What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
(OP)
Guys what section of the codebook covers repairs and alterations of in-service vessels? I have looked all through Sec VIII and I can't find it anywhere. Thanks ! ! !
Thanks!
Pete





RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
No, the ASME Code stops when the U stamp goes on. After that you're in API 510 or NB-23 (NBIC) territory. If you are in California (Lake Elsinore?), you'll have to dredge up a copy of the 1992 edition of the NBIC to be, strictly speaking, legal. In that edition, you'll want to check out Appendix C-R on page 125. See also https://www.nationalboard.org/nationalboard/Defaul...
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
http://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/CommitteePages.c...
http://www.becht.com/Process%20Power/Credentials/A...
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
OK - can anybody give me a working definition of an alteration?
You wouldn't believe how much misinformation is out there on this topic...
THanks for your help ! ! !
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Well, the formal definition is in the NBIC. Basically, an alteration is any change to the pressure containing envelope of the vessel that isn't classified as a repair. Adding small nozzles or nozzles identical to existing ones are examples of repairs. Changing information on the U1 form would generally be an alteration. A change in dimensions, material, pressure, temperature (rerate/derate), etc, even if no physical work is done would be an alteration. A repair using physically identical parts but using new allowable stresses would be an alteration. For example, the old head fabricated in 1980 is 1" thick (new) SA516-70. It has corroded and is replaced with a 1" thick SA516-70 head. I have two choices: 1) call it a Repair (use the 1980 allowable stress) and keep the original CA, or 2) call it an Alteration (use the current allowable stress), and increase the CA on the head. I chose option 2. It buys us more time with the new head before it wears out and needs to be replaced.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Here is my situation; I'd like to hear your comments. My client has an idle vessel in his boneyard that he wants to return to service but in a different service from the one for which the vessel was originally built. Metallurgy, MAWP, etc., all is OK for the new service. The vessel has some internals consisting of pipe downcomers and risers, and partitions and weirs made from plate and expanded metal. The new service requires no internals so the client wants to remove them all by cutting them all out and grinding the attachment welds smooth.
I say this is not an alteration because (1) these changes have no affect on any pressure-containing part; (2) these changes do not affect any of the information on the original U-1A. What do you think? Thanks ! ! !
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Funny, I was poking around our boneyard about an hour ago and in passing admired a few of the vessels and exchangers we have there. A sorry lot, indeed.
In your case, assuming a VIII Div. 1 vessel, I fully agree with your interpretation for both of your reasons. Just be sure to not grind into the shell. You might suggest that your client consider cutting the internals back to about 1/4" away from the shell to avoid inadverdent gouging of the shell. If you have a Div. 2 vessel, some additional pondering might be in order.
After a thorough inspection, internal and external (with insulation removed to check for CUI), the vessel should be good for continued service. I'd strongly consider either a Code minimum hydrotest (not necessarily the shop hydro pressure) or some other water test ("service test") at MAWP or slightly higher.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Regarding your specific situation, I would call your local Jurisdiction to make them aware of this situation. If the vessel was idle that means it once was in service, and is registered with the National Board. To return a vessel to service, it will probably require a Jurisdictional inspection by a commissioned NB Inspector. They will make the call regarding specific inspection requirements and review of operating and maintenance logs prior to recommending an operating certificate. If you don't have a Jurisdiction, your insurer will determine specific inspection requirements and review of data prior to returning to service.
Questions like how the vessel was stored, operating and maintenance history will need to be addressed as a minimum.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
A couple of thoughts though:
1. It might happen that during the removal process someone gauges into the shell. That willl immediately change the operation into repair. You have to be prepared for that. Use special procedure like gouge away from shell and grind smooth or something similar. Have a WPS ready and a repair procedure to cover potential mishap and not to ba caught with your belt down when it happens. I find it easier to negotiate with the Jurisdiction if I have a plan ready.
2. You are using a vesel that was meant for another service. Does your new service require the same or, maybe, higher corrosion allowance? That could potentially require new vessel calculations and re-rating of the vessel that constitutes alteration.
3. Also operating temperatures: minimum and maximum, original and intended should be considered. You say metallurgy is ok so I assume you have already considered that.
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Second, I'd like to see chapter and verse where it states that a Jurisdiciton or an AI must be involved in this case. I don't believe it exists. The plant's regular inspection program (no AI's necesserely involved here) must satisfy itself that the vessel is fit for continued service. The plant's engineering staff or consultant must satisfy itself that the vessel is fit for the proposed new service. The corrosion allowance will not necessarily have to be changed. The corrosion rate may change with the new service, but that may simply mean that the vessel will reach its retirement thickness a bit earlier (unless derated for lower T/P to increase CA). That's up to the plant's engineering and metallurgist and inspection and management. No AI or jurisdictional involvemnt req'd.
