electric door locks and water
electric door locks and water
(OP)
Sad, tragic story
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/10/25/nj.suv.drowni...
What are the facts about the operation of electric door locks in river water?
A friend says electric locks will not work when submerged.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/10/25/nj.suv.drowni...
What are the facts about the operation of electric door locks in river water?
A friend says electric locks will not work when submerged.





RE: electric door locks and water
RE: electric door locks and water
RE: electric door locks and water
Of course, try getting the electric windows to work. Still, open vents should let water in and eventually equalize pressure. The real trick is holding your breath in 10°C (40°F) water. The gasp reflex usually makes short work of people trapped in such situations.
RE: electric door locks and water
I don't know how the lives saved in rollovers vs lives lost by drowning pans out, but keeping people inside rolling cars is essential.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: electric door locks and water
I also imagine, that quite often, the pressure difference will be reduced to the point that a door can open, while there is still an air pocket inside, however whether that pocket is accessible to the occupants while waiting to open a door or window is another question.
I have never really experienced near freezing water, so I can't comment on it's effects.
Disorientation I am sure can be a real issue, especially at night. I know from some falls from water skis, I have found myself disoriented enough to be swimming toward the bottom until I realised the bubbles were going the other way, and I was going nowhere because of the buoyancy in the wet suit or jacket.
Re child proof locks, I am sure they are necessary in some cases, as enough discipline to avoid problems cannot be universally relied on.
The real question of more concern is do electric windows work, at least in fresh water.
Salt water I would presume would quickly dead short the battery as the car would sink engine end first, quickly flooding the engine compartment
Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: electric door locks and water
My own limited experience is with small boats going down in fresh water. The electrical accessories will work for quite a while. Lights for hours; motors until the commutators get fouled by grease. The water eventually becomes conductive as the battery acid diffuses, but that takes a while. Makes a mess of switches and exposed terminations, but not right away.
Some idiot conducting a 'safe driver' course suggested not even _trying_ electric door locks or electric windows on submergence, because they'd be instantly 'shorted out' by the water. Which is just ridiculous on its face, but I didn't want to spend another hour arguing.
I can make a case for trying to get out through the windows before the car goes down or as it descends. A while ago, PBS aired an experiment conducted in Minnesota about what happens when a car goes through the ice. The experimenters had not predicted that the car would tumble, and end up on its roof in several feet of bottom mud. The diver who went down in the car nearly ran out of air before they got a cable on the car and pulled it out.
Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
RE: electric door locks and water
Blacksmith
RE: electric door locks and water
As a teen I broke through the ice on a frozen pond near my house once. I actually don't recall much discomfort. A friend went in with me, and he panicked briefly, but I was able to get his attention quickly enough and we worked together to get ourselves close to shore by breaking through the ice repeatedly. Eventually someone threw us a garden hose and pulled us out. I do remember that there was quite a bit of blood coming from my forearms after we got out, due to scratches sustained while breaking through the ice to get to shore (I guess). My arms certainly didn't hurt until we started warming up, and then it was just the "pinching" feeling of heating up when you're really cold.
RE: electric door locks and water
RE: electric door locks and water
There is no explanation for panic, IMO---To those of us who have never had a personal situation resulting in total panic it is difficult to understand. I helped pull a race car driver from a burning race car and I can attest to the pure panic and total immobility of that 50+ year old driver! I had to reach in and undo his safety harness because he was "frozen". I still see his eyes looking at me.
Rod
RE: electric door locks and water
Now, having said this, yes the electronic devices can fail, but it is more the fact that the driver and/or passengers in the vehicle exhaust all energy trying to unsuccessfully open the doors or break the window glass. The water pressure must be equalized for this to easily happen, at which time the occupants panic and fail in their attempts.
Sad as it may be, more people are killed by someone eating fast food than talking on a cell phone and submerged under water. Yet we all hear about what the government is going to do about cell phone use and driving.
O.K off my high horse, but you get the point.
BJ
Brandon Jacobsen
Product Design Engineer - Catia
RE: electric door locks and water
Gasping from cold water is less likely to occur if the water level raises somewhat slowly compared to diving in head first. I think most deaths by sinking in a car are a result of unconciousness or panic.
RE: electric door locks and water
RE: electric door locks and water
For sure my faithful-but-terribly-rusted Peugot's doors popped open on big bumps, locked or not.
