming about the "wage shortage", don't hold your breath. Dunn where you're from or what your engineering societies are like there, but here in Canada the engineering societies are dominated by consulting engineers, usually senior enough to profit DIRECTLY from the oversupply situation. Some of them are altruists and truly care about the lot of the average engineer, but most aren't. If you're ever confused about an issue, follow the money and you'll discover a part of the motivation...
Until we engineers STOP putting people like this in charge of our professional bodies, nothing will change. Engineering will continue its slide from noble profession on par with medicine and law, to commodity service undifferentiated from the rest of the "technical services sector".
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
"people like this?" I can only imagine...and I think your tone towards your brothers and sisters in consulting is a sign of just how we engineers are to blame for the mess we are in. If I remember my 2003 salary survey here in the US, if it were not for consultants and those engineers that work for them, engineering would be a poverty profession. We constantly struggle with government and industry as consultants rates reflect adequate wages while the clients rates for engineers are not anywhere close. It is always a sore point during negotiating for fees.
I disagree that it is the professional societies responsibility for wages. The societies serve the engineer as a point of peer to peer communication and advocacy. Getting more money is no ones responsibility other than the individuals.
BobPE
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
In which case, "if it were not for consultants and those engineers that work for them, engineering would be a poverty profession" doesn't mean that anyone should be actually *grateful* to said consultants; it's all just simple microeconomics.
Groups have more power than individuals, and as was stated somewhere else the professional societies might have the ability to influence the perception of engineers' value, and therefore how much the individual could ask for. If those in a position to do so (those in charge of professional societies with PR budgets) make so much money that they don't see a problem, then the problem isn't going to be solved.
That said, I let my membership in my professional society lapse a couple of years ago. They just didn't feel relevant to me and my individual situation.
Hg
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Again, dunno what the situation is in the US, but I DO know what it is here in Ontario. According to our salary surveys, consulting engineering pays roughly 20% LESS than the going rate for engineers in manufacturing- regardless of product category. In my books that's HARDLY keeping people out of poverty...though surely those who have jobs are better off than the legions who do not...Is that what you meant?
Though we agree that the responsibility for an engineer's wages lie entirely with the engineers themselves, ultimately it's an issue of supply and demand- something our professional advocacy and licensure bodies BOTH must have something to say about if we're to ever improve the lot of the average engineer. Too often, the choice these days for an engineer is to take poor compensation as an engineer, or to leave the profession in search of better compensation levels. Unfortunately, that's just the way some of the people "running" our profession would like to keep it!
Most consultants are work-a-day engineers who are just trying to do a job and make a buck like anybody else. But these people by and large AREN'T the ones who volunteer and sit for election to the licensure and advocacy bodies in Canada. No- instead, their bosses and their bosses' bosses do. These "senior partners" and vice-presidents and CEOs are people who are compensated significantly in profit-sharing and in dividends arising from their ownership stake in the engineering consulting firms. These people profit DIRECTLY from low salaries and lousy working conditions for engineers arising from over-supply. And we ordinary engineers are IDIOTS because WE elect these people to the councils of our advocacy and regulatory bodies.
As I said, some of these people are altruists who ARE interested in the lot of the average engineer even when that runs contrary to their short-term financial interest, but most of them are NOT. Most of them actively lobby to saddle us with yet more responsibilities and costs of licensure while lobbying AGAINST anything which will affect their bottom line (i.e. like tougher enforcement against the non-licensed and non-engineers). These people even advocate AGAINST spreading the information we have at our disposal about the MASSIVE oversupply of engineers in our market!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
I am a consultant if it wasn't obvious from my post...LOL....I am not a member of any or the professional organizations..and probably never will...
I see the wisdom in your post and just wanted to state that I was not glorifying consultants....Some of the best rates around are offered by consultants and give other engineers a good bar to reach for. Not that the rates consultants offer are much to brag about that is...
I would agree with you that in normal situations, groups are empowered. But I think that the individual is the source on empowerment when it comes to engineering. I like to think of individuals in our profession as journeymen, where a standard level of service will be provided for all those that can pay for it. We goup together as we see fit, not as the end user sees fit. I think that is the big difference. Now that said, that is not where we are today...we are a comodity at the service of the end user, not a service available to the end use. People for the most part knock on the door of consultants, allowing them to ask a fee that more closely represents the value of the service. I think moltenmetal was saying that there is a disconnect between what the consultant gets and what the engineers working for the consultant gets....and that is where I was saying it is the individuals responsibility, as a consultant is nothing without the individual.
BobPE
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
"I disagree that it is the professional societies responsibility for wages."
Take a look at doctors and lawyers.
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Engineering is not a closed environment in the way that medicine or law are, and thus anyone can claim to be an engineer. Whether that is the fault of the professional body is a different matter. They are probably guilty of weak and ineffective lobbying of the government, but only the government can actually change the law so that (in the UK) only a Chartered Engineer may use the title 'engineer'. The professional bodies can't do it. Until there is a change in legislation - which I doubt I will live to see - employers have no reason to raise engineering salaries up to the level of the legal and medical professions.
The problem is compounded by the growing number of unqualified (ok, barely qualified) managers who do not see the benefit of employing a professional engineer for £40k when they can give a technician an engineer's title, pay him £30k, and get most of the benefits, most of the time.
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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING?
Some people have suggested that the situation in the UK is due to the way that engineering started as a self taught profession.