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
<<Second, I'd like to see chapter and verse where it states that a Jurisdiction or an AI must be involved in this case. I don't believe it exists. The plant's regular inspection program (no AI's necessarily involved here) must satisfy itself that the vessel is fit for continued service. The plant's engineering staff or consultant must satisfy itself that the vessel is fit for the proposed new service.>>
Have you dealt with Jurisdictions? From your response above it does not sound like you have dealt with any. The bottom line is that the NBIC mentions in many places that the Jurisdiction or Jurisdictional Authority takes precedence over the NBIC. As far as I am aware, any Jurisdiction in the US that regulates boilers AND pressure vessels typically issues operating certificates under their own set of rules and regulations. Thus, you need to have the Jurisdiction on board and in agreement with placing a vessel back in service. Those are the rules to live by -plain and simple.
The only exception to this is if the vessel is on Federal property or under an owner-user program. If this vessel is under an owner-user inspection program, I will bet that the Inspector ( a National Board commissioned) will follow the advice of the NBIC (see Section RB) in addition to reviewing previous operating history, operational and maintenance logs and will provide additional supplemental requirements, period.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
I suggest you contact CALIFORNIA DOSH ion anaheim CA.
ask for the Authorized field inspector,
R stamp is needed for repairs and alt.
ASME and Natl Bd are like Brothers, they do not ge along well thou.
ER
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Hmmm... I'm on a first name basis with the Chief Inspector in my state, two state AI's, and one AIA AI... Deal with the Jurisdiction several times a year, usually with regards to difficult or unusual situations or more routine repairs/rerates/alterations. Usually find that we can reach an agreement on our issues, sometimes after a vigorous discussion quoting chapters and verses of the Code. I guess we just have different experiences with our Jurisdictions.
generalblr-
Been there, done that. But the California Department of Industrial Relations, Divison of Occupational Safety and Health, Pressure Vessel Unit's Anaheim office, adjacent to Anaheim Stadium and the Amtrak station (unless they've moved) is just the So. Cal. branch office. Since I don't live 5 miles away from there anymore, I tend to deal with the head office in Oakland. As for designs for a specific service, that's why I mentioned that a Div. 2 vessel would require additional effort. Service (other than lethal) does not enter into Div. 1 code work, though it should be considered in the design and evaluation for re-use - but by the owner's engineer or consultant, not the AI.
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
From your post, I see that you understand how to deal with a Chief Inspector and Jurisdictional issues. My only point to my responses above is that not all companies or personnel have these types of close relationships. Oh by the way, I am an NBIC main committee member, and I also know about half of the Jurisdictional Chiefs in the US. Relationships are everything in this business.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
We have an internal inspection group that does all of the vessel inspections for the site. We have the AI involved in about 80% of the inspections by either by participating or review. We are an owner-user and have an U and R stamp which requires our fab shop to have the AI involved. We have all this in a non-code state that only requires operating permits for fuel storage tanks.
During my whole career we always worked with our AI though we accepted different AI's inspection, specific vendor requirements, for outside vendors on new equipment and offsite repairs. This work is reviewed by our AI.
In the US you had better have an AI involved, as well as all the paperwork you can muster, if there is ever an event with the subject vessel.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
What is there in Okland that we do not have here,
the only difference is that they have 2 sections the inspection agency and the chief's office!
Believe me I know.
If you want something done in So.Cal, deal you deal with in here.
You may be surprised that a lot of the desitions are made here in the South!
And there are no too frienly AIs in the inspection business, they are tough.(job security)'don't blame them.
I just hope that no one is cough alterating a vessel w/o their authorization.
ER
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
We do not approve anything,only accept. Our job is to make sure that everyone complies with requirements. It is really about SAFETY,SAFETY,SAFETY.
See Rules for Commissioned Inspectors NB-263 at http://www.nationalboard.org
Keep yourself out of trouble-maybe save lives or property. If one must pay anyway-use it.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
jte - do you know if the AI's are split by region or?? And is the AI a state employee or an employee of Hartford etc.? I am up in Bakersfield. Thanks - Pete
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
The AI works for an authorized AIA, can be the State or an Insurance Co,
If you have the R stamp or work with one you the stamp holder must know who to call,
The National Board Inspection Code can give you all details of inspection responsibilities,
ER
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
What is in Oakland but not in Anaheim is the boss. I'd rather go straight to the top than agree on a path forward with another only to have that path changed en route. Further, he is arguably the most knowlegable in the PVU and thus the best resource for consultations. And I fully agree with you on the unauthorized alterations (or repairs) issue. My point with 74Elsinore is that what he is proposing is not an alteration.
deanc-
I agree, by all means, use the AI as a resource. However, I stand on my position that an AI is not required in 74Elsinore's case. Optional vs required can be a big deal. Much depends on the facility's ability to evaluate the current condition of the vessel. I happen to work at a facility which has the necessary resources (personnel and equipment). Believe me, safety drives our decision making. If someone working in the plant gets hurt or killed because of a mistake I make, it will be me going to the hospital to visit them. Not the AI. I know the folks in the plant; the AI doesn't. The safety of our plant is personal to me; it is business to an AIA.