In the 80s Volvo was advocating driving their cars with un-locked doors to help emergency extication efforts. Made sense when I read it. So when riding in a car with the auto lock feature I UNLOCK mine them after exceeding 7 mph.
RE: electric door locks and water
Mercedes Benz must also advocate leaving the doors unlocked. My wife's 400E locks and unlocks the doors when the key is used in the drivers door. While there are manual buttons at the rear of each door, there is no button in convenient reach of the driver or passenger to lock the doors. This forces you to drive with the doors unlocked unless you reach over your shoulder to lock the doors and of course to unlock them when you want to get out. I always figured this was done to force you to leave the doors unlocked while driving.
Timelord
RE: electric door locks and water
I now live in a rural area but I still lock the doors when driving---you must try driving through South Central Los Angeles, Willowbrook , Compton or Gardena California at 2 AM to understand how we arrived at the habit!
We lived in Hawthorn for a while in the 60's and most of the people there were hard working, friendly people but, it only takes a couple of rotton apples...!
Rod
RE: electric door locks and water
TTFN
RE: electric door locks and water
1) Panic is so great, most people drown cuz they forget their seatbelts are on and can't get out when they try. I realize this may sound ridiculous, but if you're panicking, who knows.
2) The best advice by far; carry a new and sharp spring loaded hole punch/hole starter. Pressing this against a side window shatters it fully and you can escape. Maybe wait till the car is almost full of water though. I keep one in our van in the ash tray (so I know where it is). You only need to use it once to make it all worth it.
3) Then there's the obvious about waiting till the waters fills up in the car, then opening the door and swimming out, etc. etc.
RE: electric door locks and water
Not all the things we were taught in helicopter ditching training are relevant to this - but some of them probably are.
So far as I can remember (and it was a while back now), the key elements were:
Try to jettison the escape hatches before you go into the water - It's easier than doing it later (probably less relevant in this scenario)
Before impact, point one hand towards the exit, and cling on with it to the nearest bit of structure (Rolling around in the blind and dark, it's hard to believe that the cabin is rolling with you, and easy to believe that "out" is now the other way). Cling onto the harness release with the other hand.
Wait until all the major motion has stopped - stay strapped in and clinging on.
When the water has almost reached your face, take a breath, then put your face into the water on purpose - this overcomes the gasp reflex.
Once the water has stopped coming in, undo the harness, pull all the straps clear of you, then follow your other hand to the exit.
I've done it a few times in practice - never (thank you!) for real. Oddly, it always seemed easier in the dark.
A.
RE: electric door locks and water
My grandfather was killed when the toolbox in the back of his truck shifted on a bridge arround a corner (yes they exist) on one of the rural highways near the oregon coast. They found him because of the tools scattered on the road and the pickup settled headlights up. they were able to find the truck fully submerged because the lights were still on. Normal fresh water won't flow much current with only a 12v differential.
As I recall it takes a few minutes for a car to sink. The instructions I was told is roll down the window as soon as possible, if you do this before you are submerged beyond the doors it will have no effect on the rate at whitch you sink, and you can climb out the window even possibly before you are fully submerged.
last if you happen to be driving a few types of cars (without rust holes) you will just float anyway.
RE: electric door locks and water
The truth is without the rehearsal of what I would need to do just prior to sinking the truck, I would be dead. It is hard to describe the disorientation experienced at night and having to accept that the door would not open. Once submerged in water, I doubt that it would be possible to locate the hole in the ice even if I did manage to get out of the truck. I estimate that it took less than a minute for the truck to sink. A minute seems like a long time; however, it is not very long to make decisions when you are disorientated unless you have practiced.
RE: electric door locks and water
As a race car driving instructor in the 80's I tried a little experiment with a group of students that were having problems driving the right lines. I took them out and drove the course several times on the correct lines and then, in the paddock, we all mentally drove the course for about thirty minutes. What an amazing transformation! After that I made this practice a regular part of my instruction. It always worked. Now when I go to a new track I talk someone familiar with the track or I go out in the first session and just find the lines then back to the pits to sit and 'get mental'. Yes it still works, even after 46 years of racing.
Rod
RE: electric door locks and water
I am at a loss for words.
Rod
RE: electric door locks and water