74Elsinore-
To be honest, I don't know where the boundary is drawn to distinguish the Anaheim from the Oakland office's territory. They do work together on technical issues, but you'll have to call one of the offices to determine which PVU AI covers Bakersfield. I suspect Anaheim. Their contact info is at http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/pressure.html
As a preferred alternative, though, use the AIA which insures the facility. As mentioned in a previous post, this may govern. At our facility, we generally consult with the State (their approval req'd for rerates, but not all alterations) but the choice of whether to use the State or an AIA inspector is left to the (qualified) contractor who is performing the work.
Bottom line: Consulting with an AI is good practice, but in this case, as a courtesy not a requirement. As metenger noted, it is best to establish and nourish the relationship between the owner/engineer and their AI and/or State.
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
I just realized I screwed up big time in that I forgot to mention one very small issue... dddduuuuhhhh!!!!
We will be rerating the vessel for full vacuum service. I have not done the calcs but I am sure it will need stiffening rings. So an alteration is in order.
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Yup, adding FV would be an alteration regardless of whether or not it requires physical modifications to the vessel. This requires prior approval from the State (in California, others may vary). You may use either the State or an AIA provided AI to oversee the work and approve the installation of the nameplate.
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
In-service inspection, repair and alteration of pressure retaining items is under the National Board Inspection Code and will always be, because the Jurisdictions have adopted and endorsed this code. Locations with no Jurisdictions can do whatever they please.
The ASME post construction standards are guidelines. Unless the NBIC or the Jurisdiction adopts these guidelines and makes them mandatory, they will only be considered as an option for use! I can say from my dealings with Jurisdictional chiefs that unless the NBIC endorses the ASME post construction repair guidelines, they will remain as guidelines!
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
aybee,
But as I know, the ASME is working in recommendations and not Codes for inservice maintenance, repairs and alt. of boilers and PV.
ER
jte, so you moved from CA, which State?
ER
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
I moved from Southern California to Northern California. It is, in many ways, a different state!
I'm curious about your source of info on the post-construction activities committee. Take a look at my links on my Oct 27 post. The Becht link especially seems to contradict your above post (assuming by "inservice" you mean "after the equipment has been placed into service" and not "while the equipment is operating"). The first paragraph is:
"ASME has created a new Main Committee, the Post Construction Main Committee, to prepare codes and standards for pressure equipment that has been in service. These standards are intended to cover the pressure equipment which is covered by the ASME Pressure Technology Codes and Standards for new equipment, such as piping, vessels and boilers. Two subcommittees have been created under Main Committee, which are working on creating two new books. These are Flaw Evaluation and Inspection Planning."
The BPVC Committee will be meeting in San Francisco in mid December. The meetings are open to the public; I'll attend at least a day to see what's going on. Perhaps I'll get some more info then.
jt
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
Be very careful with using these "box" or "sleeved repairs" on high energy piping (HEP) systems. These fixes are fine for low pressure and temperature components provided you fully understand the cause of the leakage - like valve packing leaks or steam leakage at a gasket.
For HEP systems these fixes must be carefully evaluated. First and foremost, you need to determine the location and specific cause of the steam leakage (girth weld, welded fitting or seam weld). Steam leakage at or adjacent to welds or fittings could be an indicator of creep or creep/fatigue damage that can result in catastrophic failure or rupture. I would not recommend these types of repairs to HEP systems.
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
I'm not up to speed on all the AI, NBIC, ASME VIII stuff... given that I'm an engineer in a major hazards facility in the state of Victoria down in Australia - and we have a very diffent PV regime... but surely the answer to the original question at the top of the thread lies in API510 "PV inspection, rating, maintenance and repair"?
By the way, this has been one of the most elucidating threads I've ever read at eng tips.
Cheers
Rob
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?
"By the way, this has been one of the most elucidating threads I've ever read at eng tips."
Well Rob it just goes to show ya there's no such thing as a dumb question!
Thanks!
Pete
RE: What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations?